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Exclusive look at Apple's new iPod touch-based EasyPay checkout - Page 2

post #41 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Was the software developed in-house? It doesn't have that "Apple" look to it.

What is up with the "iForgot" button? This thing was written by clowns. The kind of people who don't pay attention to details, which is needed for reliable software. On the basis of that one button, I predict a buggy failure, with queues of frustrated customers over the holiday season.

AppleConnect is the in-house POS/timecard/etc. network system. the iForgot button is, IIRC, on all AppleConnect "terminals", for resetting your password. so, it would make sense that it is also on the new EasyPay system.

and yes, it's developed in-house by Apple.
post #42 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post

These are the first units rolled out, not far from prototypes. There is no reason that a version 2.0 could be rolled out that is able to read the Euro style "chip" credit card. If you notice that the rollout and testing was being done in the usa does it not make sense that they are focusing on their current real world use.

As Marvin stated, they would utilize the hybrid system like they do for debit cards (which also require a pin). In Canada at least, we can still use the magnetic strips is a chip reader isn't present.

Debit cards have been around a long time. If they can't do that from the iPod touch, there must be limitations on how the card information and pin is transmitted and verified. Someone else has already suggested that. While I would love an all-in-one system, the fact that it lacks full debit card functionality (more so than the lack of a chip reader) doesn't make that prospect look very promising.
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post #43 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Yes- that is what usually occurs when technology advances 5 years later.

The Symbol/EasyPay system was actually clunky for its time. Not sure what Apple was thinking there, although, they are definitely the contrast gainer now. But, tech advance and elegance are not necessarily the same thing.
post #44 of 153
Aww...shame I just bought a iMac...I really don't think remote operated cash drawers are safe though.
post #45 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

Was the software developed in-house? It doesn't have that "Apple" look to it.

What is up with the "iForgot" button? This thing was written by clowns. The kind of people who don't pay attention to details, which is needed for reliable software. On the basis of that one button, I predict a buggy failure, with queues of frustrated customers over the holiday season.

Why didn't they just hire the guys who wrote the Red Laser app (one of my favorite apps and always in the TOp 10) to just rework it for the store exclusively? Then they could use the iPhone itself to check you out. It would also advertise that the iPhone does something really productive - live.
post #46 of 153
Finally a cash register with YouTube!
post #47 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Great overview and an interesting device.

I have to say that I've *never* heard this before though:
Typically, customers in an Apple store only use the easy pay by means of an employee of the store approaching them and saying "I can do that for you right here if you like." I've never heard of anyone being confused about it.

Until some enterprising crook puts on a color t shirt, a fake apple id card and his own version of pay me system that literally pays him.

Probable? No! Possible? Yes!

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post #48 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by tape View Post

AppleConnect is the in-house POS/timecard/etc. network system. the iForgot button is, IIRC, on all AppleConnect "terminals", for resetting your password. so, it would make sense that it is also on the new EasyPay system.

and yes, it's developed in-house by Apple.

That surprises me. Mind you Xcode is also developed in-house and (with the exception of Interface Builder) does not have the Apple feel. I guess it comes down to which projects the CEO takes an interest in and which not.
post #49 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Great overview and an interesting device.

I have to say that I've *never* heard this before though:
Typically, customers in an Apple store only use the easy pay by means of an employee of the store approaching them and saying "I can do that for you right here if you like." I've never heard of anyone being confused about it.

Does msft devices really way 5 times more? I've felt the ez pay and it's not to heavy but it's but light either, So I can't imagine 5 times heavier.

Peace
post #50 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

That surprises me. Mind you Xcode is also developed in-house and (with the exception of Interface Builder) does not have the Apple feel.

Well, Xcode still retains a good bit of the NeXTStep feel, which has mostly been eradicated elsewhere in Mac OS.
post #51 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiimamac View Post

Does msft devices really way 5 times more? I've felt the ez pay and it's not to heavy but it's but light either, So I can't imagine 5 times heavier.

Peace

Well, I haven't seen them, but, if they (MSFT) are printing receipts, say a 3" thermal printer with the device attached to it, it could be pretty heavy. That's ok, though, you just grab a couple and use them as dumbbells when it's slow.
post #52 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus View Post

Next year over half the stores they open are outside the US and they have made a significant investment in a POS device without a chip reader!!!

