Originally Posted by nagromme
Its one thing to refuse service because excessive tar actually caused the failure (Ive seen some disgusting stained walls in smokers homes). Maybe that can happen, hard as it is to believe.
Its another to say that no safety gear exists which allows workers to repair the machine safely. I feel certain that a properly-equipped repair tech could work on tobacco-slimed hardware for many years without taking in any of the toxins.
I suppose Apple could say that supplying such gear (and the extra time involved) makes the repair too expensive to cover...
One of many good points being overlooked in the anti-smoker tirades in this thread. The bottom line is simply that there are means to protect workers to OSHA safety regulations, and there are jobs that require exposure (plumbers to sewerage was a good analogy).
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
(long rant - deleted)
Smoking will be illegal in public in your lifetime probably. Get used to it.
No disagreement - - but as of 2009, it still is both legal as well as conducted by a not-insignificant portion of society. As such, some amount of its presence is within the expected norms of Society - - in other words, within "Normal Wear & Tear" of Warranty langage. Of course, there is the issue still of "Slippery Slope" - - how much is normal versus excessive - - but what this is observing is that the accept/reject limit cannot be set at zero.
Originally Posted by charlituna
One person was allegedly told that the damage was caused by tar buildup from smoking around the machine.
With the keyword here being ALLEGEDLY. I've not noticed any conspicuous mention of the Apple Service ID#, nor any photographs (proof evidence) provided supposedly by Apple. As such, I have my personal doubts as to the legitimacy of the entire claim.
Originally Posted by Hudson1
A couple of points:
1) No computer coming in for repair, especially after any length of time, is clean and pristine inside. If being clean is a prerequisite for warranty service, most computers would be denied coverage.
Exactly. Accumulation of some amount of dust/misc is part of normal utilization and is what constitutes "Normal Wear and Tear" that is expected to be accomodated within Warranty Language.
3) Nicotine probably has a very low precipitation rate on surfaces. The gunk in the computer is much more likely tar.
True, but smokers aren't an exctinct species, so their contributions also have to be considered to be part of the default environment that a product will need to be expected to routinely operate in. Ditto for contamination from Pet Dander, Los Angeles Smog, Midwestern Dust Storms, Florida Salt Air, etc.
If a hypothetical computer is for some reason quite highly vulnerable to these sorts of normal environmental hazards bringing it to an overheating halt, then it is a product design flaw ... a failure in having a HEPA-esque filter to be maintained. Afterall, our automobiles have air filters ... and so have there also been air filters on computer equipment - they're just not typically found on our cheap consumer level PCs.
Originally Posted by Abster2core
As per Apple's standard hardware Warrantee decrees, i.e., "This warranty does not apply: (a) to damage caused by use with non-Apple products; (b) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, flood, fire, earthquake or other external causes,
the presence of a sufficient substance to cause the computer to malfunction, is sufficient to negate the service.
Although having a machine come in for service with such visual evidence to conclude that the primary cause of failure is due to using it in a 'smoking' environment of any degree, proclaiming that "nicotine is on OSHA's list of hazardous substances and Apple would not require an employee to repair anything deemed hazardous to their health." may in part not be totally accurate.
This is dilemma of the 'slippery slope', namely of how much of a "smoke environment" can be considered as constituting "Normal Wear and Tear" (within Society Norms) that can reasonably be expected to be accomodated within Warranty Language.
Certainly, the employees refusal to repair the computer under warranty is perfectly within their rights and Apple's position to protect their employees where it might be deemed a health hazard to any extent is equally valid.
Yes, but not quite: if the health hazard didn't void the Warranty, then the Warranty that was sold to the consumer still must be honored, lest Apple be in breach of contract.
And the business solution here is brutally simple: if the OSHA-required protection levels for the employee are more expensive than the computer, then the Warranty obligation can be fulfilled by hardware replacement instead of hardware repair. Alleged OSHA Problem...Solved!And FWIW, I don't ever recall AppleCare having an escape clause of "not cost effective to repair" that permits them to completely walk away from the contract. If such language does exist, then I'd never pay for AppleCare.
