German Occultism...

I'm sure this is true. And knowing the German proclivity to believe in kitschy-Romantic Sprirituality I'm sure that the figures are real.

I wouldn't pander to the Christian (NoahJ's) reactionary fear in the face of this phenomena. Allthough it is frightening. Rather, I would try to see it for what it is... desperate pathetic idiots that latch onto stupid mythic images of power in order to feel meaning.

German's have a history of taking a particular Spiritual image too seriously. I think one of the motivating images that influenced Naziism was the image of the 'beautiful-corpse of the fallen hero', which had, as a corellate, the image of strength in the face of horror. These are Romantic Kitsch sensibilities that try to make an image out of what they actually cannot -death- The result is that they test themselves against that which they try to sentimentalize by upping the annie. Meaning that they create horror to show everyone and themselves that the stories they make up are real.

For instance, everybody knows that Death-Metal is accompanied by stupid imagery and cheesy spirituality . . .but people who get into it want to hold onto the fake power over life that it pretends to deal with --all the stupid lyrics about hell and powers and etc... this is meaningfull to many so they have to test themselves: "how real is it to you?" and then end up doing things as stupid as the songs they listen too.

Thomas Mann siad, in his book Doctor Faustus, that the Germans were the 'spiritually sensitive' people of Europe... then he showed, metphorically, how this belief was complicit with the twisted and ultimately stupd ideas that propped up Nazism.

"How can my spirituality be false if when it believes in horror it will prove it by doing it".... this is the stupid visious loop that these "vampires" fall into... . . pathetic really .

And, rather than give them the power that they believe they have (satan et al) by reacting as idiotically as they, and seeing the devil where they do, it disempowers them the fastest to see them as feeble minded idiots and characatures. . . not some 'scions of dark powers'. If the Nazis had been shown off as the buffons that they were they would have never gotten off the ground and become the evil that they felt they needed to be.

Ooops, no I didn't mean that your post was reactionary fear. . . i did mean though, that many Christians see this as satan's work . . . which even if you are not a believer as such, is pretty hard not to.

But I would make a distinction between 'satan's work' as in he is an actual non-corporeal entity that is physical motivating these people, and, 'satan's work' as in the idea of 'satan' that takes hold of these people for the false notion of power that it has within it.

Kinda, similar ideas. except that the way the latter idea works is that the concept of 'satan' is in the idea, not, an entity external and sentient that manipulates the people, it is the human constructed idea of spirituality run-amok that posseses these people, the idea of 'satan', not 'satan'. The thought form, not some external being that is seperate from the idea.

And, such an idea also possesses those who see it as a satan/goodness, dichotomy. It is the reaction of those who believe that these people are really 'vampires' that make them really vampires.

At least I think so.. . .perhaps in my darkest nights I fear I may be wrong....

And as to your question about wether it is a trend, I think it has been a growing trend for along time. The accoutrements of 'gothic' style, music etc are really this kind of pathetic attempt at seeming in control of death and the body. It is truly a growing phenomena, and, as it gets older (I used to be a dyed black hair dude in the 80s) it gets more and more cheesy and transparent.

The cheesyness factor of it though, I think, can lead to that dynamic which I outlined above where, they will go farther to prove they mean it. the more obviously the image they are adopting is unrealistic the more desperate they will be to try and make it something that they feel viscerally . . .perhaps by doing stupid things.

Thankfully most people just take it to the level of strange sexual practices that don't hurt anybody but themselves.

The media eats it up because it plays into all of the easily recognizable visual/religious qeues that are circulating around under the surface. In a way, as in all ideas, it really does possess people, and the media disseminate its image and aid in its dispersal . . .but really what they do is reinforce the dichotomy of easy good/evil myth.

And naturally, to a disaffected and ineffectual teenager the bad seems cool.

I do believe that the way the world is is truly stranger than we imagine. . . .truly stranger than we CAN imagine.
(to mimic Joyce here)

I will say though, that I think that much of the 'workings' of the "spiritual' world seem to be subject to descriptions that work best when they demystify spiritual pretentions.

People controlled by these images of dark power are best severed from their interest in them when they understand that much of their motivation towards, and the appeal of these images is not the 'real' power of them, but rather the person's own fear of Death, Life, and also the real fear of Boredom.

No supposed 'power' is more quickly dissipated as 'powerfull', then something that is understood as being pathetic in its very origin.

