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Climategate - Page 61

post #2401 of 3039
Thread Starter 
Read the following carefully:

An increase in CO2 did not cause Kilimanjaro's ice to melt.

People cut a bunch of trees down around Kilimanjaro which - according to the study referenced in the link I posted - is believed to be the cause of the ice melting.

I was not one of those people who cut down said trees, nor did I advocate for their removal.

I am not responsible for Kilimanjaro's ice melting.

Therefore, you can no longer use Kilimanjaro's ice melting as an excuse to take away my freedom to choose.

Please let me know if this is too difficult for you to understand.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2402 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Read the following carefully:

An increase in CO2 did not cause Kilimanjaro's ice to melt.

People cut a bunch of trees down around Kilimanjaro which - according to the study referenced in the link I posted - is believed to be the cause of the ice melting.

I was not one of those people who cut down said trees, nor did I advocate for their removal.

I am not responsible for Kilimanjaro's ice melting.

Therefore, you can no longer use Kilimanjaro's ice melting as an excuse to take away my freedom to choose.

Please let me know if this is too difficult for you to understand.

It says "AGGRESIVE tree-felling on mount Kilimanjaro could partly be to blame for its vanishing ice cap." But you think climate change is for commies so I guess you must be right.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #2403 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Read the following carefully:

An increase in CO2 did not cause Kilimanjaro's ice to melt.

People cut a bunch of trees down around Kilimanjaro which - according to the study referenced in the link I posted - is believed to be the cause of the ice melting.

I was not one of those people who cut down said trees, nor did I advocate for their removal.

I am not responsible for Kilimanjaro's ice melting.

Therefore, you can no longer use Kilimanjaro's ice melting as an excuse to take away my freedom to choose.

Please let me know if this is too difficult for you to understand.

Read the following carefully.
Trees consume CO2.
Global warming is not just about CO2 but all factors combined. If you live on earth, which I have come to doubt, you are responsible for it. God said so.
They took away your freedom to drive with leaded gas as well. If they tell you to use different light bulbs you'll still have light.
You want to take a woman's right to choose what she can or can not do with her body, you want to prevent gay people from getting married, freedom to choose my ass, you are a complete ... (censored by AI) ç(
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #2404 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Read the following carefully:

An increase in CO2 did not cause Kilimanjaro's ice to melt.

People cut a bunch of trees down around Kilimanjaro which - according to the study referenced in the link I posted - is believed to be the cause of the ice melting.

I was not one of those people who cut down said trees, nor did I advocate for their removal.

I am not responsible for Kilimanjaro's ice melting.

Therefore, you can no longer use Kilimanjaro's ice melting as an excuse to take away my freedom to choose.

Please let me know if this is too difficult for you to understand.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...eefelling.html

Quote:
AGGRESSIVE tree-felling on mount Kilimanjaro could be partly to blame for its vanishing ice cap.

The ice on Kilimanjaro's summit has shrunk to just 15 per cent of its extent in 1912, leading campaigners to hold it up as a symbol of climate change. But other factors are also at play. For instance, the air at the summit is getting drier, reducing the snowfall that replenishes the ice and reflects solar radiation.

Although the article does state that the aggressive tree felling is a possible contributing factor for the ice cap shrinking, it does not rule out global warming and changing weather patterns.

One example that seems to controvert Global Warming does not make the theory incorrect. This is not an exact science. To illustrate this point:

Himalayan Melting: How a Climate Panel Got It Wrong
By BRYAN WALSH

Quote:
[A] new scandal broke over climate science. Faced with criticism of a widely quoted piece of analysis from its 2007 climate assessment that warned that Himalayan glaciers could melt by 2035, the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) was forced to admit to relying on dubious scientific sources, apologized and retracted its earlier estimate. That estimate of the rate of Himalayan glacier loss because of warming, which appeared in the same assessment that earned the global body a share of the Nobel Peace Prize, was "poorly substantiated," the IPCC said.

