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Apple begins shipping quad-core 27-inch iMac models - Page 5

post #161 of 223
11/14/09 at 12:44pm
I just logged in and mine says prepared for shipment. :-)
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post #162 of 223
11/15/09 at 9:53am
Hey ppl,

I just checked with apple, and anyone who has ordered before this weekend should be seeing a "prepared for shipment" or "shipped" status on the apple store website...

The website has also listed the shipping timeframe as 7-10 days rather than november....

But, Can those of you who have already received your core i5 and core i7 especially, post your experiences with the mac over here.... i know the geekbench numbers.... im talking about personal experience in using it.... like how fluid it is.... how is the graphics looking.... how are the file transfer rates etc.... multi tasking and opening multiple applications etc....

thanks
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post #163 of 223
11/15/09 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akkedian View Post

Hey ppl,

I just checked with apple, and anyone who has ordered before this weekend should be seeing a "prepared for shipment" or "shipped" status on the apple store website...

The website has also listed the shipping timeframe as 7-10 days rather than november....

....

I checked the status of my order, which was placed 11 November, this morning and it stills shows November. It's the i7, with standard HD and memory. Guess I'll keep checking today in hopes that the above information is correct.

Edited to add: I checked again and it still shows November, plus my credit card has not been charged. Given what I just wrote plus the next post, I'm assuming the above statement about shipping refers only to the i5s.
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post #164 of 223
11/15/09 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akkedian View Post

Hey ppl,

I just checked with apple, and anyone who has ordered before this weekend should be seeing a "prepared for shipment" or "shipped" status on the apple store website...

The website has also listed the shipping timeframe as 7-10 days rather than november....

But, Can those of you who have already received your core i5 and core i7 especially, post your experiences with the mac over here.... i know the geekbench numbers.... im talking about personal experience in using it.... like how fluid it is.... how is the graphics looking.... how are the file transfer rates etc.... multi tasking and opening multiple applications etc....

thanks

i7 ordered on 11/6, still showing "Ships: November"
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post #165 of 223
11/15/09 at 6:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaduGrama View Post

i7 ordered on 11/6, still showing "Ships: November"

I ordered my i7 that same day (with extra memory and software, FWIW), and got a shipping notice late Saturday night. Anxiously awaiting the 19th here.
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post #166 of 223
11/15/09 at 7:52pm
Not a real geek here but this is my experience. I received my quad core i7 on the 13th. (ordered on 10/21)

The screen is noticeably large...we're talking a big screen. When I was transferring from my old 20in iMac, looking at screens side by side, there is a major difference in clarity and brightness. I use a black dock and the icons are definitely more high def looking against the dark background,. The new mouse took some getting used to but in a couple of days I give it good reviews. Nice new features on it. You can use your fingers like a touch screen and it's nicely responsive. Has a cool magnification feature like a double tap on the iPhone (or Droid in my case). I actually watched the mouse video on the apple site which let me know how to use it better.

As for speed, right now I only have 4GB of RAM, the default amount. I plan to add more myself later. The computer is very fast. I don't do a lot of graphics work but do use quite a few applications concurrently and all has been very smooth and fluid. I'm not fond of the new little wireless keyboard (seems tiny)...miss my old wired one with the number pad so I might go back to it.

I checked out some photos from a trip to the mountains last year and never saw them look better. It was like seeing a whole new set of photos. The screen is everything I expected it to be. I've watched part of a high def movie on the screen and it was unbelievable.

I'm a little worried about the heat. The top left corner of the monitor is very hot when running but cools down when screensaver kicks in or when asleep. I'm anxious to hear if this is going to be a problem.