Some maths: 82.000.000++people in relation to 6000+ freaks (most of them harmless) equals: who cares. Another "good" press job.

Regards, PB

Sorry, but this generalisation strikes me as extraordinarily dumb. The murder case has been all over the media here in Germany, and the reason for that is of course that it was so bizarre. If it had been usual in any way, the echo in the media would've been quite a bit smaller.

Also, quoting Mann's "Doktor Faustus" (which actually has a predecessor, Goethe's "Faust") as proof that Germans are generally into kitschy pseudo-romantic satanism is rather ridiculous, too. That's like saying "Jeffrey Dahmer is not abnormal for American society in general. Just read some of Stephen King's books and watch some movies like 'Nighmare On Elm Street' and 'Natural Born Killers' and you'll see what I mean. They're all into horror stuff and killing people..."
Sheesh....

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: amyklai ]</p>

[quote]The trial has shone an unwelcome spotlight on a sinister, dark side of Germany. The world's third richest economy is also home to an estimated 6,000 hardcore devil worshippers. In the depressed, jobless regions of the former communist east there have been many suicides of occult-obsessed youngsters. <hr></blockquote>

Especially this part strikes me as pure sensationalism. So far, I haven't heard anything about the thousands of devilish satan worshippers that also occasionally commit suicide. The article doesn't provide anything to back up this claim, it looks like some obscure nonsense added to make the article more interesting. Occasionally stirring some irrational anti-German sentiment is not that uncommon in the British (yellow) press. Try reading the Sun whenever Germany has a soccer match against England or whenever a German politician says something in favor of stronger European integration to see what I mean. It can be fun. Just don't take the nonsense too seriously.
A gothic scene does exist over here, but that's something that exists in England and the US as well. So what?

[ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: amyklai ]</p>

hey guys I´m from germany - and guess what? I´m not a kind of Nazi nor Satanic Worshipper.
A mayor aspect of many problems here in Germany is that in the former part of East Germany many young people, that were growing up in the communism system of the DDR had to believe this whole ideological social-communism shit and were educated without religion. After the reunification they had to realize that everything in which they believed was bullshit, causing some of them to radicalize thoughts and actions, which could end up in disrimination or violent actions against foreigners (neo nacizm) or satanic woreship. Sure there are always idiots in every nation/country, but saying "German Occultism" to be a mayor German problem is just wrong! What about Kuklux-Clan in USA? Scientology, etc. defining borders between religions and occultism or religious communitis is a really complicated thing. I´m a christ but there are a lot of people that I met, which can be discribed as radical christ, people from the bible belt in America or Germany (nation doesn´t matter) that I believe to be occultists in "their way"
The Neo-nazis are pretty dumb guys, that are mostlikely unemployed, bad educated and doing the really cheap work, glorifying WW2 without really knowledge what was happening at the time, they are Nazis because they think it´s cool to be a group of people doing prohibited things, beliefing prohibited ideologies. If Anarchism would be prohibited by the German constitution I guess that the majirity of them would be anarchists instead of Neo-Nazis.

I didn't mean to say that only Germans adopt kitsch spirituality, I did mean to say that much of the attitude that gave support to Nazism is a kind of kitschified glorification of 'the fallen hero' and the idea that horror somehow tests and purrifies the 'spirit'.

Nazism was a German phenomena (though there were many supporters in other countries) this you cannot deny. THe 'spiritual' underpinnings of the ideas of Nazism are a mish mash of Romantic spirituality and aestheticized politics = they saw the awakening of the "beautifull people" ("aryans") as a spiritual thing. All of this was made possible because the German people were in some way open to believing it, and they were open to believing in it, in part, because there was a tendency to favor a kind of spirituality that jibed with it.

Look at the tradition of German Romanticism... would I be off base if I called that tradition of Romanticism German... no. ANyway, German Romanticism has many of the elements that I am talking about = the Gesamtkunstwerk (sp?) the "TOTAL art work" Wagner, Caspar David Freidrich etc etc. this is rife with sentimentalizations and these are only the "high" culture manifestations. As mechanical reproduction made possible the mass production of trinkets Kitsch was born.

In fact the word Kitsch is German and generally refered to the kind of sentimental baubles that one would get to decorate the house... little praying hands in glowing light... that kind of thing. (Kitsch is universal though, not just German) The word came to be used particularly in this time (late 19th century) when these mass produced objects hit the market.

