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Apple predicted to countersue in legal battle with Nokia

post #1 of 42
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Following Nokia's lawsuit against Apple for alleged patent infringements in the iPhone, experts have said it would be standard practice for Apple to countersue in the case, which is predicted to last 2 to 3 years.

A new report from Reuters said that the most likely scenario for both companies to not be engaged in a lengthy suit is if they can reach a licensing deal outside of the courts. But analysts believe it is likely that Apple will countersue Nokia for its own patents and allege separate infringement.

"This type of tit-for-tat approach has occurred in previous patent battles as each player tries to improve its negotiating position," said Ben Wood, research director at CCS Insight.

In addition, the report said that the fight between the two massive companies could become even more complex, spilling over to Europe like the Nokia-Qualcomm battle, and possibly ending up in the hands of the U.S. International Trade Commission. The original complaint was filed in October in a U.S. District Court in Delaware. That case, experts said, could be stayed until an ITC decision.

Nokia has alleged that Apple violated ten patents it owns. Nokia claims ownership of technology related to Global System for Mobile communications (GSM); wireless local area network (WLAN); and Universal Mobile Telecommunications System (UTMS). The Finnish company has argued that it has invested more than 40 billion Euros into research and development in the last two decades, giving it a broad portfolio of patents. The company has entered into license agreements with about 40 companies for these patents.

Nokia's suit specifically cites 10 patents that cover wireless data, speech coding, security and encryption. It has alleged that all iPhone models released since 2007 infringe on these patents.

Analyst Gene Munster with Piper Jaffray has predicted that Nokia is looking to obtain a patent royalty of 1 percent to 2 percent, or $6 to $12, on every iPhone sold. Other estimates cited by Reuters suggest Nokia seeks compensation in the range of $200 million to $1 billion.

Though Apple's formal response, and potential countersuit, is expected soon, the company has not yet made any moves. Apple did, in its annual Form 10-K filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, note that it will "vigorously" defend itself against Nokia's complaint.

Analysts who spoke with Reuters said a settlement might be the best option for both companies. The situation is particularly difficult because it is said to be "unlikely" a company could create a mobile phone without using Nokia-patented technology. And Nokia doesn't want to "kill the goose with the golden egg" either, said Steven Nathasingh, managing director of U.S. research firm Vaxa Inc.

"They both have something to gain if they can put their heads together for a win-win," he said.
post #2 of 42
This will be another example of the early bird losing the worm later on, when the judge decides that Nokia cannot continue to claim patents on every aspect of mobile communication.
post #3 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

... The Finnish company has argued that it has invested more than 40 billion Euros into research and development in the last two decades, giving it a broad portfolio of patents. ...

Just to be picky, you guys have used this phrase in two stories on the subject now and it's pretty much nonsensical.

Nokia *has* put 40 billion into R&D and it *does* have a wide patent of portfolios, but this is not their "argument" nor can it be. Those are just two facts, the argument they have has yet to be presented other than the plain fact that they think Apple infringes on those patents.
post #4 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Just to be picky, you guys have used this phrase in two stories on the subject now and it's pretty much nonsensical.

Nokia *has* put 40 billion into R&D and it *does* have a wide patent of portfolios, but this is not their "argument" nor can it be. Those are just two facts, the argument they have has yet to be presented other than the plain fact that they think Apple infringes on those patents.

Are you what's considered "a stickler for details"?
post #5 of 42
There's a surprisingly informative analysis of this dispute over at Engagdet. It's definitely worth a read.
post #6 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Just to be picky

If you are a jobless lawyer, consider yourself hired very soon.
post #7 of 42
Well obviously.
post #8 of 42
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3510...re-of-qualcomm
http://www.sramanamitra.com/2008/05/...-and-qualcomm/

Apple is already paying close to $50/phone to the IPR holders for the use of UMTS/3G and GSM. Almost 10% of the phone price! I doubt that Apple went into the business without securing all licenses including Nokia. I suspect Nokia got seller's remorse and wants to jack up the royalties now that the iPhone is a big winner. Nokia also gets royalties from the chip suppliers.

Actually the current 3G/UMTS/WCDMA tech was based on QCOM's version of CDMA. Nokia and Ericsson first denied it would work. Then they went to court to nullify but lost... I remember it because I was holding a pile of the stock back in 98-99. In the end Nokia and the GSM cabal created UMTS to dilute QCOM patents and royalties.

I see big chance of Nokia loosing in court... Apple needs to make a example of them.
post #9 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Are you what's considered "a stickler for details"?

He is what some might consider: Informed and divorced from rabid Apple fanboism.
post #10 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

There's a surprisingly informative analysis of this dispute over at Engagdet. It's definitely worth a read.