OK..that's the take from a guy who probably has way more machine than I need. I think it was well worth the money.
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post #167 of 223
11/15/09 at 9:11pm
Hey,

thanks for your input.... it does seem like there are almost no problems yet with this new imac config.... as for the heating, try to use the smcfancontrol to jack up the fan speed.... apple usually sets fan speeds to an average of 2000rpm, while they can run upto 6500rpm.... i have a 15" mbp with both gfx cards and it runs hot for my 3d cgi movie renderings and stuff, but i jack up the fan speed of both fans to 6200rpm and i get a nice 40-50 deg C temperature inside which is the ideal condition....

as for those of u who ordered ur i7 imac..... i ordered an i7 on 11/9, with 8gb ram.... after some of you who ordered it before me, and mine says prepared for shipment.... so i guess it is prepared for shipment, just hasnt been updated on the website.... maybe u shud see it soon... check tomorrow or the day after....

i welcome more ppl to post about their experience with their mac like the guy above me just did...

thanks
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post #168 of 223
11/16/09 at 3:18am
Hello fr Malaysia, my iMac i7 ordered on 22 Oct just arrived today. Started shipping on the12th from Shanghai and arrived today 16th Nov. The only upgrade I included was 16Gb Ram. The long wait was worth it, its stunning. It runs quiet, the top of the metallic back panel runs hot but maybe its meant to dissipate the heat build up. The speakers are good enough for listening to CDs, in fact it sounds great.

I am very pleased with my purchase and would recommend it to any general home user
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post #169 of 223
11/16/09 at 6:16am
Honestly guys, I wouldn't be too worried about the heat. That's actually not a bad thing; it means the computer is dissipating the heat out of the case. That desktop class i7 CPU is going to be hotter than the previous mobile kind. If you wish to monitor your temperatures better, install something like iStat menus and you can see temperatures for every component in your system and see which one is getting hot and how hot.
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post #170 of 223
11/16/09 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outsider View Post

Honestly guys, I wouldn't be too worried about the heat. That's actually not a bad thing; it means the computer is dissipating the heat out of the case. That desktop class i7 CPU is going to be hotter than the previous mobile kind. If you wish to monitor your temperatures better, install something like iStat menus and you can see temperatures for every component in your system and see which one is getting hot and how hot.

Actually, I agree with the fact that the heat is not an issue.... u can control it by increasing fan speed, there is a setting for that.... but actually, the i5/i7 chips are supposed to be low power chips..... atleast lower than the core 2 duos....

anyways, my i7 shipped yest nite nov 15th at 9pm EST and i had ordered it on nov 9th at 4pm EST.... expected delivery is nov 20th, but fedex usually delivers sooner!.... (i ordered the apple remote also, which shipped on nov 13th and i got it today nov 16th, tho the tracking website said estimated delivery was nov 19th)

will open it up over the weekend, set it up and put a review here....
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post #171 of 223
11/16/09 at 9:56am
After working with my i7 a bit more, the heat is not building up as badly. I've had the machine on for about 7 hours today, working most of the time and it doesn't seem to be as hot. I also changed some power save options so the screen dims sooner and that has helped. Thanks for the advice on the fan speed. I am really starting to love this computer. I finally got everything over...took time to thin out a lot of junk (like cleaning out a cramped basement) and put a lot of stuff on an external hard drive.

Funny how just a year ago some of the forums said we were dreaming to think Macs might one day have a quad core. You all are really gonna love this computer. Hope your wait is not too long.
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post #172 of 223
11/16/09 at 10:40am
This morning I learned that my Oct 20 order will not ship until after Christmas. I canceled and ordered from Apple. They are quoting 7-10 days before shipment. For whatever it's worth, I got upgraded to "priority" shipping for free with no argument from the sales lady at Apple.
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post #173 of 223
11/16/09 at 11:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsm333 View Post

This morning I learned that my Oct 20 order will not ship until after Christmas. I canceled and ordered from Apple. They are quoting 7-10 days before shipment. For whatever it's worth, I got upgraded to "priority" shipping for free with no argument from the sales lady at Apple.

Who did you order from originally? Apple or someone else?
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post #174 of 223
11/16/09 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by akkedian View Post

.... but actually, the i5/i7 chips are supposed to be low power chips..... atleast lower than the core 2 duos.... ...


