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Doom game creator suggests Apple embarrassed about iPhone gaming - Page 3

post #81 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

I think that's a very good interpretation.

It's instructive to remember that when the Macintosh first came out people called it a toy. Steve Jobs was so insulted that he spent the next 25 years trying to get people to take his products seriously.

Whatever he did, it worked.
post #82 of 174
I'm pretty surprised at the number of people here commenting on Carmack's character, without having any idea who he actually is.

He's probably right, but ultimately it doesn't matter. If Apple customers want games and the opportunity is there, Apple will oblidge, even if it wasn't their original vision for the devices, and it probably wasn't.

Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others.
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Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others.
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post #83 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

IT departments aren't stupid. You think business owners don't realize how many of the apps are GAMES and Widgets?

IT depts are stupid .They only survive to this because of vista like disasters.

Me and you teckstud could run any apple IT dept in this country .

fanboi stuff below.


ALSO where you geeks over think stuff is why apple is always behind all COMPUTER MAKERS >>>

SOFTWARE !!
 Has and does beg on its knees and it still does for any worthy 3rd party SW for its platforms.
Every minute of every day for its  whole life this is true. Desperation like a dry mouth in the desert sun except Poland springs sells to some jerk named bill gates jr. Look at the result when  has the better SW. >>>>>>> A 100,001 title app store !!!!, with the sales numbers to back it up .

Apple was so stunned it halted upgrades to touch and simple froze the model into a processor/speed boost only device like the classic 160 g ipod .


When call of duty 6.5 comes to mac one million or more 15in 2 GPU chip MBP's will sell on with-in 90 days. .I almost cried when sims 3 came out for mac . The roll out party was pathetic to what apple SHOULD HAVE . H A L O .

I PAID $110 dollars for a used 2003 HALO 3 for mac w/universal conversion disc.

So any one who thinks for a moment apple wants its devices thought of any certain way or cares how its devices are perceived is extremely naive , APPLE takes it anyway it can .


To the simple minded please read below
APPLE understands that one million execs right now use iphones for their full business uses WITHOUT its parent company giving it's ok . Apple right now is sitting with scores of major companies sorting out data wiping issues and stuff like that to bring those one million top execs back IN out from the cold. while bring all those companies over to the iphone. The tops execs already voted with their feet so the game is over. So anyone saying a company is not using apple because of gaming is making stuff up

I wish you guys would stop making stuff up

>>>>>>Oh oh mercy me we sold 8 million iphones and 30 million touchs and 3 million macs . And someone thinks of us as a gaming house !!
THE HORROR !!! off WITH there HEADS !!! <<AND This 30 bn in cash gets returned right away . <<<

yea right ...

3d anything /games > movies / media and fast sync ease of use biz apps will drive ever increasing iphone itouch sales for yrs. to come.Whole industries are migrating right now. and all those old out dated legacy iphone touches have a new possible home. When youe xbox /nokia /psp dies . it really dies . APPLE lives on forever

go apple




whats in a name ? 
beatles
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whats in a name ? 
beatles
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post #84 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

Business is about being serious and consumer is about having fun.

Your opinion flies in the face of the entire Microsoft/PC business model.
post #85 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroth View Post

You're Trippin'. The route Apple took (ignoring gamers) was the most profitable. They weren't going to build a line of computers for gamers, taking away R&D money and building systems for a limited group of people.

Combine the sales of the Wii, the PS, the Xbox and PC gamers and the iPhone/iPod games sales and your telling me this is a niche market?

No your tripping, Apple missed it's opportunity. It keeps trying it's same old mistake, trying to get into business and most business doesn't want a hardware and software monopoly.
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post #86 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Your opinion flies in the face of the entire Microsoft/PC business model.

No, Apple ignored the gaming market in favor of appealing to the business market and the business market rejected them and their hardware+software monopoly which puts them at greater risk that the malware prone Windows OS is.

At least business can replace their hardware vendors if they screw up or not provide hardware they need and businesses can carry over their investment in OS, app and training to the new hardware. Apple never offered this option in favor of their vertical model.

Thus Microsoft filled the vacuum in the gaming market because there was no other choice.

Apple should have been aggressive in the consumer market, this means gaming and they would have the PS3 and the Xbox market owned with their own device.

But nooo, Apple wants to appeal to business with a limited flashy product line and glossy screens that have been deemed a health hazard in Europe and Australia.
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post #87 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

John Carmack, creator of the classic PC game Doom, ...

John Carmack is a money-grubbing old fart that hasn't made a good game or had anything to do with a good product for years IMO. He constantly criticises Apple even as they reach out their hand towards him. They invite him on stage at their events, and he's all smiles, then he craps all over them the next day in the press.

If you look at what he's saying here, his entire comment amounts to a projection on his part. An imagined description of the supposed mental state he believes exists in the "souls" of other people. Other people he is not only not friends with, but actively dislikes. Yeah, no bias there eh?

He should just continue with his efforts to milk money out of 30 year old games and give up on the illusion that he has anything relevant to say about Apple. This is just a case of sour grapes in that he believes the app store prices are too low and wants to sell his ancient collection of games at triple the price of a current *good* new game.
post #88 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

If Apple wants to get into the gaming arena then they need to get serious about creating hardware that is powerful enough to run todays technology. The fact that the iPhone or iPod Touch can run game that are 1990 technology isn't being in the gaming market.