I don't think that German's are 'into' this stuff, its just that those that are German and are "into" it, seem to be falling in to this attitude that seems to corellate so well with a kind of collective proclivity that was exhibited in the past. Note that this kind of stuff happens all over the place as well. In Norway there are many people who call themselves "Lucifereans" and satanists, that listen to "pure Norwegian Death-Metal" and who have been responsible for a rash of church burnings over the years . . . these people too are buying into the same kind of kitsch darkness and power imagery . . . it just so happens that many of the people that are doing that stuff also call themselves Nazis.

By the way, I was born in Germany and have a great great Uncle in my ancestry that was burned at the stake for being a witch in Southern Germany.

also, just to let you know, I have read both vollumes of Goethe's Faust (can you say that) as well as its source: the Anonamously authored "UrFaustbuch" as well as Marlow's Doctor Faustus , and, Klaus Mann's Mephisto as well as numerous books on these books etc ... its strange that so many of the Faust versions are German, as well as its anonymous original.... (its been said that soldiers in WW1 carried Goethe's Faust to the trenches with them) What's the allure?

There is also a series out on video called the Occult History of the Nazi party which, though I think overplays the occult and its place in the politics, does show that there really were some freaked out mumbo jumbo spiritual ideas mixed up with, and partially motivating, all the other Nazi mumbo jumbo.

I think Germans are by and large, like everybody else and are great people . . . .

By the way, it was the German historian, Spengler (not to be taken too serious this guy) who said the world was broken down into epochal catagories: the "Arabian Culture" which he characturized as having "the Magian Soul", and the contemporary West which he characterized as the "Faustian" soul, he meant it as such in part because of its 'bargain' with Technology.

[quote] also, just to let you know, I have read both vollumes of Goethe's Faust (can you say that) as well as its source: the Anonamously authored "UrFaustbuch" as well as Marlow's Doctor Faustus , and, Klaus Mann's Mephisto as well as numerous books on these books etc ... its strange that so many of the Faust versions are German, <hr></blockquote>

That's not strange at all. Johannes Faust was German. He died around 1540 in Staufen, which happens to be just 10 miles from where I live. He was one of the Alchimist types of the time and because he was a general weirdo and died suddenly under somewhat strange circumstances, some people thought the devil had come to get him.
A sort of legend was born and other, older wizard legends which originally had nothing to do with Faust were added to the Faust legend, so it became bigger. It still was rather local, but by 1587, the first book appeared in Frankfurt. (You probably wanted to refer to this book as 'Urfaust'; keep in mind that 'Urfaust' is what people call the original version (~1775) of Goethe's) when

So far, so normal. You have a local legend, and somebody writes a book about it. Also, don't forget that books were very expensive at the time and few people could read then.
Then happened what imho is the most unexpected twist in the history of the Faust story : Christopher Marlowe, writes his drama "Doctor Faustus" and publishes it in 1604. English traveling comediants perform the play in Germany (evidence for that goes back as far as 1608) and spread the legend that way - you need to keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of people couldn't read.
Who would've thought that the most important pre-Shakespearian English playwright and English actors would be the ones to popularize this German legend?
That should be the surprising thing, not the fact that German writers picked up some old German legend and turned it into a play.
In the case of Goethe and Th. Mann, the devil is just an allegory for the evil, dammit. Klaus Mann's "Mephisto" had little to do with the devil at all. He just wanted to take revenge on Gustav Gründgens (his former brother-in-law) who he felt had collaborated with the Nazis to continue his career and thus 'struck a deal with the devil'. None of these books are able to foster Satanism or okkultism in any way imho.

[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: amyklai ]</p>

[quote] Nazism was a German phenomena (though there were many supporters in other countries) this you cannot deny. THe 'spiritual' underpinnings of the ideas of Nazism are a mish mash of Romantic spirituality and aestheticized politics = they saw the awakening of the "beautifull people" ("aryans") as a spiritual thing. All of this was made possible because the German people were in some way open to believing it, and they were open to believing in it, in part, because there was a tendency to favor a kind of spirituality that jibed with it. <hr></blockquote>

LIsten, Nazi mythology was hardly a reason why the Nazis were elected - if you can even say 'elected', considering they didn't have more than ~37% of the votes in any free election.
I would rather say that their promise to reduce unemployment and restore national pride after WWI and the treaty of Versailles together with the utter debacle that the Weimar republic was with its countless changes of government and the general economic disaster that had undermined the belief in a democratic system was the reason.
That would also help explain the rise of the communists and the downfall of the democratic parties at the same time.

