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Doom game creator suggests Apple embarrassed about iPhone gaming - Page 5

post #161 of 185
11/8/09 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

John Carmack, creator of the classic PC game Doom, described working with Apple as a "rollercoaster ride," and suggested that company executives are not happy about the popularity of gaming on the iPhone and iPod touch.

In an interview with gaming website Kotaku, John Carmack revealed that top executives at Apple do not look fondly on the growing popularity of games on the iPod Touch and iPhone.

"At the highest level of Apple, in their heart of hearts," Carmack reportedly said, "they're not proud of the iPhone being a game machine, they wish it was something else."…With more and more established console game companies such as Electronic Arts, id Software, and Konami making serous forays into App store gaming, it seems like the iPhone/Touch will continue to be major players in the world of handheld gaming, whether Apple likes it or not.

This article is what we used to call "Prostitution of the Literature." That is taking a spin on 'what might have been stated' and not giving all the facts and letting the reader make up his own mind.

It would have been interesting to see the take on this 'interview' if this sound bite had been based on the CNBC article, i.e., iPhone Has Become Threat To Nintendo: 'Doom' Creator http://www.cnbc.com/id/33721096/site/14081545 rather than KOTAKU's Carmack: Working With Apple Is a Rollercoaster Ride http://kotaku.com/5397908/carmack-wo...yline=true&s=x

Actually, I would argue that there was an interview at all. Certainly, it does indicate such as was stated and the more comprehensive reporting evidenced in the CNBC article.

And this author's headline, to contend that "embarrassed" is the same as "not proud" is even more embarrassing. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the highest level of Apple view their success in gaming as an 'embarrassment of riches' and that has a different meaning all together.

As to conclude by saying, …whether Apple likes it or not… is really a prostitution of literature for which the author of this article should be most ashamed to admit he ever attended a course in journalism.
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post #162 of 185
11/8/09 at 2:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

This article is what we used to call "Prostitution of the Literature." That is taking a spin on 'what might have been stated' and not giving all the facts and letting the reader make up his own mind.

It would have been interesting to see the take on this 'interview' if this sound bite had been based on the CNBC article, i.e., iPhone Has Become Threat To Nintendo: 'Doom' Creator http://www.cnbc.com/id/33721096/site/14081545 rather than KOTAKU's Carmack: Working With Apple Is a Rollercoaster Ride http://kotaku.com/5397908/carmack-wo...yline=true&s=x

Actually, I would argue that there was an interview at all. Certainly, it does indicate such as was stated and the more comprehensive reporting evidenced in the CNBC article.

And this author's headline, to contend that "embarrassed" is the same as "not proud" is even more embarrassing. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the highest level of Apple view their success in gaming as an 'embarrassment of riches' and that has a different meaning all together.

As to conclude by saying, whether Apple likes it or not is really a prostitution of literature for which the author of this article should be most ashamed to admit he ever attended a course in journalism.

Superb post. Very well stated. I like that juxtaposition.
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post #163 of 185
11/8/09 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

John Carmack yaps a lot. He also tends to get more vocal when he doesn't get his way on something. Take anything he says with a grain of salt.

kotatsu, I don't agree with your statement about Jobs being driven by a desire for profit - I believe he is a control-freak and is driven by the desire to build devices that look and operate a certain way, and anything else is unacceptable - "I will build it my way, and if you don't like it, tough beans."

I think Apple execs are perfectly happy with the popularity of gaming on iPhone/Touch. At the same time I do think they would like to see more business purpose adoption with the platform. I think the slow uptake in businesses disappoints them, but I don't think they're disappointed by the games.

John Carmack is rapidly running out of his 15 minutes of fame in the gaming industry.

The more he runs his mouth the more rapidly he become irrelevant.
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post #164 of 185
11/8/09 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximara View Post

In 2008 the NPD Group stated only $910 million of the some $18.8 billion dollars spent on game software went to the entire PC market. That means some 95% went into consoles and if you look DirectX dominates in only one console: Xbox 360 which at best a dismal 30% of the console market. Worse the DirectX the Xbox 360 is stuck at DirectX 9 as Directx 10 and higher are effectively incompatible. Everybody else in the console market is on some variant of the OpenGL bandwagon. Given some 66% of the gaming market is OpenGL running on some non Windows OS what idiot game developer is going code for Windows on a PC if marketshare is the thing?

