or Connect
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Smoking may void Applecare warranty
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Smoking may void Applecare warranty - Page 8

post #281 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail View Post

My father, along with quite a few people he worked with, died because his employer thought it okay to knowingly let them work with known hazardous materials - asbestos.

Sorry your father passed away from exposure to asbestos.

Quote:
How can you honestly be this upset with a company who is taking a stand to protect their workers from a known health hazard? Are the warranty repair workers supposed to die to fix computers that were not faulty in the first place, but were rather damaged by neglect of their owners? Owners who knowingly put carcinogens in their body and in their air?

That would have been nice to have back in 1984! With the Macs first breakout or even 1976 when Apple was founded, because according to the government that mandated the warning label regarding the health hazards of smoking, starting back in 1966! Seems kind of disingenuous now for Apple to show concern!

Quote:
Also a company who's CEO nearly died from cancer - you want him to force his workers to work with known carcinogens?

Maybe it was some other lifestyle choice of his like being a Vegan or genetically "in his DNA" so to speak. There are documented smokers that have died a ripe of age but not from lung cancer and some non-smokers that have died at an early age and never smoked a day in their life - Dana Reeve comes to mind.

Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

Reply

Ten years ago, we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash.  Today we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.

Reply
post #282 of 332
Two things:

1st-There is much more to this "story" than is being revealed. That much should be obvious.

2nd-Regarding this whole smoking deal, ignore all the health aspects and political/media BS associated with it. The fact is humans are the only animals on this earth that VOLUNTARILY put smoke in their bodies. Even a monkey has to be trained to do that.

Just a little food for thought, if it helps anyone.
post #283 of 332
I'm not sure that most posters actually read the article.

Apple never said Nicotine causes cancer, they said the computer was "beyond economical repair due to tar from cigarette smoke".

They also said "nicotine is on OSHA's list of hazardous substances and Apple would not require an employee to repair anything deemed hazardous to their health."

They never said cancer, they said hazardous. Nicotine is toxic, exposure to high concentrations can kill people, lower concentrations can cause birth defects. Nicotine can also interfere with your body's natural defenses to cancer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Toxicology

And tar, which was also mentioned by Apple, is a carcinogen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Toxicology
post #284 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rot'nApple View Post

Maybe it was some other lifestyle choice of his like being a Vegan or genetically "in his DNA" so to speak. There are documented smokers that have died a ripe of age but not from lung cancer and some non-smokers that have died at an early age and never smoked a day in their life - Dana Reeve comes to mind.

and you're certain Dana Reeve never had significant exposure to 2nd hand smoke?
post #285 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by rybu0305 View Post

This is going to result in a lawsuit Apple is going to lose. I'm not a smoker but give me a break.

It is hard to love a Mac when Apple's politics and business rules are sometime so terrible.

how is Apple going to lose, the warranty is for manufacturing defects and expressly excludes issues due to abuse and neglect.
post #286 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

When the US is spoken of being litigious. That's talking about private litigation between two party's. That's completely different from governmental regulation. Which the US is not the most strict.

The air quality in major cities is not equal to sitting in a closed room with second hand smoke. You are stretching you point a bit thin.

To your first point... can't have litigation without laws and regulation (ie rules)

2nd point... stand on the corner of 42nd street for 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 15 years and come back and tell me it's not the same thing. Just because you can't see it don't mean the chems aren't there. Read some more up on it my friend.
turtles all the way up and turtles all the way down... infinite context means infinite possibility
Reply
turtles all the way up and turtles all the way down... infinite context means infinite possibility
Reply
post #287 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail View Post

and you're certain Dana Reeve never had significant exposure to 2nd hand smoke?

I think most consider radon gas to be the 2nd most serious risk factor for lung cancer.
post #288 of 332
Your example would apply to any highly trafficked street. No it would not be very good for you to have long term exposure to car emissions for years.

But your example is so extreme it's ultimately useless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spliff monkey View Post

2nd point... stand on the corner of 42nd street for 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 15 years and come back and tell me it's not the same thing. Just because you can't see it don't mean the chems aren't there. Read some more up on it my friend.
post #289 of 332
Good god will all you anti-smoking jerks get off your high horse! I know you love to make yourself feel better than those around you by whatever means you can but seriously. Not the debate here.

YES it's possible for someone who smokes WAY TOO MUCH to smoke damage their machine - as photos have been posted to show - if you smoke enough to tar your walls what do you expect to happen to the inside of your electronic devices? If you don't want to smoke less, then either buy a new machine or start smoking outside - computers aren't invulnerable and it would take years for that kind of tar to build up anyway.

However it's not the kind of thing a normal smoker would be afflicted by, I smoke in the same room as my Mac Pro every day (but in all my years of smoking have never smoked more than 10 a day) and there's nothing more than the normal dust build up in my machine.