Great article RichL. This has been circulated around for week or so but it pretty much sums it up. My friends in Commerce feel that Nokia has a leg to stand on because they are not going after the entire spectrum of IPR but very specific, easy to prove technologies. No matter who wins, the customer will not gain anything and the lawyers will continue their reign of terror on the justice system.
post #11 of 42
Think Nokia are some sort of deal where apple licenses some of apples patents to nokia in exchange for letting apple continue to use the ones they are suing over??
post #12 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch1984 View Post

Think Nokia are some sort of deal where apple licenses some of apples patents to nokia in exchange for letting apple continue to use the ones they are suing over??

Or they can let it play out, Nokia wins, Apple loses. Apple pays and then has to pay to license the technology. Now this would really suck for Apple.
post #13 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

There's a surprisingly informative analysis of this dispute over at Engagdet. It's definitely worth a read.

Apple buys components from companies like Infineon, Broadcom that already license pay royalties to the IPR holders like QCOM, Nokia, etc. I read that there is an additional $50/iPhone that Apple pays to the patent holders.

Anyway, Apple could buy the whole GSM/3G/WiFi module and just incorporate in the iPhone. Why should they have to pay additional royalties? Does a laptop manufacturer who sells a laptop with a WiFi card have to pay royalties on the whole laptop? Double dipping???

AnI smell a rate here. That endgadget article sounds like one written by Nokia shills... they like to use them.
post #14 of 42
Don't the companies that manufacturer the chips Apple uses in building an iPhone already pay for the patents on the technologies those chips incorporate? Or does Apple have some custom chips in the iPhone that they've designed that use the technologies in these patents?
post #15 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Just to be picky, you guys have used this phrase in two stories on the subject now and it's pretty much nonsensical.

Nokia *has* put 40 billion into R&D and it *does* have a wide patent of portfolios, but this is not their "argument" nor can it be. Those are just two facts, the argument they have has yet to be presented other than the plain fact that they think Apple infringes on those patents.

Just to be picky: corporate finance accounting is *always* an argument (nothing to do here with legal argument). And there is *nothing* in AI's quote suggests that Nokia doesn't have a wide patent portfolio.
post #16 of 42
While Nokia is tied up in court with Apple, the battle will go on for years and Apple will merrily continue with business as usual.
post #17 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

He is what some might consider: Informed and divorced from rabid Apple fanboism.

I will only grant you the former part of your description when it comes to Gazoobee.
post #18 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

While Nokia is tied up in court with Apple, the battle will go on for years and Apple will merrily continue with business as usual.

And what? Do you think Nokia will close down and move to the US? My God, how myopic a sentiment. Nokia will continue on as well. This is what they do.
post #19 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

Apple buys components from companies like Infineon, Broadcom that already license pay royalties to the IPR holders like QCOM, Nokia, etc. I read that there is an additional $50/iPhone that Apple pays to the patent holders.

Anyway, Apple could buy the whole GSM/3G/WiFi module and just incorporate in the iPhone. Why should they have to pay additional royalties? Does a laptop manufacturer who sells a laptop with a WiFi card have to pay royalties on the whole laptop? Double dipping???

AnI smell a rate here. That endgadget article sounds like one written by Nokia shills... they like to use them.

The funny thing about this entire thought process that if the shoe was on the other foot, it would be. Go get them Apple. Sue, sue, sue, but the moment it looks like Apple screwed the pooch and it really does, suddenly Apple can do no wrong.

So what if Apple pays patent holders. If they haven't paid Nokia, Apple has a problem and should be sued. It is that simple. Where have I seen the same kind of thinking? I know....
post #20 of 42
Quote:
This type of tit-for-tat approach has occurred in previous patent battles as each player tries to improve its negotiating position

Clarification: This type of tit-for-tat approach has occurred in every single patent battle of note. Saying that Apple is likely to counter-sue is akin to saying that on Monday night, I expect Pittsburgh to take the ball and try to score after each Bronco drive.

About the only time you don't see counter-suits, is when Patent Trolls are involved, because they do no research and produce no products, which gives them effectively zero exposure.
post #21 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

Apple buys components from companies like Infineon, Broadcom that already license pay royalties to the IPR holders like QCOM, Nokia, etc.

I don't think it's that clear cut. It depends on who owns the modem design. Is it an off the shelf component or was it a custom design owned by Apple, ala what console manufacturers do with their CPU/GPUs? Don't forget that these patents could also cover low-level software too. I don't know enough about the iPhone's internals to comment.

Quote:
AnI smell a rate here. That endgadget article sounds like one written by Nokia shills... they like to use them.

Got any proof to back up that claim or are you basing it solely on the fact that you don't agree with the laywer/writer's conclusion?
post #22 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

And what? Do you think Nokia will close down and move to the US?

When did I say that?

