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Is there any form of Government HealthCare you could get behind? - Page 8

Poll Results: What would you Consider an acceptable reform of Health Care?

 
  • 60% (15)
    Full Gov't health care with public option
  • 0% (0)
    Full Gov't health care no public option
  • 4% (1)
    Gov't care only for low income who cannot afford their own plan
  • 0% (0)
    A gov't instituted health exchange or Co-op.
  • 4% (1)
    Gov't vouchers or tax breaks to constituents for purchase of health insurance.
  • 12% (3)
    One of the above with tort reform and follow through on medicare savings.
  • 4% (1)
    Legislation on Tort reform and follow through on medicare savings only.
  • 16% (4)
    Close it all down for Gov't involvment and let the free market work.
  • 0% (0)
    Leave it alone, things are fine as is.
  • 0% (0)
    My option is not up here! (Please explain.)
25 Total Votes  
post #281 of 383
11/21/09 at 6:45pm
Thread Starter 
Health care bill clears first Senate hurdle http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_16026/cont...tguid=4tDxjByb
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #282 of 383
11/22/09 at 4:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Health care bill clears first Senate hurdle http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_16026/cont...tguid=4tDxjByb

It would seem to me that this is all but in the can now. Repubs are going to have to drop that "NO Hope and NO Change" they like to scribble on internet websites. It's quite something that a black president will almost definitely sign this into law, providing nearly every American with health care. I wonder how many States and for how long, will be able to deny their citizens the Public Option and how many will lose their seats to Dems as a result? I think this may well weed out all but the most staunch repub States. Harry Reid is a genius!!!!

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #283 of 383
11/22/09 at 9:37am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It would seem to me that this is all but in the can now. Repubs are going to have to drop that "NO Hope and NO Change" they like to scribble on internet websites. It's quite something that a black president will almost definitely sign this into law, providing nearly every American with health care. I wander how many States and for how long, will be able to deny their citizens the Public Option and how many will lose their seats to Dems as a result? I think this may well weed out all but the most staunch repub States. Harry Reid is a genius!!!!

I really hope that provision for faith healing was cut out of the senate bill. So fucking dumb.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #284 of 383
11/22/09 at 10:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Still you miss my point. Why do we need insurance to begin with? The problem is not the insurance, but the NEED for it. If healthcare is a right, why would someone need insurance to get it? Anything that costs so much you cannot afford it is not a right, it is a want or a luxury. The framing of the debate I keep seeing is that insurance companies are trying to deprive us of our right to healthcare. They ae the boogeymen who should be punished for profiting off our misfortunes.

The obvious answer is that a week in the hospital can easily cost $100k and treatment for a chronic disease, hundreds of thousands. And you lower those costs to what, and how, exactly? And you pay these costs for the uninsured who need these services, how exactly?

The second answer is that if you walk (or are carried) into a hospital without insurance, the bill to you as an individual will be two or three times higher than the hospital would accept from an insurance company as payment for the exact same services. So what do those services actually cost? People who know a lot more about this than you or I can't make any sense of this utterly bizarre system.

I have never claimed that healthcare is a "right." I just think the current system is wasteful, inefficient, unfair, and is eating our economy alive. Good enough reasons to seek changes to it, I'd have thought. Maybe not for everyone.

No matter. You completely undermined any defense from the charge that you don't really care when you described healthcare as a "luxury." Not sure why it took so long for you to admit that you believe that some people deserve healthcare and others don't. As I've said so many times, I think we need to have an honest debate about healthcare. I think the outcome would be vastly different if more of the opponents to reform confessed to what they really believe.
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post #285 of 383
11/22/09 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I really hope that provision for faith healing was cut out of the senate bill. So fucking dumb.

It's discriminatory. I think it should apply to all kinds of alternative healing.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #286 of 383
11/22/09 at 7:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

The obvious answer is that a week in the hospital can easily cost $100k and treatment for a chronic disease, hundreds of thousands. And you lower those costs to what, and how, exactly? And you pay these costs for the uninsured who need these services, how exactly?

Ask the doctors and owners of the hospital. They are the ones that set the costs.

Quote:
The second answer is that if you walk (or are carried) into a hospital without insurance, the bill to you as an individual will be two or three times higher than the hospital would accept from an insurance company as payment for the exact same services. So what do those services actually cost? People who know a lot more about this than you or I can't make any sense of this utterly bizarre system.

And that makes it ok how? Who sets the costs again?

Quote:
I have never claimed that healthcare is a "right." I just think the current system is wasteful, inefficient, unfair, and is eating our economy alive. Good enough reasons to seek changes to it, I'd have thought. Maybe not for everyone.

