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Fallout of the Auto Bailout, and argument for free market... - Page 2

post #41 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I think we're talking about different rights here.

OK. Can you elaborate on this?

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post #42 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

OK. Can you elaborate on this?

I shouldn't have to given it's so obvious, but anway.

If you work for a company and you sign a contract giving you healthcare and a certain amount of days off, those become your rights, at least in the context that we are talking.
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post #43 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I shouldn't have to given it's so obvious, but anway.

If you work for a company and you sign a contract giving you healthcare and a certain amount of days off, those become your rights, at least in the context that we are talking.

So you mean "contractual rights?" This seems to be a simple derivative of basic rights let's say to your life, and your liberty and your property (the product of your labor). Broken down, what's really happening in that situation is this:

Person A agrees to exchange some of their labor (which they "own" by their basic rights) for something that is either directly or indirectly some of someone else's labor (wages and benefits paid) given a certain set of parameters. This we call a contract. The government's enforcement of this voluntarily (non-coercively) agreed to contract it merely a protection of the basic rights on the side of both parties.

If A makes this agreement with B and B does not deliver on their part of the agreement after having received what A agreed to deliver, then B has effectively stolen from A or defrauded (a variant of theft) A. This would be a violation of A's basic rights.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #44 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

So you mean "contractual rights?" This seems to be a simple derivative of basic rights let's say to your life, and your liberty and your property (the product of your labor). Broken down, what's really happening in that situation is this:

Person A agrees to exchange some of their labor (which they "own" by their basic rights) for something that is either directly or indirectly some of someone else's labor (wages and benefits paid) given a certain set of parameters. This we call a contract. The government's enforcement of this voluntarily (non-coercively) agreed to contract it merely a protection of the basic rights on the side of both parties.

If A makes this agreement with B and B does not deliver on their part of the agreement after having received what A agreed to deliver, then B has effectively stolen from A or defrauded (a variant of theft) A. This would be a violation of A's basic rights.

Only if they signed the contract.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #45 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Only if they signed the contract.

OK. Maybe. In some legal frameworks a verbal agreement can be considered binding. However I don't believe any of that changes what I've said. You're talking about the mechanism of the agreement (signing a document). It could be any mechanism that is socially understood and accepted. The principle of the agreement and its relationship to the individual's rights remains fundamentally the same.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #46 of 108
So GM paid off the bailout money...with more bailout money?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #47 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

So GM paid off the bailout money...with more bailout money?

TARP bailed out GM?
Impossible, Bush & Boner and the Clown Possi would have screamed "SOCIALISM!!!" "government takeover of corporations," BLAHHH!!

Wasn't that what they said when GM got a loan and had to change direction with their product line up? They closed Saturn and Hummer and get rid of as much weight as possible. It seems possible they made some $ in the last year.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #48 of 108
Govt to lose $14B of auto bailout funds

Quote:
WASHINGTON – The Obama administration said Wednesday that the government will lose about $14 billion in taxpayer funds from the bailout of the U.S. auto industry.

In a report from the president's National Economic Council, officials said that figure is down from the 60 percent the Treasury Department originally estimated the government would lose following its $80 billion bailout of Chrysler and General Motors in 2009.

The report's release coincides with the administration's efforts to tout the bailout's role in the revitalization of the U.S. auto industry after last week's announcement that Chrysler is repaying $5.9 billion in U.S. loans and a $1.7 billion loan from the Canadian government. Those payments cover most of the federal bailout money that saved the company after it nearly ran out of cash in and went through a government-led bankruptcy.

GM previously announced that it had repaid a little more than half of the $50 billion it received in federal aid.
Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said U.S. auto companies are now at the forefront of a comeback in American manufacturing.

"We cannot guarantee their success, and at some point they may stumble. But we've given them a better shot," Geithner wrote in an opinion piece in Wednesday's edition of The Washington Post.

"While we will not get back all of our investments in the industry, we will recover much more than most predicted, and far sooner," he wrote.

Obama will visit a Chrysler plant in Ohio Friday to tout highlight the company's success.