While its fine for very casual gaming the games for the most part aren't that great which is why they cost less then 2.00. Even Doom Classic is 1993 technology.

Even the GPU power on the new iMac isn't great for gaming. Try to run one of the lastest games on on a 27" highdef screen using their current GPU, its not possible unless your playing a 10 year old game.


It's too late for serious 3D gaming advancing on the Mac. First off dedicated consoles do a much better job and can afford the heat and different/more powerful processors necessary. Plus the UI can be set up for children so it's near fool proof.

Apple is using Intel processors now, which have to cater to the cooler thinner laptop market and need to spread out any heat amongst more cores.

This division of the threads amongst other cores is a performance loss and not idea for gaming, plus Intel hobbles the bus and other heat controlling things that cripple performance.

Apple is now traveling down a road of cheaper, less performance components wrapped in shiny box with a higher price tag. The hard drive will be disappearing, and the Superdrive too in favor of separate devices. Meaning more margins for Apple and less performance value for consumers.
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post #89 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

If Apple wants to get into the gaming arena then they need to get serious about creating hardware that is powerful enough to run todays technology.

The problem isn’t the technology. The GPU in the PSP trumps the 3GS trumps the DS.
PSP:
33 million triangles per second (4.7x more than 3GS; 275.0x more than DS)
664 million pixels per second (2.6x more than 3GS; 22.1x more than DS)

3GS:
7 million triangles per second (58.3x more than DS)
250 million pixels per second (8.3x more than DS)

DS:
120,000 triangles per second
30 Million pixels per second That doesn’t even count the 3GS’ CPU with trounces those devices or the potential use of OpenCL in iPhoneOS.

So the PSP still wins, but it’s closer to the PSP than it is to the DS, yet the DS is a good devices for game play. THe problem is not the power, the problem is the lack of a truly killer game for the platform, but I wonder if that is even possible when the device is not dedicated to a single function but designed to work in many capacities very well.

The problem with the DS and PSP is that they didn’t see this coming. They now have the DSi and PSP GO, but these are stop gates. The game itself will have to be very strong for someone to say they want a DS or PSP over a Touch that has internet, iPod, and over 100k+ apps to choose from. Sony and Nintendo dropped the ball by not seeing that they needed to make their handheld device into a solid PMP and internet communicator.

http://www.hardcoreware.net/graphics...-to-psp-to-ds/
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post #90 of 174
whether of not Apple is privately embarrassed about iPhone/touch success in gaming is irrelevant. it's what's happening that matters.

the (relatively) sudden appearance of a new platform that provides plenty of gaming fun at 80% lower game prices is totally disrupting the PSP/DS high-priced business model. they are reeling. the fact the touch is also a great iPod, communicator, and multi-purpose device (all those apps) that Sony and Nintendo cannot possibly match makes it unstoppable. it's just like the iPod killing the Walkman, deja vu all over again.

the games themselves are evolving beyond old-school button controls to take advantage of the new platform's capabilities - accelerometer, touch control, GPS/compass, bluetooth links, camera, augmented reality, etc. so while a lot of the old school games will never work well on the touch, a new generation of amazing games will supplant them (you old school guys will still have your consoles anyway).

the iTab by the way will pump this all up 9x, screen area-wise, which will make augmented reality in particular really spectacular. me, i'm looking forward to battling Godzilla and Mothra right out there on my neighborhood streets ...
post #91 of 174
Since day 1 Steve Job returned to Apple, the core markets for Apple are Education and Creative. Apple still have significant shares in this two market today.

Game developers will automatically follow the trend if the platform is growing. One of the biggest reason game developers use DirectX and develop for Windows is because of Market Share.

Apple computer's market share is growing every year, there will be more and more games for Apple. No matter whether Apple is happy or the computer spec not as good as someone stated
post #92 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

Also if Apple really wanted to make a real attempt to get into business they could start by trying to make a decent office suite instead of iworks. While Pages and keynote are good numbers is beyond sad and to date nothing comes close to competing with Excel.

What an asinine observation. If Apple wanted to get into 'business,' they should start selling to 'business.' MS Office works perfectly with OSX, in case you were ignorant of the fact.

iWork is primarily positioned as a home (or small business, not GE) office suite-equivalent. Moreover, even if it were made more business-friendly and savvy, IT departments would be loathe to switch, since it would take too much time and trouble to retrain people to a new suite and to offer support (indeed, that is the basis MS Office's continued dominance). Obviously, you do not much about how businesses work either.
post #93 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

Apple is now traveling down a road of cheaper, less performance components wrapped in shiny box with a higher price tag. The hard drive will be disappearing, and the Superdrive too in favor of separate devices. Meaning more margins for Apple and less performance value for consumers.