No they're not, the i5 and i7 cpus are 95 watt (i7 130 watt?) chips. The core 2 cpus in the previous iMacs were 55 watt cpus IIRC.
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post #175 of 223
11/16/09 at 11:49am
My order was placed on Nov 3rd with regular shipping. Until last night it kept saying that the order will be shipped "In November", however yesterday it switched to "Prepared for Shipping", and shipped this morning. Estimated delivery Nov 18th. Somewhat sooner than I expected. Good luck everyone!
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post #176 of 223
11/16/09 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

No they're not, the i5 and i7 cpus are 95 watt (i7 130 watt?) chips. The core 2 cpus in the previous iMacs were 55 watt cpus IIRC.

Correct. They're able to return to using to using desktop-class CPUs because LED backlights taking up much less room than the old CCFL and the wider 16:9 form factors.
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post #177 of 223
11/16/09 at 8:30pm
The Store nearest me said today they will not be getting any i7s in. So at about 3:15/p today I ordered a BTO i7.

Says it will ship Dec 1 and be delivered Dec 4.

Hoping the elves get a coffee surge and fly it out the door sooner.
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post #178 of 223
11/16/09 at 8:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Correct. They're able to return to using to using desktop-class CPUs because LED backlights taking up much less room than the old CCFL and the wider 16:9 form factors.

Besides the LED backlights and 16:9 display size, the Quads are only in the new 27 size.
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post #179 of 223
11/17/09 at 1:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Correct. They're able to return to using to using desktop-class CPUs because LED backlights taking up much less room than the old CCFL and the wider 16:9 form factors.

Yeah but honestly don't you think they could have gotten a 65 watt quad in the old iMac 24"? I do.
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post #180 of 223
11/17/09 at 8:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Yeah but honestly don't you think they could have gotten a 65 watt quad in the old iMac 24"? I do.

Maybe not. Were not just talking a CPU with a higher TDP. Were talking about a larger heatsink to disapate heat, a larger power supply, and as Ben stated the changes from 16:10 to 16:9 and the CCFL to LED are important factors. I cant find any 24 teardown photos at this time but my memory is that the space was quite cramped already. You can look at the 21.5 with no Quad option and the 27 with the Quad option and see how the space differs.
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post #181 of 223
11/18/09 at 12:30am
I ordered mine (i7, standard config plus a remote) on November 8th, and today got shipment confirmation with estimated time of arrival November 28th (to Finland).
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post #182 of 223
11/18/09 at 6:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Yeah but honestly don't you think they could have gotten a 65 watt quad in the old iMac 24"? I do.

Yes I do and think they should have used the SFF Core 2 quads. The old 24" were an absolute ripoff for what you got. The new high end i5/7 models still have a lot of drawback inherent to the all in one form factor (an a sealed one at that), but at least they're on par with a desktop in terms of speed, unlike their predecessors, and they've solved the memory bottleneck.
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post #183 of 223
11/18/09 at 5:56pm
Got mine today! :-). My i7 is migrating my superduper backup over right now since you can't clone the current build over. Can't wait to try it out.
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post #184 of 223
11/19/09 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub View Post

Got mine today! :-). My i7 is migrating my superduper backup over right now since you can't clone the current build over. Can't wait to try it out.

Aplnub, exactly how are you doing it? From which model computer? What kind of cable? or are you doing it wirelessly from Time Capsule?

I have an old iBookG4 60GB (maxed out) HD and am wondering best way to transfer data and settings.
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post #185 of 223
11/19/09 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cascadians View Post

Aplnub, exactly how are you doing it? From which model computer? What kind of cable? or are you doing it wirelessly from Time Capsule?

I have an old iBookG4 60GB (maxed out) HD and am wondering best way to transfer data and settings.

I ran into the problem of not being able to clone directly over from SuperDuper with the unibody MacBook. Evidently, 10.6.2 for everyone without a new iMac is different for some of us with the new iMac. Since I got an i7 with the 4850, I imagine the build is different and will not be compatible across the line until 10.6.3. In other words, you can boot from an earlier version of the OS on a new piece of hardware without all the supported drivers. I got a Kernel Panic booting from my external HDD.