Bingo.

With OpenGL 3.2 emerging in all the latest GPGPU drivers and work steadily moving forward on the next revision the days of OpenGL being obsolete and losing to DirectX are over.

With OpenCL 1.1 nearly ready and IBM Power6 just releasing support for OpenCL 1.0 on their big iron it's quite clear that the marriage between these two technologies will help propel both as the standards to use across all platforms; and gaming will benefit considerably.

Having Apple driving OpenGL on the iPhone/iPod Touch Cocoa platforms only accelerates this reality.
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post #165 of 185
11/8/09 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Um, being smart at coding is exactly what is involved in making game engines that change the video game industry. What other skill did you imagine was involved, having a winning personality?

At any rate, I'm not putting him down for being a good programmer. I'm saying that being a good programmer doesn't make you insightful into human nature, or especially skilled at any number other areas of human endeavor.

I pointed it out because in modern geek culture "smart" is synonymous with "good programmer" and "really smart" is synonymous with "notoriously good programmer." There are all kinds of smart, and being a good programmer isn't even the better part of most of them.

Now you are being slightly belittling.

It takes more then being a great coder to make a company like ID software.
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post #166 of 185
11/8/09 at 5:09pm
Gaming is a very fickle business so it makes sense Apple isn't going to actively market games. That being said the iPod Touch IS actively being marketed as a gaming device because that's what the ads are showing.

Apple wants the iPhone to be a killer phone with business potential because there is a large market for that that Apple wants to tap into. Having the iPhone as a gamin device is not their preferred option but they do realise that because it shares the same hardware as the Touch that games for the Touch will still work on the iPhone.

Apple isn't going to kill off the games on the iPhone but then they're also not going to be making efforts to promote the iPhone as a gaming device either.

Carmack doesn't understand the Mac platform because he's ditched it long ago so he has no claim to make the statements he's making. He needs to shut up and put his money where his mouth is and start developing Mac games as well as iPhone games.
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post #167 of 185
11/8/09 at 6:00pm
in the end after >>
all is said and done
> after hundreds of post's at AI and hundreds more all over the known world
we are left with an empty plate >> void of any lasting info or even as we walk away
we all talked about nothing



why did not someone ask him ?
WHEN are you going to make more doom and doom/quake like games for the mac platforms


in the end games are all that ever mattered .

on monday i will surf the net and find this guy or someone in control and
i will ask him .



maybe he fears msft so much he froze


COD/HALO
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post #168 of 185
11/8/09 at 6:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

in the end after >>
all is said and done
> after hundreds of post's at AI and hundreds more all over the known world
we are left with an empty plate >> void of any lasting info or even as we walk away
we all talked about nothing



why did not someone ask him ?
WHEN are you going to make more doom and doom/quake like games for the mac platforms


in the end games are all that ever mattered .

on monday i will surf the net and find this guy or someone in control and
i will ask him .



maybe he fears msft so much he froze


COD/HALO

So true!

We've been commenting on this guy's intuition, which was apparently based on nothing in particular, and in light of seeningly conflicting evidence. Ah well . . .
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post #169 of 185
11/8/09 at 6:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

So true!

We've been commenting on this guy's intuition, which was apparently based on nothing in particular, and in light of seeningly conflicting evidence. Ah well . . .

This guy holds so much power over apple gamers
he barely even gives  any good games while msft get fully stocked .

Yet Quadra with all the power of an apple with openCL and GCS like stuff he could really invent some ground breaking games for apple platforms



peace my friend

9
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post #170 of 185
11/8/09 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by masstrkiller View Post

Now you are being slightly belittling.

It takes more then being a great coder to make a company like ID software.

I'm not, actually, I just don't think being really good at writing the software that depicts shooting monsters in dark hallways makes you a genius or a great man.

And yeah, I would say that making a company like ID is pretty much mostly about being really good at writing software that depicts shooting monsters in dark hallways, better than the next guy.

What else where you figuring was involved? The literary depth of gameplay? The artistic depictions of hallways?
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post #171 of 185
11/8/09 at 8:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

This guy holds so much power over apple gamers
he barely even gives  any good games while msft get fully stocked .