To say the least. The controversy stems from a single paragraph in Chapter 10 of the report's second section, which claimed that glaciers in the Himalayas were receding faster than in any other part of the world, and that "if the present rate continues, the likelihood of them disappearing by the year 2035 or perhaps sooner is very high if the Earth keeps warming at its current rate." Glaciologists have been doubtful of that 2035 date since the report came out.

It turns out the 2035 estimate came not from a peer-reviewed scientific paper but from an interview conducted in 1999 by New Scientist magazine with the Indian glaciologist Syed Hasnain. The article, which included a "speculative" claim by Hasnain that the Himalayan glaciers could vanish by 2035, then became part of a 2005 report by the World Wildlife Fund and that report, apparently, became the source for the IPCC claim.

It's still not clear exactly how the error made it into the IPCC's assessment, though climate scientists point out that the document was thousands of pages long and that the Himalaya claim wasn't included in the summary of the report, which was boiled down for policymakers and received the most attention from reviewers. "Honest mistakes do happen," admits Benjamin Santer, a climate modeler at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. "The bulk of the science is clear and compelling and rests on multiple lines of evidence," he says, not just one case.

Indeed, while Himalayan ice will almost certainly still be here in 2035, it is definitely melting and that will have a serious impact on the billions of people in Asia who depend at least partially on Himalayan meltwater. Yao Tandong, head of China's Institute of Tibetan Plateau Research, has done on-the-ground research on the Chinese side of the Himalayas the world's biggest collection of ice outside the two poles and reported last year that by the end of the century, as much as 70% of the mountain range's glaciers could disappear. And far from providing evidence against climate change, nearly all alpine glaciers worldwide that have been tracked have shown significant melting over the past several decades often documented in photographs. "It's happening globally, in Europe, North America, China and the Himalayas," says Lonnie Thompson, a glacier expert at Ohio State University. "More than 90% of the world's glaciers are retreating. Glaciers have no political agenda."

However, while climate scientists have built a nearly airtight case that climate change is happening and that manmade greenhouse-gas emissions are the primary cause, the IPCC's error demonstrates that it is still difficult to make tight predictions about the future especially on a regional or local level.

Beyond that, the mere appearance of scientific impropriety might be enough to turn off those who are doubtful about global warming or just doubtful that the case is strong enough to warrant passing cap and trade.

http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...955405,00.html

The Himalayan along with the Kilimanjaro examples might be used by the anti Global Warming lobby to prove that the theory is rift with errors, but the above article does point out that the theory is correct.

Quote:
[W]hile climate scientists have built a nearly airtight case that climate change is happening and that manmade greenhouse-gas emissions are the primary cause, the IPCC's error demonstrates that it is still difficult to make tight predictions about the future.

But for the sake of argument, let's say that the Global Warming--Climate Change Theory is wrong---what would be the damage in implementing some of the policies? Using less fossil fuels would clean up the environment, and the petroleum could be used to make plastics, fertilizers, etc. More efficient use of energy and conversion to alternate energy will also clean up the environment and save some rivers.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2405 of 3039
Thread Starter 
I guess it was too difficult for Wormhole to understand.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2406 of 3039
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

But for the sake of argument, let's say that the Global Warming--Climate Change Theory is wrong---what would be the damage in implementing some of the policies? Using less fossil fuels would clean up the environment, and the petroleum could be used to make plastics, fertilizers, etc. More efficient use of energy and conversion to alternate energy will also clean up the environment and save some rivers.

Specify the policies you want to implement and I will tell you whether I think they would do more harm than good.

Did you know that I believe we should reduce our dependency on oil - especially foreign oil? I also believe we should be responsible stewards of the earth and do our best to have as little as possible negative impact on the environment.

And guess what? I do use CFLs in my home.

I am somewhat concerned about the total impact that hybrid cars have on our environment - from manufacture to junk yard. But I do plan to own at least one in the future.