This will go on for years. Oh and yes, meanwhiel Nokia is in a bit of a downard spiral. Can't forget that. Not that it's related.
post #23 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

When did I say that?

This will go on for years. Oh and yes, meanwhiel Nokia is in a bit of a downard spiral. Can't forget that. Not that it's related.

I thought you were done with your statement. True that Nokia is in a downward spiral but this is to be expected. There are more choices in the market and many more consumers. For anyone, even the Nokia N/E-bots, to think otherwise is short sighted. They will remain on top by virtue of their size but they can kiss more than 40% market share goodbye.
post #24 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

I thought you were done with your statement. True that Nokia is in a downward spiral but this is to be expected. There are more choices in the market and many more consumers. For anyone, even the Nokia N/E-bots, to think otherwise is short sighted. They will remain on top by virtue of their size but they can kiss more than 40% market share goodbye.

Nokia, (WinMo), and RiM all seem to have been caught off guard by the market change. I think WinMo is the most problematic with a very capable Android OS available. Nokia and RiM will lose profits but have plenty of time, money and mindshare to find a way to get back into the game with more modern offerings.
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post #25 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

He is what some might consider: Informed and divorced from rabid Apple fanboism.

way to drop the f-bomb all the way from Helsinki! Does everybody in Finland work for Nokia?
post #26 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

way to drop the f-bomb all the way from Helsinki! Does everybody in Finland work for Nokia?

Way to ask a totally inane question based completely in ineptitude. Does someone working for the State Department mean that someone works for Nokia. They are handing out clues. Pick up a box.
post #27 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Nokia, (WinMo), and RiM all seem to have been caught off guard by the market change. I think WinMo is the most problematic with a very capable Android OS available. Nokia and RiM will lose profits but have plenty of time, money and mindshare to find a way to get back into the game with more modern offerings.

True dat.
post #28 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

True dat.

Any insights on the future on Maemo and any new HW offerings to compete with the upper-echelon if this new smartphone era?
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post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Any insights on the future on Maemo and any new HW offerings to compete with the upper-echelon if this new smartphone era?

Nothing much. I was lucky to have a few friends from Nokia (where I do not work by the way in case the challenged are listening) allow me to play with both the N97 Mini, and the N900. Both are nice. The N97 Mini is a smaller sister to a disastrous phone, in my opinion, the N97, while the N900 will appeal to the geek in you.
post #30 of 42
Moto, Nokia are yesterday's news. Moto dominated the 1st generation cellphone tech... yep, they were the top dog. Then came a disruptive tech and they got throw off the hill... Nokia WAS the top dog. Then came CDMA followed by the UMTS version WCDMA. That was totally disruptive to the GSM hegemony controlled by Nokia.

The market has certainly voted by market cap:
Moto = $21B -1G leader - Analog leader, sucking wind everywhere
Nokia = $49 - 2G leader - Mostly GSM patents with irrelevant patents on UMTS
QCOM= $73B - 3G leader - has key patents on 3G including CDMA/WCDMA/UMTS and LTE.

Apple has the killer app that drove the demand for broadband/3G. Until they showed with the iPhone, few bothered to use mobile broadband. I had an HTC Win Mobile. Totally useless, except for paper weight.

With tech, nobody stays at the top forever. Disruptive tech shows up and the new Gorilla takes over. Not like investing in Exxon, etc.
post #31 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

Moto, Nokia are yesterday's news. Moto dominated the 1st generation cellphone tech... yep, they were the top dog. Then came a disruptive tech and they got throw off the hill... Nokia WAS the top dog. Then came CDMA followed by the UMTS version WCDMA. That was totally disruptive to the GSM hegemony controlled by Nokia.

The market has certainly voted by market cap:
Moto = $21B -1G leader - Analog leader, sucking wind everywhere
Nokia = $49 - 2G leader - Mostly GSM patents with irrelevant patents on UMTS
QCOM= $73B - 3G leader - has key patents on 3G including CDMA/WCDMA/UMTS and LTE.

Apple has the killer app that drove the demand for broadband/3G. Until they showed with the iPhone, few bothered to use mobile broadband. I had an HTC Win Mobile. Totally useless, except for paper weight.

With tech, nobody stays at the top forever. Disruptive tech shows up and the new Gorilla takes over. Not like investing in Exxon, etc.

Please post these irrelevant UMTS patents, and by the way also post the key patents owned by QCom that aren't cross licensed by Nokia, Ericsson, Alcatel, and the other big boys.
post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

Nokia WAS the top dog. Then came CDMA followed by the UMTS version WCDMA. That was totally disruptive to the GSM hegemony controlled by Nokia.

Nokia = $49 - 2G leader - Mostly GSM patents with irrelevant patents on UMTS

Yes, GSM is irrelevant today in the world. CDMA has won the battle and all the TelCo's have changed their networks.

