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Is there any form of Government HealthCare you could get behind? - Page 10

Poll Results: What would you Consider an acceptable reform of Health Care?

 
  • 60% (15)
    Full Gov't health care with public option
  • 0% (0)
    Full Gov't health care no public option
  • 4% (1)
    Gov't care only for low income who cannot afford their own plan
  • 0% (0)
    A gov't instituted health exchange or Co-op.
  • 4% (1)
    Gov't vouchers or tax breaks to constituents for purchase of health insurance.
  • 12% (3)
    One of the above with tort reform and follow through on medicare savings.
  • 4% (1)
    Legislation on Tort reform and follow through on medicare savings only.
  • 16% (4)
    Close it all down for Gov't involvment and let the free market work.
  • 0% (0)
    Leave it alone, things are fine as is.
  • 0% (0)
    My option is not up here! (Please explain.)
25 Total Votes  
post #361 of 383
11/26/09 at 11:14am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

You'd attract more qualified candidates. Very few people are highly qualified and teach because they love it even though they could be much more successful doing something else.

So the teachers we have now are generally not qualified (Except for a select few), and the teachers that are qualified cannot teach for the small amount of money they are paid, Correct?

As an interesting aside, the teachers in the private school my son goes to are all paid LESS than their public teacher counterparts. I KNOW this to be a fact as one of the public school teachers that I attend church with refuses to work at the private school as she could not afford the pay CUT. And yet my son gets a better education there. Pay is not the problem. Must be something else...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #362 of 383
11/26/09 at 11:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I can well believe you would, but then if you couldn't read or write you wouldn't have a keyboard to break in all likelihood, but granted you probably would have enough education to show approval by simply bashing on the + key. Many others wouldn't have an education either and that would mean a whole lot of jobs going overseas amongst other dire consequences. That's unless you believe that everybody would be able to afford private schooling, but as private health insurance has shown many cannot afford it and are left to die and suffer excruciating deaths feeling abandoned and spending the last of their money on whatever little help they can afford.

A study by the NCES shows that test results are very similar between private and public schools, with in some cases public schools attaining better results than private and vice versa. That of course is not the be all and end all of the schooling process. Both systems have their good and bad points. I wander if Noahj would feel so happy about sending his kids to a private school if it meant one or more of his kids getting no education at all?

~ http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard...es/2006461.pdf

Yes, because it is either public school, private school, or no education right? \ Home schoolers don't exist and get lousy educations right?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #363 of 383
11/26/09 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Yes, because it is either public school, private school, or no education right? \ Home schoolers don't exist and get lousy educations right?

Of course home schooling exists and can get better results than either public or private schooling, but not everyone is able to offer that to their children, as I suspect you know.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #364 of 383
11/26/09 at 12:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Of course home schooling exists and can get better results than either public or private schooling, but not everyone is able to offer that to their children, as I suspect you know.

Well, how far are you willing to go with your argument? There are always going to be those who don't get the education they desire. Even now with gov't mandated education and taxes being taken to ensure it this still happens.

Gov't intervention is not the answer as reality will always get in the way. It always has. The only way to ensure education for the children is to have their parents that take it seriously. Even if they cannot do it themselves, they can find a way to get education for their kids if they really want it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #365 of 383
11/26/09 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Well, how far are you willing to go with your argument? There are always going to be those who don't get the education they desire. Even now with gov't mandated education and taxes being taken to ensure it this still happens.

Gov't intervention is not the answer as reality will always get in the way. It always has. The only way to ensure education for the children is to have their parents that take it seriously. Even if they cannot do it themselves, they can find a way to get education for their kids if they really want it.

So what are you recommending parents do if they can't afford private schooling, there's no government schooling and they can't manage home schooling? I'm not sure that there would be as many opportunities for them as you seem to think there would be.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #366 of 383
11/26/09 at 1:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

So what are you recommending parents do if they can't afford private schooling, there's no government schooling and they can't manage home schooling? I'm not sure that there would be as many opportunities for them as you seem to think there would be.

What world are you living in where this is the case? Hypotheticals, while interesting to think about create situations where it is not possible to succeed. This is not the Kobayashi Maru...

In your made up world I guess they would have no education and would die ignorant? Of course they would have no friends or family or any other resources to rely upon either. Instead of working for the education they desire they would just resign themselves to a life of futility.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #367 of 383
11/26/09 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

What world are you living in where this is the case? Hypotheticals, while interesting to think about create situations where it is not possible to succeed. This is not the Kobayashi Maru...

In your made up world I guess they would have no education and would die ignorant? Of course they would have no friends or family or any other resources to rely upon either. Instead of working for the education they desire they would just resign themselves to a life of futility.