Perhaps you have not, but there are many others in this thread who have. I agree there are changes needed, but I don't necessarily agree with the methods moving forward at this time.

Quote:
No matter. You completely undermined any defense from the charge that you don't really care when you described healthcare as a "luxury." Not sure why it took so long for you to admit that you believe that some people deserve healthcare and others don't. As I've said so many times, I think we need to have an honest debate about healthcare. I think the outcome would be vastly different if more of the opponents to reform confessed to what they really believe.

You can read into it whatever you like but that was not the message. The message was, healthcare is not a right, and a good piece of evidence is the cost of healthcare. I stated very clearly that it is a need or even at times a want. Some portions of healthcare are a need, and then there are the wants as well. I then went on to state that things that cost too much are either a want or a luxury. Spin it however you wish, it does not change the fact that you are spinning it into a falsehood.

The issue this always comes back to is the cost. Going back to the first quote in this post, why are those cost so high? How much of that is building cost, how much is fancy equipment, how much is doctors salary, and how much is pure profit? Ever looked at a hospital bill? What do they charge you for an aspirin? (Hint, it is much more than the pills cost.) The hospitals and the doctors set the rates, the insurance companies have found ways to bring those costs down for themselves, likely because they have collective bargaining strength through the sheer number of patients they represent.

Root issues, stop trying to deflect the issue to me, or anyone else that does not set the costs.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #287 of 383
11/22/09 at 7:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

It's discriminatory. I think it should apply to all kinds of alternative healing.

Do people actually PAY for faith healing?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #288 of 383
11/22/09 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

I really hope that provision for faith healing was cut out of the senate bill.

I hadn't heard about this until you raised the issue.
None of the major Christian news sites I follow seem to have either.

I am amazed something like that could get in, and a ban on abortion coverage didn't.

The U.S. Senate lives in some kind of parallel universe.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #289 of 383
11/22/09 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

You can read into it whatever you like but that was not the message. The message was, healthcare is not a right, and a good piece of evidence is the cost of healthcare. I stated very clearly that it is a need or even at times a want. Some portions of healthcare are a need, and then there are the wants as well. I then went on to state that things that cost too much are either a want or a luxury. Spin it however you wish, it does not change the fact that you are spinning it into a falsehood.

The issue this always comes back to is the cost. Going back to the first quote in this post, why are those cost so high? How much of that is building cost, how much is fancy equipment, how much is doctors salary, and how much is pure profit? Ever looked at a hospital bill? What do they charge you for an aspirin? (Hint, it is much more than the pills cost.) The hospitals and the doctors set the rates, the insurance companies have found ways to bring those costs down for themselves, likely because they have collective bargaining strength through the sheer number of patients they represent.

Root issues, stop trying to deflect the issue to me, or anyone else that does not set the costs.

Yes, cost is one of the big issues -- but what are you going to do to control costs? Are you going to legislate doctor's pay? Are you going to command hospitals to charge less? Are you going to demand that people don't get certain treatments? Are you going to prohibit the use or perhaps even the invention of expensive treatments? What?

Of course, you'd do none of those things, since they are far more radical than anything currently being proposed.

And access is the other big issue. I don't see you proposing anything connected to that problem.
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post #290 of 383
11/22/09 at 9:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I am amazed something like that could get in, and a ban on abortion coverage didn't.

Really? You honestly can't see the obvious difference?

One is giving you an additional choice (albeit a bad one). The other is taking a choice away (that some others might call bad). It doesn't take a genius to see that a bleeding-heart Liberal could accept one but not the other.

But to you it's just, "This is a Christian demand, and so is that!" without any deeper thought put into it.

I don't know why I'm still surprised by right-wing blinders that make some people unable see things from any perspective but their own.
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post #291 of 383
11/23/09 at 12:53am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I hadn't heard about this until you raised the issue.
None of the major Christian news sites I follow seem to have either.

I am amazed something like that could get in, and a ban on abortion coverage didn't.

The U.S. Senate lives in some kind of parallel universe.

Supporting faith healing is entirely irresponsible. When a doctor can cure a child's disease and the parents refuse to take the kid to one out of some sort of ridiculous religious belief, it's criminal.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #292 of 383
11/23/09 at 12:55am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Do people actually PAY for faith healing?

