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Politically Correct? - Page 2

post #41 of 57
Couple of points:

1. The statue will be erected (that is if all this B.S. doesn't stop) in front of the NYFD building...not Ground Zero. Ground Zero will probably be the WTC fragment they tore down.

2. Once anyone puts on a fireman's uniform they become a fireman. Not black, white, hispanic, asian, american indian or female...a fireman.

3. Put up the damn statue. It's not like its firemen in a container if piss. It's art. It's a representation of something not someone.

4. The photo of the firemen at grand zero was posed. I heard that the photographer asked them to go back up and then he re-shot it.
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post #42 of 57
[quote]
1. The statue will be erected (that is if all this B.S. doesn't stop) in front of the NYFD building...not Ground Zero. Ground Zero will probably be the WTC fragment they tore down.<hr></blockquote>

which is a great reason why it should accurately portray the firemen who did it.

[quote]
2. Once anyone puts on a fireman's uniform they become a fireman. Not black, white, hispanic, asian, american indian or female...a fireman.<hr></blockquote>

this is even more support to why the race of two of the three should not have been changed.

[quote]
3. Put up the damn statue. It's not like its firemen in a container if piss. It's art. It's a representation of something not someone.<hr></blockquote>

I think it means a little more to the firemen and the people who have been affected by this tragedy and I don't we need race equality by changing history to be forfront in a statue in memorial of the event

[quote]
4. The photo of the firemen at grand zero was posed. I heard that the photographer asked them to go back up and then he re-shot it.<hr></blockquote>

I haven't heard that. There were two photographers though. One was on the ground and one was in the air. it may have been posed in the sense that they told people they were going to do it and gave the photographer(s) a chance to get ready
post #43 of 57
<a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry011402.shtml" target="_blank">A Monument to PC</a>

January 14, 2002 2:30 p.m.

[quote]In Stalinist Russia, they used to airbrush out officials once they became politically inconvenient. Something similar is now happening to the famous Sept. 11 photo of three white firefighters hoisting the flag at Ground Zero.

Of course, no one would have thought to call them "white firefighters" until just a few days ago...

Everyone who knows the famous picture and sees the new statue will now think about race. It will become a monument to political correctness, rather than to duty and sacrifice, the two virtues to which all firefighters on Sept. 11 gave their lives...<hr></blockquote>

[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
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post #44 of 57
Oh God here we go again. Why are New Yorkers so damn whiny. When you signed on to the NYFD...when you become a member of New Yorks Bravest...no one promised you'd be a legend. You're expected to put out fires...end of story. You could put 3 chimps in there for all I care it was a staged photo and while I like the artistry I don't hold it sacred. "United We Stand.....err unless we have a disagreement over who's getting credit" should be the new mantra. This subject and thread is disgusting...many have given up much more for our country yet we see American is still America...the land of no humility.
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post #45 of 57
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:

<strong>Oh God here we go again. Why are New Yorkers so damn whiny. When you signed on to the NYFD...when you become a member of New Yorks Bravest...no one promised you'd be a legend. You're expected to put out fires...end of story.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fine. That still doesn't justify the hijacking of this memorial. Why was injected race into a story that wasn't about race?
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post #46 of 57
Oh jeez...it is a fireman (white) who has a beef about it.

You didn't hear the surviving soldiers who raised the flag in Iwo Jima demanding that their statue's likenesses be more toward what they look like.

Go ahead, make them all white and see what happens then...God, my head's spinning over all this PC garbage... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
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post #47 of 57
[quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:

<strong>You didn't hear the surviving soldiers who raised the flag in Iwo Jima demanding that their statue's likenesses be more toward what they look like.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The Iwo Jima statue wasn't deliberately altered to express something that wasn't in the original photo.

[quote]<strong>Go ahead, make them all white and see what happens then... </strong><hr></blockquote>

You can't do that now. It would a disaster. That's what is so irritating to me about this. I have no problem discussing race issues. But every damn thing doesn't have to be about race. That photo wasn't about race. It was about something else entirely. But the statue will be about race perhaps even more than the event it is supposed to depict.
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post #48 of 57
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>The Iwo Jima statue wasn't deliberately altered to express something that wasn't in the original photo.</strong><hr></blockquote>Someone earlier in the thread says that it was different from the actual event - the flag was made larger. If that is true, why would changing the flag be any less reprehensible than changing people's facial features?
post #49 of 57
[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:

<strong>If that is true, why would changing the flag be any less reprehensible than changing people's facial features?</strong><hr></blockquote>

How did changing the size of the flag introduce an unrelated issue into what was being depicted?