I guess asking what alternatives would be available to parents other than home schooling in response to you just saying "Even if they cannot do it themselves, they can find a way to get education for their kids if they really want it." after you having already said "Yes, because it is either public school, private school, or no education right? Home schoolers don't exist and get lousy educations right?" was a complete waste of my time.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #368 of 383
11/26/09 at 1:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I guess asking what alternatives would be available to parents other than home schooling in response to you just saying "Even if they cannot do it themselves, they can find a way to get education for their kids if they really want it." after you having already said "Yes, because it is either public school, private school, or no education right? Home schoolers don't exist and get lousy educations right?" was a complete waste of my time.


Let me restate:

Of course they would have no friends or family or any other resources to rely upon either. Instead of working for the education they desire they would just resign themselves to a life of futility.

They will get whatever their priority is.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #369 of 383
11/26/09 at 2:04pm
Hands Sandon, why do you assume that there would not be charitable organizations, churches, mutual aid societies, etc. not to mention scholarship funds that would be available to those in need*?


*I assume that in free-market, education products and services would be significantly more varied, available, accessible, affordable (not to mention higher quality) so the percentage of those truly in need would be quite small. In fact, in that kind of arrangement (vs. what we have now) if any government assistance was required it could be provided in the form of small subsidy vouchers still providing the recipients the greatest amount of choice. In short, we don't need government-run schools, and we don't need government-run health care (if we do things the right way).
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post #370 of 383
11/26/09 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Let me restate:

Of course they would have no friends or family or any other resources to rely upon either. Instead of working for the education they desire they would just resign themselves to a life of futility.

They will get whatever their priority is.

Sounds really super!

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #371 of 383
11/26/09 at 3:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Sounds really super!

Last time there was something that you really needed and you did not have it immeditaely available, what did you do?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #372 of 383
11/26/09 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Last time there was something that you really needed and you did not have it immeditaely available, what did you do?

Got pissed off!

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #373 of 383
11/26/09 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Got pissed off!

And what did you do then? Did you decide, shit...someone fucking owes me this thing I want or need, I'm gonna get together with a bunch of my buddies and lobby the government to go get it for me from someone else?
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post #374 of 383
11/26/09 at 4:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Hands Sandon, why do you assume that there would not be charitable organizations, churches, mutual aid societies, etc. not to mention scholarship funds that would be available to those in need*?


*I assume that in free-market, education products and services would be significantly more varied, available, accessible, affordable (not to mention higher quality) so the percentage of those truly in need would be quite small. In fact, in that kind of arrangement (vs. what we have now) if any government assistance was required it could be provided in the form of small subsidy vouchers still providing the recipients the greatest amount of choice. In short, we don't need government-run schools, and we don't need government-run health care (if we do things the right way).

I can't help thinking that things might not work out as well as you might think.

Tomorrow night I'm very glad to be going to an auction in Glasgow where I have donated a piece of artwork to a charity that's setting up a school in Tanzania, Africa. I feel great that I'm contributing to it but I wouldn't feel great about going to the same event here or in the US. The systems not perfect here or in the US, but to change it to relying on charity to provide an education is just too much!

Here's the auction site- http://www.1-solution.co.uk/Prints.php and the charity site- http://www.rudatanzania.org.uk/

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #375 of 383
11/26/09 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I can't help thinking that things might not work out as well as you might think.

I have that exact same feeling when someone proposes a government solution to a problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Tomorrow night I'm very glad to be going to an auction in Glasgow where I have donated a piece of artwork to a charity that's setting up a school in Tanzania, Africa. I feel great that I'm contributing to it but I wouldn't feel great about going to the same event here or in the US. The systems not perfect here or in the US, but to change it to relying on charity to provide an education is just too much!

First, I'm not suggesting it would entirely rely on charity. In fact I suspect a very small part would rely on charity.

Second, why are you so skeptical about charity? You just gave an example of your individual actions of charity. I give money and goods to a few organizations. I'm sure other's here do as well. I'd give more if I was able to keep more of my money (taken as taxes). I just saw a piece (before the football games today) about a single football player that was donating $2M to some children's hospital (on top of other donations and contributions he's already made apparently). I'm sure we can find a huge number of examples. Americans are quite generous. When they see a need they move to try to meet that need.

I'm reading a book right now called "The Tragedy of American Compassion" (which I'm only partly through). The first part of the book details the history of private charity* (in all of its widely varied forms) in the early part of this country's history. It's simply astonishing how much was done and was available!


*This book seems to be just about general charity and not specifically education. However, I have read several things that have given a similar history of education in the early part of this country's history and I think many people would be surprised to find that people of lesser means had a surprising number of options available to them. I'm not suggesting it was all a bed of roses, but it certainly wasn't the hell that is often portrayed, and there were a variety of private organizations (both secular and religious) that were stepping up to the plate to meet these needs and help get people on their feet.
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post #376 of 383
11/26/09 at 4:21pm
One more thing that I'd add to both the education or the health care debate is that by privatizing an deregulating these sectors, they would be open to a wide array of innovations and get away from the typically "one size fits all" approach that is often taken in government-run programs.
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post #377 of 383
11/26/09 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I have that exact same feeling when someone proposes a government solution to a problem.