Yup. They certainly do. First link that popped up in a quick google search meshes with what I already know about the topic:

http://toughquestionsblog.com/?p=200

Here's another article about it:

http://www.pittnews.com/article/2009...l-restrictions

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #293 of 383
11/23/09 at 7:37am
This is one thing we should all appreciate about government-run healthcare...healthcare options become politicized!
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post #294 of 383
11/23/09 at 7:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yup. They certainly do. First link that popped up in a quick google search meshes with what I already know about the topic:

http://toughquestionsblog.com/?p=200

Here's another article about it:

http://www.pittnews.com/article/2009...l-restrictions

Anyone who would sell those services is most likely a phony or fraud. That is disgusting.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #295 of 383
11/23/09 at 8:04am
Put into the bills at the behest of the Christian Science church, so we know.

http://www.latimes.com/features/heal...,2239900.story
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post #296 of 383
11/23/09 at 8:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Supporting faith healing is entirely irresponsible. When a doctor can cure a child's disease and the parents refuse to take the kid to one out of some sort of ridiculous religious belief, it's criminal.

Very interesting when juxtaposed next to your sig:
YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO LIFE (AND TO END IT WHEN YOU PLEASE)!
JOIN THE PRO-DEATH MOVEMENT!
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post #297 of 383
11/23/09 at 9:12am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Put into the bills at the behest of the Christian Science church, so we know.

http://www.latimes.com/features/heal...,2239900.story

One more reason not to vote for this bill. Faith healing, is not due to the power of the individual and does not happen because of something special the "healer" has done. To charge for that is the height of arrogance.

And that is at best, assuming that the faith healer is even effective...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #298 of 383
11/23/09 at 9:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

One more reason not to vote for this bill.

Really, as if you needed another rationale for being against it. Laws and sausages -- you really don't want to watch either one being made.

If a clear majority of Congress was in favor of health care reform, we wouldn't see so much special interest nonsense included in the bill. Unfortunately, one party is completely against making any significant changes, so that gives individual legislators within the majority a lot of leverage. It also gives the opposition more ammunition to oppose any bill that comes along, so another victory for the power of no.
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post #299 of 383
11/23/09 at 10:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Really, as if you needed another rationale for being against it. Laws and sausages -- you really don't want to watch either one being made.

If a clear majority of Congress was in favor of health care reform, we wouldn't see so much special interest nonsense included in the bill. Unfortunately, one party is completely against making any significant changes, so that gives individual legislators within the majority a lot of leverage. It also gives the opposition more ammunition to oppose any bill that comes along, so another victory for the power of no.

What kind of doctor are you? Do you understand the healthcare industry?
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post #300 of 383
11/23/09 at 1:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Really, as if you needed another rationale for being against it. Laws and sausages -- you really don't want to watch either one being made.

If a clear majority of Congress was in favor of health care reform, we wouldn't see so much special interest nonsense included in the bill. Unfortunately, one party is completely against making any significant changes, so that gives individual legislators within the majority a lot of leverage. It also gives the opposition more ammunition to oppose any bill that comes along, so another victory for the power of no.

For your first point, no, one good reason is enough. This is just another to add to a growing list. Watched sausage being made before. Nothing too scary there. Some laws however...

If a clear majority of congress supported health care reform, I would like to believe there would be much about the bill being passed that would be acceptable to more people. That is clearly not the case up to this point.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #301 of 383
11/23/09 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

What kind of doctor are you? Do you understand the healthcare industry?

I'm trying to understand what you are asking. Perhaps you could restate the question, assuming it was a question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

For your first point, no, one good reason is enough. This is just another to add to a growing list. Watched sausage being made before. Nothing too scary there. Some laws however...

If a clear majority of congress supported health care reform, I would like to believe there would be much about the bill being passed that would be acceptable to more people. That is clearly not the case up to this point.

No, not true. This is politics. The minority is trying to hand the majority a defeat -- this is their top priority. The Republicans proposed their own "reform" bill that, according CBO analysis, does virtually nothing to improve access to healthcare and very little to reduce costs. It wouldn't even do as much to lower the federal deficit as the bills on the floor now. So even if the minority had their druthers, then they would still do nothing -- which coincidentally is exactly what they did when they were in charge.
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post #302 of 383
11/23/09 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I'm trying to understand what you are asking. Perhaps you could restate the question, assuming it was a question.
.

Are you a doctor? Your name suggests that you are. How hard a question is that to understand?

Do you understand the healthcare industry? Most don't.
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post #303 of 383
11/23/09 at 3:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

No, not true. This is politics. The minority is trying to hand the majority a defeat -- this is their top priority. The Republicans proposed their own "reform" bill that, according CBO analysis, does virtually nothing to improve access to healthcare and very little to reduce costs. It wouldn't even do as much to lower the federal deficit as the bills on the floor now. So even if the minority had their druthers, then they would still do nothing -- which coincidentally is exactly what they did when they were in charge.

