or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Obama: It's Still Bush's Fault
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Obama: It's Still Bush's Fault - Page 11

post #401 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

It's not going over anyone's head. Rate of job loss is related to the unemployment rate. The slowing of job loss is why the unemployment rate has stalled out at or around 10%. The point was, and remains that with the Obama stimulus, it was supposed to slow and stall out at around 8%. The point was and also remains that without the stimulus it was supposed to slow and stall out at around 9% and the level at amount of time that the job market was supposed to take to recover was supposed to be longer.

There is no scenario where job losses remained large and never ending. You are giving Obama credit for a scenario that never did exist and never would exist.


What the graph shows is classic for a recession. The graphs shows imbalances being corrected within the economy. Those imbalances would have corrected and people would eventually go back to work REGARDLESS of what Obama or Bush did. They don't go back to work in their old jobs because those are related to the imbalance but new areas of need are generated and they go to work there. Again this is true FOR EVERY RECESSION. The graph shows nothing more than that. There is no graph where everyone lays it down, never works again, and just dies.



Wrong. Obama could have brought the bipartisanship he promised. In this particular matter, while I still would have disagreed with it, he could have put together a true stimulus plan to help displaced workers. Most of the workers were in the construction field. He could have put together plenty of shovel ready work and it would have passed easily. Republicans made dozens of attempts to separate the shovel ready work (about 15% of the entire stimulus last I recall) from the "pay off the Democratic constituencies and grow dependency" portions of the stimulus (about 85%.)

Obama chose his path. It was expensive, ineffective and partisan and he should be judged by the very results he promised.

Yes, yes we know Bush is not responsible for anything that happened while he was in office. He was just taking up space.

PPD
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #402 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Yes, yes we know Bush is not responsible for anything that happened while he was in office. He was just taking up space.

PPD

Heh. It's working for Obama, so why not.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #403 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Heh. It's working for Obama, so why not.

Do you mean the president that's been in office 1/8th the time Bush was?

If you want to fairly compare the two instead of making childish quips talk about it when Obama's finished his 2 terms in office.

Bush has finished his time however and he's done what he's going to do. There isn't anymore. That's the difference.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #404 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Do you mean the president that's been in office 1/8th the time Bush was?

If you want to fairly compare the two instead of making childish quips talk about it when Obama's finished his 2 terms in office.

I merely commented on your implication that Bush should be held responsible for everything that occurred during the entire time he was in office. If we are to apply this standard equally the amount of time the current president has been in office is irrelevant. He's responsible for all of the things that happen while he's in office. But from what I can tell he seems reluctant (what with his cat-like reflexes in dodging blame) to accept responsibility for anything negative while fully accepting praise for anything positive (however minimal).

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #405 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I merely commented on your implication that Bush should be held responsible for everything that occurred during the entire time he was in office. If we are to apply this standard equally the amount of time the current president has been in office is irrelevant. He's responsible for all of the things that happen while he's in office. But from what I can tell he seems reluctant (what with his cat-like reflexes in dodging blame) to accept responsibility for anything negative while fully accepting praise for anything positive (however minimal).

Quote:
I merely commented on your implication that Bush should be held responsible for everything that occurred during the entire time he was in office.

Apparently you didn't read what I said very closely. I said " anything " not " Everything ". I realize they're phonetically similar but not really the same.

Quote:
If we are to apply this standard equally the amount of time the current president has been in office is irrelevant

As I added to my post recently ( so I'll cut you some slack ) Bush is in summary mode now. You can look at his entire time in office. There won't be any further changes to the record ( bad as it might be ). Obama isn't even close to that yet. That's the difference.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #406 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Apparently you didn't read what I said very closely. I said " anything " not " Everything ".

Fair enough. So, by your estimation, there are some things that happened during his time in office that Bush need not be held responsible for. Now it's just a matter of sorting out which things those are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

As I added to my post recently ( so I'll cut you some slack ) Bush is in summary mode now. You can look at his entire time in office. There won't be any further changes to the record ( bad as it might be ). Obama isn't even close to that yet. That's the difference.