Keep in mind that some non-smokers can enter a locked 'smoking' room and be unaffected at all. Whereas, others become totally repulsed at even the thought of touching the door nob.
And this is what makes the 'Slippery Slope' problems more acute, particulary as the percentage of our Society that smokes becomes smaller: the current generation simply has no experience with what the levels of smoking used to be like ~30 years ago to really appreciate how relatively begnine they are today. Just consider how few people you see today with the condition of hard yellow fingertips due to the combination of nicotine, tar, and cellular death...
Originally Posted by lunga
Must be a slow news day.
Perhaps. Until I see Service ID#s and photos of the alledgedly offending hardware, I'm cynically suspicious that this might also be contrived
Originally Posted by @homenow
If the damage is caused by smoke buildup then I agree with you, but just because there is a problem with the computer and there is smoke buildup in the system does not necessarily mean that the part that has gone bad did so due to smoke buildup. Even if there is a large amount of smoke buildup in the computer there could be a part that fails due to a manufacturing defect after a year or two of use.
An excellent point: the presence of an accumulation in of itself is not proof of causality.
Originally Posted by solipsism
Quite right, but lack of maintenance, misuse and abuse of a machine trumps most manufacturers defects because its simply too hard to determine the cause if a machine is in such a state and no warranties for CE do not cover regular cleanings as part of the agreement, which would be required first and foremost before Apple could service most potential defects.
Understood, but there's also a certain marketplace expectation that influences upon whome the Burden of Proof resides. FWIW, this is why I'm suspicious of this report coming out without it being accompanied by photographic evidence as the basis of Apple's denial.
These idiots should have cleaned out their own machine before sending it in, but...
Unfortunately, this suggestion can clearly be a double-edged sword, since sometimes the action of opening the case will void a Warranty.
Originally Posted by LouisTheXIV
I think people are being willfully obtuse and blinded by their hatred of smokers. This is where the incessant anti-smoking campaign have taken us--towards absolute hatred and license to screw people.
Do you people not see where this can lead? No one is arguing that if smoke has actually DAMAGED your computer, that counts like any other reason to void a warranty from personal damage. What is however obvious from this "decree" is that if a computer merely "smells" of smoke that Apple deems it a "health hazard" which is beyond ridiculous. This opens the door for Apple to void warranties easily and without proof of anything. A computer may not be damaged at all by smoke residue but if it even has a wiff of left over smoke then they will call that a biohazard and refuse to service your computer.
An excellent point. Personally, if a company tried to pull this sort of BS on me, I'd sue them for a defective product: if its that damn fragile, then where's its integrated HEPA air filter?
Originally Posted by Elkyss
I own a mac and live in Oklahoma. Recently the burner stopped working. We have AppleCare so we took it in 2 days ago for repair. We just recieved a call today stating we needed to come get it because they are refusing to work on it due to health hazards from second hand smoke due to OSHA violations.
Sorry, but until I see an Apple Service Tracking ID#, I'm obligated to be cynical...
Originally Posted by alandail
how is Apple going to lose, the warranty is for manufacturing defects and expressly excludes issues due to abuse and neglect.
But as I said earlier, smoking still is both legal as well as conducted by a not-insignificant portion of society. As such, some amount of its presence is within the expected norms of Society - - in other words, within "Normal Wear & Tear" of Warranty langage.
Of course, there is the issue still of "Slippery Slope" - - how much accumulation is deemed normal versus excessive - - but the accept/reject limit simply cannot be set at zero.
And it doesn't matter if we're talking about smoke residue, lint, pet dander, LA Smog, or Miami salt air accumulations...there are all normal & routine environmental hazards for which the obligation is for the product design to be able to accomodate...afterall, no one's consumer laptop comes with a warning of "USE ONLY IN A CLASS 100 CLEAN ROOM".