I very much doubt apple are refusing repairs on a machine that's not been directly damaged as a result of smoke damage on the scale you might find running a machine next to a furnace.
MacMiner - the first native Mac Bitcoin, Litecoin and Alt coin mining app
Reply
MacMiner - the first native Mac Bitcoin, Litecoin and Alt coin mining app
Reply
post #290 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2992 View Post

Wrong.
Applecare is not 3 years extended. Applecare is 2 years extended as the first year is by default. So, you're getting 1 year default covered + 2 more years if you purchase Applecare = 3 years.
Dell is having "accidental damage", something which Apple doesn't have.

AppleCare is one year or 3 year extemded. 1+2=3. How about them Apples?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximara View Post

You want modern? OK.

Hybrid rice: Yuan Longping aka "The Father of Hybrid Rice" 1973
computerized laser photocomposition (ie Laser typsetting): Peking University Professor Wang Xuan "the Father of Chinese Language Laser Typesetting" 1974
First synthesized protein (bovine insulin): Wang Yinglai 1966
Compound artemether (Used to treat Malaria that has become resistant to other methods) , in Tu Youyou 1972.

And what part of these advancements run in computers today? The closest you have is laser typesetting from 35 years ago. How about getting on point and finding some modern tech that is currently being sold outside China in today’s CE.
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #291 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by camroidv27 View Post

Amazing pics you found there! Disgusting to say the least.

Anyhow, although I don't smoke, and despise second hand smoke (yay for a state law that prohibits smoking inside!) I don't see how Apple can get away with this one. The right thing to do would be to either deny Applecare up front (which may fall into some sort of other legal issue) or to refund the customers their Applecare. Also, can anyone find this stated in the Applecare warranty, and when it was introduced into its legal terms?

Agreed the techs should be safe, but if smoker issues pose that much of a problem, then that part that voids the warranty should be stated up front clearly (unlike how I just phrased this sentence)

I agree. The way they're handling it makes it looks like its trying to sell extended warranty under false pretense and then weasel their way out of them. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this eventually became a class action lawsuit, something that could have been avoided by either listing smoking as voiding the warranty or sending a notice that repairing such things is a health violations and allowing those who smoke or live with those who do to cancel their AppleCare.
post #292 of 332
Back when I fixed computers, every great once and a while someone would bring in a computer from a heavy indoor smoking home. You'd open it up and everything inside would be coated with a fuzzy-yet-sticky film of yellow residue (sometimes quite thick). The computer vented the smoke in and it caked over the components and casing inside. It was disgusting.

I refused service to every single one of these customers.
The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
Reply
The true measure of a man is how he treats someone that can do him absolutely no good.
  Samuel Johnson
Reply
post #293 of 332
As a former Apple Store employee, I can state that the number of Macs that come in for repair showing signs of their owner being a heavy smoker are few. The occasions when a computer shows substancial damage from the user smoking for hours sitting in front of their Mac are rare. But, when they come in, they stand out.

The white iMacs and iBooks begin to brown and yellow from the tar transferred from a smokers hands. The plastic around screens used to discolor and absorb odor.
Upon opening some Macs, the smell of 'electric cigarettes' would permiate the entire back of house at a store.
Many Mac Geniuses would wear gloves, masks, and goggles when attempting to repair these units.
Even worse... Mac owners with cats or roaches. Cats would rub on the warm computer. Roaches would make the computer their home.

My $.02 about the whole thing... smoking is perfectly legal. I have little issue with individuals who choose to partake in smoking regardless of the well documented risks. However, I have HUGE issue with the fact that most smokers feel like their 'right to smoke' superceded my 'right to not smoke'. The second hand smoke these folks spew is more toxic than the filteredmaterial they breath in by choice.

Even worse, smokers litter our highways, streets, parking lots, and sidewalks with their butts. Odd, I've never met a smoker who uses the ashtray in their car, but I've also never met a smoker who admits to flicking their butts onto the road. How do those butts get there?

The final straw - smokers who have children. The most ironic action I've seen is parents who stop drinking, eating raw fish, drinking caffine, etc while the child is in the womb. Yet, they are perfectly fine with welcoming the young child into their smoke filled home. Oh no wait... they "only smoke outside".. and in the car, and resturants, and while their child sits in their lap outside. "We love our kids, so we try not to smoke around them." "We love snakes, so we lock them up in glass aquariums." "I'm a bird lover, so I clip his wings and keep him in the cage in my home." "We're 'dog people', so we have this 100 lb dog in our apartment." "I'm a cat lover, so I have 40 of them." (a little humor folks)
post #294 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail View Post

Smoking in any public place or place of employment is illegal in Ohio - Ohio voters voted in favor of this ban in 2006.

I should have been more precise. Smoking in public where it affects others has been made illegal in many states and countries. Smoking where there is as much interaction with others as there is with the emissions from a car's tailpipe would likely not be affected.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #295 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC4Theo View Post

Just quit smoking, it's that simple. Smoking does not do anything for the smoker, so why should anyone who does not smoke work for hours on a product that is potentially hazardous to his or her health.
If you have asthma or in any way allergic to smoking, even buying and reading a used book from a smoking home, can cause you serious health problem. I know a car dealership that charges extra to work on any smoker vehicle.

