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AT&T faces setback in legal battle over Verizon ads

post #1 of 85
Thread Starter 
A federal judge Wednesday denied AT&T's request to pull Verizon's critical commercials from the air, despite the fact that they might be "sneaky" and most TV watchers are "semi-catatonic." [Updated with new response ad by AT&T]

The judge ruled Wednesday that while the ads may be "sneaky," they are not misleading, and do not justify any action to take them off the air. The judge did state however, that most TV watchers are "semi-catatonic" and therefore can easily misinterpret information presented.

A follow-up hearing date was set for Dec. 16, giving lawyers a second chance to present their case for an injunction. Verizon has claimed that AT&T's suit is without merit

In a new ad comparing the 3G networks of AT&T and Verizon, AT&T claims that it offers a better "3G experience" when compared to Verizon. The ad, which features actor Luke Wilson, points viewers to a website, TruthAbout3G.com that contains the tag-line "When you compare, there's no comparison. AT&T. A better 3G experience."

Both the ad and website tout the speed and features of AT&T's network, with the website claiming that AT&T's 3G network covers 230 million people across the nation. The TV ad makes no mention of 3G coverage area or signal quality.



Verizon's series of ads compare 3G coverage maps of the two companies, with Verizon's maps covering more of the United States than AT&T. The accuracy of the maps are not what is in question, AT&T concedes that they do show the overall 3G coverage areas of both networks. AT&T called the ads in question "false and misleading" because they confuse customers into believing that AT&T has no coverage in the areas highlighted as being devoid of 3G coverage.

AT&T had previously contacted Verizon on Oct. 7, requesting that the ads be withdrawn or modified. Verizon responded by dropping the phrase "out of touch" from the ads and added the words "Voice & data services are available outside 3G coverage areas."

In a response to the initial suit, Verizon stated, "AT&T did not file this lawsuit because Verizon's 'There's A Map For That' advertisements are untrue; AT&T sued because Verizon's ads are true and the truth hurts."

AT&T announced Tuesday that it has plans to upgrade its 3G nationwide network by 2011, a total of 1,900 cell sites are slated to be added by the end of 2009.
post #2 of 85
As I posted in the iPhone forum, Suck it AT&T! Nobody is falling for your bull****. Beef up your 3G network and stop whining so much.

post #3 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

As I posted in the iPhone forum, Suck it AT&T! Nobody is falling for your bull****. Beef up your 3G network and stop whining so much.


HAHAHAHAH...

After having just left them for an iPhone after nearly 10 years of service, you can be sure I hate Verizon and their anti-customer practices, but boy does AT&T need to "nut up" on this one. They got caught with their pants down and I say more power to them to put AT&T in their place and get them to actually improve their crappy network.

On a related note, I actually compiled my own nationwide AT&T 3G map from all the little regional ones they show you and made a graphical comparison to Verizons and posted it on this forum a while back.. I'm surprised it took Verizon this long to do so. I wonder if they saw my map?? lol
post #4 of 85
"confuse customers into believing that AT&T has no coverage in the areas highlighted as being devoid of 3G coverage."

This campaign by Verizon does tell the truth. Most people it seems do not do their homework on coverage, they just see the iPhone and they want it now, no matter how bad the service is.

You have two choices between these two companies:
Verizon- little choice, best network
AT&T- lots of apps and customization on iPhone, worse network

Too bad Verizon has to cripple their phones and provide great service, it would be a lot easier if there were two positives to speak of with one of these companies.
post #5 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by macuser83 View Post


Too bad Verizon has to cripple their phones and provide great service, it would be a lot easier if there were two positives to speak of with one of these companies.

To be fair, the new Android phones (the Droid twins) aren't crippled. Hopefully, verizon keeps it that way.
post #6 of 85
Do people still believe VZW cripples phones (they used to, but my how things change when you start losing customers...)?

Oh and after being thoroughly embarrassed by VZW, they put out a poor counterad with an overweight Luke Wilson, why dont you spend your money upgrading your pathetic ass network AT&T instead of spending it on actors?

Oh and last time i checked, my friend was surfing the web while talking on his droid AT&T, maybe you should beg Apple to give you their advertisement guy?
post #7 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterspan View Post

HAHAHAHAH...