Now, on to your question. I cranked up Migration Assistant. MA takes a very long time. I let it run from 6 pm until I got up this morning and it was finally done.

I have a Western Digital MyBook 1TB HDD and a 2TB HDD I do my SuperDuper backups on. One drive is used once a month to make a back up and then is moved to a separate location to be stored. I used the 1TB drive for this backup and they both are USB. Normally, I prefer Firewire but they were so cheap I decided to go with USB this time.

Since I keep a bootable SuperDuper clone available, I just Migrated an existing backup disk into my new iMac. I then rebooted, logged into my account (be sure if you do it this way the migrated account has Admin privileges), and delete the account you had to create logging on to your Mac for the first time (be sure not to create the same user name that you will use on your soon to be migrated account).

Another thing to note is that I had to reload iTunes as it reported it was corrupted. After a download and reinstall, everything was fine and it picked back up with my iTunes Movie download just like normal. VMWare 3.0 also had to be reloaded. It acted like I had not updated to the latest version of 3.0 and it was up to date.

I prefer not using MA, but in this case, I had to unless I wanted to wait for 10.6.3 to come out since I use SuperDuper to create and maintain bootable clones of my HDD.

My original computer was a 24" C2D iMac Aluminum (first model in Aluminum) with the 2.8 GHz Extreme I think.

For the record, FW 400 is not present on the new iMac, only FW800. Which is fine since an adapter can be bought to be compatible with FW400.

A little scattered but I hope this helps. Feel free to ask anymore questions. I could probably put together a chart showing my steps if I had some time and you think you may need a guide.
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post #186 of 223
11/19/09 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub View Post

I ran into the problem of not being able to clone directly over from SuperDuper with the unibody MacBook. Evidently, 10.6.2 for everyone without a new iMac is different for some of us with the new iMac. Since I got an i7 with the 4850, I imagine the build is different and will not be compatible across the line until 10.6.3. In other words, you can boot from an earlier version of the OS on a new piece of hardware without all the supported drivers. I got a Kernel Panic booting from my external HDD.

Now, on to your question. I cranked up Migration Assistant. MA takes a very long time. I let it run from 6 pm until I got up this morning and it was finally done.

I have a Western Digital MyBook 1TB HDD and a 2TB HDD I do my SuperDuper backups on. One drive is used once a month to make a back up and then is moved to a separate location to be stored. I used the 1TB drive for this backup and they both are USB. Normally, I prefer Firewire but they were so cheap I decided to go with USB this time.

Since I keep a bootable SuperDuper clone available, I just Migrated an existing backup disk into my new iMac. I then rebooted, logged into my account (be sure if you do it this way the migrated account has Admin privileges), and delete the account you had to create logging on to your Mac for the first time (be sure not to create the same user name that you will use on your soon to be migrated account).

Another thing to note is that I had to reload iTunes as it reported it was corrupted. After a download and reinstall, everything was fine and it picked back up with my iTunes Movie download just like normal. VMWare 3.0 also had to be reloaded. It acted like I had not updated to the latest version of 3.0 and it was up to date.

I prefer not using MA, but in this case, I had to unless I wanted to wait for 10.6.3 to come out since I use SuperDuper to create and maintain bootable clones of my HDD.

My original computer was a 24" C2D iMac Aluminum (first model in Aluminum) with the 2.8 GHz Extreme I think.

For the record, FW 400 is not present on the new iMac, only FW800. Which is fine since an adapter can be bought to be compatible with FW400.

A little scattered but I hope this helps. Feel free to ask anymore questions. I could probably put together a chart showing my steps if I had some time and you think you may need a guide.

Why didn't you restore from a TM backup? Seems like those have less issues than MA, or am I wrong on this?
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post #187 of 223
11/19/09 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Why didn't you restore from a TM backup? Seems like those have less issues than MA, or am I wrong on this?

I don't use TM. I have used it before with mixed results. Too many error messages. Also, TM does not create bootable backups. If your computer goes down, you can't immediately boot from a backup on another Mac. Too many downsides with TM in my opinion. To be fair, I do use it with my Time Capsule but by no means do I rely on it. It is a last ditch effort if something goes horribly wrong.