I understand the issues related to comparing an entire 2 terms with a single year. That being said, one can still use reason to judge certain things without waiting 7 more years. It's like this, if my child is about to put their hand into a fire, I needn't wait until their entire childhood is complete to judge whether what they are doing or about to do is stupid, dangerous and harmful.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #407 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Fair enough. So, by your estimation, there are some things that happened during his time in office that Bush need not be held responsible for. Now it's just a matter of sorting out which things those are.

Of course. However some are obvious. And like any good worker leaving their job their boss ( us ) will be looking at them in respect to the outcome of their work. The end result or bottom line if you will. This is a common practice in many walks of life.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #408 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Of course. However some are obvious.

What are the obvious ones?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #409 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

What are the obvious ones?

Look I'm going to go make dinner but I'll leave you with one " Iraq ".

It was supposed to be a quick surgical in and out and what do you know? We're still there ( not much longer though thank god ).
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #410 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Look I'm going to go make dinner but I'll leave you with one " Iraq ".

I agree that Iraq was a mistake. Sadly it isn't being fixed yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

It was supposed to be a quick surgical in and out and what do you know? We're still there ( not much longer though thank god ).

With due agreement of the mistake that Iraq was and is, I don't recall claims at that time that it would be "a quick surgical in and out." If you have a link to back that up I'd be interested. Regardless, it was a mistake of epic proportions.

What are the others? And are there things that happened which Bush cannot be reasonably held responsible for?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #411 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I agree that Iraq was a mistake. Sadly it isn't being fixed yet.

With due agreement of the mistake that Iraq was and is, I don't recall claims at that time that it would be "a quick surgical in and out." If you have a link to back that up I'd be interested.

"My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators." -- Dick Cheney, March 16, 2003

"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." -- Dick Cheney, on the Iraq insurgency, June 20, 2005

"Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties." President Bush, discussing the Iraq war with Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson, after Robertson told him he should prepare the American people for casualties

"It is unknowable how long that conflict [the war in Iraq] will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months." - Donald Rumsfeld in Feb. 2003
eye
bee
BEE
Reply
eye
bee
BEE
Reply
post #412 of 419
The the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are unconstitutional, immoral, and are extremely costly both monetarily and in terms of human lives.

And they could not continue without the support and consent of BOTH MAJOR PARTIES. Actions speak louder than words, and congressman from both parties continue to vote to fund the wars...with money we don't have.

And you know what? I don't really feel much safer...do you?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #413 of 419
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Of course. However some are obvious. And like any good worker leaving their job their boss ( us ) will be looking at them in respect to the outcome of their work. The end result or bottom line if you will. This is a common practice in many walks of life.

You keep repeating this defense and hoping it will stick. No one is claiming we can evaluate the outcomes that haven't happened yet. No one is claiming that we can judge Obama's entire first term before it's happened.

Instead, what I and others are doing is looking at Obama's actions thus far. It's frankly not even what the outcomes are at this point. No reasonable person expects everything to be roses a year into his term. However, we can look at his actions and ask if they make any sense whatsoever. We can look at promises that were made and broken (or kept).

The problem with Obama supporters is that deep down, they know that what Obama is doing is not good for the country--and won't work. They just can't admit it to themselves or to others. So then it becomes a waiting game. "Give him some time...he can't undo all the damage Bush caused in only one year." The issue there is that they are fooling themselves. Even IF Bush was responsible for the "damage," anyone with eyes and ears can see that Obama is doing far more damage.

We always seem to get into this point, jimmac. You refuse to see what Obama is doing RIGHT NOW. Instead, you keep hoping that somehow things will magically get better with the economy. Even if that happens (in spite of Obama's actions), we'll be left with a mountain of debt and no real way of paying it off.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #414 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

You keep repeating this defense and hoping it will stick. No one is claiming we can evaluate the outcomes that haven't happened yet. No one is claiming that we can judge Obama's entire first term before it's happened.