After having just left them for an iPhone after nearly 10 years of service, you can be sure I hate Verizon and their anti-customer practices, but boy does AT&T need to "nut up" on this one. They got caught with their pants down and I say more power to them to put AT&T in their place and get them to actually improve their crappy network.

On a related note, I actually compiled my own nationwide AT&T 3G map from all the little regional ones they show you and made a graphical comparison to Verizons and posted it on this forum a while back.. I'm surprised it took Verizon this long to do so. I wonder if they saw my map?? lol

Word!
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post #8 of 85
I'd love to be able to get a smartphone without having to pay the data plan. I live on a college campus where I have wifi everywhere 24/7, I have zero interest in paying for a data plan I don't intend to use. I can live without internet EVERYWHERE.
post #9 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

To be fair, the new Android phones (the Droid twins) aren't crippled. Hopefully, verizon keeps it that way.

PDANet still works over here. How about in Apple land?
post #10 of 85
I was with vzw for several years and was just ok with their service but not their customer service and their poor choice of crapy, crippled phones. I jumped on the iphone/att bandwagon when the original came out and havent looked back. I love my phone and love att and their network. I live in the dc suburbs and have NO problems with my att coverage. I have had about 2 dropped calls this year and always have plenty of superfast 3g coverage. In fact i have coverage in places i had NO coverage with vzw. The droid is ok but no iphone, the storm 2 is no iphone, in fact there is no phone better than the iphone and as far as im concerned att works for me where and when i need it. All the attention they are getting will just make them get even better. Hopefully the service will improve in those trouble spots but for now Att & Iphone=Happiness. Couldnt say that when i was with vzw
post #11 of 85
No matter who the litigants are, a ruling that accurate facts are unacceptable because people aren't smart enough to understand them would have been a horrible precedent to set.

AT&T has proven time and again that they don't think like businessmen but like government bureaucrats who think they should be able to decree what reality is. "Out of touch" may not describe their network but it does describe their executive suite.
post #12 of 85
Although verizon may indeed have a map that shows coverage over a wider area, my experience using them provided me with horrible service - compared directly to a friend standing next to me using att.

I do believe that Verizon is taking advantage of how stupid we consumers are - regardless of whether they say the map is comparing 3G coverage only - we consumers (for the most part, and this generalization is appropriate in this case) see the lack of coverage on ATT's map as being just that - lack of coverage. The white areas on the map aren't viewed as non-3g areas, but rather as no service areas.

I work in sales and marketing of consumer products and they've done a brilliant job showing we consumers a "true" apples to apples comparison that really just takes advantage of how stupid we are.

As far as the iPhone is concerned, I like the phone and its features and how it works perfectly with my MBP and the apps it offers. What I really don't care is what network it runs on. I'm not beholden to ATT, Verizon, Sprint, etc and as far as 3G, it is going to become a moot point very quickly as the move to 4G speeds up. If Apple really wants to keep leading, it needs to force the "next" technology on the carriers and partner with whoever is willing to move things forward.

In a separate note, I'm getting to the point where I would like to find a carrier that is willing to go back to 1G, spotty service. This push to be continuously connected and available makes it difficult to live a normal life. I remember traveling in the day when I couldn't connect to the office unless I could find a pay phone or get to the hotel at the end of the day. You could actually have down time in the day. Now the expectation is to reply to emails and texts and calls immediately or face the scrutiny of the powers that be.
post #13 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by macuser83 View Post

Most people it seems do not do their homework on coverage, they just see the iPhone and they want it now

However, it makes you wonder if Steve Jobs did his homework on AT&T's coverage and their capability. I mean, why create a product that people just see and they want it now and have it tarnished because of the carrier you partnered with. I wonder where the iPhone would be today if it were on Verizon? MMS sooner? Tethering by now? Larger US iPhone user base?

Instead, Jobs chose to partner up with AT&T despite the rancor coming from the Apple faithful about hooking up with Cingular/AT&T.

And the Apple faithful, once again, had to bend over and take it and suckle up to the Apple tit for it's nutritional daily dose of Apple goodness!

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post #14 of 85
Remember the old Laugh-In skit?

We're the phone company. We don't care, we don't have to...
post #15 of 85
Why don't you ask your friend to refresh the page or navigate to a new one and then see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ifail View Post

Oh and last time i checked, my friend was surfing the web while talking on his droid...
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post #16 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Why don't you ask your friend to refresh the page or navigate to a new one and then see what happens.