GM and Chrysler were on the verge of collapse in the final days of the Bush administration after Congress failed to approve an emergency loan package. The Bush administration gave the companies $17.4 billion in loans and required them to develop a restructuring plan by mid-February 2009.

Obama's administration pumped billions more into the carmakers later that spring but won concessions from industry stakeholders, allowing it to push GM and Chrysler through bankruptcy court in the summer of 2009.

Huh?

Quote:
Obama will visit a Chrysler plant in Ohio Friday to tout highlight the company's success.

Losing $14 billion in tax money = success?

The Ministry of Truth must be running 24/7 these days just to keep up with the workload.

This unholy alliance between government and big business must end.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #49 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I could have placed this in the Cash For Clunkers thread but instead decided to post it as a new topic.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20091...spunishingford

Ford has had a nice bump and a surprising return to profits in the midst of GM and Chrysler circling the drain.
Due to government involvement however otherwise rosy news is overshadowed somewhat by more issues.

On another note, I thought I'd just tell everyone I've sworn off GM products. I should have learned my lesson after dealing with my 2003 GMC Envoy (fuel hog, horrible resale, wheel bearing blown at 40K). But after two Toyota Camrys, I needed a family-sized SUV. I heard great things about the GMC Acadia. I loved the styling and features. In Fall 2009, I found a used one with 15,000 miles for $10,000 less than sticker...all from a very reputable no-haggle dealer. I loved its ride, comfort, etc. It also had decent fuel economy for a fairly large SUV.

Well, the fun ended pretty soon. I traded it in for a Hyundai Sonata last night. In 20 months of ownership, the following happened:

1. Rear lift gate struts failed and were replaced under warranty.
2 "Service Air Bag" light came on. 1st attempt to fix at local dealer failed (cleaned connector).
3. Service Airbag attempt #2 failed...replaced seat belt tensioner. Same problem.
4. Servce Airbag attempt #3...hardwired whole system. Success.
5. Scratched the passenger door badly against a cement pole out of my sight. Fixed out of pocket.
6. Got rear-ended. Was other driver's fault. Insurance covered.
7. Passenger headlight capsule failed (not just the bulb). Replaced under "good will" warranty since it was 5,000 miles over.
8. Steering was clunking. Rebuilt with new rack bushings at 40,000 miles. Covered under same "good will" policy at local dealer.
9. Driver low-beam headlight failed. Bulb replaced of of pocket (not as cheap as you might think)
10. Water pump started leaking this memorial day, causing overheating. Needed to be replaced. Covered under powertrain warranty.

After the above (not all the car's fault, so to speak) my wife and I bailed. I leased the Hyundai Sonata 2.0 Turbo. Got 30 MPG in commuting traffic today, and my payment is lower. I also get all scheduled maintenance covered for the duration of the lease.

Why do I tell the above story? Perhaps if GM and Chrysler stopped making shitty cars, they wouldn't have needed to be bailed out?
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post #50 of 108
Eh, My GM has been running for 11 years and over 180,000 miles with very few problems. Anecdotes in either direction are meaningless. The two of us do not make a statistically significant sample.

 

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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #51 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Eh, My GM has been running for 11 years and over 180,000 miles with very few problems. Anecdotes in either direction are meaningless. The two of us do not make a statistically significant sample.

The fact that GM would have failed without government intervention is all the proof I really need that their products - as a whole - were crap.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #52 of 108
Ah yes, the simplistic look at the situation. Usually the best, am I right?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #53 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Ah yes, the simplistic look at the situation. Usually the best, am I right?

Ah yes, an ad-hom as a response. Usually the easiest, am I right?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #54 of 108
Whether it was quality, marketing, management incompetence, customer demand or cost structure...or a combination of all these...GM (and Chrysler) were on the decline. They were not competing effectively and profitably in the market. They should have both been allowed to go bankrupt. They could have emerged as a smaller, leaner, re-capitalized and probably more focused company.

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post #55 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Ah yes, an ad-hom as a response. Usually the easiest, am I right?