To be fair, SuperDuper works flawlessly for this type of task every time. I have just showed one potential problem and it is really a problem with me buying the latest and greatest hardware and living on the edge.
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post #188 of 223
11/19/09 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Why didn't you restore from a TM backup? Seems like those have less issues than MA, or am I wrong on this?

I don’t get it, either. TM has made it a breeze to restoring my system a breeze.
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post #189 of 223
11/19/09 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub View Post

I don't use TM. I have used it before with mixed results. Too many error messages. Also, TM does not create bootable backups. If your computer goes down, you can't immediately boot from a backup on another Mac. Too many downsides with TM in my opinion. To be fair, I do use it with my Time Capsule but by no means do I rely on it. It is a last ditch effort if something goes horribly wrong.

To be fair, SuperDuper works flawlessly for this type of task every time. I have just showed one potential problem and it is really a problem with me buying the latest and greatest hardware and living on the edge.

My advice is to make an 8GB partition on your drive(s) and use Disk Utility to restore the SL Install Disc to it. This way you can always hold down the Option key at boot up to access that partition like you would the DVD. Its also a lot faster than optical media. On an external drive this makes easy work of doing repairs for others with Macs. No FW or another Mac needed, USB works swimmingly.
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post #190 of 223
11/19/09 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

My advice is to make an 8GB partition on your drive(s) and use Disk Utility to restore the SL Install Disc to it. This way you can always hold down the Option key at boot up to access that partition like you would the DVD. Its also a lot faster than optical media. On an external drive this makes easy work of doing repairs for others with Macs. No FW or another Mac needed, USB works swimmingly.

The problem is not USB, external drive, or FW. Close a version of 10.6.2 on current Hardware before the iMac update. Try booting off that cloned drive. It won't work because the builds lack the correct hardware drivers. Maybe it would have worked in Safe Mode. I may try Safe Mode tonight for kicks.

Believe, SuperDuper is way better than TM for me. Remember, I need a bootable clone.
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post #191 of 223
11/19/09 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub View Post

The problem is not USB, external drive, or FW. Close a version of 10.6.2 on current Hardware before the iMac update. Try booting off that cloned drive. It won't work because the builds lack the correct hardware drivers. Maybe it would have worked in Safe Mode. I may try Safe Mode tonight for kicks.

Believe, SuperDuper is way better than TM for me. Remember, I need a bootable clone.

Im not saying clone a drive. Im saying use Disk Utility to restore the OS X Install DIsc to a partition so you dont need to clone a drive. This also helps with doing repairs to the partition because you never need to have the physical DVD with you as its on a local partition. Its a huge time saver.
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post #192 of 223
11/19/09 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub View Post

I don't use TM. I have used it before with mixed results. Too many error messages. Also, TM does not create bootable backups. If your computer goes down, you can't immediately boot from a backup on another Mac. Too many downsides with TM in my opinion. To be fair, I do use it with my Time Capsule but by no means do I rely on it. It is a last ditch effort if something goes horribly wrong.

To be fair, SuperDuper works flawlessly for this type of task every time. I have just showed one potential problem and it is really a problem with me buying the latest and greatest hardware and living on the edge.

Yeah I use SD as well, just for the bootable clones. That's a potentially bacon saving backup.

I read where people have flawless restores from TM but MA seems to have more problems. If I were to get a new machine I think I would restore from a TM backup.
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post #193 of 223
11/19/09 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Im not saying clone a drive. Im saying use Disk Utility to restore the OS X Install DIsc to a partition so you dont need to clone a drive. This also helps with doing repairs to the partition because you never need to have the physical DVD with you as its on a local partition. Its a huge time saver.

I guess I could clone over my install disk like you said but I have tried previously to make an image of the SL DVD I purchased to hurry up the installation and couldn't get it to work. I need to revisit that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac View Post

Yeah I use SD as well, just for the bootable clones. That's a potentially bacon saving backup.