Quit smoking. The only thing that will happen to you is that you will live longer with less health-related problems. And someone else do not have to suffer because you chose to suffocate your life.

To quote my Doctor recently when I said that I don't smoke- "It's too bad smoking is so bad for you, because it does a lot that is good." That being said, the harm outways the good and people really shouldn't smoke. Still, you should try to be informed before making absolute statements. People who smoke do so because it does do something for them. Have some compassion.

As for the topic of this thread, unless they can show either that the smoking damaged the computer, voiding the warranty, or that the tar is factually harmful, they should fix the computers.
post #296 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Zhu Xuande View Post

Back when I fixed computers, every great once and a while someone would bring in a computer from a heavy indoor smoking home. You'd open it up and everything inside would be coated with a fuzzy-yet-sticky film of yellow residue (sometimes quite thick). The computer vented the smoke in and it caked over the components and casing inside. It was disgusting.

I refused service to every single one of these customers.

Good for you. I might do the work for them, but I'd charge a premium (and I'd have to invest in a well-ventilated work area).

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

Reply
post #297 of 332
I once brought in a macbook for repairs after spilling coffee on it. It was still under warranty and the Apple store replaced the keyboard and optical drive at no charge. I expected to pay for the repairs. This is why I am a "Mac fanboy." Extraordinary products and service.
post #298 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

It's too late. (Trust me, I am no right-wing nut; indeed, far from it).

Neither am I. I'm a repubilcate. I votee on issues. Not the religiom or skin color.
post #299 of 332
[QUOTE=palegolas;1524620]This is groundbreaking! I'm all for a drug free world, especialy airbourne ones. [\\QUOTE]



I suggest then you go to the EPA website and look at the stats. Smoking is the least of you concerns. Ironically, the worst is China, where the macs are assembled. Communist too. And Mexico? Like smoking two packs a day that's how bad the air is. I never understood why we dint have a international DO NOT DRIVE DAY. even in Los Angeles I've noticed christmas day to appear the cleanest. No cars on the road. Just make it acgreen paid vacation day, helping the planet become better for us all.
Typed on iPhone.
post #300 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC4Theo View Post

Just quit smoking, it's that simple. Smoking does not do anything for the smoker, so why should anyone who does not smoke work for hours on a product that is potentially hazardous to his or her health.
If you have asthma or in any way allergic to smoking, even buying and reading a used book from a smoking home, can cause you serious health problem. I know a car dealership that charges extra to work on any smoker vehicle.

Quit smoking. The only thing that will happen to you is that you will live longer with less health-related problems. And someone else do not have to suffer because you chose to suffocate your life.

Still a free country. Where one can do what they want with their own self. Destroy it or meditate until the Apple's fall from the tree's. Your choice.

As to repair rejection... Sorry and sad. I work in Medical IT field. I've been in rooms with CT, MRI and Xray systems running. Dressed in lead. But this is still hazardous. And as much as I hate Dell THEY will replace the system NO QUESTIONS ASKED (as does IBM/Lenovo BTW).

Sorry your iPhone will not be repaired because it was operated in LA where the air quality is less than superb.
Sorry your iPod will not be repaird because it had sugar stickness on it and sugar is bad for you.

What are they gonna do in China? Where the air quality is less than smokers 2nd hand smoke...

It's BS like this I say "Hackintosh's to the rescue!"

Excuse me... I'm going out for a ciggy.
post #301 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post

Its one thing to refuse service because excessive tar actually caused the failure (Ive seen some disgusting stained walls in smokers homes). Maybe that can happen, hard as it is to believe.

Its another to say that no safety gear exists which allows workers to repair the machine safely. I feel certain that a properly-equipped repair tech could work on tobacco-slimed hardware for many years without taking in any of the toxins.

I suppose Apple could say that supplying such gear (and the extra time involved) makes the repair too expensive to cover...

One of many good points being overlooked in the anti-smoker tirades in this thread. The bottom line is simply that there are means to protect workers to OSHA safety regulations, and there are jobs that require exposure (plumbers to sewerage was a good analogy).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

(long rant - deleted)
Smoking will be illegal in public in your lifetime probably. Get used to it.

No disagreement - - but as of 2009, it still is both legal as well as conducted by a not-insignificant portion of society. As such, some amount of its presence is within the expected norms of Society - - in other words, within "Normal Wear & Tear" of Warranty langage. Of course, there is the issue still of "Slippery Slope" - - how much is normal versus excessive - - but what this is observing is that the accept/reject limit cannot be set at zero.


Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

One person was allegedly told that the damage was caused by tar buildup from smoking around the machine.

With the keyword here being ALLEGEDLY. I've not noticed any conspicuous mention of the Apple Service ID#, nor any photographs (proof evidence) provided supposedly by Apple. As such, I have my personal doubts as to the legitimacy of the entire claim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

A couple of points:

1) No computer coming in for repair, especially after any length of time, is clean and pristine inside. If being clean is a prerequisite for warranty service, most computers would be denied coverage.