First, I'm not suggesting it would entirely rely on charity. In fact I suspect a very small part would rely on charity.

Second, why are you so skeptical about charity? You just gave an example of your individual actions of charity. I give money and goods to a few organizations. I'm sure other's here do as well. I'd give more if I was able to keep more of my money (taken as taxes). I just saw a piece (before the football games today) about a single football player that was donating $2M to some children's hospital (on top of other donations and contributions he's already made apparently). I'm sure we can find a huge number of examples. Americans are quite generous. When they see a need they move to try to meet that need.

I'm reading a book right now called "The Tragedy of American Compassion" (which I'm only partly through). The first part of the book details the history of private charity* (in all of its widely varied forms) in the early part of this country's history. It's simply astonishing how much was done and was available!


*This book seems to be just about general charity and not specifically education. However, I have read several things that have given a similar history of education in the early part of this country's history and I think many people would be surprised to find that people of lesser means had a surprising number of options available to them. I'm not suggesting it was all a bed of roses, but it certainly wasn't the hell that is often portrayed, and there were a variety of private organizations (both secular and religious) that were stepping up to the plate to meet these needs and help get people on their feet.

I'll get that book and have a read.

I'm not skeptical about charity per se, I think that like health care there'd be many left out that couldn't afford it. I do agree to some extent, dare I say it, with Trumptman, that it's unfair to pay taxes to a government run school system and yet not use directly those services. Obviously there are reasons why that's the case, but I'd like to see some form of discounts given to those that don't use the services, maybe half say of the normal amount. As an example Noahj then might be able to afford to send all his kids to private schools because he would be paying less in tax. I don't think it would be right not to pay into the government run system at all, because there are benefits for everyone to have an educated society. The main rationale for why that doesn't happen I suspect is because that person may have, at some point, a need for government schooling, so it effectively acts like a safety net that their paying into. How it would be implemented into the current taxing structure may also be complicated but I can see tangible benefits for people. For instance if $2000 (made up amount) came out of your taxes each year for schooling each child you have, you would instead pay just $1000 for each child, so long as your child didn't enroll in a public school. I'm being overly simplistic, I know, but you get the idea.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #378 of 383
11/26/09 at 4:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

One more thing that I'd add to both the education or the health care debate is that by privatizing an deregulating these sectors, they would be open to a wide array of innovations and get away from the typically "one size fits all" approach that is often taken in government-run programs.

I definitely agree with that.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #379 of 383
11/28/09 at 6:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

And what did you do then? Did you decide, shit...someone fucking owes me this thing I want or need, I'm gonna get together with a bunch of my buddies and lobby the government to go get it for me from someone else?

Exactly the question I wondered. And to go a step further, did you actually take any steps to get that thing that you NEEDED? Or did you just sit down and stew angrily?

Hope everyone had a great Thanksiving. I am trying to see what I missed for posts, tried to keep away for the most part over the holiday.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #380 of 383
12/7/09 at 9:59am
I don't know why, but it continues to amaze me the love affair that liberals seem to have with ad hominem attacks not to mention poorly considered historical comparisons for people who oppose their massive authoritarian anti-freedom plans to reshape the world into their dreams of Utopia.

First global warming skeptics were just "denialers" or "denialists". Later they were compared to holocaust deniers, because, well you know, that kind of thing helps further civilized discussion and, you know it's like true and all that.

And now, we have Harry Read comparing opponents of his massive health care boondoggle to those who opposed ending slavery and women's right to vote: http://bit.ly/687qBH
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post #381 of 383
12/7/09 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I don't know why, but it continues to amaze me the love affair that liberals seem to have with ad hominem attacks not to mention poorly considered historical comparisons for people who oppose their massive authoritarian anti-freedom plans to reshape the world into their dreams of Utopia.

First global warming skeptics were just "denialers" or "denialists". Later they were compared to holocaust deniers, because, well you know, that kind of thing helps further civilized discussion and, you know it's like true and all that.

And now, we have Harry Read comparing opponents of his massive health care boondoggle to those who opposed ending slavery and women's right to vote: http://bit.ly/687qBH

Nancy Pelosi played the "Nazi" card when she claimed the healthcare townhall protesters were carrying swastikas.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #382 of 383
12/7/09 at 10:09am
I can only assume that this sort of thing comes from the mentality that is incapable of seeing in merit whatsoever (and only outright evil and immorality) in disagreeing with them.
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post #383 of 383
12/7/09 at 10:13am
I think part of it is that these people are so out of touch with the average American, so far-removed from reality that they actually believe some of the things they are saying.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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