I am typing this post on a custom built Intel Atom box that I built myself. The Atom CPU only consumes 29 Watts at idle - less than half of what a standard 60 watt incandescent light bulb consumes.

I assure you, I am very interested in doing more with less. Maybe for slightly different reasons than those who believe that every time they exhale they are killing the planet. You'd think they'd be happy that I'm trying to do my part, but that's not enough for them. For some reason, it is imperative that I believe exactly as they do and agree with whatever radical measures they propose, such as Cap and Tax, er..."Trade".

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2407 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I guess it was too difficult for Wormhole to understand.

Someone called you "guru" and you didn't know what it meant. Now I am pretty sure you got that title for a reason that is the exact opposite of what it means to be a guru. You got punk'd.

Yeah. I it was too difficult for me to understand. You are correct. Oh guru.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #2408 of 3039
Thread Starter 
Sea Level Falling In 2010

Quote:
We are constantly being told that 2010 is the hottest year ever, and that the polar ice caps are melting down at a record rate. Dr. Hansen tells us to expect 3-6+ metres of sea level rise this century. That would be a minimum of 30 mm/year.

Quote:
Only problem is, since the start of the hottest year ever, sea level has fallen 10 mm.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2409 of 3039
Thread Starter 
Splattergate – the new Climategate?

The Eco-Fascists have nobody to blame but themselves for this one.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2410 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Specify the policies you want to implement and I will tell you whether I think they would do more harm than good.

Gee, that's awfully kind of you.

I used to drive a lot in LA. Recently, I have been going from where I live to the LA Co. Law Library. Used to take me 30-40 minutes to drive to downtown and find parking. Parking cost $7-$20 depending where you park. For less you have to walk from Alvarado about 10 minutes walk to LACoLL.

Now I take public transportation--the LA Metro Subway--takes me 12-15 minutes and a 5 minute walk to the LACoLL and cost me $0.25- $0.55 one way. Less gas and if more people use the Metro, less parking spaces in downtown that can be used for parks and buildings--housing.

Also used the Express to Santa Monica Court House--no more freeway driving for me to SM.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2411 of 3039
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2412 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Sea Level Falling In 2010

Quote:
Only problem is, since the start of the hottest year ever, sea level has fallen 10 mm.

Don't try to apply common sense to a leftist talking point...

post #2413 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Don't try to apply common sense to a leftist talking point...


If you really believed in common sense you be asking why there are a few people who still think GW is just a conspiracy by the left with so much evidence available.

If you don't get the facts believe your own eyes!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6041360.ece
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #2414 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Sea Level Falling In 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camp David View Post

Don't try to apply common sense to a leftist talking point...


The data doesn't support your contention. Appears long term sea levels on the rise.







Since August 1992 the satellite altimeters have been measuring sea level on a global basis with unprecedented accuracy. The TOPEX/POSEIDON (T/P) satellite mission provided observations of sea level change from 1992 until 2005. ason-1, launched in late 2001 as the successor to T/P, continues this record by providing an estimate of global mean sea level every 10 days with an uncertainty of 3-4 mm. The latest mean sea level time series and maps of regional sea level change can be found on this site. http://sealevel.colorado.edu/wizard.php

http://sealevel.colorado.edu/maps.php

Quote:
The blue line in the graph below clearly shows sea level as rising, while the upward curve suggests sea level is rising faster as time goes on. The upward curve agrees with global temperature trends and with the accelerating melting of ice in Greenland and other places.

Various technical criticisms are mounted against satellite altimeter measurements by skeptics. Indeed, deriving millimeter-level accuracy from orbit is a stunning technical feat so it's not hard to understand why some people find such an accomplishment unbelievable. In point of fact, researchers demonstrate this height measurement technique's accuracy to be within 1mm/year. Most importantly there is no form of residual error that could falsely produce the upward trend in observations.