This controversy has reached it's end for me. Earlier in this thread I mentioned the historical/political context that art often addresses. This statue doesn't inhabit the same context as does the source photo. I think the departure is unfortunate although I must also admit that sight unseen the statue must already be considered a sucess. It clearly does represent the perverse and obsessive preoccupation we have with race.

Last week when pscates wrote that fairly long story about why he doesn't like people I immediately thought of a friend. "If that happened to Manny (not his real name) he'd say it was due to racism." Maybe you think I'm being unfair to my friend. Well, I've been down that road too many times. I don't think I am. More to the point, not everything is about race although many people insist on injecting that issue into just about every public debate they can.
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post #50 of 57
Changing a representation of a widely circulated photo - bad idea.

Comparing WTC flag raising in the same light as the Iwo Jima flag raising - bad idea.

My understanding is that the Iwo Jima flag raising was recreated after the shooting stopped. The first flag was smaller, yes, and the men in the recreation were not all the same as the ones who did it in the midst of the battle. (or none were?) I would speculate that it wasn't possible for the photographer to capture the initial event, or at least not to his liking for one or a variety of artistic reasons.

The WTC picture is one of mourning, not conquest or defiance of a deadly enemy. Those are two very different things.

I imagine the relatives of the fallen firefighters, no matter their race, look at that photo and feel pride in their country, their fallen loved ones, and the fraternity of firefighters. I don't imagine they care that all three guys are white. I suspect they might feel the alteration of who these three men were in a statue would not show them their due respect.

Like others have said, let the artist be creative and craft a scene that is plausible, rather than copy something already done, but change the faces to address some type of diversity agenda. That takes no imagination at all.
post #51 of 57
The flag raising image from Iwo Jima was not a recreation. It was the second raising after the first was taken down for being too small, but it was not merely a photo op. And the battle was still raging, though not so much at that place.

A sensitive memorial would be aware of any watering down or diverting of the uniqueness of the WTC events and tragedy by not even coming close to making a work that can be so easily cross-referenced to precursors.

I think that re-presentational imagery in the face of this kind of phenomena is bound to fail, or bound to miss the mark.

Our emotions shouldn't be steered in any one direction for us. We should remember the way that each of us can, not the way some bad artist wants us to feel, with images from their weak imagination filled with slow-motion heroism. THe tragedy is deeper than that.

The film that accompanies the Iwo Jima flag raising is really powerfull.. And the reason is, is because it is so anti-sensationalistic compared to the heroism confered to the photo. In the film they put up the flag. It takes about five seconds and its done. just like that. No fanfare . . .that, to me is so much more powerfull, because it tells a real story with real humans in real time, and ,is surprisinging in its relative casualness and humanity. THat's what real heroism is like, with real people: like Ira Jones... et al. Not slowmo fantasies

[ 01-17-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #52 of 57
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:

<strong>The film that accompanies the Iwo Jima flag raising is really powerfull.. And the reason is, is because it is so anti-sensationalistic compared to the heroism confered to the photo. In the film they put up the flag. It takes about five seconds and its done. just like that. No fanfare . . .</strong><hr></blockquote>

And the photographer had no idea of the import of the photo (beyond the documenting of an important event) when he took it.
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post #53 of 57
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>The flag raising image from Iwo Jima was not a recreation. It was the second raising after the first was taken down for being too small, but it was not merely a photo op. And the battle was still raging, though not so much at that place.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I've now heard so many versions of those events, I don't know which one to believe. My source was a poor one, a discussion between journalists on the radio, thus not cited above. But I made the effort to state that my understanding was not authoritative. Your source is also not cited. I'd love to get the straight story from a reputable source, like at least two people who were there, and agreement between them.
post #54 of 57
[quote]Originally posted by Gregg:

<strong>I'd love to get the straight story from a reputable source, like at least two people who were there, and agreement between them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There was something on the History channel recently that did just that. Pfflam's version is correct.

[ 01-18-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
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post #55 of 57
I've read about it in several histories of Iwo Jima, also in a story about Ira Jones, the American Indian who was one of teh flag raisers who became somewhat famous but still died pennyless and drunk in a ditch . . .also that "stirring" book 'The Flags of Our Fathers' is all about Iwo Jima and the survivors.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #56 of 57
There are so many races and nationalities in this country 3 doesn't cut it. What about asian firefighters, Indians, etc etc? I think the statue was well meaning, though. I find the statue far less annoying than reverse discrimination...............
post #57 of 57
The statue will not be made now.

The FDNY received an enormous amount of criticism from both civilians, the press and the firefighters.

The firefighters has a couple thousand signature petition t prevent the construction of it.

The Daily News said never before had they received such an overhwelmingly one sided response from their readers against something.

It certainly struck a nerve in people and now the FDNY officials look like a bunch of asses.

Now a new statue "that depicts all races" will be constructed
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