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Apple's Mini DisplayPort officially adopted by VESA - Page 6

post #201 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

My point is that as long as your stuff is good, you won't have to think about it. New models with those standards will be around for years.

But at some time, when you need something new, you'll have gotten your money's worth from it, and it will be time to move on.

But I did have to think about it, every single damn time I put in a DVD. The PS3 would switch to 480p instead of staying in 1080i. And of course this meant that the projector had to search for like 15 seconds to find and sync to the the video signal. Same thing on returning to the PS3 main menu. Accidentally hit play from the menu or stop from the movie? Better be prepared to wait for that re-sync.

It was so maddening that I opened up my remote control and disabled the stop button.

While our current equipment will obviously keep working (no need to point that out), the fact remains that in order to make a single component upgrade, it was necessary to trash all existing equipment and upgrade the entire system.

This is a concern that shouldn't be dismissed when discussing A/V interconnect standards. I'm not suggesting that display port is bad, or that we shouldn't switch. But rather that there are trade-offs involved. Compatibility with current equipment is a valid concern... even though that equipment still works today.
post #202 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcfa View Post

All of these new connectors may be cute, but certainly not professional.

A professional connector is positively LOCKING in place.
Think XLR connectors, think ethernet connector, DVI, heck even a old VGA port had screws that KEEP things IN PLACE.

By comparison there's constant issues with lose FW cables, lose mini-USB plugs, and now we'll likely get ever more fragile.

You can't have a professional production environment if you have to worry about someone bumping into your equipment and connectivity goes ape shit.

I wish Apple would pay as much attention to these things to compact and sexy ID.
I don't care if it's thumb screws, clips, hooks, latches, BNC connectors, magnets or whatever, but a cable has to be designed to stay put and securely connected. The current crop of cute and small connectors just doesn't cut it.

I agree with problems about locking. Apple used to have special connectors that were the same as far as physical connections were concerned, but had edges that locked. Much better, but not standard.

Sadly, industry is moving that way. Locking connectors take up more room, and cost more. All of which is anathema to consumers, and today, except in high end commercial use, consumer standards rule.
post #203 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

But I did have to think about it, every single damn time I put in a DVD. The PS3 would switch to 480p instead of staying in 1080i. And of course this meant that the projector had to search for like 15 seconds to find and sync to the the video signal. Same thing on returning to the PS3 main menu. Accidentally hit play from the menu or stop from the movie? Better be prepared to wait for that re-sync.

It was so maddening that I opened up my remote control and disabled the stop button.

That's a different problem though. I have problems like that from my DVr cable box to my HDTV. Handshaking isn't as good as it should be. I get a message when I turn the unit on, or am changing channels, about how it doesn't recognize this or that, but then works.

Quote:
While our current equipment will obviously keep working (no need to point that out), the fact remains that in order to make a single component upgrade, it was necessary to trash all existing equipment and upgrade the entire system.

This is a concern that shouldn't be dismissed when discussing A/V interconnect standards. I'm not suggesting that display port is bad, or that we shouldn't switch. But rather that there are trade-offs involved. Compatibility with current equipment is a valid concern... even though that equipment still works today.

It's not that I don't have empathy for you here, because I do, but technology marches on. I've wired my entire house with1Gb/s Ethernet. I'd like to move to 10 Gb/s when it becomes more common. What a pain (literally) that will be! But that's the way it is.
post #204 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

They just bought a new iMac for school and yet they just can't plug in their cable box or Wii. Instead, they have to research the situation and buy additional equipment.

Assuming you are talking about the DP input on the 27 iMac, Im not following. How were they able to do this before but not now? If you are talking about the DP output, all Macs with DP can output video to HDMI/DVI monitors and HDTVs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I agree with problems about locking.

As I recall, DP has specs for optional locking.
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post #205 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As I recall, DP has specs for optional locking.

The wikipedia entry shows a cable that looks like has a latch with button release. I don't see how that would work with mini DisplayPort.
post #206 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

No- you're the one misinformed. Is it 7.1?

Yes. Up to 8 channel 24 bit linear PCM @ 6.144 Mbit/s bit rate uncompressed is the spec.

Which you would know if you could Google "display port" and "audio".
post #207 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yes. Up to 8 channel 24 bit linear PCM @ 6.144 Mbit/s bit rate uncompressed is the spec.

Which you would know if you could Google "display port" and "audio".

But who has the time, vinea!
post #208 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As I recall, DP has specs for optional locking.

