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Fallout of the Auto Bailout, and argument for free market...

post #1 of 108
Thread Starter 
I could have placed this in the Cash For Clunkers thread but instead decided to post it as a new topic.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20091...spunishingford

Ford has had a nice bump and a surprising return to profits in the midst of GM and Chrysler circling the drain.
Quote:
Ford attributes its better-than-expected performance--its first quarterly profit since 2005--to aggressive cost-cutting, popular new products like the Taurus sedan and Fusion hybrid, a cash-for-clunkers bump, and improvements at its financing arm. But Ford also is a clear beneficiary of the woes at GM and Chrysler, both trying to recover after bankruptcy filings earlier this year. Ford cited a market share gain of 2.2 percentage points compared with 2008, which helped offset a shrinking market. For a mature industry like the car business, that's a huge gain in a short period of time. And there's little doubt that many of Ford's new customers bailed on the other two domestic automakers as they shambled toward bankruptcy and wolfed down billions in taxpayers bailouts.

Due to government involvement however otherwise rosy news is overshadowed somewhat by more issues.
Quote:
But the domestic auto industry is still a mess, and the huge subsidies at Chrysler and GM could inhibit an overall return to profitability rather than accelerate it. The same dynamics are at play in the banking industry, where bailed-out giants like Citigroup, GMAC, and Bank of America are sitting on billions in reserves that healthier banks would be able to lend, stimulating a recovery. In the investment banking business, by contrast, the demise of Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers has left survivors like JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs nicely profitable, which--like it or not--has to happen if the overall economy is going to get healthy again. It's awful to watch companies fail and jobs disappear. But the alternative, we seem to be learning, is to watch them fail in slow motion, while contaminating those with the best chance to succeed.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #2 of 108
And now the UAW wants to do what can to see Ford fail. Why would it? It's the fast route to owning the company. With Obama helping out it's a lock.
post #3 of 108
Remember all those plans Chrysler had to begin producing green vehicles?

You know, the ones that were hyped so taxpayers in the U.S. and Canada would fork out billions to save the automakers as they retooled for the green economy.

I guess the taxpayers' cheque has cleared, so those plans aren't really important anymore.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #4 of 108
From Greg Mankiw's blog:
Quote:
President Obama's plan:
Quote:
What we are not doing -- what I have no interest in doing -- is running GM. GM will be run by a private board of directors and management team with a track record in American manufacturing that reflects a commitment to innovation and quality. They -- and not the government -- will call the shots and make the decisions about how to turn this company around.

So how is that working out for you, Mr President?
Quote:
In May, even before the government's ownership became official, lawmakers erupted when GM disclosed it planned to produce a new subcompact car at its factories in China. Under congressional pressure, GM dropped those plans and promised instead to retool an existing U.S. facility in Michigan, Wisconsin or Tennessee for the new model.

Lawmakers from those states demanded and received high-level meetings in Washington to quiz GM on the criteria for site selection and to tout their states. GM in the end picked a site in Michigan.

That same month, GM dealer Pete Lopez in Spencer, W.Va., received notice that GM was giving him just over a year to shut down his Chevy, Pontiac and Buick dealership, which he'd acquired two years earlier. GM's move to shutter more than 1,300 dealerships -- about one-quarter of its network -- was central to its restructuring because it cleared out underperforming showrooms and brought the network more in line with its shrunken sales.

With an assist from his mayor, Mr. Lopez took his complaint straight to one of his state's senators, Jay Rockefeller, the Democratic chairman of the powerful Commerce
Committee.

Sen. Rockefeller sent a letter to GM headquarters on Mr. Lopez's behalf, according to a staff aide. He arranged for Mr. Lopez to come testify before a Senate panel in early June, alongside GM Chief Executive Frederick "Fritz" Henderson. The senator introduced the two men, giving Mr. Lopez a chance to make a personal pitch.