It would be a very simply matter to develop & add it to the case, if it has not already been developed.
The software package to do the actual transactions would have been the "difficult" part.
The chip has not caught on yet in the states so likely thats not why it is shown/included.
post #53 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Great overview and an interesting device.

I have to say that I've *never* heard this before though:
Typically, customers in an Apple store only use the easy pay by means of an employee of the store approaching them and saying "I can do that for you right here if you like." I've never heard of anyone being confused about it.

I could see some nefarious people slipping on a black t-shirt, and adding a card skimmer to their iPod touch, and hanging around Apple stores.

As someone with (too much) knowledge of the Payment Card Industry Data Security Standards (PCI DSS), I take an unhealthy interest in how card payment systems can be subverted.

I presume end-to-end solution is PCI DSS compliant. It would be intereting to know what security Apple has in place...

On another note: will Apple be doing a Chip'n'PIN version for all the Apple Stores outside of N America?
post #54 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

If they were as bad as you state Apple would surely not have utilized them for 4 years. Good grief!

As a former Apple Retail employee, I assure you that although EasyPay is a fantastic idea, the devices were complete crap. Whereas the POS stations are bullet proof, the EasyPay devices crash frequently and are a real pain to carry around. Every employee has been praying for the day that the iPodTouch would replace them.
post #55 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

For the first time, cash transactions can be accepted by any Apple store employee who has an iPod touch. After entering all the products and totaling the cost, the employee presses an on-screen "Cash" button to electronically open one of several cash drawers installed around the store.

Let the thievery begin!

Btw, POS is a very fitting acronym because usually that's what they are. POS.
post #56 of 153
So what if I want to sign paper?! I never sign those digital signature screens! Who knows how securely or not your signature is. Identity theft is on the rise...
post #57 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by aiki View Post

Every employee has been praying for the day that the iPodTouch would replace them.

Keep on praying then.
post #58 of 153
This looks super cool, indeed. I wonder if they and accompanying software will be rolled out for the general public. At this point the entire system looks a lot nicer than the one in the works by the Twitter guy.
post #59 of 153
Ah, so maybe THIS is why they canceled the iPod Touch camera at the last minute -- it was too crappy to work in Apple's POS system!!!
post #60 of 153
Does anybody know what the purpose of the small symbol (blue circle with a white arrow) in the lower right corner of the EasyPay application icon on the home screen is?

I haven´t seen it before and in case it´s really not in use yet, wouldn´t it be a smart way of signaling "return to application currently running in the background"?
post #61 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

So what if I want to sign paper?! I never sign those digital signature screens! Who knows how securely or not your signature is. Identity theft is on the rise...

My signature isn't legible on those things anyway. It looks nothing like it does on paper.
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post #62 of 153
Next step...the RFID implantable chip. Get one stamped into your skull or wrist today!
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post #63 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I haven't heard of it, but I can understand it. When you have customers that are accustomed to a different "retail language" (my words, sorry if it already means something different) than what Apple uses, things can be confusing. Unless told otherwise, people expect to take their purchase to an clearly visible fixed horizontal surface beside a large machine that handles the transaction.


What? Best Buy has been using remote POS for YEARS. Circuit City did it. Find an Employee and they'll take you to a department station instead of the counter up front and chek you out. You can't jus go to the station because the employees are on the floor, so you have to find them. Just Like at these Apple stores. The only difference is, Apple removed the desk and computer and instead is using an iPod. Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?
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post #64 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

A portable device that reads credit cards and stores that information, including your signature! In other words, a portable device for stealing someone's identity! No thanks.

Like any other electronic device that is used to read credit cards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud View Post

just another chapter in the slow but very real decline of WinMo and its variants.

Its not looking good for MS, but I am more worried about Motorolas Symbol business.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post

These are the first units rolled out, not far from prototypes. There is no reason that a version 2.0 could be rolled out that is able to read the Euro style "chip" credit card. If you notice that the rollout and testing was being done in the usa does it not make sense that they are focusing on their current real world use.

I dont see any writing on them. Are these made by Apple or a 3rd-party manufacturer?


Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

This looks very nice and completely blows away the old Symbol-EasyPay system. I can imagine quite a lot of demand for the case if it is made available outside Apple, especially if it were made to fit an iPhone. Obviously, you'd need to write your own software to use it (although a general POS app would work for many), but it would be a very elegant solution combined with a BT printer for those situations where you need to print a physical receipt on the spot.