Not bad for "less performance value."


http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10019711-37.html

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...g-industry.ars

http://digg.com/apple/Apple_leads_20...faction_survey

http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/08/....no..1.on.csi/

http://theappleblog.com/2009/05/06/a...he-experience/

http://blackfriarsinc.com/blog/2007/...s-customerbase

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...stomer_sa.html

http://www.cultofmac.com/apple-posts...ion-index/2553

http://macdailynews.com/index.php/we...omments/22467/

http://bindapple.com/apple-satisfaction-2009-report/

http://www.macnn.com/news/25971

http://www.macrumors.com/2009/08/14/...action-survey/

http://www.ipodobserver.com/ipo/arti...ff_The_Charts/

http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2009/08...-satisfaction/

http://www.mactivist.com/2009/06/iph...kings-in-japan

http://www.9to5mac.com/jobs-satisfation-rate-high

http://www.jdpower.com/Business/rati...tphone-ratings

http://www.v3.co.uk/v3/news/2248040/...ps-top-billing

http://www.eweek.com/prestitial.php?...453807%2F&ref=

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2352796,00.asp

http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2006/08/5002.ars

http://www.osnews.com/story/15553

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1689554/posts

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/.../t-224872.html


2009 = the year of the Mac

http://theappleblog.com/2009/09/30/t...lion-mac-year/

Apple is selling *more* Macs. In a recession. Record numbers of Macs. Mac growth has outpaced the rest of the industry, several years running.
post #94 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

Apple is a consumer products company. ( a luxury impulsive one at that)

They do the opposite of what is expected in products for business users. (who think a lot before committing as they are trying to make money and extract the best option)

That actually doesn't make much sense.

Quote:
Look at the Droid, it's square and black,

The iPhone isn't exactly pink and squishy. Is that supposed to be an example of a competitor not "doing the opposite of what is expected in products for business users"? Are Droid users going to beat their rivals to death with their phones, because they can double as truncheons?

Quote:
has a real keyboard,

Which has been broadly panned. A "real" keyboard, visa vis business users, doesn't mean much if it isn't well implemented, especially if someone like Apple has done a really good job of making a touchscreen keyboard.

Quote:
it doubles as a GPS with turn by turn,

Which is something Google is doing to get some mindshare. They'll be offering same for the iPhone and other platforms presently. I don't imagine that Apple will refuse the app just to confound "business users." Business users can also get turn by turn GPS apps for the iPhone now, which aside from a bit of coin are not hard to install.

Quote:
it doubles as a alarm clock when your charging

iPhone can be used as an alarm clock.

Quote:
It has a removable battery

Endlessly debated. Let's see how battery life compares, which is also a "feature" business users appreciate. And you can always get a supplemental battery that can be used without having to take off the back change things out.

Quote:
and a real flash for the camera.

Because business users are big on night shots?

Quote:
What and who is this targeted? The serious, no nonsense, male business traveler.

You appear to have copied and pasted the boilerplate list of "why iPhone is suxxor" and then just randomly decided it has something to do with business use.

Quote:
What is the iPhone (and most Apple's products) mostly targeted for?

Oh, I don't know. Adolescent girls? Urban homosexuals? Unicorns? The nonsensical house bound?

Really, you're not making any sense. The iPhone has seen very solid uptake in business. That's because it does, you know, business stuff, at least as well as Droid. Plus, there's a few little things, like out of the box Exchange support that AT&T doesn't charge extra for, that makes your thesis a complete non-starter.

Quote:
Why is it that anything extra with the iPhone is a bolt on hassle? (it's because Apple makes great consumer devices that have some uses in the business environment with alterations, until something more dedicated arrives)

I'm not even sure what this means, but you'll note that the last software update exposed device functionality to the dock connector. For the most part, however, "business functionality" is a matter of software, which the iPhone, um, runs.

Quote:
Why is it surprising the iPhone's most popular selling apps are games?

It's no surprise to me. If Apple wanted to make a business iPhone they could, at the sacrifice of their consumer one.

Except that everything you listed as being why Droid is a real business phone while the iPhone is not, except for an uglier case and a camera flash, can be or has been implemented in software on the current iPhone. So unless your idea is that Apple must make an iPhone that is more utilitarian and ugly while being able to take (mediocre) pictures in darkness to capture "business" customers, you don't have a point. I don't think you have a point, beyond putting the standard, vague "Apple products are toys" tropes through a Droid marketing blender, but all that gets you is mush.

Quote:
Business is about being serious and consumer is about having fun.

Hard to mix the two impressions.

Aha. It's actually about impressions. Which is interesting, because those serious, slab case loving business people are, I think, capable of discerning what a product can do, beyond what kind of vibe you or anyone else thinks it puts off.

Given the Droid's Terminator cum "I'm here to kill happiness" advertising to date, the target market appears to be over-impressionable adolescent boys, which I suppose defines some section of the business market. Intelligent adults, however, will simply look at what a given phone can do.
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post #95 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Correct, and Apple knows full well how important it is to cultivate image. That's really the only true way to maintain control over a product who's features/function are dictated by the market.

It does do "everything", but thats a user perception, not a buyer perception. That sounds far too ominous and a bit arrogant to someone who is considering spending their money on one.

Honestly, I think the product is doing just fine, and Apple should focus more on marketing their "Apple Ecosystem", rather than just the iPhone. The iPhone has potential to bring in more Mac users and MobileMe subscribers. It has already exponentially increased the number of iTunes accounts, but its time for it to start selling bigger hardware.

Many people with Windows and iPhones may be looking for a more cohesive experience, and just don't have the proper advice/information that they need to truly "switch to Mac". I know plenty of people with exactly that situation, and I just don't have the time, inclination, or the commission to push it.

I really don't buy the "perception" argument.