"He couldn't have been nicer," Mr. Lopez said of the GM CEO. "He said to me, 'We've made some quick decisions and now we're going to look it all over again.' "

The GM chief executive put Mr. Lopez in touch with Mark LaNeve, then the company's top official for North American sales. The dealer received a response on the last Saturday in June while fishing on a lake near his house.

"Mr. LaNeve called and said, 'I've got some good news for you. We're going to save your dealership,' " Mr. Lopez recalls. He says he owes it all to Sen. Rockefeller.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #5 of 108
C'mon folks...I mean seriously...is there anyone, I mean anyone (with the exception of Obama-worshipers and apologists) that is even remotely surprised by this? This was as predictable as the sun rising in the east.
post #6 of 108
Thread Starter 
Not surprised, but definitely disappointed. I was happy to hear that For was doing so well. That they had managed to make a turnaround that looked to be working with little or no Federal funding.

People I worked with were talking about how they would never buy a GM or Chrysler because they took federal money and then squandered it, and I work for Daimler AG and still get Employee Discount on Chrysler vehicles. They would have to give the cars to people right now because they won't buy them.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #7 of 108
I just want GM and Crysler to fail S-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O badly, that it takes our federal government with them.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #8 of 108
ford started this path years ago, they now have very nice products have you seen the new fusion it actually looks "stylish" more so than the camry and accord, jd powers says and consumer reports gives camry average, and fusion above average, their hybrid does better than the camry
this give people pause to at least turn and consider ford products
GM will die the death of a hundred cuts, the bailout to the unions guaranteed that

as for chrysler---wow, here the government and supporters and obama's administration said so much about fighting jobs leaving america, so pompous, now they forced a deal in a week with
of all companies FIAT, to save the chrysler unions and their bosses (do they have to take a pay and bonus cut)
chrysler had no real products in the pipeline, and they had the worst quality and resale of the three detroit companies so we get fiats, fiat 500 will save chysler???? what koolaid are they drinking. ( FIAT OF ALL COMPANIES, has anyone here ever owned, or knew someone who owned a fiat--hit a puddle and it would short out...i push my friends fiat more miles than it drove.)

so long as the unions get their payback, chysler is dead they know it and the obama administration is content that they won't announce it till after 2010 elections

and i see chrysler dealership fall to the side and all those jobs gone forever
saturn, great customer service junk leadership from GM gone, gone gone
all those jobs lost too

and gee we as american tax payers spend/ borrowed from our grandchildren 24k per clunker car
to ARTIFICIALLY BUMB GDP TO SERVE THEIR NEW MASTER--OBAMA
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post #9 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I just want GM and Crysler to fail S-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O badly, that it takes our federal government with them.

i think a lot of people are regretting their decision to support this mess, so now our hope is they fail and people start focusing on individual freedom not this commune they are trying to shove down our throats. when lady aster asked stalin when the killing will stop he said when he is done.
the collective only works for those in power at our freedoms expense, once we lose it, we never get it back
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post #10 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

i think a lot of people are regretting their decision to support this mess, so now our hope is they fail and people start focusing on individual freedom not this commune they are trying to shove down our throats. when lady aster asked stalin when the killing will stop he said when he is done.
the collective only works for those in power at our freedoms expense, once we lose it, we never get it back

NOFEER.

Will you chill the fuck out?

Barack Obama is president for the next three to seven years. Then he will be gone. And you'll be free to elect Liz Cheney, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, or whoever the fuck you want.

Barack Obama is a moderate centre left politician with a reform agenda.

He is not Stalin. He is not Kim Il Sung.