Yet Quadra with all the power of an apple with openCL and GCS like stuff he could really invent some ground breaking games for apple platforms



peace my friend

9

Apple doesn't get any good games because places like id Sofware, Value, Eidos and others are pushing the limits so hard it would be next to impossible to run these games on Apple hardware.

Most the time the CPU requirements are fine but Apple always falls very short on the GPU. Trying to play a game on an iMac 27" with an HD 4670 would be a joke. The game would be like watching a slide show. This is why our stuck with games like Quake 4.
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post #172 of 185
11/8/09 at 9:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I'm not, actually, I just don't think being really good at writing the software that depicts shooting monsters in dark hallways makes you a genius or a great man.

And yeah, I would say that making a company like ID is pretty much mostly about being really good at writing software that depicts shooting monsters in dark hallways, better than the next guy.

What else where you figuring was involved? The literary depth of gameplay? The artistic depictions of hallways?

wwwwww
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post #173 of 185
11/8/09 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowededwookie View Post

Carmack doesn't understand the Mac platform because he's ditched it long ago so he has no claim to make the statements he's making. He needs to shut up and put his money where his mouth is and start developing Mac games as well as iPhone games.

Did anybody bother to read the CNBC interview: http://www.cnbc.com/id/33721096/site/14081545

"Carmacks id Software plans to release one iPhone game per quarter over the next year. It has just put out Doom Classic, a port of the seminal first-person shooter. Still to come are iPhone versions of Quake and a second Doom role-playing game. The company also hopes to have an iPhone version of Rage ready to release when it launches he new action franchise, likely in 2010."
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post #174 of 185
11/9/09 at 6:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

I could see a Doom classic or even a version of Quake on the iPhone but I have no clue how they are going to make an iPhone version of Rage that even remotely looks like Rage.

http://www.rage-game.com/home.action

I don't know about you, but I've already been playing Quake on my iPhone for 2 years now.
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post #175 of 185
11/9/09 at 7:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Apple doesn't get any good games because places like id Software, Value, Eidos and others are pushing the limits so hard it would be next to impossible to run these games on Apple hardware.

Most the time the CPU requirements are fine but Apple always falls very short on the GPU. Trying to play a game on an iMac 27" with an HD 4670 would be a joke. The game would be like watching a slide show. This is why our stuck with games like Quake 4.

I have a 15in MBP 3.02 GHz 500g 7500 rpm how do you think i would do trying the high end games .


And exactly what machines do you recommend for top flight gaming..

PEACE
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post #176 of 185
11/9/09 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

John Carmack is rapidly running out of his 15 minutes of fame in the gaming industry.

The more he runs his mouth the more rapidly he become irrelevant.

haha - 15 minutes? are you high? try 15 years.
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post #177 of 185
11/9/09 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

I have a 15in MBP 3.02 GHz 500g 7500 rpm how do you think i would do trying the high end games .


And exactly what machines do you recommend for top flight gaming..

PEACE
9

you wouldn't do very well with the latest generation and upcoming titles from the likes of valve, crytek, id, etc...

to play these titles and see them at their best, you need a fast processor (clock speed: lots of cores don't really help - not yet), plenty of ram, and, most importantly, as much gpu horsepower you can get your hands on. with apple you can get the processor and ram (you'll pay a big premium), but what you can't get is enough gpu horsepower.
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post #178 of 185
11/9/09 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

John Carmack is rapidly running out of his 15 minutes of fame in the gaming industry.

The more he runs his mouth the more rapidly he become irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I'm not, actually, I just don't think being really good at writing the software that depicts shooting monsters in dark hallways makes you a genius or a great man.

And yeah, I would say that making a company like ID is pretty much mostly about being really good at writing software that depicts shooting monsters in dark hallways, better than the next guy.

What else where you figuring was involved? The literary depth of gameplay? The artistic depictions of hallways?

Oh, I don't know - maybe an amazing understanding of math and physics. how about the credit for inventing an entire genre of entertainment?

- inducted into the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences' Hall of Fame
- two Emmy Awards
- the only game designer ever honored twice by the National Academy of Television Arts & Sciences
- won the $350,000 Level One X-Prize Lunar Lander Challenge

You think he's earned the right to comment?
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post #179 of 185
11/9/09 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Apple doesn't get any good games because places like id Sofware, Value, Eidos and others are pushing the limits so hard it would be next to impossible to run these games on Apple hardware.