"Business", or at least competently run business, is all about pragmatism. A business isn't a middle school student, obsessed by what the other kids will think. They want the tool that works for the job at hand.

The iPhone is clearly a tool that works for the job at hand. If an employee really likes that tool, and is likely to use it all the time, all the better.

I don't recall "business" recoiling in disgust as PC based gaming took off, do you? That's probably because they could tell the difference between an app and a platform.
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post #96 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post

... It's instructive to remember that when the Macintosh first came out people called it a toy. Steve Jobs was so insulted that he spent the next 25 years trying to get people to take his products seriously. Games are too close to "toys" for him to truly open his heart to them. ...

Most of what you're saying here is complete BS. You are doing the same thing Carmack is doing in that you're just sitting back and "imagining" what might be going on in Steve Jobs' head based on really nothing at all.

Games are by definition a sort of time-wasting activity. Steve Jobs is a serious person and like most serious people, if he has time for games it's minimal.

I've worked in the business since the beginning and I can tell you without equivocation that the vast majority of the "serious" computer users, the techs, the developers, the scientists, the artists, and those that create all the stuff that you use, do not play a lot of games.

If you are a hard-core XBox or PSP gamer you are way more likely to be on the inconsequential fringes of the tech scene than you are to be a mover and shaker. Most of the really smart capable people I know in the computer field play a few games now and then, have one or two they may like (especially for nostalgia reasons), but basically haven't played much since they you know ... grew up.

In other words, games *are* toys, and mostly for "kids," or for brief relaxation.

The whole idea that the Mac platform should bend over backwards for games is a fantasy propagated by a lot of XBox boys that is essentially unreasonable. Most of the people actually using the Mac platform are using it for more serious things and couldn't give a damn about games except when they can't run one that they might want to.

Games are just not the big deal that all the teenagers and twenty-somethings think they are and so-called "casual" gaming is far more important and far more popular than all the copies of Halo put together because smart people have better things to do.
post #97 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

The problem with the DS and PSP is that they didnt see this coming. They now have the DSi and PSP GO, but these are stop gates. The game itself will have to be very strong for someone to say they want a DS or PSP over a Touch that has internet, iPod, and over 100k+ apps to choose from. Sony and Nintendo dropped the ball by not seeing that they needed to make their handheld device into a solid PMP and internet communicator.

Can we stop with the 100k apps stuff, reports like the one from AppFire are a great example that the majority aren't downloaded, or even used.
post #98 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmz View Post

Right. So can the previous gen PSP, and the PS3.

That doesn't make it lightyears ahead of anything, let alone the iPhone. The iPhone IS LIGHTYEARS ahead of the PSP Go in terms of sales volume, adoption rate, total available games, and average price per game by large large large margin.

That's what matters. Not what assassins creed looks like. LMAO.

That is bull, it is a fact that the games on the iPhone are nothing compared to the games on the PSP, the gameplay, the length of gameplay, the quality of the games are much higher on the PSP.

Sure, I have a PSP now, but if it died, the iPod touch wouldn't be my first choice of a portable games replacement, I certainly wouldn't want to move to a region coded portable games console (hence I wouldn't get a PSP Go either)

Also, why do you mention PSP Go in your sales volumes, it only came out a month ago.
post #99 of 174
Solitaire didn't slow the corporate adoption of Windows despite being one of the most played games ever among hordes of bored employees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

IT departments aren't stupid. You think business owners don't realize how many of the apps are GAMES and Widgets?
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post #100 of 174
Apple often runs ads showing the iPhone and iPod Touch running games. Apple's top management frequently highlights games at their conferences and press releases.

There is substantial evidence against JC's statement, leaving me to believe that it isn't very accurate. Perhaps there are some people at Apple who aren't all that into games.

But Apple itself seems to strongly promote the iPhone platform as a strong portable gaming platform.
post #101 of 174
The only person or entity embarassed about gaming is Carmack himself for making pathetically shitty games on the iPhone.

Thanks for projecting your embarrassment, Car-mack!
post #102 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Most of what you're saying here is complete BS. You are doing the same thing Carmack is doing in that you're just sitting back and "imagining" what might be going on in Steve Jobs' head based on really nothing at all.

Games are by definition a sort of time-wasting activity. Steve Jobs is a serious person and like most serious people, if he has time for games it's minimal.

I've worked in the business since the beginning and I can tell you without equivocation that the vast majority of the "serious" computer users, the techs, the developers, the scientists, the artists, and those that create all the stuff that you use, do not play a lot of games.

If you are a hard-core XBox or PSP gamer you are way more likely to be on the inconsequential fringes of the tech scene than you are to be a mover and shaker. Most of the really smart capable people I know in the computer field play a few games now and then, have one or two they may like (especially for nostalgia reasons), but basically haven't played much since they you know ... grew up.

In other words, games *are* toys, and mostly for "kids," or for brief relaxation.

The whole idea that the Mac platform should bend over backwards for games is a fantasy propagated by a lot of XBox boys that is essentially unreasonable. Most of the people actually using the Mac platform are using it for more serious things and couldn't give a damn about games except when they can't run one that they might want to.

Games are just not the big deal that all the teenagers and twenty-somethings think they are and so-called "casual" gaming is far more important and far more popular than all the copies of Halo put together because smart people have better things to do.