And you know what that means.
post #209 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

The wikipedia entry shows a cable that looks like has a latching cable with button release. I don't see how that would work with mini DisplayPort.

The biggest suckiness of both HDMI and mDP is that there isn't a latching or other method of securing the cable other than friction. I've had HDMI pull out from a long heavy cable up to the projector.
post #210 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

You're right but I think a display without audio capabilities, even if it wasn't necessary for a particular task, is myopic. Today's small cost of built-in audio in a display should never limit the product's market versatility.

No need to limit it, which is why it's optional in the spec. I think it would be wise for Apple to start using the audio spec, while leaving it up to the Display manufacturer's as to whether or not to use the audio signal.

Blindly saying everyone should require it, even if they don't need it is just wasteful and not necessarily a good thing for the consumer. The fact that the audio piece is in the spec is a good thing.
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post #211 of 255
Wow this was a really poor thread with regard to technical info or at least some supporting their statements with a few facts.

We have the "usual suspects" that seem to take every topic that has anything to do with display technology and the Blu-ray or TV angle.

As one poster said before.

DisplayPort = Computer display.

HDMI- Consumer Electronics display


HDMI goes up to 4k at video refresh rates ( < 30 fps)
DP needs to handle 4k display of static images (meaning > 30fps)

Meaning they will

He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
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post #212 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Wow this was a really poor thread with regard to technical info or at least some supporting their statements with a few facts.

We have the "usual suspects" that seem to take every topic that has anything to do with display technology and the Blu-ray or TV angle.

As one poster said before.

DisplayPort = Computer display.

HDMI- Consumer Electronics display


HDMI goes up to 4k at video refresh rates ( < 30 fps)
DP needs to handle 4k display of static images (meaning > 30fps)

Meaning they will


Not to belabor the point, but you do realize that a movie is just a bunch of static images in a series right?

In the end, it all comes down to throughput.
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post #213 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

Yes. Up to 8 channel 24 bit linear PCM @ 6.144 Mbit/s bit rate uncompressed is the spec.

Which you would know if you could Google "display port" and "audio".

It’s even been stated in this very thread if he cared indulge in any sort of reading comprehension.


Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

And you know what that means.

Besides it being optional, it also means that very few devices will use it and you’ll pay a premium for cables with the latch, if you can find them.

Here is one from Newegg…

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812270242
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The biggest suckiness of both HDMI and mDP is that there isn't a latching or other method of securing the cable other than friction. I've had HDMI pull out from a long heavy cable up to the projector.

HDMI has optional latching, but I am not seeing it for mDP.

http://www.displayport.org/cms/?q=co...mance-standard
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post #214 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It’s even been stated in this very thread if he cared indulge in any sort of reading comprehension.



Besides it being optional, it also means that very few devices will use it and you’ll pay a premium for cables with the latch, if you can find them.

Here is one from Newegg…

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812270242

HDMI has optional latching, but I am not seeing it for mDP.

http://www.displayport.org/cms/?q=co...mance-standard

I wonder why they just don't implement the magnetic latching? I absolutely LOVE that feature on a power cord.
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post #215 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

No need to limit it, which is why it's optional in the spec. I think it would be wise for Apple to start using the audio spec, while leaving it up to the Display manufacturer's as to whether or not to use the audio signal.

Blindly saying everyone should require it, even if they don't need it is just wasteful and not necessarily a good thing for the consumer. The fact that the audio piece is in the spec is a good thing.

Its too bad they didnt use it in the 24 LED Apple Display. Instead you have to use USB. Obviously they have their reasons but what it is I cant guess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

As one poster said before.

DisplayPort = Computer display.

HDMI- Consumer Electronics display

CE doesnt often excludes PCs anymore. It might be more accurate to refer to these devices as consumer electronic appliances. Personally, I dont care as I understand the context given, but Im sure someone will pedantically and vehemently take issue with it.
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post #216 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

It’s too bad they didn’t use it in the 24” LED Apple Display. Instead you have to use USB. Obviously they have their reasons but what it is I can’t guess.




CE doesn’t often excludes PCs anymore. It might be more accurate to refer to these devices as consumer electronic appliances. Personally, I don’t care as I understand the context given, but I’m sure someone will pedantically and vehemently take issue with it.

Agreed. I can't imagine why, especially if it was designed by their own shop. You would think they'd want to showcase it properly.

Ditto on the CE bit...
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post #217 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Besides it being optional, it also means that very few devices will use it and youll pay a premium for cables with the latch, if you can find them.