Chill the fuck out.
post #11 of 108

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #12 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

ford started this path years ago, they now have very nice products have you seen the new fusion it actually looks "stylish" more so than the camry and accord, jd powers says and consumer reports gives camry average, and fusion above average, their hybrid does better than the camry this give people pause to at least turn and consider ford products GM will die the death of a hundred cuts, the bailout to the unions guaranteed that as for chrysler---wow, here the government and supporters and obama's administration said so much about fighting jobs leaving america, so pompous, now they forced a deal in a week with of all companies FIAT, to save the chrysler unions and their bosses (do they have to take a pay and bonus cut) chrysler had no real products in the pipeline, and they had the worst quality and resale of the three detroit companies so we get fiats, fiat 500 will save chysler???? what koolaid are they drinking. ( FIAT OF ALL COMPANIES, has anyone here ever owned, or knew someone who owned a fiat--hit a puddle and it would short out...i push my friends fiat more miles than it drove.) so long as the unions get their payback, chysler is dead they know it and the obama administration is content that they won't announce it till after 2010 elections and i see chrysler dealership fall to the side and all those jobs gone forever saturn, great customer service junk leadership from GM gone, gone gone all those jobs lost too and gee we as american tax payers spend/ borrowed from our grandchildren 24k per clunker car to ARTIFICIALLY BUMB GDP TO SERVE THEIR NEW MASTER--OBAMA

No periods and no capitalization either.

BTW your $24K/clunker is off by ever so small of a wee bit dollar-wise per clunker.

CARS

Quote:
These reports contain the transaction level information entered by participating dealers for the 677,081 CARS transactions that were paid or approved for payment as of Friday, October 16, 2009 at 3:00PM EDT for a total of $2,850,162,500.

$2,850,162,500/677,081 = $4.2K/clunker != $24K/clunker

You're only off by 470%

Obama is Hitler Part Deux!
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #13 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

NOFEER.

Will you chill the fuck out?

Barack Obama is president for the next three to seven years. Then he will be gone. And you'll be free to elect Liz Cheney, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, or whoever the fuck you want.

Barack Obama is a moderate centre left politician with a reform agenda.

He is not Stalin. He is not Kim Il Sung.

Chill the fuck out.

what exactly is a"moderate centre left politician".....code language for marxist
and see how many in his administration praise Mao, gee, freedom is coming i can feel it....

with the lags in our economy we will enter CARTER II in about 9-14 months.....you have to pay the piper , so how will we deal with all this debt, the depression didn't really start with the stock crash, it was government policies that turned a recession to a depression, same is happening here, the "cure" will be worse than the disease, but the point is a power grab---let's not let a good crisis go to waste.

i owe it to my dad's memory not to back down
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post #14 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

what exactly is a"moderate centre left politician".....code language for marxist and see how many in his administration praise Mao, gee, freedom is coming i can feel it....

Oh, and stop making stuff up out of thin air, unless you have a bona fide list of all those in the Obama administration who have praised Mao.

Someone hit me with a dumb stick, PLEASE!
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #15 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

what exactly is a"moderate centre left politician".....code language for marxist

Yes, that's right. 'Moderate centre left' is 'code language' for Marxist.

Like Tony Blair. He's one of those.

That's why Tony Blair revoked democracy, divided Britain into communes and dissolved Parliament, replacing it with representatives from the regional communes selected by central fiat before nationalising all the utilities and industries in the country. FREE BRITAIN! That's why the whole of Scandinavia huddles round the table listening to Radio Free Europe as they gnaw their potatoes, wishing for blue jeans and plasma TVs.

YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW WHAT A MARXIST EVEN IS, DO YOU?

Come back to reality and CHILL THE FUCK OUT. You'll have a new president in seven years, tops, and you can elect someone who'll make tax illegal and abolish social security altogether, and all that good stuff.

Jesus.
post #16 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW WHAT A MARXIST EVEN IS, DO YOU?

He's just fucking with you.
Got Dem written all over him.
post #17 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

what exactly is a"moderate centre left politician".....code language for marxist
and see how many in his administration praise Mao, gee, freedom is coming i can feel it....

The political spectrum in the US (or rather Washington DC) is offset to the right with respect to (most of the) the rest of the industrialized world; for example "moderate left" here is "centrist" abroad.

Obama's cabinet, fyi, is selected from mostly Wall St... the great bastion of Marxism.
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #18 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I just want GM and Crysler to fail S-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O badly, that it takes our federal government with them.