As can be seen in an inset of the graph above, tide gauge and satellite altimeter measurements track each other with remarkable similarity. These two independent systems mutually support the observed trend in sea level. If an argument depends on skipping certain observations or emphasizes uncertainty while ignoring an obvious trend, that's a clue you're being steered as opposed to informed. Don't be mislead by only a carefully-selected portion of the available evidence being disclosed.

Current sea level rise is after all not exaggerated, in fact the opposite case is more plausible. Observational data and changing conditions in such places as Greenland suggest if there's a real problem here it's underestimation of future sea level rise. The IPCC synthesis reports offer conservative projections of sea level increase based on assumptions about future behavior of ice sheets and glaciers, leading to estimates of sea level roughly following a linear upward trend mimicking that of recent decades. In point of fact, observed sea level rise is already above IPCC projections and strongly hints at acceleration while at the same time it appears the mass balance of continental ice envisioned by the IPCC is overly optimistic ( Rahmstorf 2010 ).

http://www.skepticalscience.com/sea-level-rise.htm
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2415 of 3039
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2416 of 3039

Quotes from jg's article

Quote:
Until now it has been assumed that less activity from the Sun equates to less warming of the Earth.

But the new research, which focuses on a three-year snapshot of time between 2004 and 2007, suggests the opposite may be true.

If the new findings apply to long as well as short time periods, this could translate into a small degree of cooling rather than the slight warming effect shown in existing climate models. It would effectively turn received wisdom on its head.

Sceptics are likely to say the results further undermine the reliability of climate change science, especially with regard to solar effects.

Professor Joanna Haigh, from Imperial College London, who led the study, said:
Quote:
These results are challenging what we thought we knew about the Sun's effect on our climate.

However, they only show us a snapshot of the Sun's activity and its behaviour over the three years of our study could be an anomaly.

'We cannot jump to any conclusions based on what we have found during this comparatively short period and we need to carry out further studies to explore the sun's activity and the patterns that we have uncovered on longer timescales.

'However, if further studies find the same pattern over a longer period of time, this could suggest that we may have overestimated the sun's role in warming the planet, rather than underestimating it.'

'I think it doesn't give comfort to the climate sceptics at all,' she said.

'It may suggest that we don't know that much about the Sun. It casts no aspersions at all upon the climate models.'

Quote:
'At face value, the data seem incredibly important,' Michael Lockwood, a space physicist at the University of Reading, told Nature.com.

'If solar activity is out of phase with solar radiative forcing, it could change our understanding of how processes in the troposphere and stratosphere act to modulate Earth's climate.'

'The findings could prove very significant when it comes to understanding, and quantifying, natural climate fluctuations,' he added.

'But no matter how you look at it, the Sun's influence on current climate change is at best a small natural add-on to man-made greenhouse warming.'

'All the evidence is that the vast majority of warming is anthropogenic. It might be that the solar part isn't quite working the way we thought it would, but it is certainly not a seismic rupture of the science.'
'It may suggest that we don't know that much about the Sun.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete....html?ITO=1490
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2417 of 3039
Thread Starter 
Tropics more affected by global warming: study

Quote:
"The expectation was that physiological changes would also be greatest in the north temperate-Arctic region, but when we ran the numbers that expectation was flipped on its head," said lead author Michael Dillon, an assistant professor of zoology and physiology at the University of Wyoming, in a release.

The researchers believe that increases in temperature are raising animals' temperatures and metabolic rates, stressing their bodies by requiring them to seek more food and oxygen, rather than focusing on reproduction. Organisms in the Arctic are more adaptable to temperature fluctuations because of the seasonal changes in temperature, other research has shown.

Fascinating stuff. I guess we don't know as much about the Arctic and the resiliency of its animals as we thought.