Here is one from Newegg
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812270242

HDMI has optional latching, but I am not seeing it for mDP.
http://www.displayport.org/cms/?q=co...mance-standard

Yup, that's what will happen.

If you want something to be used, you can't make it optional.
post #218 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

It will be as long lived as your equipment is. When you buy new stuff, you won't care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

My point is that as long as your stuff is good, you won't have to think about it.

Are these comments related to the proposed gelding?
post #219 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Are these comments related to the proposed gelding?

Er, ...
post #220 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

No need to limit it, which is why it's optional in the spec. I think it would be wise for Apple to start using the audio spec, while leaving it up to the Display manufacturer's as to whether or not to use the audio signal.

I agree with most of this statement. However, I agree more with Melgross that optional in a spec means it won't be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

Blindly saying everyone should require it, even if they don't need it is just wasteful and not necessarily a good thing for the consumer. The fact that the audio piece is in the spec is a good thing.

I'll have to disagree here. Blindly... is not the same as myopic. Apple has always added future or advanced technology, not currently needed, as a forward looking policy. Gigibit ethernet, bluetooth, and n-draft WiFI comes to mind. As I stated, the cost is minimal in volume, so IMO it is more beneficial to the consumer, in the long run, to have the display audio option onboard.

What is wasteful, on Apple's part, is having an mDP connection in a 27" iMac and not implementing the I/O audio portion of the DP spec in its hardware at market release.
post #221 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljocampo View Post

I agree with most of this statement. However, I agree more with Melgross that optional in a spec means it won't be used.



I'll have to disagree here. Blindly... is not the same as myopic. Apple has always added future or advanced technology, not currently needed, as a forward looking policy. Gigibit ethernet, bluetooth, and n-draft WiFI comes to mind. As I stated, the cost is minimal in volume, so IMO it is more beneficial to the consumer, in the long run, to have the display audio option onboard.

What is wasteful, on Apple's part, is having an mDP connection in a 27" iMac and not implementing the I/O audio portion of the DP spec in its hardware at market release.

How do you know what the cost is? I haven't seen any data as to the difference between a bare connector and one that handles audio. Even if it is cheap, especially when you manufacture in volume, minimal costs tend to add up. Requiring a display maker to use a more complex adapter for audio that it doesn't even support is just silly.

If it was really that simple and cheap, why wouldn't they be using it already?

The market will decide things like this. If there is a demand for it, manufacturers will offer it.
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post #222 of 255
Full-sized DVI, mini-DVI, micro-DVI and now mini display port... I'm getting sick of buying all those adapters, Apple!

But I think Apple is wasting its time with mini display port. Next year Light Peak will be out and as long as Intel doesn't stuff it up, it will replace a multitude of connectors, including display port and HDMI.
post #223 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by gresh28 View Post

Full-sized DVI, mini-DVI, micro-DVI and now mini display port... I'm getting sick of buying all those adapters, Apple!

But I think Apple is wasting its time with mini display port. Next year Light Peak will be out and as long as Intel doesn't stuff it up, it will replace a multitude of connectors, including display port and HDMI.

Expected to be available at the end of 2010. I wouldn't expect it to have any significant traction until two or three years later. Adoption doesn't happen overnight.

Chances are, Intel won't be releasing it as a royalty free connector either, meaning takeup will most likely be even slower until technology advances to the point where adoption of a faster technology is no longer an option.
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post #224 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by gresh28 View Post

But I think Apple is wasting its time with mini display port. Next year Light Peak will be out and as long as Intel doesn't stuff it up, it will replace a multitude of connectors, including display port and HDMI.

I agree. Light Peak has the potential to do away with every peripheral port now in use. In a couple of years, say goodbye to USB, Firewire, DVI, VGA and all the rest. I can't wait to see all of the adapters for Light Peak.
post #225 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

HDMI is better- more universal.

Display Port and now Mini Display port are now standards. PC's will start using them over HDMI so in a few years, you'll be saying the same thing about Display Port.
post #226 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

How do you know what the cost is? I haven't seen any data as to the difference between a bare connector and one that handles audio. Even if it is cheap, especially when you manufacture in volume, minimal costs tend to add up. Requiring a display maker to use a more complex adapter for audio that it doesn't even support is just silly.

Sure I don't have the cost figures, but if you can give away an FM radio free as a marketing ploy, I'd venture to guess what we're talking about is dirt cheap. It's surely doable within Apple's premium margins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

If it was really that simple and cheap, why wouldn't they be using it already?