Instead, what I and others are doing is looking at Obama's actions thus far. It's frankly not even what the outcomes are at this point. No reasonable person expects everything to be roses a year into his term. However, we can look at his actions and ask if they make any sense whatsoever. We can look at promises that were made and broken (or kept).

The problem with Obama supporters is that deep down, they know that what Obama is doing is not good for the country--and won't work. They just can't admit it to themselves or to others. So then it becomes a waiting game. "Give him some time...he can't undo all the damage Bush caused in only one year." The issue there is that they are fooling themselves. Even IF Bush was responsible for the "damage," anyone with eyes and ears can see that Obama is doing far more damage.

We always seem to get into this point, jimmac. You refuse to see what Obama is doing RIGHT NOW. Instead, you keep hoping that somehow things will magically get better with the economy. Even if that happens (in spite of Obama's actions), we'll be left with a mountain of debt and no real way of paying it off.

The defense stuck a long time ago except with a few die hards. But of course PPD would keep you from seeing that.

And SDW pssst! A lot of that debt also came from Bush. Much as you'd like please don't forget that point.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #415 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

The the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are unconstitutional, immoral, and are extremely costly both monetarily and in terms of human lives.

And they could not continue without the support and consent of BOTH MAJOR PARTIES. Actions speak louder than words, and congressman from both parties continue to vote to fund the wars...with money we don't have.

And you know what? I don't really feel much safer...do you?

This, jazz, is something that I agree with you 100% on. Well done.

Now if only we could figure out the great economic divide, we could make some real progress.
post #416 of 419
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

The defense stuck a long time ago except with a few die hards. But of course PPD would keep you from seeing that.

And SDW pssst! A lot of that debt also came from Bush. Much as you'd like please don't forget that point.

Do you need to go back on ignore? Clearly you're not reading. Your post does not address what Obama is doing in response. You see, even if one concedes that Bush was COMPLETELY responsible for any economic problems we've experienced, it doesn't change what Obama's actions have been in combatting the crisis.

That's the point on which you have steadfastly refused to engage. Someone criticizes an Obama action/policy, and the answer immediately is "But Bush..." or "It's only been a year." We can talk about what Bush did all day. None of it matters, because we need to discuss what Obama is doing NOW.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
post #417 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

"It's only been a year."

I heard a rumor that they're already printing up the t-shirts and bumper stickers that say "It's only been 2 years!" as well as getting a head start on "It's only been 3 years!" and "It's only been 4 years!"

I suspect there won't be any need to go beyond that though.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

Reply
post #418 of 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Do you need to go back on ignore? Clearly you're not reading. Your post does not address what Obama is doing in response. You see, even if one concedes that Bush was COMPLETELY responsible for any economic problems we've experienced, it doesn't change what Obama's actions have been in combatting the crisis.

That's the point on which you have steadfastly refused to engage. Someone criticizes an Obama action/policy, and the answer immediately is "But Bush..." or "It's only been a year." We can talk about what Bush did all day. None of it matters, because we need to discuss what Obama is doing NOW.

Quote:
Do you need to go back on ignore?

" Please don't throw me into the briar patch! Please, please, please! "

Quote:
You see, even if one concedes that Bush was COMPLETELY responsible for any economic problems we've experienced, it doesn't change what Obama's actions have been in combatting the crisis.

It doesn't absolve Bush from blame either.

As to the rest I just don't see what Obama's doing in the same light you do. Probably because of PPD.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
Reply
post #419 of 419
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

" Please don't throw me into the briar patch! Please, please, please! "



It doesn't absolve Bush from blame either.

As to the rest I just don't see what Obama's doing in the same light you do. Probably because of PPD.

Oh my lord. I know it doesn't absolve Bush. I just said...you can blame Bush all you want. Fine. That doesn't address what Obama is doing. Speaking of which, what do you think he's done right on the economy?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PoliticalOutsider
AppleInsider › Forums › Other Discussion › AppleOutsider › PoliticalOutsider › Obama: It's Still Bush's Fault