Most the time the CPU requirements are fine but Apple always falls very short on the GPU. Trying to play a game on an iMac 27" with an HD 4670 would be a joke. The game would be like watching a slide show. This is why our stuck with games like Quake 4.

amen.
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post #180 of 185
11/9/09 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

Intel Macs run Windows. Good thing you wasted your money on another computer. And your friends are not too bright either.


And you are not too bright about gaming. It helps to know a little about the topic you are discussing so you can make an informed opinion. Just being able to run WIndows does not make a mac good at gaming.
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post #181 of 185
11/9/09 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdyates View Post

Oh, I don't know - maybe an amazing understanding of math and physics. how about the credit for inventing an entire genre of entertainment?

- inducted into the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences' Hall of Fame
- two Emmy Awards
- the only game designer ever honored twice by the National Academy of Television Arts & Sciences
- won the $350,000 Level One X-Prize Lunar Lander Challenge

You think he's earned the right to comment?

He has the right to comment about game and software design, which are what all of those honors are about.

It doesn't make him a mind reader, or particularly able to intuit what Apple may or may not be "embarrassed" about.

In my book, an "amazing understanding of math and physics" describes someone like Richard Feynman.
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post #182 of 185
11/9/09 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

He has the right to comment about game and software design, which are what all of those honors are about.

It doesn't make him a mind reader, or particularly able to intuit what Apple may or may not be "embarrassed" about.

In my book, an "amazing understanding of math and physics" describes someone like Richard Feynman.

He was talking about gaming and software design and how Apple views them. He has some insight into that having dealt with apple off and on over the years. He knows a thing or 2 about how apple sees gaming fitting into their business. He was also just expressing his opinion.

Just because Feynman is a renowned physicist does not take anything away from how Carmack has applied those things to interactive art. I would stand by the "amazing understanding of math and physics" regardless of Feynman. You might as well throw Hawking and Einstein in there too - I wasn't comparing him to the icons of theoretical physics or anything.

I'm not starting a fan club or anything, I'm just saying give the man his due, and the other guys comment about 15 minutes of fame is just silly.

:-)
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post #183 of 185
11/9/09 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

He has the right to comment about game and software design, which are what all of those honors are about.

It doesn't make him a mind reader, or particularly able to intuit what Apple may or may not be "embarrassed" about.

In my book, an "amazing understanding of math and physics" describes someone like Richard Feynman.

Agreed.

Sorry, but Carmack isn't going to wow any respectable Mechanical Engineer, Physicist, Applied & Pure Mathematician on his skills.

His strength was using quasi-physics and discrete mathematics which computers are designed for to get as much efficiency as possible out of the hardware limitations of it's time.

Game engines are incorporating more and more actual physics laws into their engines as CPUs/GPGPUs are capable of handling actual non-linear dynamics.

Carmack was a visible voice when OpenGL was waning in use for the gaming industry. After the actual game hardware companies re-embraced and moved forward the standards, including new advances, he ceased to be such a visible figure.

I'm more impressed with Game Physics Simulation software like Bullet than I am with Carmack's engines.

Anyone who is serious about Science should have Feynman's Lectures in hardbound.
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post #184 of 185
11/9/09 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Well he's certainly a far cry from being right. I honestly don't know what to make of Carmack's statements. He's either clairvoyant, or he's just guessing, or someone told him something. Pick your poison.

Carmack has dealt with Apple quite a bit over the years. He has some insight into this. At least enough to form and share an educated opinion about what he's observed. Previous posters have said he's not a guy that runs his mouth without knowing what he's talking about.
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post #185 of 185
11/11/09 at 4:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdyates View Post

Carmack has dealt with Apple quite a bit over the years. He has some insight into this. At least enough to form and share an educated opinion about what he's observed. Previous posters have said he's not a guy that runs his mouth without knowing what he's talking about.

I know I remarked on this and yeah it's probably true Apple wanted in to the enterprise segment. Shoot. I worked for an IT department that dealt mostly with high end macs, NBC, trailer houses, but we also did servers for PCs. But how dies a company like apple that's eating away at play station with a forcasted target price for share to be over $250, be embarressed???
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