Or go off WiFi onto EVDO.
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post #17 of 85
post #18 of 85
ATT should just run their own ads instead of whine. Sheesh. ATT 3G geographic coverage may be smaller, but it still reaches over 90% of people. Verizon is good if you travel in the sticks.
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post #19 of 85
"AT&T announced Tuesday that it has plans to upgrade its 3G nationwide network by 2011, a total of 1,900 cell sites are slated to be added by the end of 2009."

Nowhere near enough to come even close to Verizon's 3G map, they need 10x that if they're really serious about catching up... Pathetic.
post #20 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

New AT&T ad.

Is that the BEST they can do? That was so incredibly weak. And Luke Wilson? Hell, his uglier, crooked nose brother gets more roles and pu**y than him
post #21 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdag View Post

Nowhere near enough to come even close to Verizon's 3G map, they need 10x that if they're really serious about catching up... Pathetic.

I hope they arent focused on catching up to Verizons map. It makes no sense to build into low populated areas with 3G when their highly populated areas are taking on more and more data heavy devices per tower. This is a seemingly exponential problem that needs to be addressed with more towers, more bandwidth per tower, better and faster HW and a switch to 850MHz spectrum.
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post #22 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Is that the BEST they can do?

Well, they can't say that Verizon's ads are false since that would be lying, so yes, it's the best they can do...
post #23 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Is that the BEST they can do? That was so incredibly weak. And Luke Wilson? Hell, his uglier, crooked nose brother gets more roles and pu**y than him

Well, it's about getting their message out and unlike Verizon they didn't have enough time. This is just the beginning.
post #24 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Is that the BEST they can do? That was so incredibly weak. And Luke Wilson? Hell, his uglier, crooked nose brother gets more roles and pu**y than him

Having Luke Wilson there putting up magnets convoluted and trivialized the factual superiority that AT&Ts network architecture has over Verizons network. I cant imagine anyone walking away from that commercial with a clear understanding of the benefits of AT&T over Verizon.
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post #25 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifail View Post

Do people still believe VZW cripples phones (they used to, but my how things change when you start losing customers...)?

Maybe they don't do that any more, but they are up to the same sleaze, even if their tricks are different:

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/...ou-charge-now/

Not that I'm enthused with AT&T. The way I see it, different telecom & datacom choices are like buying manure. You can choose the animal that dropped it, but it's still a bag of sh!t.
post #26 of 85
If you look at at&t's 3G coverage map in the Verizon ads, you'll notice there is no 3G in the Traverse City, MI area (Northwest of the lower peninsula). There is also only a small amount of 3G in the south central area of Michigan. In fact, there is 3G almost all the way along the I-94 corridor.

I have to wonder if there are other areas of the country that Verizon is not showing accurately. I think they are using an outdated map.
post #27 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by IPhoneluv View Post

I was with vzw for several years and was just ok with their service but not their customer service and their poor choice of crapy, crippled phones. I jumped on the iphone/att bandwagon when the original came out and havent looked back. I love my phone and love att and their network. I live in the dc suburbs and have NO problems with my att coverage. I have had about 2 dropped calls this year and always have plenty of superfast 3g coverage. In fact i have coverage in places i had NO coverage with vzw. The droid is ok but no iphone, the storm 2 is no iphone, in fact there is no phone better than the iphone and as far as im concerned att works for me where and when i need it. All the attention they are getting will just make them get even better. Hopefully the service will improve in those trouble spots but for now Att & Iphone=Happiness. Couldnt say that when i was with vzw

Try suburban Philly. It blows here. VZW was far better. Lately speeds seem to be better though. Late summer was an absolute nightmare on AT&T. My phone basically didn't work at all for 2 days while they "upgraded" their network.
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post #28 of 85
Sorry, but my favorite part of this was the (unnamed) federal judge stating that most television viewers were "semi catatonic"

Living in a television free home, my family realized that this was the truth that most Americans are too "catatonic" to even consider.

Do yourself an intellectual favor. Pull the cable out of the back of your television and read. Suddenly you will understand the triviality of the "news", and refocus your priorities.
post #29 of 85
When the Judge said "semi-catonic", did he actually mean Windows users?

As for AT&T's "setbacks", who cares.