Exactly. Accumulation of some amount of dust/misc is part of normal utilization and is what constitutes "Normal Wear and Tear" that is expected to be accomodated within Warranty Language.

Quote:
3) Nicotine probably has a very low precipitation rate on surfaces. The gunk in the computer is much more likely tar.

True, but smokers aren't an exctinct species, so their contributions also have to be considered to be part of the default environment that a product will need to be expected to routinely operate in. Ditto for contamination from Pet Dander, Los Angeles Smog, Midwestern Dust Storms, Florida Salt Air, etc.

If a hypothetical computer is for some reason quite highly vulnerable to these sorts of normal environmental hazards bringing it to an overheating halt, then it is a product design flaw ... a failure in having a HEPA-esque filter to be maintained. Afterall, our automobiles have air filters ... and so have there also been air filters on computer equipment - they're just not typically found on our cheap consumer level PCs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

As per Apple's standard hardware Warrantee decrees, i.e., "This warranty does not apply: (a) to damage caused by use with non-Apple products; (b) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, flood, fire, earthquake or other external causes, the presence of a sufficient substance to cause the computer to malfunction, is sufficient to negate the service.

Although having a machine come in for service with such visual evidence to conclude that the primary cause of failure is due to using it in a 'smoking' environment of any degree, proclaiming that "nicotine is on OSHA's list of hazardous substances and Apple would not require an employee to repair anything deemed hazardous to their health." may in part not be totally accurate.

This is dilemma of the 'slippery slope', namely of how much of a "smoke environment" can be considered as constituting "Normal Wear and Tear" (within Society Norms) that can reasonably be expected to be accomodated within Warranty Language.

Quote:
Certainly, the employees refusal to repair the computer under warranty is perfectly within their rights and Apple's position to protect their employees where it might be deemed a health hazard to any extent is equally valid.

Yes, but not quite: if the health hazard didn't void the Warranty, then the Warranty that was sold to the consumer still must be honored, lest Apple be in breach of contract.

And the business solution here is brutally simple: if the OSHA-required protection levels for the employee are more expensive than the computer, then the Warranty obligation can be fulfilled by hardware replacement instead of hardware repair. Alleged OSHA Problem...Solved!

And FWIW, I don't ever recall AppleCare having an escape clause of "not cost effective to repair" that permits them to completely walk away from the contract. If such language does exist, then I'd never pay for AppleCare.

Quote:
Keep in mind that some non-smokers can enter a locked 'smoking' room and be unaffected at all. Whereas, others become totally repulsed at even the thought of touching the door nob.

And this is what makes the 'Slippery Slope' problems more acute, particulary as the percentage of our Society that smokes becomes smaller: the current generation simply has no experience with what the levels of smoking used to be like ~30 years ago to really appreciate how relatively begnine they are today. Just consider how few people you see today with the condition of hard yellow fingertips due to the combination of nicotine, tar, and cellular death...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunga View Post

Must be a slow news day.

Perhaps. Until I see Service ID#s and photos of the alledgedly offending hardware, I'm cynically suspicious that this might also be contrived news.


Quote:
Originally Posted by @homenow View Post

If the damage is caused by smoke buildup then I agree with you, but just because there is a problem with the computer and there is smoke buildup in the system does not necessarily mean that the part that has gone bad did so due to smoke buildup. Even if there is a large amount of smoke buildup in the computer there could be a part that fails due to a manufacturing defect after a year or two of use.

An excellent point: the presence of an accumulation in of itself is not proof of causality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Quite right, but lack of maintenance, misuse and abuse of a machine trumps most manufacturers defects because its simply too hard to determine the cause if a machine is in such a state and no warranties for CE do not cover regular cleanings as part of the agreement, which would be required first and foremost before Apple could service most potential defects.

Understood, but there's also a certain marketplace expectation that influences upon whome the Burden of Proof resides. FWIW, this is why I'm suspicious of this report coming out without it being accompanied by photographic evidence as the basis of Apple's denial.

Quote:
These idiots should have cleaned out their own machine before sending it in, but...

Unfortunately, this suggestion can clearly be a double-edged sword, since sometimes the action of opening the case will void a Warranty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisTheXIV View Post

I think people are being willfully obtuse and blinded by their hatred of smokers. This is where the incessant anti-smoking campaign have taken us--towards absolute hatred and license to screw people.

Do you people not see where this can lead? No one is arguing that if smoke has actually DAMAGED your computer, that counts like any other reason to void a warranty from personal damage. What is however obvious from this "decree" is that if a computer merely "smells" of smoke that Apple deems it a "health hazard" which is beyond ridiculous. This opens the door for Apple to void warranties easily and without proof of anything. A computer may not be damaged at all by smoke residue but if it even has a wiff of left over smoke then they will call that a biohazard and refuse to service your computer.

An excellent point. Personally, if a company tried to pull this sort of BS on me, I'd sue them for a defective product: if its that damn fragile, then where's its integrated HEPA air filter?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkyss View Post

I own a mac and live in Oklahoma. Recently the burner stopped working. We have AppleCare so we took it in 2 days ago for repair. We just recieved a call today stating we needed to come get it because they are refusing to work on it due to health hazards from second hand smoke due to OSHA violations.