I wouldn't have minded watching Chrysler fail. It would have solved the North American overcapacity problem overnight.

Chrysler's most valuable properties, the Jeep and Minivan lines, would likely have been scooped up by Ford.

Now that would have been a long term solution for the North American auto industry.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #19 of 108
Dude, get a clue. \

But for information purposes, humor us, with how your income is directly linked to Chrysler. Since you referred to GM and Chrysles as "circling the drain" in your opening post.
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post #20 of 108
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post


Dude, get a clue. \

But for information purposes, humor us, with how your income is directly linked to Chrysler. Since you referred to GM and Chrysles as "circling the drain" in your opening post.

My employment is how, and beyond that is not any of your business.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #21 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

My employment is how, and beyond that is not any of your business.

Well then, given your opening post, it would appear that you do not have much faith in the soon to be defunct automaker formally known as Chrysler.
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post #22 of 108
In U.S. terms Obama is center-left, but in a global context he is center-right. Americans are blissfully ignorant of just how skewed to the right their political system is.
post #23 of 108
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Well then, given your opening post, it would appear that you do not have much faith in the soon to be defunct automaker formally known as Chrysler.

No, I do not.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #24 of 108
Since the OP references Ford's resurgence, I thought I'd post a review of what the [non-taxpayer owned] auto company has in the pipeline.

Looks good.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #25 of 108
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

No periods and no capitalization either.

BTW your $24K/clunker is off by ever so small of a wee bit dollar-wise per clunker.

CARS

$2,850,162,500/677,081 = $4.2K/clunker != $24K/clunker

You're only off by 470%

Actually Edmunds was the ones who made up that figure. You know, the Car values website...

Their ideas are documented on many opinion pieces. There were a lot of cars sold under CARS but how many new sales were actually spurred by the CARS program that would not have happened otherwise. Then you reach the ~$24K per vehicle price. But hey, it was a great program, and now it is over...

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index....0-per-car-sold
http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/28/auto...ney_topstories
http://www.sodahead.com/living/clunk...estion-704747/
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #26 of 108
The Auto Bailout One Year Later: Was It Necessary? Did It Work?

Notable quote:

Quote:
We can see that the bailout didn’t work, because after receiving bailout money from the Bush administration, and then another dose from the Obama administration, both companies declared bankruptcy in June anyway. And, because the bailout didn’t work, it’s easy to see that it wasn’t necessary.

Pretty clear explanation, there.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #27 of 108
It's just a sop to the unions. Bankruptcy court would have voided the contract and reopened negotiations.
post #28 of 108
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

It's just a sop to the unions. Bankruptcy court would have voided the contract and reopened negotiations.

That is why Ford is now looking at trouble on the horizon. Since they did not declare bankruptcy the unions working there are unlikely to negotiate much if at all in order to help keep the company financially stable...

Why negotiate? Things are going just fine... Right?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #29 of 108
You just can't make up irony like this.

U.S. taxpayers saved Goldman Sachs.
Goldman Sachs bankrolled the Chinese purchase of Swedish brand Volvo from American automaker Ford.
Chinese-made Volvos will soon be competing with U.S. automakers, including Ford.

If the risky venture succeeds, it will come at the expense of U.S. taxpayers who bailed out their Auto sector.
If the risky venture collapses, it will come at the expense of U.S. taxpayers who bailed out their Financial sector.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #30 of 108
This just in for March- "General Motors started off the parade, saying that sales of the four brands that it would continue to operate increased 43 percent and that its total sales rose 21 percent. Buick sales jumped 76 percent."
~ http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/bu...02auto.html?hp
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post #31 of 108
Way to ignore the point Hands.

Your own link says that the only reason demand jumped was that incentives of up to $700. per vehicle were being offered. Those low interest rates will be history very soon.

Nothing has changed here, except that taxpayers' pockets are a few billion dollars lighter.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #32 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Way to ignore the point Hands.

