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The Terrorists Won

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
I don't see how we can claim any victory..Moral or otherwise.

Heard on the radio today an estimated 1.6 Million jobs were lost due to the lingering aftereffects of Sept 11th.

Terror is the name of the game and many Americans still harbor much of this potent emotion.

The Patriot Act and other knee jerk responses(talk of creating National ID Cards) have swooped in to further dilute our rights and liberties bestowed upon us by our Constitution(potentially).

Travel is an ordeal now...look for large attrition as many of the struggling Airlines like United fold. Raising prices to fly in the process.

How can you claim victory with this ailments. Death by a thousand cuts right. We won the Battle but not the War. Osama will be replaced...will our rights enjoy the same?

HM
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post #2 of 12
Just because they inflicted harm on us, doesn't mean they "won." The Japanese inflicted harm on us at Pearl Harbor, but that doesn't mean they won WWII, does it?
post #3 of 12
Thread Starter 
No Sizzle but Japan was a nation. Terrorists have different motivations, a different thought process. Rules of Engagement don't apply. They are not bound by our traditional methodology of War. A magazine recently asked " Are Hackers Cyber Terrorists?" this is open for debate as everything is but whens the last time a virus caused absolute "Terror" in a person? America loves to commoditize everything to the point where no one knows the true definition. Cyber Terrorists my ass!

Osama will be defeated...but our casualties are higher than I thought possible.

"is it better to be loved...or feared?"
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post #4 of 12
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>I don't see how we can claim any victory..Moral or otherwise.

Heard on the radio today an estimated 1.6 Million jobs were lost due to the lingering aftereffects of Sept 11th.

Terror is the name of the game and many Americans still harbor much of this potent emotion.

The Patriot Act and other knee jerk responses(talk of creating National ID Cards) have swooped in to further dilute our rights and liberties bestowed upon us by our Constitution(potentially).

Travel is an ordeal now...look for large attrition as many of the struggling Airlines like United fold. Raising prices to fly in the process.

How can you claim victory with this ailments. Death by a thousand cuts right. We won the Battle but not the War. Osama will be replaced...will our rights enjoy the same?

HM</strong><hr></blockquote>

I love all these anecdotal stories, but did your life change? Did you lose your job? I have no idea if you did or you didn't. But, it's like they say, if you hear the economy is bad (or other example) then you start to believe it. Whether or not you were personally affected.

I personally, when you look at it, did not get affected from what I can tell. Sure, I have different opinions and convictions now, but nothing substantial changed.

But, everyone has their story. I personally think they can 'make up' those jobs by deporting an equal number of illegal (expired visa or otherwise) aliens. (kind of tic)
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post #5 of 12
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>No Sizzle but Japan was a nation. Terrorists have different motivations, a different thought process. Rules of Engagement don't apply. They are not bound by our traditional methodology of War. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess we have a difference of opinion of what it means to say the terrorists "won." I agree that they did us harm. I agree that the harm lasted beyond the day of Sept. 11th. But to me, to say they "won" means they accomplished their goal and broke us down, established their ongoing domination over us.

I would argue that this has NOT happened. They accomplished part of their goal, the initial part, which was hijacking and crashing planes into various US monuments of importance, and thus disrupting us economically and emotionally. But their final goal is literally our destruction and eradication, and this is not something they have achieved. I would argue that they hit us with a potent shot, but we have fought back and eventually we will wipe them out.

The Dow Jones will recover (it mostly has already), people will find new jobs and the unemployment rate will stabilize, and people will start flying and visiting NYC and Las Vegas and Orlando again.

It's one thing to say "man, they really messed us up in ways that still linger," but I disagree that this means the terrorists "won."
post #6 of 12
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by JRC:
<strong>

I love all these anecdotal stories, but did your life change? Did you lose your job? I have no idea if you did or you didn't. But, it's like they say, if you hear the economy is bad (or other example) then you start to believe it. Whether or not you were personally affected.

I personally, when you look at it, did not get affected from what I can tell. Sure, I have different opinions and convictions now, but nothing substantial changed.

But, everyone has their story. I personally think they can 'make up' those jobs by deporting an equal number of illegal (expired visa or otherwise) aliens. (kind of tic)</strong><hr></blockquote>


Anecdotal as it may sound I live in Seattle and the amount of Pink Slips that have flown from Boing is VERY evident. Our unemployment is visibly higher than other regions. Boeing is our lifeblood. My family has traveled and spoke of the "torture" that is the Seatac Airport.

I agree that it nothing has changed on the surface. But the manipulation of the American Public goes on....it's the dangers that you don't see initially that tend to blow up the worst. When Hitler first started ...many proclaimed him to be a nut until he started swaying the masses....he did this by capitalizing on the "fear" of the German people. I don't take this lightly ..the future of my childrens essential liberties are in the hands of our Gov. We will see how it plays out.

Sizzle- I agree that they haven't dominated us. I fear that they have set the wheels in motion to weaken our already crumbling Constitution. I know I sound like a Strict Contructionist but in a way The danger of our Society has always been the Liberal ways in which we have intrepreted our Rights and Laws. Can a Democracy handle this...we're finding out. All is not Doom and Gloom however and my attitude is upbeat...but I try to keep a keen eye on the happenings and fallout of Sept 11
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post #7 of 12
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>
Sizzle- I agree that they haven't dominated us. I fear that they have set the wheels in motion to weaken our already crumbling Constitution. I know I sound like a Strict Contructionist but in a way The danger of our Society has always been the Liberal ways in which we have intrepreted our Rights and Laws</strong><hr></blockquote>


Hmurch, you can't talk like that... you're from Seattle!
post #8 of 12
We were quite obviously headed for recession before September 11th and people act now as if the economic funk we find ourselves in is a by-product of terrorism. It's lunacy.

Airlines that fold are just collapsing under their own weight, and though people will lose their jobs they are not losing their lives. The terrorists haven't "won" any more than we "won" against Osama bin Laden.

Times are semi-not-good, times are not bad. For some they are, but for the vast majority of the nation times are just slow. In the biggest economic booms there are people on hard times.

Right now the airline industry is getting put through the wringer, and in many eyes that's not a bad thing. As the ratio between CEO salary:average employee salary skyrockets to insane levels (what's the average, 1230:1 now?) you're going to have top-heavy companies (*cough*Enron*cough*) that are just not going to be able to survive harsh times.

The terrorists haven't won shit, people aren't flying as much but how is that a loss? We're setting records for car travel instead, oooooooh, how will I ever bring children into such a world?

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post #9 of 12
Thread Starter 
Groverat,
Good post! I was in a heavy handed mood. I just don't think of giving up freedoms so easily. Fear is a "GOOD" thing..how you handle yourself in the throes of Terror will tell you more about yourself than some shrink. I love my Country like everyone. Just want to keep it as strong as possible.

Sizzle- Born and raised here in Seattle and I can tell you I am NOT like many here. It's funny but true.
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post #10 of 12
[quote]Originally posted by JRC:
<strong>

I love all these anecdotal stories, but did your life change? </strong><hr></blockquote>

uh.. did anyone's life NOT change after Sptember 11, 2000?!
post #11 of 12
Let alone 2001!
post #12 of 12
Osama saw the end of curb side check in and Ashcroft in front of Congress and said "yes! victory is ours!"

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
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