Sorry, but until I see an Apple Service Tracking ID#, I'm obligated to be cynical...


Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail View Post

how is Apple going to lose, the warranty is for manufacturing defects and expressly excludes issues due to abuse and neglect.

But as I said earlier, smoking still is both legal as well as conducted by a not-insignificant portion of society. As such, some amount of its presence is within the expected norms of Society - - in other words, within "Normal Wear & Tear" of Warranty langage.

Of course, there is the issue still of "Slippery Slope" - - how much accumulation is deemed normal versus excessive - - but the accept/reject limit simply cannot be set at zero.

And it doesn't matter if we're talking about smoke residue, lint, pet dander, LA Smog, or Miami salt air accumulations...there are all normal & routine environmental hazards for which the obligation is for the product design to be able to accomodate...afterall, no one's consumer laptop comes with a warning of "USE ONLY IN A CLASS 100 CLEAN ROOM".


-hh
post #302 of 332
From an engineers point of view there is only so much that can be done to a consumer product to make it fool proof. Engineers have packed prodigous amounts of computing performance into rediculously small packages. It is diffcult if not impossible to do that without using forced air cooling to keep it all cool enough to run. That means that whatever environment you are operating in gets sucked in and then blown out of the case. You want to use your laptop at the beach, thats abuse. You want to smoke around it, thats abuse. You want to let your cat use it as a place to nap, thats abuse. You want something that can stand up to all this abuse? Its called military ruggedized equipment and it is available at a considerably higher cost (not to mention weight and size). Do yourself a favor and use some not so common sense to protect your investment.
Finally, all the arguments about whether Apple could supply their workers with protective gear is beside the point. As a non smoker I am disgusted by everything associated with smoking. I will not even socialize with a smoker because they reek of stale tocacco smoke (not that fresh tobacco smoke is any better). I reserve the right to choose not to have anything to do with a smoker or his possesions and that includes at the workplace. I think Apple has shown an amount of compassion for its workforce by not forcing them to deal with anything contaminated by tobacco smoke, no matter how slightly. If you are a smoker you cannot understand just how gross, sickening, and just plain disgusting the smell of tobacco smoke can be. Its even worse than the smell of raw sewage.
post #303 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1 View Post

I think most consider radon gas to be the 2nd most serious risk factor for lung cancer.

Actually Radon gas is a non starter as a health hazard. You inspirate it, then you expirate it. No Problem. On the other hand the daughters of Radon are both solids and are both alpha particle emitters, again no problem UNLESS they happen to get lodged in your lungs. None of this would ever have been a problem if the psuedo scientists posing as environmentalists hadn't successfully sold the idea that conservation of energy is a "new" source of energy which led to the idea of making houses so airtight that they began to trap the radon gas that perculates up from the ground virtually everywhere. That's because uranium is ubiquitous and radon is a daughter of uranium. To protect yourself you should buy a drafty old shack to live in or open the windows in what you have.
post #304 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyscot View Post

Actually Radon gas is a non starter as a health hazard. You inspirate it, then you expirate it. No Problem. On the other hand the daughters of Radon are both solids and are both alpha particle emitters, again no problem UNLESS they happen to get lodged in your lungs. None of this would ever have been a problem if the psuedo scientists posing as environmentalists hadn't successfully sold the idea that conservation of energy is a "new" source of energy which led to the idea of making houses so airtight that they began to trap the radon gas that perculates up from the ground virtually everywhere. That's because uranium is ubiquitous and radon is a daughter of uranium. To protect yourself you should buy a drafty old shack to live in or open the windows in what you have.

Sorry but you seem to be in direct conflict with the EPA's statement:

"Radon is the number one cause of lung cancer among non-smokers, according to EPA estimates. Overall, radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer. Radon is responsible for about 21,000 lung cancer deaths every year. About 2,900 of these deaths occur among people who have never smoked."

http://www.epa.gov/radon/healthrisks.html


Also... Dr. Maria Neira of WHO said that "Most radon-induced lung cancers occur from low and medium dose exposures in people's homes. Radon is the second most important cause of lung cancer after smoking in many countries."
post #305 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Dude- that's not my post- why are you attributing that to me? It's too long for one thing.

Sorry about that. I didn't actually do that. I think there may have been a glitch at the time.
post #306 of 332
How else would Apple know the computer was exposed to cigarette smoke? Is it on the buyer's agreement that they have to indicate their smoking status? "Hey, you look all wrinkly and stink so you must be a smoker so sorry, we're not fixing your computer."

Seriously, it's not that hard to see if a computer is exposed to regular cigarette smoke. It speaks for itself! There's a big difference!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2 View Post

Yeah, right. How does Apple know a computer contains harmful substances in sufficient quantities to be harmful? (especially if they wouldn't even look at it?) They got an OSHA inspector at every repair station? The OSHA regulations on nicotine concern concentrations in air. Just containing a harmful substance doesn't mean the computer is harmful. Look at all the BFRs in their slightly older computers. Does Apple refuse to service them because of that?
post #307 of 332
Good. As a technician, I have been forced to work on computers that smelled so bad I felt nauseous, and every part felt sticky with smoke residue.