Maybe we don't know as much about the earth's climate as we thought.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2418 of 3039
Quote:

Issue in tropics more along the lines of:

Global Warming and Tropical Land-Use Change: Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Biomass Burning, Decomposition and Soils in Forest Conversion, Shifting Cultivation and Secondary Vegetation
Philip M. Fearnside

Quote:
Tropical forest conversion, shiftingcultivation and clearing of secondary vegetation makesignificant contributions to global emissions ofgreenhouse gases today, and have the potential forlarge additional emissions in future decades. Globally, an estimated 3.1×109 t of biomasscarbon of these types is exposed to burning annually,of which 1.1×109 t is emitted to the atmospherethrough combustion and 49×106 t is converted tocharcoal (including 2631×106 t C of blackcarbon). The amount of biomass exposed to burningincludes aboveground remains that failed to burn ordecompose from clearing in previous years, andtherefore exceeds the 1.9×109 t of abovegroundbiomass carbon cleared on average each year. Above-and belowground carbon emitted annually throughdecomposition processes totals 2.1×109 t C. Atotal gross emission (including decomposition ofunburned aboveground biomass and of belowgroundbiomass) of 3.41×109 t C year-1 resultsfrom clearing primary (nonfallow) and secondary(fallow) vegetation in the tropics. Adjustment fortrace gas emissions using IPCC Second AssessmentReport 100-year integration global warming potentialsmakes this equivalent to 3.39×109 t ofCO2-equivalent carbon under a low trace gasscenario and 3.83×109 t under a high trace gasscenario. Of these totals, 1.06×109 t (31%)is the result of biomass burning under the low tracegas scenario and 1.50×109 t (39%) under thehigh trace gas scenario. The net emissions from allclearing of natural vegetation and of secondaryforests (including both biomass and soil fluxes) is2.0×109 t C, equivalent to 2.02.4×109 t of CO2-equivalent carbon. Adding emissions of0.4×109 t C from land-use category changesother than deforestation brings the total for land-usechange (not considering uptake of intact forest,recurrent burning of savannas or fires in intactforests) to 2.4×109 t C, equivalent to 2.42.9×109 t of CO2-equivalent carbon. The totalnet emission of carbon from the tropical land usesconsidered here (2.4×109 t C year-1)calculated for the 19811990 period is 50% higherthan the 1.6×109 t C year-1 value used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The inferred (= `missing') sink in the global carbonbudget is larger than previously thought. However,about half of the additional source suggested here maybe offset by a possible sink in uptake by Amazonianforests. Both alterations indicate that continued deforestation would produce greater impact on globalcarbon emissions. The total net emission of carbon calculated here indicates a major global warmingimpact from tropical land uses, equivalent to approximately 29% of the total anthropogenic emission from fossil fuels and land-use change.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2419 of 3039
GOP is the only conservative political party in the world to dismiss climate science.

British, French, German conservatives: Global Warming greatest threat to security the world has ever faced. Number 1 international crisis to address. Pretty much that's all they want to talk about.

Even people like McCain and other GOPlers had to abandon their conviction that global warming is a man made disaster. If these guys get into power the US will be the greatest obstacle to a sustainable future the world has ever seen and will be the laughing stock of conservatives around the world.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #2420 of 3039
Thread Starter 
2 points:

1) The GOP is not a conservative political party.

2) The Anthropogenic Global Warming movement has very little to do with science.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2421 of 3039
You are not the arbiter of what is or is not science. You do not get to claim that when your own beliefs fall well outside the bounds of science and cannot distinguish this fact for yourself.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #2422 of 3039
Thread Starter 
I'm going to challenge you to do something that might be hard for you to do, but that I know you are capable of doing:

Make a reply to my comments without making it personal. I dare you.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2423 of 3039
I am making an anonymous challenge to anyone out there who would like to have an intelligent discussion about anything scientific. I challenge anyone who claims something isn't science to rescind any claims that certain personal beliefs not grounded in science whatsoever are somehow scientific.

WHO WILL TAKE THE ANONYMOUS CHALLENGE?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #2424 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

GOP is the only conservative political party in the world to dismiss climate science.