Aas long as the iPhone is exclusive to AT&T, Verizon can only dream . . .
post #30 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

However, it makes you wonder if Steve Jobs did his homework on AT&T's coverage and their capability. I mean, why create a product that people just see and they want it now and have it tarnished because of the carrier you partnered with. I wonder where the iPhone would be today if it were on Verizon? MMS sooner? Tethering by now? Larger US iPhone user base?

Instead, Jobs chose to partner up with AT&T despite the rancor coming from the Apple faithful about hooking up with Cingular/AT&T.

And the Apple faithful, once again, had to bend over and take it and suckle up to the Apple tit for it's nutritional daily dose of Apple goodness!


Unrequited demand. It's a brilliant way of doing things. The creation of buildup, anticipation, to a *possible* move to more carriers.

Exclusivity creates desirability, and in the iPhone's case, creates two years' worth of carriers jockeying for position in order to get their hands on the elusive Holy Grail of smartphones. It keeps consumers who can't have it with the hint, the faintest hope of it coming to other carriers. Keeps them interested. It's the same way with women. Give the man just enough to keep him asking for more - never give too much, too fast. Keep him wanting.

So the iPhone never really becomes "old news." It remains something in demand and special. Its rarity feeds into its mystique. It's as big and new and fresh now as it was on release day.

Further, limiting it to just one carrier for the time being allows Apple to test its powers over the typical carrier - how far it can push, and to what degree Apple is beholden to their policies. It also shows Apple just how desirable the iPhone is. How many people can they get to switch carriers just for the iPhone? It's a great way of guaging the pulse of the market with respect to your product's desirabilty. It also creates the impression that other carriers can "make a name" for themselves with the iPhone. Exclusivity = desirability.

It also demonstrates that Apple doesn't "need" other carriers . . . the carriers need Apple. It's Apple saying "we don't need you - we're already shaking up the industry and setting records with only AT&T. But we might *let* you have the iPhone, because it is a privilege."

Masterful.

One thing to keep in mind: Apple always has a powerful, well-thought out strategy behind everything they do. They are fully aware of the consequences of limiting it to just one carrier. But they are also aware of the benefits.

And the reason behind Verizon's recent ad canpaign?

iPhone.
post #31 of 85
"Which is sleazier, AT&T or Verizon?"

This is a debate only a parasitologist could love.
post #32 of 85
Reading all the negativity, I feel like I am an exception. I for one am very happy with AT&T's service. Not only do I rarely have a dropped call, the management at the local AT&T store in town bends over backwards to keep me happy (it probably didn't hurt that I was the first in line on June 29, 2007 and coming to them from T-Mobile).

One thing the ad (or anybody else, for that matter) doesn't mention: when I travel overseas I don't have to change phones or even my sim-card. GSM, what AT&T and the iPone use, is a worldwide standard, which cannot be said about Verizon. One very important issue for me!
post #33 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

When the Judge said "semi-catonic", did he actually mean Windows users?

Pathetic cheap shot that has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

Quote:
As for AT&T's "setbacks", who cares.

Aas long as the iPhone is exclusive to AT&T, Verizon can only dream . . .

Nobody is talking about iPhone exclusivity. Again, bringing up something that has no bearing on the topic of discussion. We're talking about AT&T's network quality and their lack of 3G coverage. Please don't try to derail the discussion with these pathetic side stories.

As for you long Apple lovefest a few posts up, again, you sound more like an investor stroking his Apple stock then someone that actually cares about AT&T building up its network infrastructure to squash the reason why Verizon is attacking them in the first place.
post #34 of 85
.. ... ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazda 3s View Post

pathetic cheap shot that has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

it's fun, and it's appleinsider, not winsupersite. Deal with it.

nobody is talking about iphone exclusivity.

except that you were.

again, bringing up something that has no bearing on the topic of discussion. We're talking about at&t's network quality and their lack of 3g coverage. Please don't try to derail the discussion with these pathetic side stories.

this is all about the iphone. Verizon ramped up their ads all of a sudden. They've got iphone fever and are thoroughly frustrated. At&t's response is just a by-product of the carrier wars sparked by the iphone.

as for you long apple lovefest a few posts up, again, you sound more like an investor stroking his apple stock then someone that actually cares about at&t building up its network infrastructure to squash the reason why verizon is attacking them in the first place.

at&t is already building up its network structure. Apparently, at&t's network structure has had less of an impact on the deicison-making of iphone users as we might think. It's interesting to note that people will choose to deal with at&t just to get an iphone. Apple has quite a device.