It's easy to tell if there's been a smoker around a computer for any significant length of time - unless you, too, are a smoker, and then of course you won't notice the stench.
post #308 of 332
Wow, you must live in your own little smoke filled bubble where cigarette smoke and tar is as clean and fresh as mountain air accented with the smell of daisies.

Get your head out of your butt and open your eyes to the realities of the toxicity of cigarette smoke. That yellow/brown hue on the walls of your home is not the paint colour you used. Really.

Oh, and with regards to your first sentence, "normal use" does not and should not mean being exposed to a regular haze of cigarette smoke. Dust and lint is normal. We all shed skin cells and wear clothes. A layer of tar from tobacco smoke is NOT normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbdoc View Post

AppleCare is for repairing computers that break. Usual warranty practice is something like "we'll repair your appliance if it breaks under normal use

<snip>

And if it were mentioned, I'd be enraged. If it broke down because of a build-up of lint and dust, I bet they'd fix it; how is smoke - "normal" tobacco smoke, not the smoke caused by the fire that burnt my house down - different? I can use my TV, etc., while smoking, without voiding the warranty, so why not my Mac?

And the health hazard part of this is outrageous. We're talking about smoke residue, not second-hand smoke, and I'd be curious to know what, if any, valid qualitative and quantitative studies have been done on the local or systemic effects of skin contact with cigaret smoke residue, and what these studies show.
post #309 of 332
We don't know the condition of the computers that Apple refused to fix. For all we know, they looked like the photo of the keyboard that was posted. If that were the case, can anyone blame Apple for refusing to fix it under warranty?

My original post/point was, if a computer is so obviously tobacco smoke damaged, Apple should not be responsible for repairing it under warranty. From the article, this sounds to have been the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

I agree. The way they're handling it makes it looks like its trying to sell extended warranty under false pretense and then weasel their way out of them. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this eventually became a class action lawsuit, something that could have been avoided by either listing smoking as voiding the warranty or sending a notice that repairing such things is a health violations and allowing those who smoke or live with those who do to cancel their AppleCare.
post #310 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisTheXIV View Post

just another big corporation trying to screw its customers out of costly warranties...

Ever since the inception of the warranty, companies have been finding ways any way they can to not honor them.

This is a nice and simple way of voiding your warranty even if there is no proof of anything. Next up...if you ever sneeze around your computer the warranty is null! Afterall...it might be a flu hazard...

Since when was smoke damage considered a covered warranty repair? No proof of anything? How about the computers smell like SHIT because that is what happens to clothes, cars, and other household items when they are around smoke. Your comment is pointless and full of crap. There are plenty of companies that go out of their way to resolve warranty and even non-warranty issues (called Goodwill repair) on certain products (even Apple continues to repair the liquid cooled Power Mac G5's when they leak). The owners are negligent for subjecting the equipment to smoke damage.

Employers have every right to protect their employees from health hazards. I wouldn't want to work on a computer that smelled like a dirty ass ashtray. The smokers don't get it because they don't realize they sit in their own filth all day long reeking of an ashtray.

That is why good sellers on eBay advertise that their item came from a smoke-free environment because no one wants to acquire something that smells like a nicotine addict.
post #311 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

There are many respectable smokers.

No, they can't avoid the smoke. They all smell like an ashtray. None of them are respectable. But that was their choice to get addicted.
post #312 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormchild View Post

Please retire from writing and do something else instead.

I agree. AppleInsider has a bunch of high school drop outs writing the articles.
post #313 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

Considering your argument consists of a lame citing of Child Labor laws and obscure mining equipment regulations to support your "government knows best and solves all" argument, you appear to have a very weak case. I'll give you one more chance, then I'll argue your own side for you. Only because I can't stand your incompetence.

Your inability to grasp arguments and nuance is just pathetic. You tromp around an argument like a hippo trying to ballet dance. You are my intellectual inferior and always will be -- no matter how hard you try to pretend otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

Love to hear about your breakthroughs in physics and the classic literature you've authored.

Yet another example of your inability to keep up. Someone can do important work without it being in the fields of the people you cited. Here's a hint: Something I helped build and test is currently over 116 million miles from Earth and still thrusting using ion propulsion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

Yes, you did indeed equate smokers with rapists."

You liar!

You:

Dunno about that, there have been some pretty awesome smokers in our history.

Me: Yeah, and some awesome pedophiles, wife beaters, rapists, and murderers, too, right? That's not 'equating'. It's showing how stupid you were to suggest that the societal contributions of smokers somehow meant that smoking should be viewed less harshly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

Good luck with that. Everybody else disagrees with you

Cite your sources for that. If "everyone else" disagrees, just who is it who voted for laws and regulations to determine what was "safe enough" in a mine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

*Remedial History Lesson*

You took a lot of that, I can tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

According to the Constitution and Bill of Rights, the People only grant specific, limited powers to the Government. Not the other way around.

