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Apple's Mini DisplayPort officially adopted by VESA - Page 2

post #41 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well, you were the one who cited universality as the standard by which we should pick technologies.

When all the current HDTVs and monitors have HDMI built into them- guess what? That's universal.
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post #42 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

We do? You have to go into the high end business sections of Dell, HP, ETC, to find any displays with regular displayport and Mini-DP one year later still has exactly one display. How many years have we heard that displayport is going to break out and become the standard only to have nothing happen? Right now its a failed connector until it proves otherswise.

Yeah, we do. Dell was supporting DP signaling before Apple ever did. YOu have HP, ATI, Nvidia, Dell. YOure not going to find it on cheap computers, but it is the display standard for the future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post

Well DVD is more universal, make up your mind.

Even when everyone tells him different he still holds to his ignorance. Ive never seen someone be wrong so many times while still holding to their delusions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

It's part of the standard now. Anyone can use this as long as it's built to spec.

The more important question is, "Why isn't their audio when DP/mini-DP supports it?"

That is a good question. I hope the next MBPs support it.
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post #43 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

No, I'm right. I'm not interested in HDTV's here. We're talking about computers, or have you forgotten already?

http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

That search was really easy. Even you could do it.

OMG- you show me 1 or is that 2 others!????
FYI- HDTVs are also computer monitors.
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post #44 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

When all the current HDTVs and monitors have HDMI built into them- guess what? That's universal.

Quite a few monitors don't have HDMI.

Can you give a link stating that all monitors have HDMI?
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post #45 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Apple doesn't own Mini DP. VESA now "Owns" it.

It took over five years before more than a couple of monitors got HDMI.

This will also take some time, but likely will move faster.

Monitors had DVI connectors for a very long time. HDMI to DVI cables existed as well. HDMI certified is a different thing though, and I think it has to do with the monitor being able to send a signal back through the cable telling the source it's ok to output protected material to it.
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post #46 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

OMG- you show me 1 or is that 2 others!????

You are a problem.

There are dozens there. Are you simply too lazy to read any of it?
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post #47 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Monitors had DVI connectors for a very long time. HDMI to DVI cables existed as well. HDMI certified is a different thing though, and I think it has to do with the monitor being able to send a signal back through the cable telling the source it's ok to output protected material to it.

SOME monitors have HDMI. By no means all, as Techstud is stating.
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post #48 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

HDMI is better- more universal.

I would have to disagree with that. I don't know of a single manufacturer that supplies only HDMI outputs on a PC. Those are mainly to push output to a TV type device. As far as I know, they all still include a PC specific Port, which is what this standard would apply to. Replacing older DVI/VGA ports with a new higher bandwidth port.

Lets face it. Computer resolution needs aren't getting smaller or staying the same. They are getting larger every year.

I'm puzzled by this talk that it's failed as a standard. It was just now adopted as a standard, which is an important first step, no?
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post #49 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Even when everyone tells him different he still holds to his ignorance. Ive never seen someone be wrong so many times while still holding to their delusions.

That was an excellent point, and a glaring flaw in his argument.

If anything, this is better simply because it moves technology along. We should never settle on something just because everyone goes with it. If that was the case, we would still be using component video cables on our hdtv's and hdmi would never have been introduced.
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post #50 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:42am
So is Audio mandated by any version of the standard over DP? I am waiting for Apple to update the firmware to support audio over DP through to HDMI! Any news on THAT?!
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post #51 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Wrong. We've already discussed this in a thread of which you were a part. Many Dell computers include Display ports, and all new ATI 58xx cards do. Nvidia based cards are also beginning to support Displayport.

Please stick to facts.

Like said Dells are mostly precision workstations and the the displays are only sold through the business store.

Also, most video chipsets have have displayport capability for a couple generations now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

So is Audio mandated by any version of the standard over DP? I am waiting for Apple to update the firmware to support audio over DP through to HDMI! Any news on THAT?!

Not a firmware issue. Displayport isn't wired to the audio on the motherboard.
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post #52 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

SOME monitors have HDMI. By no means all, as Techstud is stating.