British, French, German conservatives: Global Warming greatest threat to security the world has ever faced. Number 1 international crisis to address. Pretty much that's all they want to talk about.

Even people like McCain and other GOPlers had to abandon their conviction that global warming is a man made disaster. If these guys get into power the US will be the greatest obstacle to a sustainable future the world has ever seen and will be the laughing stock of conservatives around the world.

ERRATA:
GOP is the only political party in the world to dismiss climate science.

Sorry, I made a mistake.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #2425 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

ERRATA:
GOP is the only political party in the world to dismiss climate science.

Sorry, I made a mistake.

Oh shit there's another mistake I've made: These guys don't believe in climate science either:
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #2426 of 3039
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Oh shit there's another mistake I've made: These guys don't believe in climate science either:

Don't they believe in universal healthcare?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2427 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

Oh shit there's another mistake I've made: These guys don't believe in climate science either:

Maybe it's a racial diversity issue?
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #2428 of 3039
By Roger Harrabin
Environment analyst, Tianjin, China

Quote:
Campaigners say the money is essential to help people adapt to a changing climate
Rich nations are failing to live up to their promise of giving US$30bn to poor countries to help them cope with climate change, according to a report.



The money was pledged at last year's Copenhagen summit in order to build trust between rich and poor nations.

If the findings are correct, it confirms allegations by pressure groups that rich countries are repackaging existing funds and presenting them as special climate finance.

Campaigners claim programmes to tackle poverty will suffer if this is allowed to happen.

Cash transfer from rich to poor is a major theme at the Tianjin climate conference, the last major gathering before this year's UN climate summit in Mexico.

Delegates also heard an up date about potential sources for the agreed $100bn long-term climate finance.

The paper concludes that if the only funds counted are new climate funds additional to official aid budgets since Copenhagen, then the sum raised so far is just $8.2bn.

The panel's conclusions will be examined closely because the US and the UK both insist that public sector money will be used to leverage private sector investment - much of it from the carbon markets.

Henry Derwent, CEO of the International Emissions Trading Association, said governments might be over-estimating the cash that could be generated from markets.

"The current maximum primary market investment under the CDM (Clean Development Mechanism - the official international carbon trading market) is $2-3bn a year," he told BBC News.

"With the current trend in carbon prices, it doesn't seem to be going in the right direction to me - so it's hard to see how this could contribute a large proportion of $100bn."

The carbon market will burgeon if a comprehensive global deal on emissions is agreed - but observers in Tianjin are not optimistic that will happen in the next few years, if at all.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2429 of 3039
http://www.fco.gov.uk/google-earth-4degrees.kml

This will open in Google Earth. Very cool tool and extremely well put together. A must see for everyone.
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #2430 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormhole View Post

http://www.fco.gov.uk/google-earth-4degrees.kml

This will open in Google Earth. Very cool tool and extremely well put together. A must see for everyone.

Won't work on iPhone.
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #2431 of 3039


Quote:
TIANJIN, China Modest progress at U.N. climate talks Saturday was overshadowed by a continuing deadlock between China and the United States, clouding prospects for a major climate conference in Mexico in less than two months' time.

Marred by an atmosphere of mistrust, negotiations have made limited headway as the world's two largest emitters of greenhouse gases blamed each other for holding up talks.

Chief U.S. negotiator Jonathan Pershing said he was disappointed by the resistance of China and other developing nations to a major issue: allowing the monitoring and verification of their efforts to curb the greenhouse gas emissions that are blamed for global warming.

Quote:
"We have made very little progress on the key issue that confronts us," he said. "These elements are a part of the deal. The lack of progress on these gives us concern about the prospects for Cancun."

Meanwhile his Chinese counterpart, Su Wei, hit back, charging developed countries with failing to commit to substantial reductions in carbon emissions while making unfair demands of developing nations. He accused the U.S. of using the transparency issue to avoid its own responsibilities to cut emissions and provide financing and technology to poor countries.