One for the iPhone would be nice. Some phone manufacturers have models with built in CC readers for remote purchases. I can see both types of units being popular, especially when you consider the price of the Symbol devices compared to the price of a Touch + the accessory. Even with a huge markup they should be able to come in well below Motorolas offering.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Finally a cash register with YouTube!




Quote:
Originally Posted by hiimamac View Post

Does msft devices really way 5 times more? I've felt the ez pay and it's not to heavy but it's but light either, So I can't imagine 5 times heavier.

It sure looks like 5x as heavy. Its considerably larger. Note, is not really a MS device. Its a Motorola device using WinCE as the OS. This is still very common and will continue to be common for a long time. The Touch my change that for these handheld PoS devices, but WinCE will still have a lot of business elsewhere because Apple chooses to not license their OSes.
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post #65 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by m2002brian View Post

What? Best Buy has been using remote POS for YEARS. Circuit City did it. Find an Employee and they'll take you to a department station instead of the counter up front and chek you out. You can't jus go to the station because the employees are on the floor, so you have to find them. Just Like at these Apple stores. The only difference is, Apple removed the desk and computer and instead is using an iPod. Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?

Not only that, but customers can still line up to pay in back. Although an Apple employee will probably let you know that you don't have to line up to pay.... problem solved. The only problem I have is that I don't want a bag and they email you your receipt, so how do you get out the door?
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post #66 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

The only problem I have is that I don't want a bag and they email you your receipt, so how do you get out the door?

Walk?
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post #67 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by m2002brian View Post

What? Best Buy has been using remote POS for YEARS. Circuit City did it. Find an Employee and they'll take you to a department station instead of the counter up front and chek you out. You can't jus go to the station because the employees are on the floor, so you have to find them. Just Like at these Apple stores. The only difference is, Apple removed the desk and computer and instead is using an iPod. Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?

There are stationary registers elsewhere in the building at retail chains, but I've not seen BB use a handheld device for checkout. Other than Apple, the only place I've seen them used in retail was at Sam's Club, and that has been a while too. Sam's club had a pre-scan, the people with the handheld devices didn't take the money that I recall.
post #68 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Walk?

I don't like walking out of the door with a set of headphones or whatever in hand when it looks like I just snatched them off the rack.
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post #69 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

I don't like walking out of the door with a set of headphones or whatever in hand when it looks like I just snatched them off the rack.

In that case, I suggest you pay for them first. Prior payment tends to make for a good alibi and youll likely be able to get some free stuff from Apple if they detain you falsely.

Seriously, Im sure Apple has worked this out when going to the paper-less receipt method
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post #70 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzDots View Post

Damn Hillstones, been out much? Portable has nothing to do with that signature reader you sign at grocery stores, Wally World, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, and a thousand other places - for the last 10 years. Same device, only fixed.

Yes, the difference is that those devices are fixed to the point-of-sale counter and not portable for some employee to take the iPod Touch home and download all the credit card data into his computer. Or, for a customer to steal the handheld device and do the same thing.

I guess you have never heard of servers at restaurants using a portable card reader to steal your credit card information when you go out to eat? It happens more often than you think.
post #71 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

In that case, I suggest you pay for them first. Prior payment tends to make for a good alibi and youll likely be able to get some free stuff from Apple if they detain you falsely.

Seriously, Im sure Apple has worked this out when going to the paper-less receipt method

yeah, I've never had a problem. It is just different
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post #72 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogcow View Post

How is this any different than using any other credit card terminal or even the internet? I doubt CC info is stored on the device locally. It's on a server and transmitted with encryption. That doesn't make it any more or less "safe" than any other transaction processing method.

It is different because credit card terminals at stores are permanently fixed to the counter. They are not hand held and small enough to fit into someone's pocket. You don't know if the information is immediately transferred off the device (that USB port on the bottom may be for data transfer and charging of the battery). The article doesn't mention how it works, except that a credit card reader and scanner is attached to the iPod Touch.

Transactions over the internet are not scanned into a portable card reader.
post #73 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

Yes, the difference is that those devices are fixed to the point-of-sale counter and not portable for some employee to take the iPod Touch home and download all the credit card data into his computer. Or, for a customer to steal the handheld device and do the same thing.

I guess you have never heard of servers at restaurants using a portable card reader to steal your credit card information when you go out to eat? It happens more often than you think.