Well-stated.
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post #103 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Solitaire didn't slow the corporate adoption of Windows despite being one of the most played games ever among hordes of bored employees.

Even when companies I worked for deleted them, you could still go into the i386 folder to find the compressed versions. Back when file names had a maximum of 8 characters.
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post #104 of 174
I wonder if it's still there in 7, I can't be bothered finding out, I think they changed the name to Freecell, I was never really into it, unlike millions of workers across the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Even when companies I worked for deleted them, you could still go into the i386 folder to find the compressed versions. Back when file names had a maximum of 8 characters.
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post #105 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Can we stop with the 100k apps stuff, reports like the one from AppFire are a great example that the majority aren't downloaded, or even used.

And how many sales are there for each handheld or console compared to the number of games available? The point is that the ecosystem is very healhty and that there is plenty of room for growth, especially for the longterm development of a great game to hit the platform.
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post #106 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Then again . . . let's keep in mind that this is a device that does *everything.* People need to realize that, and allow for the fact that if gaming is one of the things it does well, it's going to be a bog selling point.

Flipping it over, however, we come back to your very correct assessment: Perception is Reality. And Apple understands this very well. Perhaps there might be some truth to their alleged feelings about gaming. Interesting.

Sure, it does do a lot, but then on the other hand, it does not.

It will not play flash and therefore, you cannot watch any free movies or TV shows that are offered from all the free networks, no, instead, Apple wants you to purchase them from iTunes, so instead of watching, The Forgotten, ABC Lost Seasons 1-4, Flash Forward, Rescue Me, and so on, Apple want you to buy them. This is why, in my humble opinion, we will never see flash or if we do, it will be crippled somehow. Now if you jailbreak it, then you can get a flash plug-in for Safari and watch just about anything, better yet, you can use torrents, directly from the iPhone and download complete seasons, also another reason we will not see DVR capabilities on the Apple TV.

Now, when it comes to Apple being upset that it's seen as a gaming machine, this really comes down to Exchange,if you have ever used an HTC and it's GPS, it will give you INSTANT up to date traffic problems, I know, I had both a personal iPhone and an HTC given to me from my place of employment. Using this GPS was leaps and bounds beyond the present TOM TOM. It would tell you in :45 seconds you will run into traffic and slow down to 20 m.p.h. and would you like an alternative route, sure enough, :45 seconds later, you were going 20 m.p.h., plus the GPS is spot on where as Tom Tom you can be driving and go past a street before it tells you to turn right or left, as it's about 5 seconds behind in the directions so the only way around this is that you have to be looking in advance as to when you will be turning.

I think though that the biggest problem is that products like the NEWER HTC have Exchange done really well, and Windows mobile 6.5 looks more like OSX then Windows 7 does, and with Exchange, you can set up very secure systems that in a few simple clicks has the user with their contacts, personal info, maps, address, email address, et-cetera, very quickly and remember how poorly that went with Apple? They had so many problems they had to pull it, yet here we are slamming Windows and their OS and 3rd party hardware which they have to support (which is why you want certified for Windows 7, et-cetera, on the product, than not), yet Apple could not get just ONE program to work correctly, in that regard, Microsoft does a great job at working with 3rd party software/hardware which is why I think if the Courier turns out to be true, it would mean for the first time, if MSFT keeps it their own, they will have total control over the device unlike they do now with all the OEM's making computers and building windows machines.

This would mark the first time ever that MSFT has their own computer and this would for sure, eat into business probably replacing phones, or perhaps a side by side launch of a new MSFT phone that works perfect with the Courier.

Apple being upset is that it is NOT being accepted into the business market place as a machine that can do it all, first it can't (no flash, tethering, Exchange, GPS not as accurate), which means even though people now have two phones, a business phone and a personal iPhone, Apple would rather see just ONE phone being used.

Now factor in that Apple's top of the line iMac can't play one of the most modern games out there due to the GPU, not only does GAMING make more $$$$ than music and video combined, Apple does not have a product that appeals to this segment, nor do they have a machine that appeals to the Pro SUMER, someone who does MUSIC on a daily basis as musicians need at least three (3) Hard Drives, one for the OS, another for samples and one for Virtual Instruments and recording, something Avid/ProTools saw the writing on the wall about and therefore purchased M-Audio which makes PRO SUMER devices, hardware, recording solutions, in the past, you could purchase a Macbook Pro 15" with Express slots usings everything from eSata Hard Drive Ports to external OUTSIDE FX saving a lot of CPU power so the end user can use the CPU for virtual instruments.

Examples:
eSata express card:
For the record, external eSata can also be run in RAID, and if not used in a RAID configuation, it boots up and works just as fast as a MAC PRO internal HD, much faster than firewire 800

http://www.google.com/products?clien...ed=0CCcQrQQwAw

One example of express card for FX used in audio.

Look under Product>UAD.Laptops..., this is one of many makers that make express cards, these companies are quite upset with Apple dropping it on the 15"

http://www.uaudio.com/

ProSUmers VERY upset (just one small group, there are many)
1) http://discussions.apple.com/thread....30657&tstart=0

2) http://studionu.com/uadforums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11983


Then of course you have Windows commercials which forced Apple hands at releasing lower priced machines, yet at the same time, Apple dumped the ALL IN ONE Pro Care and One to One as it was BOTh for $99 and the One to One trainers knew LOGIC, FCP, SHAKE, MOTION, now most of them are not only NON TRAINERS but what apple calls some type of Mac Specialist in training and 90% or more do not know (including full time one to one trainers) any Pro Software but just iLife.

