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Fallout of the Auto Bailout, and argument for free market... - Page 3

post #81 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

He just gave about 3 other examples. Did you not read that?

I just realized, this is because GM was bailed out by the gov't that you are acting like this. Why else would you be so offended by his post that was really not that offensive? You are really going overboard for no other possible reason. Unwind dude, it is just a car preference.

No, it has nothing to do with the bailout. I just find irrationality especially irksome. Anecdotal evidence does not a reliable statistic make.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #82 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Anecdotal evidence does not a reliable statistic make.

Yes, I recall you taking tonton to task for this in another thread when he was using anecdotal examples to make his case.

What's even better than anecdotes are hypotheticals.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #83 of 108

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #84 of 108

Treasury: U.S. to lose $25 billion on auto bailout

 

 

Quote:
Washington -The Treasury Department says in a new report the government expects to lose more than $25 billion on the $85 billion auto bailout. That's 15 percent higher than its previous forecast.
 
In a monthly report sent to Congress on Friday, the Obama administration boosted its forecast of expected losses by more than $3.3 billion to almost $25.1 billion, up from $21.7 billion in the last quarterly update.
 
The report may still underestimate the losses. The report covers predicted losses through May 31, when GM's stock price was $22.20 a share.
 
On Monday, GM stock was trading down 6 cents, or 0.2 percent, to $20.49. At that price, the government would lose another $850 million on its GM bailout.
 
The government still holds 500 million shares of GM stock and needs to sell them for about $53 each to recover its entire $49.5 billion bailout.
 
Treasury spokesman Matt Anderson said the costs were still far less than some predicted.
 
"The auto industry rescue helped save more than one million jobs throughout our nation's industrial heartland and is expected to cost far less than many had feared during the height of the crisis," Anderson said.
 
The Obama administration initially estimated it would lose $44 billion on the bailout but reduced the forecast to $30 billion in December 2009.
 
Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney has decried the losses on the auto bailout and insisted that forcing GM and Chrysler Group LLC to go through bankruptcy first would have saved taxpayers money.
 
But President George W. Bush — who gave the automakers and their finance arms about $25 billion in his final weeks in office in bailout funds — said there wasn't time.
 
Taxpayers incurred a $1.3 billion loss on the $12.5 billion bailout of Chrysler.
 
The Treasury also has put on hold an initial public offering initially planned for last year in Ally Financial Inc. because of market weakness. The government holds a 74 percent majority stake in the Detroit auto finance company as part of its $17.2 billion bailout and has recovered $5.7 billion.
 
GM CEO Dan Akerson told employees at a town hall meeting Thursday that the company was working to take actions to boost the automaker's sagging price.

 

I really don't know how anyone can look at the facts and call the auto bailouts anything but a giant ponzi scheme.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #85 of 108

BIG NUMBERS SCARY!  Look at the bigger picture, though.  What would the cost be to America in the long term if we had lost GM & Chrysler completely?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #86 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

What would the cost be to America in the long term if we had lost GM & Chrysler completely?

 

There's no way for us to really know that, is there?

 

My opinion is that nature abhors a vacuum. From the ashes of the American auto companies' deserved collapse would have risen even better auto companies to take their place. In order to be successful, these companies would have had to actually make products people wanted to buy without being propped up by the government or bribing customers with their own money in the form of tax credits.

 

But I digress.

 

Here's what we do know: the cost of the auto bailouts American taxpayers is at least $25 billion, and probably many times that figure in reality.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #87 of 108

Factor in the job losses, the unemployment that would have resulted, the losses in revenue, and the increases in welfare until your magical new auto companies ramp up--if they even would.  It's not like there's a shortage of well-built, cheap, foreign automobiles.  There's no reason to assume that big new American auto manufacturers would have been born from this collapse.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #88 of 108

You're assuming the auto companies would have completely disappeared. Structured bankruptcy plans could have prevented that, mitigating job losses to some degree, while still providing an opening for new car companies to emerge with competitive offerings.

 

There's no reason to assume that big new American auto manufacturers wouldn't have been born from this collapse.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #89 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

There's no reason to assume that big new American auto manufacturers would have been born from this collapse.

 

True enough. But who cares? It need not be car companies that get birthed out of this capital re-allocation. Perhaps new, emerging industries now have more access to capital. Maybe some things that are trying to get started that we don't know much about right now.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #90 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You're assuming the auto companies would have completely disappeared. Structured bankruptcy plans could have prevented that, mitigating job losses to some degree, while still providing an opening for new car companies to emerge with competitive offerings.

 

There's no reason to assume that big new American auto manufacturers wouldn't have been born from this collapse.

The whole point behind the government bailouts was that there wasn't the private capital out there due to the banking crisis.  

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #91 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The whole point behind the government bailouts was that there wasn't the private capital out there due to the banking crisis.  

 

So now we have another good reason to have not done the bailouts. The lack of capital is a signal...a message. The market was sending a message that investments needed to be liquidated, bankruptcies needed to happen. There had been a mis-allocation of capital and that needed to be cleaned up and re-allocated. This original mis-allocation had occurred because of previous faulty signals sent by The Fed's monetary policies of low interest rates and cheap credit that cause investments to be made that might not have otherwise been made.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #92 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

The whole point behind the government bailouts was that there wasn't the private capital out there due to the banking crisis.  