Your initial post made it sound like this is now a problem since these new devices are being used. If you dont want to use any portable device when using your card, then you have that right, but youre still not free from thievery. There is ATM malware and false fronts on ATMs to still card numbers and PINs. There is the internet at large and servers with personal information on them. I would guess that these devices do not retain your personal info.

Trying to get any info that may be stored in RAM is not something that can be done easily. Id also guess that with all these handheld devices, they can be deactivated quickly. This may even have GPS chip in it that can be tracked with Find My iPhone in case it is lost or stolen, something the other devices cant do.

Then you have CC companies refunding your money right aware and insuring your card. I dont feel threatened all by the use of these devices and Im quite paranoid about identity theft. My biggest concern with these devices is not the device itself, but the wireless transmission that can be picked up by anyone, even outside the store, or something calmly shopping around while a device in their pocket is capturing all the data. If they can hack the encryption then they could collect for days, weeks or months and before using the data. Tracking that back to an Apple Store and then to a group or rotating shoppers working the scam would be very difficult.
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post #74 of 153
Only POS in this article is the iPhone formatting AI stupidly designed. It was a pain in the a$$ reading this article. What's up with that? Lord all you need are big ads and there won't be ANY window left for actual reading.
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post #75 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

i don't know about Canada or Europe, but in the US the rules are that the merchant pays for unauthorized credit card use most of the time because they are supposed to check for ID and/or signatures. and they run fraud software in the background to protect against theft. i've seen people with stolen cards get all the charges taken off because once they call the bank, the merchant is asked to provide receipts with the signature to match up to the card holder's signature.

any security scheme where most of the work is done on the client is doomed to failure

As a former Apple Retail Specialist, we are specifically told NOT to ask for additional ID, as that would be a violation of Apple's agreements with the credit card companies.

As for refunds for fraudulent transactions, the law requires the customer to get them once the total is over $50. My credit card companies have instantly done all, and contacted me themselves when they felt the transaction is out of line with the ongoing spending pattern they track for me, which is great. I am unaware of what happens between the credit card company and the merchant, but my refunds clearly happened without any checking with the merchants beforehand.
post #76 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

yeah, I've never had a problem. It is just different

After your next Apple Store purchase, make a mad dash for the door while clenching the product.
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post #77 of 153
You guys are funny. No information is stored on the device. It's an internet only app, like the youtube app. It's no different than you or I making a purchase, with a credit card, on Safari, on an iPod touch.
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post #78 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

As Marvin stated, they would utilize the hybrid system like they do for debit cards (which also require a pin). In Canada at least, we can still use the magnetic strips is a chip reader isn't present.

Debit cards have been around a long time. If they can't do that from the iPod touch, there must be limitations on how the card information and pin is transmitted and verified. Someone else has already suggested that. While I would love an all-in-one system, the fact that it lacks full debit card functionality (more so than the lack of a chip reader) doesn't make that prospect look very promising.

I would have to agree that there must be some limitation when using the Debit system. My debit card can be run as a credit card my bank does not charge me for that. What I find amusing is that from a sellers point of a view a debit card is the more profitable sale. The debit network charges a flat fee where the credit card transaction is a fee + percentage of the sale price. I would have to assume that if its at all possible then Apple will do whatever it takes to make it possible to do debits on these. If for no other reason then to lower their costs on large transactions. The costs associated with credit card transactions is one of the reasons that Walmart so desperately wants to be a bank so that they can reduce or eliminate these costs.
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post #79 of 153
Solipsism
I have no inside information on who makes them. My comment on these being just outside the prototype stage was based on past experience not insider info. I worked at a large distributer and when we switched from a old unix system to a new windows based company wide erp system. We had to switch scanning guns and the first two that we received were actually prototypes that the hardware was finalized but the firmware was still open. We helped debug them by doing data dumps and sending it to both the software developer and the gun manufacturer when we found problems. We got these units at a slight discount for our "help", and later these were able to be used in production although we kept them reserved for debugging purposes as we added new features. I assumed that the first batch that Apple has deployed will probably be similar in that functions are added or refined as Apple shakes them out and bugs are found in actual deployment.
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post #80 of 153
Quote:
Originally Posted by m2002brian View Post

Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?

Because most Apple Store employees walk around the store ignoring the customers and give no indication to anyone that they can ring up an item for you. So in most cases, it is very easy to look around wondering how to buy something. I have been to the Apple Store a few times and seen that happen, other times the service has been excellent. In some cases, they have also taken me straight to the Genius desk to complete the purchase.
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