Just direct him to the 43 LCD monitors at newegg that don't have DVI or HDMI and be done with him
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...e=&srchInDesc=
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post #53 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

OMG- you show me 1 or is that 2 others!????
FYI- HDTVs are also computer monitors.

No, they aren't. They are capable of displaying a signal from a PC, but when they can do all do edge to edge output without overscan, they are just compatible.
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post #54 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:47am
Look... lets just clear the air about all of this:

HDMI is a consumer electronics minded standard. It is designed to hookup media devices for the playback of HD movies. The mostly widely adopted version of the HDMI standard is limited to 1920x1200 resolution. The latest standard will actually go up to 2650x1600. The standard is not capable to move beyond this (at this time). TVs and other media viewing products have no need to push beyond this level so more then likely this standard will stagnate from here (opinion).

DP is a standard for computers. It is designed to provide a great amount of throughput to push high-resolution high grade content. Its introductory support included 2650x1600 and can push much higher resolutions with the ability to grow. There are other important aspects to DP including the daisy chaining of displays (for multi-mon).


Now here is a big key.... the DP standard is royalty free! HDMI requires royalty. This makes DP a free standard where as HDMI not.


In the end... the truth is.... DP is for Computers and HDMI is for consumer electronics. The reading of the standards makes this very obvious and does not try to hide any aspect!
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post #55 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

No, they aren't. They are capable of displaying a signal from a PC, but when they can do all do edge to edge output without overscan, they are just compatible.

Well, saying they are all monitors is like saying all cars are automobiles lol. It's obvious that if the TV is capable of displaying a 1920x1080 digital image (or even 1280x720) then it can act as a computer monitor, but are all computer monitors HDTV's? Of course not.

He wasn't wrong in what he said, it just didn't do much for his argument.
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post #56 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

I don't believe that's correct.



That's definitely not correct.

Its available from Apple (in a unique form) and some workstations from HP and Dell and on third party video cards. Its stagnate.
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post #57 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

When all the current HDTVs and monitors have HDMI built into them- guess what? That's universal.

Well, when they do, it will be, but I don't see how that supports your argument that we should then freeze the technology and live with it forever.
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post #58 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

So is Audio mandated by any version of the standard over DP? I am waiting for Apple to update the firmware to support audio over DP through to HDMI! Any news on THAT?!

It seems as though the pinouts carry it. It's up to the software to utilize it.
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post #59 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:49am
Relax, it's all right here:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/se...ayport&x=0&y=0


Quote:
Originally Posted by TallPaul View Post

This annoys me so much I had to register to comment!

Its all very well making DisplayPort a standard if Apple themeselves supported it!. When I bought my MacBook Pro I explained to the nice man that I had a DisplayPort conected monitor and needed a mini-displayport to displayport cable, but Apple don't sell them! so making displayport a standard is no good if Apple themselves are not going to support it.
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post #60 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPilya View Post

Look... lets just clear the air about all of this:

HDMI is a consumer electronics minded standard. It is designed to hookup media devices for the playback of HD movies. The mostly widely adopted version of the HDMI standard is limited to 1920x1200 resolution. The latest standard will actually go up to 2650x1600. The standard is not capable to move beyond this (at this time). TVs and other media viewing products have no need to push beyond this level so more then likely this standard will stagnate from here (opinion).

DP is a standard for computers. It is designed to provide a great amount of throughput to push high-resolution high grade content. Its introductory support included 2650x1600 and can push much higher resolutions with the ability to grow. There are other important aspects to DP including the daisy chaining of displays (for multi-mon).


Now here is a big key.... the DP standard is royalty free! HDMI requires royalty. This makes DP a free standard where as HDMI not.


In the end... the truth is.... DP is for Computers and HDMI is for consumer electronics. The reading of the standards makes this very obvious and does not try to hide any aspect!

Good post

/thread
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post #61 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:50am
Here are a couple computers that have DP but no HDMI. Instead they offer a DP-to-HDMI adapter as an accessory. Being cheaper smaller and all-around better for computers we’ll eventually see an industry flip as we often do with Apple adopting a standard. Apple wasn’t the first to adopt USB, but they were the first to adopt it across the board.