Then you have the Mac Pro which just 4-5 years ago you could get for $1499, now to get anything semi pro, you need a Mac Pro or a MBP 17" and the real kicker is that the Mac Pro is made of SERVER PARTS when it could have been made with i7 parts and a mid range product, that is headless and attract the following:
Gamers
Enthusiasts
Video Users (remember when they released a better GPU macbook yet no FIREWIRE? That really had the new One to One trainee's very upset, as these where the mom and pop users trying to make home movies with their firewire video camcorders and ILife. That made no sense at all.
Audio ProSumers and even Pro's as they now record at home/project studios


The irnony, again, is that just in GAMER SALES, you know, where you load a CD/DVD, makes more sales than MUSIC and VIDEO SALES COMBINED, yet Apple fails to take this into consideration and with regard to Blue Ray, BR looks fantastic.

One last time, let me wrap it up by saying not only does Apple NOT see the writting on the wall with regard to ProSumers the way Avid/Digidesign did...
AVID: http://www.avid.com/
Digidesign http://www.digidesign.com/
Keeping in mind that Pro Tools is the industry standard..... they went ahead and bought
M-Audio
http://www.m-audio.com/
as they knew computers were getting faster, yet Apple refuses to release products for just this one type of user let alone the others and if you have ANY INCLINATION AT ALL to be a PROSUMER that wants to record (the imac would need three HD's or at least eSata Ports), but to many have huge displays, e.g. there is a HP that was $600 now for $250 with HDMI, HD, Blue Ray, Speakers, 1920x1200, they still don't have a midrange product line and do you know why?

Because they fear a midrange product would affect MAC PRO sales when in fact, MAC PRO sales are small, and almost non existent compared to laptops, plus ZERO PCIe card slots not to mention you can buy any GPU card you want that would run circles around some of the APPLE offerings and as I 10+ year AT&T user, I JAIL BROKE my iphone last month due to the lack of MMS, but it was the overpriced TOM TOM (again, far off from HTC GPS), but what pushed me over the edge was the GV Mobile. Now I have it along with FREE TETHERING and a dozen other useful apps (including running anything in the background), I'm starting to wonder if I should use this new hack that not only jail breaks but unlocks and then build a hackntosh 8 core machine as over at OSX86 they offer for FREE, something similar to what Pystar is offering in that you can install a RETAIL OS and UPDATES with ZERO problems - - in fact, even though I had macs at work, it was a HACK and TOSH and OSX that got me to buy several macs thereafter..

Anyway, with GV Mobile I have another free PHONE NUMBER, as an ATT user, I add this line to my A list, then during the week, if I know I am going to make a long call, I use the V Mobile number and it doesn't cost me a dime, plus I am using it for my business numbers....

There are a of of things Apple needs to do right and soon, especially if some of the rumors like Courier are true to building/offering mid range and express slots on all machines and eSata ports would not hurt, let alone the very reason for this post, get Exchange working the right way and getting their GPS to work really well and not be off by 4-5 seconds, no instant traffic updates, et-cetera.

Peace all.


And come on * let's get back to the CREATIVES and get it going again - stop dumping us for your consumer iPhones that are not penetrating business due to lack of Exchange working correctly.
post #107 of 174
Windows likes to brag about the number of apps its has, are the majority of them downloaded or used?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Can we stop with the 100k apps stuff, reports like the one from AppFire are a great example that the majority aren't downloaded, or even used.
post #108 of 174
I'd like to see this commercial line up: There's a game for that.

Embrace the gaming side, who cares?

"You know when you're on the can, and you can tell it's going to be a while? There's a game for that."
post #109 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiimamac View Post

It will not play flash and therefore, you cannot watch any free movies or TV shows that are offered from all the free networks.

That was a very long post so Im only going to reply to the first part and read the rest later.

No phone has Flash right now that Im aware of. Adobe has announced mobile Flash 10 to appear on every major platform sometime around mid-2010. That is a tentative date and looking at Adoes history its likely to not go live until later than that.

Flash Lite doesnt count as it cant play these videos from the networks. Its only real use if for ads at this point. The fact that Adobe wont have Flash 10 on any phone until around the time the 4th iPhone is out is proof that Apple not only made the right choice but is also responsible for getting the lackadaisical Adobe off their arse to finally make Flash viable for a handheld. And yet its still going to take them to the 4th version of the iPhone before they even have anything.

Even once it comes, we dont even know if it will work for sites like Hulu. My 2.4GHz Penryn C2Ds spike to near full when I run Hulu video. My netbooks, both with 1.8GHz Atomsone with Mac OS X and the other with WinXPcannot run Hulu video in 480p without it being choppy. Phones with ARM processors will be worse off than Atom, and use a lot of power to give you choppy video

I had hoped that Flash 10s HW acceleration would resolve this. It does not. For this to work Adobe may have to apply something that accelerates the GPU, like OpenGL or WebGL, though Im not even sure that is possible.