You are making one assumption for this entire response. The bill, as is, will do what they claim it will. Lower deficits, fix medicare, health care for all for less than it costs now. I apologise now for not believing that. I have not read the republican bills as they are not up for debate anywhere. If they get traction, perhaps I can spend some time determining if they are worth the paper they are printed on as well.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #304 of 383
11/23/09 at 3:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Are you a doctor? Your name suggests that you are. How hard a question is that to understand?

Do you understand the healthcare industry? Most don't.

Sigh. Rhetorical questions aren't real questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

You are making one assumption for this entire response. The bill, as is, will do what they claim it will. Lower deficits, fix medicare, health care for all for less than it costs now. I apologise now for not believing that. I have not read the republican bills as they are not up for debate anywhere. If they get traction, perhaps I can spend some time determining if they are worth the paper they are printed on as well.

Not sure what you mean. I've never claimed that the bills under consideration do everything. In fact, I've said they are at best half measures, which is about all we can expect in the current political climate.

You ought to read the Republican bill, or better yet, the CBO analysis. It leaves more people uninsured after ten years than are without coverage today. Even some Republicans have said that their party missed an opportunity to show that they care about basic healthcare issues. As I've said so many times already, stating basic principles is the way to begin this debate.
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post #305 of 383
11/23/09 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Sigh. Rhetorical questions aren't real questions.
.

Its hard to engage you in debate when I don't understand your perspective. If you don't want to answer the question, that's your choice but I can't make the question any simpler or clearer than I have.
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post #306 of 383
11/23/09 at 4:25pm
The editor of Newsweek gives perhaps the most concise bit of liberal reasoning I have ever read with regard to healthcare reform and the Senate.

Quote:
EVAN THOMAS: Charles is right. This bill is a fiscal fraud. I’d still vote for it, because I think it’s a good thing to extend benefits and start down the road to universal and — because of the health insurance. But we have to be — if we were honest about it, we would say that we have not dealt with the money piece of it, with the cost thing, that we’re going to have to deal with. We’re going to kick that down the road and have to deal with it later.

The shortened version.

It's a lie.
However it has a good intention.
Magic unicorns in the future will help us pay for it.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #307 of 383
11/23/09 at 4:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

The editor of Newsweek gives perhaps the most concise bit of liberal reasoning I have ever read with regard to healthcare reform and the Senate.



The shortened version.

It's a lie.
However it has a good intention.
Magic unicorns in the future will help us pay for it.

Actually you are seeing this with the other senators that gave in and voted yes as well.

Their sentiments are, lets have a dialogue and get this ball rolling, the bill will get better in debate and they will have stuff that I can vote for when they are done. Pretend all they want, it does not change the fact that they let a "bad bill" through too many gates.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #308 of 383
11/23/09 at 5:48pm
The bottom line in all of this is that no amount of good intention will overcome the reality we learn from economics. It's really that simple. Lawmakers, in their infinite hubris, assume that they merely need to "have the votes" and then they can wave the magic wand of legislation and all will be good with the world. Its just isn't so. We have ample historical evidence of this, but no one seems to learn. It's almost as ridiculous as if they wanted to try and pass (legislative) laws that pretend gravity doesn't work (e.g., it is now legal for people to step off the roofs of tall building!), and then get surprised when people start going "splat" on the sidewalks because they step off the roofs of tall buildings.

Good intentions cannot overcome economic reality. Period.

That's what they are trying to do. They will fail. It's only a question of degree and timeframe.
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post #309 of 383
11/23/09 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

The bottom line in all of this is that no amount of good intention will overcome the reality we learn from economics. It's really that simple. Lawmakers, in their infinite hubris, assume that they merely need to "have the votes" and then they can wave the magic wand of legislation and all will be good with the world. Its just isn't so. We have ample historical evidence of this, but no one seems to learn. It's almost as ridiculous as if they wanted to try and pass (legislative) laws that pretend gravity doesn't work (e.g., it is now legal for people to step off the roofs of tall building!), and then get surprised when people start going "splat" on the sidewalks because they step off the roofs of tall buildings.

Good intentions cannot overcome economic reality. Period.

That's what they are trying to do. They will fail. It's only a question of degree and timeframe.