[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: amyklai ]</p>

Another thing I want to add : Caspar David Friedrich, Wagner, Thomas Mann and J.W. Goethe are hardly the people that inspire Gothics or satanists.
I would rather look for more modern influences like black metal and stuff like that. And I bet for every modern, popular German band / author / movie that could be 'satanist-inspiring' you could find 5 or more American counterparts.
I'm not saying that America is evil or anything, but saying that Germany has more to offer in that department seems pretty strange to me.

[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>Whatever your thoughts on this, those poeple were totally off the wall and bizarre. Drinking peoples blood from their necks (and the people that allowed this are also bizzarre), luring their friend to their flat, htting him in the head with a hammer, stabbing him 40 or mor times and then putting out cigarrettes in his back and cutting a pentagram in his front, drinking his blood from a bowl and then afterwards having sex in a coffin.... As amyklai stated, this is getting lots of press because it is so bizarre. As for her other post, that is what i waanted to know, people over there who live in Germany. Have they seen this trend at all. She/He has not. (I think amyklai is a she). Disturbing. There was another article on this as well.

<a href="http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/01/18/wvamp18.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/18/ixworld.html" target="_blank">http://www.port al.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/01/18/wvamp18.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/01/18/ixworld.html</a>

I would not like to meet that lady in the picture in a dark alley... *Shudder*</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don´t want to be a classmate to the Littleton guys, too!
Again:
This bizzare action could have happend in every country. Good to know that those sick guys will never come out of jail, though!

amyklai , you forgot to mention Comedia d'ell arte" and puppet theatre as a way of disseminating the Faust myth. But, as for the certainty of its origins....hm? there are some that believe that Simon Magus, the Gnostic, may have been the source of the myth, for example, when he travelled in Latinate areas he was called faustus (Hans Jonus), he also had a companion that some say he called Helen.

[quote]LIsten, Nazi mythology was hardly a reason why the Nazis were elected - if you can even say 'elected', considering they didn't have more than ~37% of the votes in any free election.
I would rather say that their promise to reduce unemployment and restore national pride after WWI and the treaty of Versailles together with the utter debacle that the Weimar republic was with its countless changes of government and the general economic disaster that had undermined the belief in a democratic system was the reason.
That would also help explain the rise of the communists and the downfall of the democratic parties at the same time. <hr></blockquote>

Of course these were reasons, but there was also a very strong appeal to a romantic sensibility that wanted a kind of renewal, which was much needed because of the Versaille treaty et al, but a renewal that looked back to a fictitious atavistic 'Germania'. This was in the air, and, in many books and in much of the kitsch art that later made the status of State art.

[quote] Caspar David Friedrich, Wagner, Thomas Mann and J.W. Goethe are hardly the people that inspire Gothics or satanists. <hr></blockquote>

I think that if you look at the successive phases of art history you can plot a direct line leading from Romanticism through to the Decadence artists of the fin de siecle. the decadence artists at that time were often also overt dablers in what was called 'diabolism'. (THis trajectory, for the most part is in the French lineage.) However, there is a possible correlation in a kind of exhaustion that casts about for grandiose answers that occured in fin de seicle decadence, that could be seen as the same line of passage from German Romanticism to either, German Expressionism, or, the not unrelated appeal of state myths and aryan dreams.

Romanticism seems to lead to this kind of spiritual exhaustion, or is the beginning of the symptoms of such an exhaustion, and, in Germany, Romanticism was very pervasive and influential. I, for one believe that a predominance of certain artistic expressions says something about the condition of a peoples' psyche - art is an expression of the collective psyche. What I'm saying is that the depth of German Romanticism revealed a depths of yearning in the German soul, unfortunately that yearning became subject to opposite poles when it became exhausted, as it seems that Romanticism is apt to do. Leaving Germany open to laceratingly radical artistic experimentation on one hand (seen as 'decadence' by the Nazis) and the state art of the late thirties and mid forties.


And yes, of course this can, and does happen everywhere.

When I originaly mentioned to NoahJ that I saw a trend, it was not in Germany only that I was talking about. But I do want to stress that in most cases it really is just a trend, and by that I mean trendy, and for the most part harmless.

Whoa. Scary. "She wore sunglasses in court after the judge refused her request to dim the lights."

Just mixed up people...sick people. Got plenty of these in the states too.