Profit & Greed pure and simple. Companies that are selling cheap goods to get the most profit from their consumers will not give you anything extra. That's why I think the PD spec shouldn't be optional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

The market will decide things like this. If there is a demand for it, manufacturers will offer it.

Your right about this. Apple is the prime example. It gives more for the money, even when you don't need it just yet, and its customers are brand loyal willing to pay more.
post #227 of 255
I've just had a shouting match with a 'Specialist' at my local AppleStore, informing him that he and his team of 'Geniuses' were wrong - the Mini DisplayPort IS capable of driving 30" Cinema Displays.

According to him, and his Genius mates, Apple doesn't officially support the 30" Cinema Display via Mini Display Port on the original aluminum MacBooks or mDP enabled Mac minis. According to him, the only machine capable of supporting a 30" Cinema Display via Mini DisplayPort is the aluminium MacBook Pro, and the new plastic unibody MacBooks and the latest version of the Mac mini. He didn't have an answer as to why I was experiencing problems with my MacBook Pro as well.

When I showed him the specs on Apple's website, he informed me that the Apple website had nothing to do with the Apple Retail Store I was standing in, and that he couldn't comment on the content of the website. Convenient.

It's interesting that the ProCare mambership that I purchased has also been fuckall use to me - it took the store 72 hours (so much for 'First on bench') to get back to me explaining that they couldn't find a fault with my 30" Cinema Display, even when I provided them with two video clips of the problem occuring.

So the moral of the story is that even if Apple will say that something will work, chances are it won't, and when you tackle them, they'll deny they even said it in the first place even when you present them with evidence to the contrary. So much for Apple coming first in Customer Support.

Oh, and ProCare is a REAL waste of money!
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post #228 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah View Post

I've just had a shouting match with a 'Specialist' at my local AppleStore, informing him that he and his team of 'Geniuses' were wrong - the Mini DisplayPort IS capable of driving 30" Cinema Displays.

According to him, and his Genius mates, Apple doesn't officially support the 30" Cinema Display via Mini Display Port on the original aluminum MacBooks or mDP enabled Mac minis. According to him, the only machine capable of supporting a 30" Cinema Display via Mini DisplayPort is the aluminium MacBook Pro, and the new plastic unibody MacBooks and the latest version of the Mac mini. He didn't have an answer as to why I was experiencing problems with my MacBook Pro as well.

When I showed him the specs on Apple's website, he informed me that the Apple website had nothing to do with the Apple Retail Store I was standing in, and that he couldn't comment on the content of the website. Convenient.

It's interesting that the ProCare mambership that I purchased has also been fuckall use to me - it took the store 72 hours (so much for 'First on bench') to get back to me explaining that they couldn't find a fault with my 30" Cinema Display, even when I provided them with two video clips of the problem occuring.

So the moral of the story is that even if Apple will say that something will work, chances are it won't, and when you tackle them, they'll deny they even said it in the first place even when you present them with evidence to the contrary. So much for Apple coming first in Customer Support.

Oh, and ProCare is a REAL waste of money!

Did you ask him to show you this official statement from Apple? The guy sounds like a douche. Unless he can show you something documented from Apple showing this limitation, then I would pursue this with corporate.
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post #229 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelsalt View Post

its also lower resolution

Umm, HDMI can most certainly achieve higher resolutions than 1920x1080.

That said, HDMI really isn't meant for a computer --> monitor configuration, IMO. The only real benefit of HDMI with computers is if you're looking to hook up your machine to an HDTV, as HDMI beats VGA hands down any day.
post #230 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea View Post

The biggest suckiness of both HDMI and mDP is that there isn't a latching or other method of securing the cable other than friction. I've had HDMI pull out from a long heavy cable up to the projector.

I've managed to make it work without problems, but I support the cable in a way that there isn't much of a net force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

Did you ask him to show you this official statement from Apple? The guy sounds like a douche. Unless he can show you something documented from Apple showing this limitation, then I would pursue this with corporate.

Apple doesn't seem to acknowledge problems with the mDP adapter to 30" displays. I haven't seen anyone say that it works fine for them. Both products are of their own brand, I don't understand why it's a problem.
post #231 of 255
One of the goals of standards is that they make things "just work" together.

If you need adapters, as you do with all of Apple's connectors, then, in the real world, it's not a standard, regardless of whatever bits of paper VESA sign.