•

http://www.dell.com/content/products...en&s=bsd&cs=04

• http://www.dell.com/content/products...en&s=dhs&cs=19
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post #62 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelsalt View Post

its also lower resolution

and has a licensing cost, unlike DisplayPort.

It will be HDMI 1.4 versus DP1.2.

HDMI 1.4: http://www.techradar.com/news/televi...to-know-626951 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.4

HDMI is consumer, DP is computer/professional.

I still think Apple should have also included a HDMI port on their computers, it not all then at least a few.
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post #63 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Like said Dells are mostly precision workstations and the the displays are only sold through the business store.

Also, most video chipsets have have displayport capability for a couple generations now.

Mostly this, mostly that. The fact is that Dell has dozens of models that come with DP as standard, or can be upgraded to it. Most of these machines are pretty cheap by Apple standards.

Quote:
Not a firmware issue. Displayport isn't wired to the audio on the motherboard.

As far as I know, it is.
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post #64 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


The only thing that obvious is that despite its advantages, displayport is failing to catch on.

I think I'll just give it the same timeframe as HDMI before I declare a "winner" .... that's fair, don't you think? .... but then, I don't have an "axe to grind", ... do you?

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post #65 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Not to the naked eye at six feet away which is where the majority of large screen displays will be viewed. Even still, the difference is splitting hairs.

So what? DisplayPort is for computers. I don't sit six feet away from my computer. People use computers for reasons other than watching movies on their living room TV.
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post #66 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

We know DP as a technology is being readily adopted as the future display standard for computers, now we need to see if the diminutive mDP as a port interface will also be adopted now that its officially part of the spec.




Teckstudian logic would mean Macs would still have floppy drives over optical drives, serial and parallel ports over USB, and HDMI would have never been adopted because VGA would have been more universal.

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post #67 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

Its available from Apple (in a unique form) and some workstations from HP and Dell and on third party video cards. Its stagnate.

Could you clear up that post?
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post #68 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TallPaul View Post

This annoys me so much I had to register to comment!

Its all very well making DisplayPort a standard if Apple themeselves supported it!. When I bought my MacBook Pro I explained to the nice man that I had a DisplayPort conected monitor and needed a mini-displayport to displayport cable, but Apple don't sell them! so making displayport a standard is no good if Apple themselves are not going to support it.

Lots of these cables are available from third parties. Go buy one.

I don't understand why people invent reasons to be angry at Apple. Do you feel better when you are angry at someone?
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post #69 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:54am
Hrmm, see:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

"*NOTE* AUDIO: This adapter will support audio only if your source device allows audio output through the Mini DisplayPorts interface. If you're not sure, please check with the manufacturer or website to confirm if your device allows audio out through the Mini-DP interface."

If what you're saying is true, then someone could develop a Mac kext to enable the audio...


Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

It seems as though the pinouts carry it. It's up to the software to utilize it.
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post #70 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Well, saying they are all monitors is like saying all cars are automobiles lol. It's obvious that if the TV is capable of displaying a 1920x1080 digital image (or even 1280x720) then it can act as a computer monitor, but are all computer monitors HDTV's? Of course not.

He wasn't wrong in what he said, it just didn't do much for his argument.

When a typical large TV display cuts off inches from all edges of your desktop, I wouldn't classify that as a proper computer display. Even the most rudimentary PC display will always display edge to edge. Most TV's don't offer an option to turn off overscan or even acknowledge it's existence to the consumer. If they do offer adjustments anymore, they require a technical knowledge of the TV's program modes, which the typical consumer won't venture into let alone know exists.

On a PC monitor, one simply uses the supplied controls to adjust as desired.

They are not the same.
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post #71 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

and your point?

I guess you don't always "get the obvious" so here it is again.

"You are becoming more like M$ every day ... never original, just more and more of the same crap. Being irrelevant is one thing, ..... now you're just becoming boring."

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post #72 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Quite a few monitors don't have HDMI.

Can you give a link stating that all monitors have HDMI?