Funny comment

iPhone is CDMA, isn't?
post #33 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

Actually the current 3G/UMTS/WCDMA tech was based on QCOM's version of CDMA. Nokia and Ericsson first denied it would work. Then they went to court to nullify but lost... I remember it because I was holding a pile of the stock back in 98-99. In the end Nokia and the GSM cabal created UMTS to dilute QCOM patents and royalties.

I see big chance of Nokia loosing in court... Apple needs to make a example of them.

My God, please, inform you before writing such a uniformed claims.
post #34 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post

My God, please, inform you before writing such a uniformed claims.

If you want to find out the relevant patents do the research yourself. Anyway, the only reason UMTS got developed was to circumvent QCOM patents on CDMA. UMTS/3G is simply Wide band CDMA that is asynchronized. Instead of using 1.25 MHz channels, WCDMA uses 5 MHZ asynch channels that do not work very well under hi data loads. Voice and data go in the same WCDMA channel and it creates problems when the data load crowds out voice. That is what happens with ATT among other issues.

The reason QCOM had to x license its patents with Nokia was that UMTS got corrupted with Nokia and other GSM maker patents. Also, QCOM needed the GSM patents to make multi-mode chips.

I can see how these comments rile the folks in Finland. After all Nokia used to dominate the stock exchange and the economy there.

Apple got caught in this mess because everybody got to pile patents, whether essential or not into the UMTS. However, the market place has already decided who the winner and losers are.
post #35 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

Apple has the killer app that drove the demand for broadband/3G. Until they showed with the iPhone, few bothered to use mobile broadband. I had an HTC Win Mobile. Totally useless, except for paper weight.

Apple surely did that in the US and they seem to be the first to put a modern standards-based browser on a phone, but weren’t Japan, Korea and Europe using data pretty heavily before the iPhone’s arrival?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

Voice and data go in the same WCDMA channel and it creates problems when the data load crowds out voice. That is what happens with ATT among other issues.

Speaking of… Here is an article that claims AT&T’s data network usage has gone up ~5000% in the past 3 years. When you consider that the number of users hasn’t even doubled, or gone up 100% (anyone know the exact number?) it’s pretty amazing how much usage that is per phone on average.

http://www.networkworld.com/news/200...cities-in.html
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post #36 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Apple surely did that in the US and they seem to be the first to put a modern tandards-based browser on a phonem but werent Japan, Korea and Europe using data pretty heavily before the iPhones arrival?



Here is an article that claims AT&Ts data network usage has gone up ~5000% in the past 3 years. When you consider that the number of users hasnt even doubled, or gone up 100% (anyone know the exact number?) its pretty amazing how much usage that is per phone on average.
http://www.networkworld.com/news/200...cities-in.html

That was so easy. It must have been fun.....
post #37 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

I see big chance of Nokia loosing in court... Apple needs to make a example of them.

If you are going to continue to jump on your high horse and say exactly the same thing over and over again, can I please ask one thing of you, can you learn how to spell the word lose. I don't care if you spell anyother word wrong, but lose, and loose are very different words, with very different meanings
post #38 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AjitMD View Post

AnI smell a rate here. That endgadget article sounds like one written by Nokia shills... they like to use them.

As opposed to all the Apple fanbois posting without knowledge here?
post #39 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

..... it would be standard practice for Apple to countersue ....

If it's 'standard practice' to countersue, I wonder why we need experts to validate a headline such as: "Apple predicted to countersue".
post #40 of 42
i feel this has been SJ's plan since day 2 of the iphone rolling success
nokia is the #1 selling smart phone
divide and conquer
pressure nokia several ways put pressure on the sales side.....pressure from the expense side
and you dilute nokia's ability to spend on other things like patents, r and d etc
so what a way to weaken your foe
don't you think other licensee's are watching this?
if apple wins a lower rate others get that rate further diluting nokia's ability to spend and fight
time is on money's side, 30billion and no debt
if nokia did nothing it would be crushed faster, but this will linger SJ will continue the pressure then get others to join his fight, hey everyone wants a discount
SJ WIN WIN WIN position
this is an interesting strategy to fight the competition and SJ doesn't take prisoners
nokia's product line is weak, they know it and apple has tons of patents probably in the way that nokia wants to grow and move their products....SJ will probably let them wait at the door
so in two years whose market share will be greater. SJ has some other plans

what happens when they go to LTE?

next move......a merger.....nokia and ??????
it won't be google.....hmmm maybe MOTO.....Palm.....RIM?
wait i bet in less than 1 year their will be a merger.....

nokia wants this as bargaining power for something IT wants from apple.....hmmmmm what does apple have that nokia needs...
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