I read where people have flawless restores from TM but MA seems to have more problems. If I were to get a new machine I think I would restore from a TM backup.

Those were the only two problems. iTunes and VMWare. If TM is quicker and you keep an up to date copy, it may well be worth it.
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post #194 of 223
11/19/09 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub View Post

I guess I could clone over my install disk like you said but I have tried previously to make an image of the SL DVD I purchased to hurry up the installation and couldn't get it to work. I need to revisit that.

Dont use cloning software, use Disk Utility. You click on drive on the left-hand column and then choose the Restore tab from the right-side area. Then its simply a matter of dragging the SL DVD from the left-hand side to the area for source and then dragging the destiantion partition in the same way.

PS: The trickiest thing about this method (and oddly non-Apple-like in usability) is that you have to use the drag-and-drop method to copy the Source and Destination partitions. The Image button next to the Source field wont let you choose the partition. Its the only caveat for this slick setup. After that youll be able to hold down the Option key and boot to the SL Install Disk as if it were a DVD.
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post #195 of 223
11/19/09 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Dont use cloning software, use Disk Utility. You click on drive on the left-hand column and then choose the Restore tab from the right-side area. Then its simply a matter of dragging the SL DVD from the left-hand side to the area for source and then dragging the destiantion partition in the same way.

PS: The trickiest thing about this method (and oddly non-Apple-like in usability) is that you have to use the drag-and-drop method to copy the Source and Destination partitions. The Image button next to the Source field wont let you choose the partition. Its the only caveat for this slick setup. After that youll be able to hold down the Option key and boot to the SL Install Disk as if it were a DVD.

Poor choice of words on my part. I make images using Disk Utility. I will try it again.
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post #196 of 223
11/19/09 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub View Post

Poor choice of words on my part. I make images using Disk Utility. I will try it again.

I didnt even notice it has the 3 different instructions on it for making the copies. BTW, this didnt work with Leopard. Its new with SL.

(click for full size)
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post #197 of 223
11/19/09 at 2:13pm
Thanks Aplnub!

I called the Store nearest me: FW400 --> 800 = $30 cable.

If they do it on my 1:1 I have to leave it there 48 hours. Too addicted, will buy cable, 48 hrs worth $30. They said AppleCare will handhold me if anything goes wrong, LOL

Any other tips for this dummie, like that great one of not using old id account when first setting up new iMac since it will be transfered? Leery of disaster.
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post #198 of 223
11/19/09 at 2:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cascadians View Post

Thanks Aplnub!

I called the Store nearest me: FW400 --> 800 = $30 cable.

If they do it on my 1:1 I have to leave it there 48 hours. Too addicted, will buy cable, 48 hrs worth $30. They said AppleCare will handhold me if anything goes wrong, LOL

Any other tips for this dummie, like that great one of not using old id account when first setting up new iMac since it will be transfered? Leery of disaster.

If you can wait for a package to arrive in the mail, Monoprice is the cheapest place to cables and adapters from.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/su...03&cp_id=10301
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #199 of 223
11/19/09 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cascadians View Post

Thanks Aplnub!

I called the Store nearest me: FW400 --> 800 = $30 cable.

If they do it on my 1:1 I have to leave it there 48 hours. Too addicted, will buy cable, 48 hrs worth $30. They said AppleCare will handhold me if anything goes wrong, LOL

Any other tips for this dummie, like that great one of not using old id account when first setting up new iMac since it will be transfered? Leery of disaster.

It's is really straight forward. Solipsism has a good link there too. I wouldn't be able to wait but I know Best Buy has adapters but they are expensive, like $48 or something when I was in there the other day.
Hard-Core.
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Hard-Core.
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post #200 of 223
11/19/09 at 7:42pm
Thanks! Since I've had really good luck with all the cables (for AirTunes) I've already bought at the Apple Store, will just buy the 400 -> 800 cable there. Yeah I'm like a rat at the lever, pushing for the fix, checking n refreshing my shipping page, making a nice home for the new i7, like preparing a nursery. Sure will lavish enough attention on the thing
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