Corrected- MOST.
Walk into J and R and see for yourself.
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post #73 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:56am
For those that are curious, DisplayPort supports audio as part of it's standard. it's optional, but it's there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort
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post #74 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Here are a couple computers that have DP but no HDMI. Instead they offer a DP-to-HDMI adapter as an accessory. Being cheaper smaller and all-around better for computers we’ll eventually see an industry flip as we often do with Apple adopting a standard. Apple wasn’t the first to adopt USB, but they were the first to adopt it across the board.

•

http://www.dell.com/content/products...en&s=bsd&cs=04

• http://www.dell.com/content/products...en&s=dhs&cs=19

What I find interesting is the quotes I see in the brief paragraph describing each of the laptops.

First link: "featuring a premium design and a host of forward-thinking features"
Second link: "With this much bleeding edge technology at your fingertips"

In computers without an HDMI port.
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post #75 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:58am
Audio needs to be changed to mandatory, IMHO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

For those that are curious, DisplayPort supports audio as part of it's standard. it's optional, but it's there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort
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post #76 of 255
11/10/09 at 8:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

Just direct him to the 43 LCD monitors at newegg that don't have DVI or HDMI and be done with him
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...e=&srchInDesc=

MOST. I am changing it for crying out loud.
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post #77 of 255
11/10/09 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by libertyforall View Post

Audio needs to be changed to mandatory, IMHO.

Why require it when many applications don't need it? it would unnecessarily add cost to the implementation without any purpose. For instance, a display that has no audio capabilities wouldn't need it and it would just add to the cost of the display without benefit.
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post #78 of 255
11/10/09 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPilya View Post

Look... lets just clear the air about all of this:

HDMI is a consumer electronics minded standard.

Which is basically a serial version of DVI, a computer connection standard.


Quote:
It is designed to hookup media devices for the playback of HD movies. The mostly widely adopted version of the HDMI standard is limited to 1920x1200 resolution. The latest standard will actually go up to 2650x1600. The standard is not capable to move beyond this (at this time). TVs and other media viewing products have no need to push beyond this level so more then likely this standard will stagnate from here (opinion).

4096×2160 in 1.4

Quote:
Now here is a big key.... the DP standard is royalty free! HDMI requires royalty. This makes DP a free standard where as HDMI not.

4 cents per device and $10,000 annually per company.


Quote:
In the end... the truth is.... DP is for Computers and HDMI is for consumer electronics.

In the end the truth is that its copout. Both DP and HDMI are designed and perfectly capable of doing both.
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post #79 of 255
11/10/09 at 9:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

When a typical large TV display cuts off inches from all edges of your desktop, I wouldn't classify that as a properly computer display. Even the most rudimentary PC display will always display edge to edge. Most TV's don't offer an option to turn off overscan or even acknowledge it's existence to the consumer. If they do offer adjustments anymore, they require a technical knowledge of the TV's program modes, which the typical consumer won't venture into let alone know exists.

On a PC monitor, one simply uses the supplied controls to adjust as desired.

They are not the same.


In all fairness, when HDTv's are used through the computer DVI input, they don't overscan. At least, not the ones I've used.

The point is really that an HDTV is in the living room, and the computer is usually somewhere else. An HDTV is a family, long distance viewing device, and a computer is a single user, close viewing device.

In addition, the color, contrast, and other viewing features of an HDTV is not intended for computer use, but for viewing consumer entertainment standards.

While I MUST see all the pixel detail from my monitor, I don't need to see all of it on my HDTV. That's another difference.
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post #80 of 255
11/10/09 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster View Post

No, just the standard in the devices that more commonly use it. I can guarantee you 110% that I can run higher than 1920x1080 coming from my video card using an hdmi cable. Absolutely has nothing to do with the cable (it's just pulses of 1's and 0's afterall.)

Sorry, am I reading this wrong? It most certainly has everything to do with the cable. The cable design spec of HDMI has bandwidth limitations before you get signal loss. There are only so many pulses you can send before you get signal loss.

DisplayPort design allows for more bandwidth - i.e. more pusles. It's that simple.
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