So any company that fails failed because of poor products. There were no other factors that could have played equal if not larger roles in the company's demise. Of course. Anything beyond that would be too nuanced and complicated to think about.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #56 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So any company that fails failed because of poor products. There were no other factors that could have played equal if not larger roles in the company's demise. Of course. Anything beyond that would be too nuanced and complicated to think about.

And now the straw-man. Well played.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #57 of 108
You, sir, took GM's near failure to mean that their products were all shit. Don't even try to turn this around on me. Don't be a tool.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #58 of 108
You took my one statement about GM and claimed that:
  • I was talking about "any company"
  • I said there are no other factors that could contribute to a company's failure
I never said either of those things.

You created a straw man argument after initiating an ad-hom attack.

Next time, just ask me to clarify or explain what I mean. It will make me more inclined to have a conversation with you.

But I seriously doubt you are interested in understanding my view or having a meaningful conversation with me, so I'm sure this will fall on deaf ears.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #59 of 108
Well, while the reasons for GM's brush with death can be debated for years, the reason for their continued existence leaves little room for speculation: Barack Obama needed to pay off some campaign favors to the UAW.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #60 of 108
Blah blah. You made a blanket statement about GM products based on flimsy reasoning. Try to defend it all you want by turning your attack dogs on me, but you fail at supporting your initial point at all. It still stands as a ludicrous statement.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #61 of 108
Of course it's ludicrous. That was the point. I'm sure GM made perfectly good vehicles that lasted a somewhat decent amount of time, so the "crap" statement was indeed an exaggeration on my part.

The fact is Toyota and other competitors ran their business more efficiently and made vehicles that more and more people preferred over GM's. GM couldn't compete. It would have failed if Obama hadn't bailed them out (and burned $14 billion in tax dollars in the process).

GM's vehicles weren't "crap", but it's evident their business was going down the crapper.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #62 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Govt to lose $14B of auto bailout funds



Huh?



Losing $14 billion in tax money = success?

The Ministry of Truth must be running 24/7 these days just to keep up with the workload.

This unholy alliance between government and big business must end.

The best part is from the MSNBC version of the story:

Quote:
Taxpayers will lose about $14 billion in the government's $80 billion bailout of Chrysler and GM, the White House said Wednesday, portraying the outcome as good news since the losses are far lower than originally anticipated.

This is becoming a common refrain from this administration. The stimulus worked...things didn't get better but they would have been worse if we didn't. Yes, unemployment increased...but things were worse than we thought.

Nothing this administration does is ever wrong...it's just that things would have been worse. A conveniently unprovable claim.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #63 of 108
I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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I APPLE THEREFORE I AM
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post #64 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

NOFEER.

Will you chill the fuck out?

Barack Obama is president for the next three to seven years. Then he will be gone. And you'll be free to elect Liz Cheney, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, or whoever the fuck you want.

Barack Obama is a moderate centre left politician with a reform agenda.

He is not Stalin. He is not Kim Il Sung.

Chill the fuck out.

I think you need to chill out, actually. That, and you need to learn what the American political spectrum is. It's different than Europe's to say the least. To Americans, he's super-liberal. In fact, he was the most liberal US Senator when elected, if I'm not mistaken. No one is comparing him to Stalin et al.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I wouldn't have minded watching Chrysler fail. It would have solved the North American overcapacity problem overnight.

Chrysler's most valuable properties, the Jeep and Minivan lines, would likely have been scooped up by Ford.

Now that would have been a long term solution for the North American auto industry.

Agreed. I might add the Dodge Ram. I've not seen many other Chrysler products that are built well. I know some that are complete and utter crap.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

It's just a sop to the unions. Bankruptcy court would have voided the contract and reopened negotiations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I shouldn't have to given it's so obvious, but anway.

If you work for a company and you sign a contract giving you healthcare and a certain amount of days off, those become your rights, at least in the context that we are talking.