 

That was the explanation given by government officials, yes.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #93 of 108

And **** the poor saps who lose their jobs, health insurance, homes, and families.  Everyone for themselves!

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #94 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And **** the poor saps who lose their jobs, health insurance, homes, and families.  Everyone for themselves!

 

I'm explaining the reality to you. You seem to believe that our sympathies for the people caught in this unfortunate situation can somehow suspend reality. You also don't seem to realize that the actions taken did not solve any problems at all they merely painted them over...they kicked the can further down the road at which time, when something similar happens, many will be even more frustrated and angry.

 

The real problem here is the roller coaster that the Fed's actions have taken the economy on. It is a socialist/fascist institution that is attempting to "control" and "manage" the economy while only creating more distortions, instability and slowly stealing from the poor, old and people on relatively fixed incomes by its continual devaluation of the currency. Your quarrel is with them. Your action should be to stop them from further actions that do this kind of thing to the economy and negatively affect so many unsuspecting people.

 

Or just pound your fists on the table and scream about how unfair it all is and continue blaming the proximate causes and remain indifferent to the ultimate causes that will keep creating these problems.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #95 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

BIG NUMBERS SCARY!  Look at the bigger picture, though.  What would the cost be to America in the long term if we had lost GM & Chrysler completely?

 

That was never an option.
 

It's my personal opinion (and I've said this before) that America would have been far better off if Chrysler had been allowed to go under and the valuable Jeep and Minivan brands had been absorbed by the remaining two automakers.

 

I find it funny that liberals defend the bailouts by citing American economic interests, usually without realizing that they sold off America's most famous auto brands to the Italians.

The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #96 of 108

Look, we all know why Obama bailed out GM and Chrysler. It is no great secret or mystery. And it had nothing to do with the armageddon-esque predictions of what would happen to the economy.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #97 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And **** the poor saps who lose their jobs, health insurance, homes, and families.  Everyone for themselves!

 

You are assuming that GM and Chrysler would have gone Chapter 7.  That was not going to happen.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #98 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

 

You are assuming that GM and Chrysler would have gone Chapter 7.  That was not going to happen.  

 

Why not?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #99 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Why not?

 

I'd say he's probably correct.

 

Chapter 7 is an all out liquidation. There's no more business, we'r done and selling everything off and paying off creditors.

 

Chapter 11 is a re-org stage where the business is likely to be re-born (usually as a new legal entity...which is key in this case in particular), smaller, leaner, with changes ordered by a judge and/or creditors. Probably new management. Etc.

 

Chapter 11 was the most likely route in this case.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #100 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

 

I'd say he's probably correct.

 

Chapter 7 is an all out liquidation. There's no more business, we'r done and selling everything off and paying off creditors.

 

Chapter 11 is a re-org stage where the business is likely to be re-born (usually as a new legal entity...which is key in this case in particular), smaller, leaner, with changes ordered by a judge and/or creditors. Probably new management. Etc.

 

Chapter 11 was the most likely route in this case.

 

Darn it, you stole my thunder. But yes, this is an important distinction that is oft overlooked.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #101 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Darn it, you stole my thunder. But yes, this is an important distinction that is oft overlooked.

 

Fact is, what they did is what could best be called a "modified" Obama-managed chapter 11 in which the normal rules that would have applied were selectively applied in favor of the UAW. These were a bailout of the UAW.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #102 of 108

Yeah, how dare the workers not get fucked!?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #103 of 108

Hi BR. How are you?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #104 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Yeah, how dare the workers not get fucked!?

 

Don't confuse the UAW with "workers."  Workers did not put GM into the position it was in.  The UAW did.  Workers did not screw the secured GM bondholders.  The UAW--with blessing of the government--did.  GM and Chrysler would have gone Chapter 11 and reorganized, which is exactly what Romney meant by "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt."  This would have been best for everyone.  Instead, Obama paid back Big Labor by giving it the very company they destroyed.  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Hi BR. How are you?

 

lol.gif

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #105 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

 

Darn it, you stole my thunder. But yes, this is an important distinction that is oft overlooked.

 

Not sure what "thunder" you're referring to.  I assumed that we all knew the difference between Chapter 7 and Chapter 11.  

I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #106 of 108

I see the tactics of divide & conquer have worked quite well on you, SDW.  Hate on the unions and get angry at the union members' benefits.  You fall right into the elite's trap.  The obscenely wealthy take the vast majority of the cookies and then point at the union or minority worker and shout, "He's taking more than his fair share!"

 

Scott Walker admitted that divide & conquer is the Republican strategy.  Sadly, it worked in Wisconsin just as it has worked on you.  

 

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #107 of 108
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #108 of 108

GM wants out of government, Obama says no

 

 

Quote:
The Treasury Department is resisting General Motors' push for the government to sell off its stake in the auto maker, The Wall Street Journal reports. Following a $50 billion bailout in 2009, the U.S. taxpayers now own almost 27% of the company. But the newspaper said GM executives are now chafing at that, saying it hurts the company's reputation and its ability to attract top talent due to pay restrictions. Earlier this year, GM GM -1.45%  presented a plan to repurchase 200 million of the 500 million shares the U.S. holds with the balance being sold via a public offering. But officials at the Treasury Department were not interested as selling now would lead to a multibillion dollar loss for the government, the newspaper noted.

 

 

American Taxpayer's loss on GM stock investment: over $14.5 billion (as of today)

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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