HDMI may be technically inferior, but I'd like to see the stats on how many useful HDMI devices Mac owners have in their houses compared to mini-DisplayPort. I bet it's a million to one, minimum.

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post #232 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

How do you know what the cost is? I haven't seen any data as to the difference between a bare connector and one that handles audio. Even if it is cheap, especially when you manufacture in volume, minimal costs tend to add up. Requiring a display maker to use a more complex adapter for audio that it doesn't even support is just silly.

If it was really that simple and cheap, why wouldn't they be using it already?

The market will decide things like this. If there is a demand for it, manufacturers will offer it.

History has shown that if something isn't built-in, if won't become popular.

Most people won't even know what it is. It's go to be standardized. It's got to be available to everyone. It's got to be in all machines. Everything must work "out of the box".

Anytime you don't follow the rules, you are taking a big chance.
post #233 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post

ATI and Nvidia both go DUAL DVI and HDMI but ATI also adds a display port. Looks like the larger Dell monitors 27-30" provide a display port while below is HDMI and DVI only.

We've already had people show that it isn't true.

http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

24" monitors that cost a bit over $400 aren't exactly professional.

Why don't you check these things out first?

Displayport has one big advantage over other ports. Monitors will cost much less, as most of the electronics in the display isn't needed.

I think that $15 for an adapter vs saving over $100 on the monitor is a pretty good tradeoff.
post #234 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Displayport has one big advantage over other ports. Monitors will cost much less, as most of the electronics in the display isn't needed.

I think that $15 for an adapter vs saving over $100 on the monitor is a pretty good tradeoff.

Saving a $100 compared to what? Lots of sub $100 devices have ports other than DP. Am I missing something? (honest question)
post #235 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

History has shown that if something isn't built-in, if won't become popular.

Most people won't even know what it is. It's go to be standardized. It's got to be available to everyone. It's got to be in all machines. Everything must work "out of the box".

Anytime you don't follow the rules, you are taking a big chance.

You mean like DTS in a DVD player? It wasn't required, yet it's pretty much standard now in any tuner or dvd player that you buy. I see no reason to require audio be implemented when it's optional in the standard.
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post #236 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Displayport has one big advantage over other ports. Monitors will cost much less, as most of the electronics in the display isn't needed.

I think that $15 for an adapter vs saving over $100 on the monitor is a pretty good tradeoff.

I really doubt that. There are monitors with DVI close to $120 right now. A display-port only version of that isn't going to cost $20.
post #237 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post

I really doubt that. There are monitors with DVI close to $120 right now. A display-port only version of that isn't going to cost $20.

Doubt it all you like Jeff. That's the fact.

There will always be cheap, older models repackaged to sell for very little.

http://www2.electronicproducts.com/D...2008-html.aspx
post #238 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

You mean like DTS in a DVD player? It wasn't required, yet it's pretty much standard now in any tuner or dvd player that you buy. I see no reason to require audio be implemented when it's optional in the standard.

There's still much more media without DTS than with it, because it got established later, as few devices had it due to licensing issues.

But when those issues were resolved, it became cheaper to include, and so came on many more devices.

It still follows what I said.
post #239 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Doubt it all you like Jeff. That's the fact.

There will always be cheap, older models repackaged to sell for very little.

http://www2.electronicproducts.com/D...2008-html.aspx

My contention wasn't that there wasn't a cost savings. I'm sure there is some. My contention is your claimed figure.

That link still doesn't tell me where you get your costs, no figures are given. Your $100 figure seems pretty darn steep given that it's a mature standard and that article shows a single IC can handle multiple standards. They don't offer a part number that I have noticed to try and find the chip price.

Given that D-SUB VGA is still being offered, it would probably take several years to get rid of DVI. I think Apple's LED Cinema Display is the only one that gets rid of DVI and older.
post #240 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

There's still much more media without DTS than with it, because it got established later, as few devices had it due to licensing issues.

But when those issues were resolved, it became cheaper to include, and so came on many more devices.

It still follows what I said.

No, it says exactly the opposite. Even though DTS is optional, you will rarely ever find a player without it.

Market tends to fix this sort of thing on it's own. Requiring audio when it's not needed just adds unnecessary costs.
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3.4GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 / iMac 27" 2.8 Quad i7 / 17" Macbook Pro Unibody / Mac Mini HTPC / iPhone 6 Plus 64GB /iPad with Retina Display 64 GB
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