The best solution for users is to have these sites streaming video to use HTTP Secure Streaming on an HTML/CSS/JS page or from a dedicated app that your install from the respective app stores. Similar to the way the YouTube apps works on the iPhone and how when you click on a YouTube page in mobile Safari it calls the app. This is ideal from a performance, maximum quality and power consumption standpoint.
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post #110 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Windows likes to brag about the number of apps its has, are the majority of them downloaded or used?

He has a point, but I dont think he stated it well. Of course most apps are worthless to most people, the point is that it shows that developers are there and that people are relatively secure in knowing an app they want likely exists.

Although Android has only 1/10 of the App Stores total it has achieved the same social position in that developers see as being successful and consumers can be assured that it will continue to grow that there is chance the app they want is likely there.

Andorids NDK will make this even more a reality with better apps that can harness the power of HW more effectively. I think Jfanning is failing to see that the number of apps shows that the ecosystem is healthy, regardless of only needing to use 1 or 100,000.
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post #111 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

That was a very long post so I’m only going to reply to the first part and read the rest later.

I have a friend who has a Verizon HTC Pro Touch, tried to play Hulu videos on it, it didn't work.

To play Flash video Hulu says you need Flash 9, which no phone currently has. Hulu recommends you need 1Mbps downstream for smooth playback, which is on the high end for streaming video to a phone.

Video services like Hulu on the iPhone have little to do with Flash itself. The owners of Hulu want to charge for the service. They know Hulu on the iPhone would be a big hit. They want to figure out a successful way to charge for it before they release an iPhone app.

Netflix may not have permission to distribute its videos to phones. It may take them some time to get permission and encode thousands of video files small enough to play on phones.


I don't think there is any need to respond the rest of hiiamac's post. Most of it was FUD, most of it is untrue, and parts of it made no sense.


Quote:
Now, when it comes to Apple being upset that it's seen as a gaming machine, this really comes down to Exchange,if you have ever used an HTC and it's GPS

What does gaming, Exchange, and GPS have to do with each other?
post #112 of 174
yeah i don't think carmack is really right here. as i recall some of the first iphone keynotes dealing with the app store included game demos. they were showing how it only took 2 weeks to complete super monkey ball on the iphone.

along with the gaming ads for the ipod touch, i'm not sure what he's talking about. i think carmack is just trying to figure out why he's such an outsider to apple.
post #113 of 174
People over play the notion that most apps in the App Store is worthless. Yes I do agree most of the Apps are undesirable, but that has always been the case, it didn't just begin with the App Store.

I do agree though that Android appears to be well on its way. That's a good thing for Apple and for the smartphone market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

He has a point, but I dont think he stated it well. Of course most apps are worthless to most people, the point is that it shows that developers are there and that people are relatively secure in knowing an app they want likely exists.
post #114 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

I do agree though that Android appears to be well on its way. That's a good thing for Apple and for the smartphone market.

Pogue did a Twitter poll to see what a new term for these super-smartphones could be. Comparing them to smartphones of the past doesnt do them justice. The answer he chose was App Phone. I quite like it.It

has yet to defined to more specific criteria. I think an SDK for a compiled language (not just interpreted), at least 1000 apps in the App Store, and having HW that is at least ARM11 or better would be the 3 things I would choose off the top of my head.
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post #115 of 174
It's logical for Apple to shy away from the 'game platform' designation. Microsoft's ad agency could have fun with that. Ditto for RIM, Nokia, Palm, Motorola and other smart phone competitors. They'd like nothing more than to see the iPhone categorized as 'just a game platform' in the public's perception.

I use an iPhone constantly and run a ton of apps. Games are missing entirely from my iPhone and my computers. I've long considered computer games to be a huge time waster and a prime source of additional disk space (via deletion).

I can understand someone enjoying a game like computerized chess or Mah Jong but action/arcade games just leave me shaking my head and rolling my eyes. Carmack has created nothing that I would find even mildly interesting.
post #116 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Most of what you're saying here is complete BS. You are doing the same thing Carmack is doing in that you're just sitting back and "imagining" what might be going on in Steve Jobs' head based on really nothing at all.

Games are by definition a sort of time-wasting activity. Steve Jobs is a serious person and like most serious people, if he has time for games it's minimal.

I've worked in the business since the beginning and I can tell you without equivocation that the vast majority of the "serious" computer users, the techs, the developers, the scientists, the artists, and those that create all the stuff that you use, do not play a lot of games.

If you are a hard-core XBox or PSP gamer you are way more likely to be on the inconsequential fringes of the tech scene than you are to be a mover and shaker. Most of the really smart capable people I know in the computer field play a few games now and then, have one or two they may like (especially for nostalgia reasons), but basically haven't played much since they you know ... grew up.

In other words, games *are* toys, and mostly for "kids," or for brief relaxation.

The whole idea that the Mac platform should bend over backwards for games is a fantasy propagated by a lot of XBox boys that is essentially unreasonable. Most of the people actually using the Mac platform are using it for more serious things and couldn't give a damn about games except when they can't run one that they might want to.

Games are just not the big deal that all the teenagers and twenty-somethings think they are and so-called "casual" gaming is far more important and far more popular than all the copies of Halo put together because smart people have better things to do.