And some of those powers include providing for the "general welfare" of the citizens. OSHA's establishing document included "The Congress declares it to be its purpose and policy, through the exercise of its powers to regulate commerce among the several States and with foreign nations and to provide for the general welfare, to assure so far as possible every working man and woman in the Nation safe and healthful working conditions and to preserve our human resources --"

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

I know this is a foreign concept, but most people can think for themselves and make big boy decisions.

Save your "big boy" comments for the children you're trying to hit on at the mall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

A lot of people that work in mining are pretty damned educated and specialized in their field.

Educated and desperate are not mutually exclusive. People who are financially desperate will take risks that others will not. That's one reason why the government regulates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

But in your world, mining companies are evil

Your stupidity is giving me a headache. There's a major difference between amoral and evil. Most companies look for ways to maximize profits. That's an amoral goal -- not an evil one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

I guess they must have endless supply of money and poor people to keep retraining, and that nobody of a senior status ever sets foot in a mine?

So I guess you think that the government passed regulations requiring that mining companies keep doing the same things that they had been doing all along? You honestly believe that the federal government stepped in and said "This is a safe working environment. We must pass legislation and regulations requiring that they keep up the good work."?

Here's your remedial history lesson: In 1910, following a decade in which the number of coal mine fatalities exceeded 2,000 annually, Congress established the Bureau of Mines as a new agency in the Department of the Interior. The Bureau was charged with the responsibility to conduct research and to reduce accidents in the coal mining industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

You must think poor people are so desperate that they'll work in super dangerous mines?

Who do you think has been dying in the mines? Wealthy CEOs? Mining is one of the most perilous industries to work in according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, with a death rate 27.8 deaths in mining for every 100,000 workers in 2007. Did you think that 5% of miners have evidence of black lung disease because mines are so safe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

You think only the miners are affected in a disaster? How about the mining company? Why would they, in your wildest fantasies want a mine to collapse, stop their productivity, and lose all that money in the market?

You really don't understand basic economics and capitalism. Amazing. Of course mining companies don't want disasters to happen. But neither are they willing to cut production in half and quadruple the investment in safety equipment, training, and procedures to prevent it. To put it in terms simple enough for you to understand, unregulated capitalism rewards companies who are the most efficient, not those with the best safety record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

Dude, you got pØwned. No amount of selective quoting can change that.

Jesus F***ing Christ, I'm trying to debate with a 12 year old. But to clear things up, I've completely and totally dominated you in this discussion, making it obvious to everyone reading that you are an imbecile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

Profound, but you're ignoring the part where you said "government regulation" led to this. Kind of like saying US laws concerning theft, led to the prevailing notion that theft is bad. Try again.

Government regulation did lead to McDonalds and Walmart not having 12 year olds working 12 hour days seven days a week. You think that they just decided that it would be "wrong" on their own?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

Once again - it's common knowledge and undisputed that Child Labor laws/the government were ineffective in changing the abuses of children in this country during the Industrial Revolution...

So you've decided that a law is only effective if there is almost immediate compliance with it. You can't cite the effect decades later to show that the law is a good and valuable thing. You can't show how it became useful as enforcement was stepped up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oxygenhose View Post

Pick a university, write their history department about it. In the meantime... I'll have fries with that.

Have some cigarettes, too. The sooner you die, the better off we all will be.
post #314 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillstones View Post

No, they can't avoid the smoke. They all smell like an ashtray. None of them are respectable. But that was their choice to get addicted.

New England Journal of medicine have had reports that smoking is just as, if not more so, addicting then heroin and much harder to quit. It was just a few short years ago that the tobacco companies were found liable for targeting teens and had to pay millions in restatutiion. Knowone grows up saying they want to be addicted to anything, and now they say to much caffeine may be hazardous to your health.

And for the record, pot was seen as a threat to the lumbering farms in the 1800's, so this is where the first out law came from. The paper companies. I sontbamoke it but if it were legal like in Amsterdam, we would not jabs the crime that we have. In the NE, they don't even talk about it. It's all programming of the mind.

I remember sitting there watching a tv show in Dutch, both people were naked and then had sex, there were a few teena there. They never once looked up from their books. We make up for the lack of nudity by using violence which is illegal in holland. If you are programmed to be an anti smoker, then the right message got through. Sure, it can be dagerous but like some have said, some people fie without ever smoking ( cancer ), while others smoke Ns live to 100.
post #315 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnchi View Post

I totally understand where Apple is coming from. I work on PC's at work and I have had to work on users notebooks that looked, and smelled like they were using it as an ash tray. Its disgusting! I smell and feel dirty after working on it.

I will say though, Apple should refund them the cost of AppleCare since they neglected to warn customers that smoking will void the agreement.