Ding ding ding ding! We have a winner. This was nothing but a union bribe. I'm sure the fact that Obama gave GM to the unions won't hurt his chances of getting them to vote for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Eh, My GM has been running for 11 years and over 180,000 miles with very few problems. Anecdotes in either direction are meaningless. The two of us do not make a statistically significant sample.

Man, you have to be confrontational about EVERYTHING, don't you? I realize that. I was just sharing my experiences. Speaking for myself alone, I'm done with GM.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #65 of 108
One bad experience and you give up on a company forever? Does that translate anywhere else in life? One fight and you divorce your wife? One bad relationship so you give up on all women?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #66 of 108
And the award for terrible equivalencies goes to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

One bad experience and you give up on a company forever? Does that translate anywhere else in life? One fight and you divorce your wife? One bad relationship so you give up on all women?



See this is one of the dynamics of a free market. The more expensive the good, and the more screwed you feel by the seller, the more likely you are to stay away for a long, long time. Great incentive for those companies to consistently make great products rather than get sloppy, lazy and take customers for granted and let competitors (like Toyota, et al) eat your lunch.

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post #67 of 108
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

One bad experience and you give up on a company forever? Does that translate anywhere else in life? One fight and you divorce your wife? One bad relationship so you give up on all women?

Do you own stock in GM?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #68 of 108
No. I simply question SDW's overreaction.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #69 of 108
I love how liberals are anti-corporate for 95% of the week, and then abruptly turn around and defend flushing $14 billion dollars of taxpayer funds to an ill-conceived corporate bailout.

Memo to the left: you don't understand how the economy works. Bankruptcy is not some scary right-wing menace. It is a way of re-pricing corporate assets to reflect new and changing economic realities.

Auto plants, tools and skilled workforces do not disappear after a bankruptcy. The fact is that with the new Korean auto industry entrants, the U.S. can only support two major automakers. It would have been far, far better to have Chrysler's Jeep and Minivan nameplates moved over to Ford (and use the 300 as part of a new high-end line) than to simply repackage three lacklustre automakers in business.

Obamanomics won't work here and in a decade or two we'll be back to where we started. The hard fact is that there was an opportunity to restructure the North American industry that's now lost.

Unbelievably, in a time when Acura is actually on the ropes, we have almost permanently ceded the upscale auto industry to foreign nameplates.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #70 of 108
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

No. I simply question SDW's overreaction.

It is fully understandable. With big ticket items it is hard to take what appears to be poor quality and not react that way. There are many choices in the industry. If one maker is seemingly a poor choice, try another. I will never buy a Kia after my sisters turned out to be a lemon. Are all kia vehicles lemons? No. But I will still never buy one. My dodge minivan has had many stupid issues that just scream poor quality. But the engine has been strong and the drivetrain has been good so far. If one of those fails, my opinion of Dodge vehicles will take a huge hit. I also have a Lexus. That vehicle has been the epitome of reliability. (helps that's it was given to me or I never would have bought it). But the vehicle is expensive to work on. Tires are a huge cost and dealer work is ridiculous. But I have never had a major repair and I have done the brakes, light changes and oil changes myself. Makes me think highly of Toyota products.

It might be an overreaction. But we react to what we believe. Similar to how you react to religious people at times.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #71 of 108
Except the overreaction demonstrates a lack of critical thought--which makes sense coming from religious people.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #72 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

I love how liberals are anti-corporate for 95% of the week, and then abruptly turn around and defend flushing $14 billion dollars of taxpayer funds to an ill-conceived corporate bailout.

Memo to the left: you don't understand how the economy works. Bankruptcy is not some scary right-wing menace. It is a way of re-pricing corporate assets to reflect new and changing economic realities.

Auto plants, tools and skilled workforces do not disappear after a bankruptcy. The fact is that with the new Korean auto industry entrants, the U.S. can only support two major automakers. It would have been far, far better to have Chrysler's Jeep and Minivan nameplates moved over to Ford (and use the 300 as part of a new high-end line) than to simply repackage three lacklustre automakers in business.

Obamanomics won't work here and in a decade or two we'll be back to where we started. The hard fact is that there was an opportunity to restructure the North American industry that's now lost.