Quote:
"After five years of negotiation, we have seen slow or no progress. The developed countries are trying every means possible to avoid discussion of the essential issue that is emission reductions," he said.

Delegates from more than 150 nations have been negotiating in China's northeastern city of Tianjin for the past week, working to lay the groundwork for the meeting in Mexico that starts Nov. 29.

The U.N. talks aim to secure a binding deal to curb greenhouse gases that cause global warming, but countries disagree on how to split the burden of emission cuts and how to verify them. The talks are intended to find a replacement for the Kyoto Protocol, which legally mandated modest emissions reductions and expires in 2012.

Since a binding global deal is largely out of reach for this year's meeting, negotiators have been focusing on less contentious initiatives that can lay the foundation for a legal framework that could be approved later, possibly in South Africa in 2011.

Scientists have warned that global warming could lead to widespread drought, floods, higher sea levels and worsening storms. Even a 3.6-degree-Fahrenheit (2-degree-Celsius) temperature rise could subject up to 2 billion people to water shortages by 2050, a U.N. panel has said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101009/...hpbmFibGFtZQ--
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2432 of 3039


By TINI TRAN, Associated Press Writer Fri Oct 8, 11:15 pm ET

Quote:
TIANJIN, China As the world's biggest greenhouse gas producer, China was widely seen as an obstacle in the Copenhagen climate summit last year. But while negotiations inched forward, Beijing poured $34.6 billion into clean energy in 2009, nearly double the U.S. investment.

Now, with the Asian giant hosting meetings this week ahead of the next major climate conference in Cancun, China has seized the high ground, touting its green credentials publicly and even lecturing rich nations.

Its roaring economy has made China the world's largest energy user and emitter of the greenhouse gases blamed for global warming. But its broad measures to tackle climate change, including pledges to slow its carbon emissions and huge investments in clean energy, have boosted its standing during climate talks, say environmental groups.

Quote:
"China has a lot of domestic imperatives to take action on clean energy and energy efficiency. But these actions have put them in an advantageous position in these negotiations,"

said Ailun Yang, head of climate and energy at Greenpeace China.

Quote:
Casting a shadow over the talks has been the failure of the United States to enact domestic climate legislation to cap emissions of carbon dioxide, the chief greenhouse gas. With leadership lagging in the U.N. climate process, China is emerging as a key player.

Using its platform as a first-time host, China raised the profile of its efforts to curb emissions. Chinese officials rolled out multiple press conferences to lay out the domestic steps it has taken, highlighting its commitment to climate change.

Taking a more assertive tone during this week's meetings, the country's top climate envoy, Xie Zhenhua, criticized the United States and other developed countries for failing to make more substantial emission cuts, while making unfair demands from developing economies over emissions and transparency. The meetings end Saturday.

Xie criticized the U.S. for refusing to provide financing and technology to poor countries while being unwilling to curb its own emissions, calling it "quite unacceptable."

Quote:
China has pledged to slow the growth of its emissions, cutting carbon intensity emissions per unit of GDP by 40 to 45 percent by 2020. Thousands of outdated and heavily polluting power plants have been shuttered in the past five years.

Nationwide efforts have also been made to reach the goal of improving energy efficiency by 20 percent between 2005 to 2010 with well-publicized blackouts across factories, steel mills and even shopping areas and homes in recent months.

China plowed $34.6 billion into investment and financing for clean energy in 2009 nearly double the $18.6 billion spent by the U.S. and about a quarter of the global total invested, according to a report by the Pew Charitable Trusts.

It surpassed the U.S. last year as the biggest clean power market and is rapidly becoming a world leader in renewable energy sources, including solar, wind and hydropower, setting a national goal of using 15 percent alternative fuels by 2020.