That aside, Apple has every right to deny these computers. It isn't just shirking costs for repairs, it's avoiding huge pay outs to these employees when they sue Apple for making them handle equipment deemed toxic by OSHA! You want Apple to work on your tar covered laptop, then you should sign something saying you will be responsible for any & all legal fees if brought against Apple as well as any possible health effects on the employee both current & future!
post #316 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

This is truly mind-boggling, if true! Corporatism at its worst. Can't they wear some gloves and a mask?! Where are we heading next? Apple campus is going to be sealed off in an antiseptic bubble?

At the least, I hope Apple refunded their money.

Why would one wear a mask and gloves to protect themselves just because a customer has chosen to perform an unhealthy activity on a regular basis? It's the same principle as if someone were to get some sort of toxic drug on the case of a computer and asked an Apple employee to deal with it by putting on a body suit during repair. It isn't Apple's problem if someone wishes to engage in such activities.
post #317 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by hezekiahb View Post

I will say though, Apple should refund them the cost of AppleCare since they neglected to warn customers that smoking will void the agreement.

Except that it doesn't void the agreement. The agreement is that Apple will fix manufacturing defects. A computer damaged by a build-up of tar and nicotine is not an example of a manufacturing defect.

Going beyond that, the agreement does not promise that Apple's technicians will handle or clean-up toxic waste -- or even disgusting things. It may be completely legal for you to defecate and urinate in your own car, but if you do, don't be surprised if the car dealer refuses to do warranty work on it. If you were like most of the smokers who have commented in this thread, you would be infuriated that the dealership was unwilling to make their service technicians to don masks and gloves and push urine-soaked turds out of the way in order to service your car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hezekiahb View Post

You want Apple to work on your tar covered laptop, then you should sign something saying you will be responsible for any & all legal fees if brought against Apple as well as any possible health effects on the employee both current & future!

Whoa! So imagine yourself as the technician who was told "the customer is taking legal responsibility if you get sick, so we told him that you'd clean up the computer that he spilled his bedpan into." I think the old Nancy Reagan 'just say no' policy on Apple's part is the right one.
post #318 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckh1272 View Post

Two things:

1st-There is much more to this "story" than is being revealed. That much should be obvious.

2nd-Regarding this whole smoking deal, ignore all the health aspects and political/media BS associated with it. The fact is humans are the only animals on this earth that VOLUNTARILY put smoke in their bodies. Even a monkey has to be trained to do that.

Just a little food for thought, if it helps anyone.

ironic, isn't it. I mean we can fly to outter space, use microwaves and IMHO, are on the cusp of revoluntionary changes and advancements. My sister was in the air force, stationed in Nevada and a few of the stories are right out if x files.
Anyway, the irony is that out of all the species, we are the most frail when it comes to birth. Look at how penguins or dolphins, cubs, kagaroos are when born. Everything is instinct yet we have to clothe, bath, protect as the baby is clueless compared to other baby animals.

Peace.
post #319 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiimamac View Post

ironic, isn't it. I mean we can fly to outter space, use microwaves and IMHO, are on the cusp of revoluntionary changes and advancements. My sister was in the air force, stationed in Nevada and a few of the stories are right out if x files.
Anyway, the irony is that out of all the species, we are the most frail when it comes to birth. Look at how penguins or dolphins, cubs, kagaroos are when born. Everything is instinct yet we have to clothe, bath, protect as the baby is clueless compared to other baby animals.

Peace.

There is a level of complexity of the organism that seems to largely follows the capacity of the young when born. There also seems to be some exceptions for certain species. Horses offspring can walk and run within minutes of being born but this seems to be one of those survival of fittest, evolutionary situations.

Primates can care for their young at a higher level so there seems to be no reason for a more developed offspring to be born. Your examples are interesting. Penguins take a lot of care to the egg and the offspring keeping both warm and feeding them for several months (I think) after birth until they have developed warming feathers, body fat, and learned enough to fish for themselves. Kangaroos intensively climb from the womb to the pouch if I recall correctly but are then protected by the mother until they are quite large (or at least larger than I would have expected). Cubs, like kittens and puppies are born very frail and require a lot of attention and then specific training from the parent to learn certain hunting skills, as I recall.

Just yesterday I read the article below on oxytocin production which may drive us to be social creatures and may be what causes a mother to clean her pups after birth.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/science/24angier.html
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
Reply
post #320 of 332
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail View Post

My father, along with quite a few people he worked with, died because his employer thought it okay to knowingly let them work with known hazardous materials - asbestos.

How can you honestly be this upset with a company who is taking a stand to protect their workers from a known health hazard? Are the warranty repair workers supposed to die to fix computers that were not faulty in the first place, but were rather damaged by neglect of their owners? Owners who knowingly put carcinogens in their body and in their air?

Also a company who CEO nearly died from cancer - you want him to force his workers to work with known carcinogens?

I'm sorry to hear about your father.

The problem is that *if* Apple has refused warranty service due to 'safety of our workers' BS, then they are spreading a huge amount of FUD. Tar on PCBs is not particularly dangerous. The solvents used in cleaning the machine are no worse than those found in any car shop. Proper worker education would solve any problems.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Discussion
AppleInsider › Forums › General › General Discussion › Smoking may void Applecare warranty