Your own link says that the only reason demand jumped was that incentives of up to $700. per vehicle were being offered. Those low interest rates will be history very soon.

Nothing has changed here, except that taxpayers' pockets are a few billion dollars lighter.

It's still encouraging news.

Here's how well GM is doing in China-

"Beijing (AP) - General Motors Co. said Friday (Oct 2009) it set a sales record in China in September and total sales for the first nine months of the year rose 55 percent to nearly 1.3 million vehicles.

GM and other global automakers are looking to China's fast-growing market to drive sales amid slack demand elsewhere. China's monthly sales have surpassed those of United States for all but two months this year.

GM and its Chinese joint-venture partners sold a total of 181,148 vehicles in September, the company said. It gave no comparative year-earlier figure.

"Sales continue to surpass forecasts as nearly all market segments experience growth," said GM China Group President Kevin Wale in a statement.

GM said September sales by its flagship joint venture, Shanghai GM, set a monthly record of 71,566 vehicles, while total sales for the first nine months of the year rose 40.2 percent from a year earlier."
~ http://www.cnsnews.com/news/print/55231
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post #33 of 108
Hands, how many of the workers in the joint Chinese/GM venture do you think are unionized under the UAW?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #34 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Hands, how many of the workers in the joint Chinese/GM venture do you think are unionized under the UAW?

China's labor laws are changing to give workers more rights, not the other way round. You can expect to see that changing for the better in the years ahead too. Some companies are moving out of China to places like Vietnam already that give their workers fewer rights, therefore they're more readily exploited for greater profits. Overall though I think China will do very well by raising their standards.
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post #35 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

China's labor laws are changing to give workers more rights, not the other way round. You can expect to see that changing for the better in the years ahead too. Some companies are moving out of China to places like Vietnam already that give their workers fewer rights, therefore they're more readily exploited for greater profits. Overall though I think China will do very well by raising their standards.

I'm sorry if it seems I am picky nits here, but I feel this is important. I understand it may seem like a subtle point but I think it is important.

Governments don't give people rights as you imply in your statement. They either protect them (sometimes), don't protect them (often) or infringe on them (often). But they don't give them. People have rights from birth.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #36 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'm sorry if it seems I am picky nits here, but I feel this is important. I understand it may seem like a subtle point but I think it is important.

Governments don't give people rights as you imply in your statement. They either protect them (sometimes), don't protect them (often) or infringe on them (often). But they don't give them. People have rights from birth.

Well you could also argue that people don't have any rights until their fought for and won, but hey each to their own.
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post #37 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

China's labor laws are changing to give workers more rights, not the other way round. You can expect to see that changing for the better in the years ahead too. Some companies are moving out of China to places like Vietnam already that give their workers fewer rights, therefore they're more readily exploited for greater profits. Overall though I think China will do very well by raising their standards.

That's a very nice point but doesn't address the question.

Japanese car makers do a great job with American workers. It is clear here that an American company can do a great job in tandem with chinese companies and workers. There is a clear common problem to all the unsuccessful scenarios.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #38 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Well you could also argue that people don't have any rights until their fought for and one

You could. But I wouldn't. One problem I would point out to you is that such an idea would appear to be in contradiction with the claims of the writers of the Declaration of Independence. Just something to think about if you go down that route.


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Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

but hey each to their own.

How post-modern of you.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #39 of 108
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Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

That's a very nice point but doesn't address the question.

Japanese car makers do a great job with American workers. It is clear here that an American company can do a great job in tandem with chinese companies and workers. There is a clear common problem to all the unsuccessful scenarios.

Yes, healthcare costs have been too high. Bring on single payer!
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #40 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

You could. But I wouldn't. One problem I would point out to you is that such an idea would appear to be in contradiction with the claims of the writers of the Declaration of Independence. Just something to think about if you go down that route.




How post-modern of you.

I think we're talking about different rights here.
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
"Islam is as dangerous in a man as rabies in a dog"~ Sir Winston Churchill. We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
Reply
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