I take issue with many thing you are saying. Games are a big deal in that they are not going away and that the are in fact growing in popularity with no sign of slowing down. Microsoft in fact if it knew what it was doing would have tied a ZUNE PLAYER much more tightly to the Xbox 360, created a music store, download games, download movies, applications, whatever. Or ties in the new windows consumer smartphone OS with the 360. There is a 30+ million audiance that could be tapped into there. Microsoft just does not have the vision it needs to truly pull this stuff off.

To say games are toys and are for kids yes you are correct. And that it why Steve Jobs and company have never fully supported game developers from the beginning. I am going back to 1984 and the intro of the Mac. Remember the Alice game that came out with the intro of the mac? It was to be marketed by Apple to show of how unique the mac was but it was pushed aside because it was thought to make the mac look like a game toy.

John Carmack is a smart individual. It would not surprise me if he said those comments just to ignite some interest and have Apple notice this. Carmack is an extrodinary game designer and programmer. Apple and Carmack have met in the past and he has stated publicly that Apple is not consistent with supporting game developers.

Apple markets the iphone/touch as a general purpose do everything device. Which to their credit it is. I am surprised to see so many people bust on Carmack as if he has no idea what he is talking about. Carmack is in some eyes a programming genius. I think he creates envy by doing what he does.

But apparently Apple does not think its a waste of time to market the iPod touch as a gaming device, even though they are serious people, and might be less enthusiastic about this perception. This would make sense. Why would a serious computer maker make a game machine? IBM?

Apple bending over backwards for developers is not common. In fact Apple has a reputation of not being upfront with developers in the first place. So to say that, is just not factual. It would be nice to see Apple work better with developers regarding the iphone/touch, make development a free market by putting ESRB's before purchasing, and stop pulling or disaproving apps and let the app store market sort itself out.
post #117 of 174
John Carmack is "smart" in the exceedingly narrow sense of "is good at coding." That doesn't mean he has any particular insight into what motivates his fellow human beings.

In fact, of what I've seen of the guy, I would guess he has full blown Asperger's Syndrome and is entirely clueless when as to what might "embarrass" Apple, Steve Jobs, or anyone.
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post #118 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Most of what you're saying here is complete BS. You are doing the same thing Carmack is doing in that you're just sitting back and "imagining" what might be going on in Steve Jobs' head based on really nothing at all.

Games are by definition a sort of time-wasting activity. Steve Jobs is a serious person and like most serious people, if he has time for games it's minimal.

I've worked in the business since the beginning and I can tell you without equivocation that the vast majority of the "serious" computer users, the techs, the developers, the scientists, the artists, and those that create all the stuff that you use, do not play a lot of games.

If you are a hard-core XBox or PSP gamer you are way more likely to be on the inconsequential fringes of the tech scene than you are to be a mover and shaker. Most of the really smart capable people I know in the computer field play a few games now and then, have one or two they may like (especially for nostalgia reasons), but basically haven't played much since they you know ... grew up.

In other words, games *are* toys, and mostly for "kids," or for brief relaxation.

The whole idea that the Mac platform should bend over backwards for games is a fantasy propagated by a lot of XBox boys that is essentially unreasonable. Most of the people actually using the Mac platform are using it for more serious things and couldn't give a damn about games except when they can't run one that they might want to.

Games are just not the big deal that all the teenagers and twenty-somethings think they are and so-called "casual" gaming is far more important and far more popular than all the copies of Halo put together because smart people have better things to do.

So smart mature people don't play games?

Take care.......
post #119 of 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

You know it is possible some people, even some people at Apple might think that gaming is holding back [insert your favorite platform here] from business adoption. But I don't think that is the case for Apple or any company, and here's why:

Taking a look at Microsoft, we see that (unfortunately) Windows has become the largest, most powerful gaming platform in the industry, but that certainly has not deterred Windows from being adopted by businesses.

Actually it wasn't that simple and requires a short history lesson.

IBM (International Business Machine) had a well deserved reputation in the business world going back to 1937 when they created the first computer (as we would understand it) using their punch card tabulator technology dating back to the 1880s. IBM's mainframes became nearly iconic during the 1950s and a business staple in the 1960s.

Person computers by contrast were kits like the Altair 8800 (1975) or little more than gaming consoles (Apple ii, Commodore 64, Tandy, etc) with (in their eyes) little business application. It wasn't until IBM itself got into the Personal Computer market in 1981 that businesses started taking the PC seriously as an alternative to mainframes. Then Microsoft came along with DOS and because it ran on IBM compatible machines became the defaco OS of choice.

Graphics and icons were so viewed as "gaming computers" that even Windows 1.0 (Nov 1985) went over like a lead balloon in the business community. The Laserwriter (1986) was the one thing that keep the Mac from being totally dismissed by businesses as WYSIWYG printing for DOS in those days was a joke. It wasn't Windows 3.1 (1992) that Microsoft came out with an OS that the business community ignore boot straight into DOS.
post #120 of 174
"they're not proud of the iPhone being a game machine, they wish it was something else."

Games. What a glorious waste of time. The more and cheaper the better. Pretty good fit for the App Store so far.

I don't blame Apple for being ashamed of that.

But even though that's a major result so far, the platform can certainly accommodate far more useful, practical, educational, etc. applications.

Perhaps the attraction for developers has been the market for games. And then there's the market for gambling. And then there's the market for drugs. . .

Something missing here?

Daniel Swanson

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Daniel Swanson

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