Hell, i might even have apple stock, too!


post #35 of 85
Here in the Chicago area, coverage is great. My 3G service is better and faster than Verizon's. I realize that there are some users in SF and NY who are experiencing growth pains (wireless data usage is up 5000% over the past 3 years thanks to the iPhone). I don't think that any carrier would have handled that much stress. At least AT&T has a growth plan with their 3G Network (3.2Mb now, then 7Mb then 14MB). Verizon is stuck with their slow CDMA until they migrate to 4G (and this is years away before they can roll this out to a significant footprint).

There is ONE MAJOR difference between Verizon's service and AT&T's: AT&T allows simultaneous Data and Voice. I use this new iPhone App called CISCO WEBEX. This is a great tool for any remote worker. It allows you to dial into a conference call and view a presentation LIVE over the internet. This type of application is a must for any serious business customer AND IS NOT POSSIBLE on the Verizon network.
post #36 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbryanh View Post

"Which is sleazier, AT&T or Verizon?"

This is a debate only a parasitologist could love.

What about Sprint? Is Sprint too small to matter?

I hate both companies for being so greedy.

Which company price gouges their customers more:

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/...ou-charge-now/
post #37 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by noexpectations View Post

Here in the Chicago area, coverage is great. My 3G service is better and faster than Verizon's. I realize that there are some users in SF and NY who are experiencing growth pains (wireless data usage is up 5000% over the past 3 years thanks to the iPhone). I don't think that any carrier would have handled that much stress. At least AT&T has a growth plan with their 3G Network (3.2Mb now, then 7Mb then 14MB). Verizon is stuck with their slow CDMA until they migrate to 4G (and this is years away before they can roll this out to a significant footprint).

There is ONE MAJOR difference between Verizon's service and AT&T's: AT&T allows simultaneous Data and Voice. I use this new iPhone App called CISCO WEBEX. This is a great tool for any remote worker. It allows you to dial into a conference call and view a presentation LIVE over the internet. This type of application is a must for any serious business customer AND IS NOT POSSIBLE on the Verizon network.

I understand everything you're saying. I have an iPhone 3GS and for the most part, the service is fine here in the Raleigh, NC area. I can get 3G just about wherever I travel which is great.

However, I'm not so much in a bubble to believe that my experiences mirror all of the other iPhone 3GS owners out there. The map speaks for itself -- AT&T just doesn't have the 3G coverage or capacity to offer quality service to a lot of people.

As for the simultaneous data/talking, I have a question. I tend to talk and use the internet/email with speakerphone every once in a while, but it almost always is when I'm on a WiFi network (like when I'm at home).

So if you're within WiFi range and a call comes in, couldn't a Verizon phone still do talk/data?
post #38 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

.. ... ..

So your opinion seems to be that, who gives a **** about call quality or 3G coverage (which severely lags Verizon) since people are still buying iPhones anyway?

I'm sorry if that's not what you're saying, because from all of your posts on the subject matter in this thread and others, this seems to be the case. It's almost as if you don't really care so much about AT&T's problems so long as Apple is doing great financially and with sales.

Again, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.
post #39 of 85
Quote:
However, it makes you wonder if Steve Jobs did his homework on AT&T's coverage and their capability. I mean, why create a product that people just see and they want it now and have it tarnished because of the carrier you partnered with. I wonder where the iPhone would be today if it were on Verizon? MMS sooner? Tethering by now? Larger US iPhone user base?

Why do you think the first iphone wasn't 3G?
post #40 of 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post

Pathetic cheap shot that has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

Nobody is talking about iPhone exclusivity. Again, bringing up something that has no bearing on the topic of discussion. We're talking about AT&T's network quality and their lack of 3G coverage. Please don't try to derail the discussion with these pathetic side stories.

As for you long Apple lovefest a few posts up, again, you sound more like an investor stroking his Apple stock then someone that actually cares about AT&T building up its network infrastructure to squash the reason why Verizon is attacking them in the first place.


Who died and made you moderator of this discussion?

Did someone forget to lay out the rules so we can all make sure to please the child and only talk about what he wants to talk about.
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