But...but.....but..............good intentions and unicorns dude. UNICORNS! How can you hate unicorns by not wanting free health care for all?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #310 of 383
11/23/09 at 7:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Its hard to engage you in debate when I don't understand your perspective. If you don't want to answer the question, that's your choice but I can't make the question any simpler or clearer than I have.

My perspective is explained in great detail in many posts in this thread. Read back if you are really interested, instead of asking me to repeat myself.
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post #311 of 383
11/24/09 at 12:25am
  • BR
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Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Very interesting when juxtaposed next to your sig:
YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO LIFE (AND TO END IT WHEN YOU PLEASE)!
JOIN THE PRO-DEATH MOVEMENT!

Again, that's referring to assisted suicide and has nothing to do with what I said earlier. Comprehension failure.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #312 of 383
11/24/09 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Again, that's referring to assisted suicide and has nothing to do with what I said earlier. Comprehension failure.

Well it sure seems like you advocate an atheists right to refuse medical treatment but not Christians. Explain if not.
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post #313 of 383
11/24/09 at 1:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Well it sure seems like you advocate an atheists right to refuse medical treatment but not Christians. Explain if not.

Doctor assisted suicide is not a refusal of treatment. It's a conscious decision to take extra medication that will induce death. Faith healing isn't a refusal of treatment. It's a reckless practice that preys on the weak minded bilking them out of money and causing unnecessary death and injury to children who could easily be cured by doctors.

And doctor assisted suicide has nothing to do with Atheism. You're starting from a false premise and carry the false logic all the way through to the end.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #314 of 383
11/24/09 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Doctor assisted suicide is not a refusal of treatment. It's a conscious decision to take extra medication that will induce death. Faith healing isn't a refusal of treatment. It's a reckless practice that preys on the weak minded bilking them out of money and causing unnecessary death and injury to children who could easily be cured by doctors.

And doctor assisted suicide has nothing to do with Atheism. You're starting from a false premise and carry the false logic all the way through to the end.

If you advocate for a person's right to commit suicide why would you care if another chose an ineffective treatment that might result in death?

Personally I have no problem with either.
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post #315 of 383
11/24/09 at 6:36pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

If you advocate for a person's right to commit suicide why would you care if another chose an ineffective treatment that might result in death?

Personally I have no problem with either.

One is claiming to be healing. The other is not. There's quite a difference. I'm rather surprised you can't see that.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #316 of 383
11/24/09 at 6:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

One is claiming to be healing. The other is not. There's quite a difference. I'm rather surprised you can't see that.

Let's just get to the bottom of this.

You don't like the choices some people might make (e.g., "faith healing") and so you don't think it should be supported in the government-run health care system. That's all well and fine. For now.

But beware that this serves as a perfect example of how health care will become politicized once the government takes it over. Today it's something we can all mock and chuckle about ("faith healing") but tomorrow it's something you think is just fine but someone else doesn't.

In short, government-run health care will be the perfect vehicle for the hypocritical control-freaks of the world who don't seem to mind foisting their beliefs on others by limiting the choices and options they have, but will recoil in anger and disgust if anyone tried to do the same to them.

This is a sword that cuts both ways.

This is going to be a disaster.
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post #317 of 383
11/24/09 at 7:56pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Choosing faith healing over conventional treatments when caring for a minor is criminal neglect. We don't live in the dark ages anymore. If you want to go in for faith healing for yourself, fine, go ahead, but the government shouldn't legitimize it by paying for it.

And, the "arrrrgh slippery slope" scare tactics are just that.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #318 of 383
11/24/09 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Choosing faith healing over conventional treatments when caring for a minor is criminal neglect. We don't live in the dark ages anymore. If you want to go in for faith healing for yourself, fine, go ahead, but the government shouldn't legitimize it by paying for it.

And, the "arrrrgh slippery slope" scare tactics are just that.

That's fine. Just man-up and admit that you want to dictate what choices should be available to others. You can dress it up in all sorts of rationalizations, but that's the bottom line. Basically you're a coercivist.
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post #319 of 383
11/24/09 at 8:55pm
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
No, I just don't want to pay for child abuse. You're a truth-twister who will take any argument and find some way to conclude "AND THAT'S WHY GOVERNMENT IS EVIL THE END".

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #320 of 383
11/24/09 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

No, I just don't want to pay for child abuse.

But I'll bet you support the clauses that allow abortions to be a covered procedure under these so-called health care "reform" plans.

Additionally the statement "I just don't want to pay for..." is the first step in the full politicization of health care.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You're a truth-twister who will take any argument and find some way to conclude "AND THAT'S WHY GOVERNMENT IS EVIL THE END".

Whatever. I can't cure your blindness.
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