Unbelievably, in a time when Acura is actually on the ropes, we have almost permanently ceded the upscale auto industry to foreign nameplates.

Bingo!

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #73 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

One bad experience and you give up on a company forever? Does that translate anywhere else in life? One fight and you divorce your wife? One bad relationship so you give up on all women?

No, multiple experiences. That car was the latest. I had an Envoy ("professional grade") that blew a wheel bearing at 40,000 miles and was HORRID on gas. My ex's Grand Am needed new or recut rotors every 10,000 miles. My ex brother-in-law had all kinds of brake problems with his mid-nineties Grand Am at the time. Incidentally, my Hyundai only needs service every 7,500 miles. Reliability is one reason they are now outselling Toyota.
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post #74 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Except the overreaction demonstrates a lack of critical thought--which makes sense coming from religious people.

"Lack of critical thought?" So I should keep going with GM products, expecting a different result?
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post #75 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

"Lack of critical thought?" So I should keep going with GM products, expecting a different result?

Well, first you should research how aberrant your bad experience was. In the future, do your homework about whatever product line you intend to purchase. Come on, you really can't think of that on your own? You really think this is a blind "BUHHH, BUY TIME HURRR" or "SHUNNNNNNNNNN THE EVIL GM CARS SHUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!" dichotomy?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #76 of 108
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Well, first you should research how aberrant your bad experience was. In the future, do your homework about whatever product line you intend to purchase. Come on, you really can't think of that on your own? You really think this is a blind "BUHHH, BUY TIME HURRR" or "SHUNNNNNNNNNN THE EVIL GM CARS SHUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!" dichotomy?

He just gave about 3 other examples. Did you not read that?

I just realized, this is because GM was bailed out by the gov't that you are acting like this. Why else would you be so offended by his post that was really not that offensive? You are really going overboard for no other possible reason. Unwind dude, it is just a car preference.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #77 of 108
Statists get really defensive where government is concerned.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #78 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Memo to the left: you don't understand how the economy works.

Understand? Understanding requires thought. Feeling requires nothing.

Quote:
Bankruptcy is not some scary right-wing menace. It is a way of re-pricing corporate assets to reflect new and changing economic realities.

Almost every major airline has been restructured through BK. They're still around, only they're much more efficient than ever, and better able to respond to "new and changing economic realities" such as > $100 oil. Meanwhile, GM and Chrysler continue to exist so they can build shitty products that no one wants. Thank you Obama.

This debacle cost about $200 for every taxpayer (there are about 138M tax filers in the US, about half of whom actually pay anything). Next time you pull the D lever, think about what it's going to cost you. Oh yeah, the left is unable to think...
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post #79 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Well, first you should research how aberrant your bad experience was. In the future, do your homework about whatever product line you intend to purchase. Come on, you really can't think of that on your own? You really think this is a blind "BUHHH, BUY TIME HURRR" or "SHUNNNNNNNNNN THE EVIL GM CARS SHUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!" dichotomy?

First, I think you should really seek some anger and anxiety management. There is no reason for you to be this worked up. Secondly, I did give multiple other examples. I also researched the vehicle I purchased. The fact is that it was a lemon. And as I just stated, it's not the first one I've seen.

I agree that there must be some reason you're attacking like this. You can't possibly just be taking issue with my choice of car brand and statement that I've had enough bad experiences with one in paricular...can you?
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #80 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Do you own stock in GM?

That's the problem. We all do.

Meanwhile, our beneficent and all-knowing Government is desperately seeking to rid itself of that pig, locking in a certain loss for all of us: U.S. Hurries to Sell GM Stake. This, despite Obama's assurance that the bailout was a wise investment:

Quote:
When President Obama gave GM this money, he insisted that it was not a handout but an “investment” that would cost taxpayers “not a dime.”

General Motors Will Never Repay Taxpayers: Obama's spin on GM's latest profit report is pure baloney

So, was Obama lying, or is he simply a buffoon? I'll go with the latter.

Why did we elect this dolt?
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