Quote:
"They think that there's a clean energy industrial revolution happening and they want to be part of that,"

said Deborah Seligsohn, a senior adviser to the Washington, D.C.-based World Resources Institute.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101009/...luYWhpZ2hsaWc-
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2433 of 3039
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2434 of 3039
yes I want oil genocide.
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yes I want oil genocide.
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post #2435 of 3039
Thread Starter 

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #2436 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Interview with Climatologist Dr. Tim Ball

Comment from your source:

Quote:
Rob says: October 11, 2010 at 6:03 am
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2006...all_sue_me.php

Whatever one may feel about Tim Balls denial of climate change science, newspapers ought to report factual summaries of authors credentials. You note that he was the first Climatology PhD in Canada and worked as a Professor of Climatology at the University of Winnipeg for 28 years. Ball received a PhD in Geography in the UK in 1982, on a topic in historical climatology. Canada already had PhDs in climatology, and it is important to recognize them and their research. Examples include Kenneth Hare, a well-respected Professor at McGill, who received his PhD in 1950, also in the UK. Climatologist Andre Robert (PhD from McGill, 1965) conducted research that laid the groundwork in atmospheric models and climate. Timothy Oke, a leader in the study of urban climate, received his PhD from McMaster in 1967. According to Balls website, he was not a climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg for 28 years. And how could he have? He did not even have an entry-level PhD until 1983, that would allow even Assistant Professor status. During much of the 28 years cited, he was a junior Lecturer who rarely published, and then spent 8 years as a geography professor. His work does not show any evidence of research regarding climate and atmosphere and the few papers he has published concern other matters. There are great gains to be made in science from conjectures and refutations, but sometimes denial is nothing more than denial.

This is not a believable man.

Quote:
Ball is a Canadian climate change skeptic and was previously a "scientific advisor" to the oil industry-backed organization, Friends of Science.[4] Ball is a member of the Board of Research Advisors of the Frontier Centre for Public Policy, a Canadian free-market think tank which is predominantly funded by foundations and corporations.

Quote:
Ball has has even argued that climate change and global warming would be good for us. "A warmer Canada would improve our lives in these and other ways too numerous to list. Global warming? Let's hope so," he wrote in June 2006.

In January 2007 in a column on the Canadian website, Straight.com, Mitchell Anderson wrote of Ball that "Over the past five years, he has published no less than 39 opinion pieces and 32 letters to the editor in 24 Canadian newspapers. Fifty of these pieces ran in papers owned by CanWest MediaWorks. These efforts totalled an incredible 44,500 words."

Among his unorthodox views, published as recently as last month in the Calgary Sun:
Global temperatures have declined since 1998 in direct contradiction to computer models on which the Kyoto Accord is based.

Ice-core records show that temperature rises before CO2 rises, not because of it.
Evidence is mounting that pre-industrial levels of CO2 may have been much higher than the 280 parts per million assumed by environmentalists to have existed at that time.
New research shows that changes in the energy output of the sun account for most of the recent warming and cooling of our planet.

The primary evidence of human influence on climate, the famous 'hockey stick' temperature-trends graph of climatologist Michael Mann, has been debunked as manipulated and wrong."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Tim_Ball

Quote:
Dr. Ball, it is claimed [5], was once listed as a consultant to the Friends of Science, a Canadian anti-Kyoto group, which receives about 1/3rd of their funding came from oil industry investors, or about $35,000 a year [3]. Similarly, the funding of Dr. Ball's NRSP does not disclose it's funding and is suspected of being funded by Fossil Fuel energy companies. (See Fossil Fuel Funding.)

Further, it is claimed that Dr. Ball falsely declares himself to be the first or one of the first Ph.D.s in Climatology in Canada or in the world. These claims certainly abound [2], though noticeably not on his bio for his current job at the NRSP [1]. He certainly does have a Ph.D. in climatology, dated 26 October 1983 [6]. Examples given of previous Canadian Climatology Ph.D.s include
Kenneth Hare, a well-respected Professor at McGill, who received his Ph.D. in 1950, also in the UK.

Climatologist Andre Robert (Ph.D. from McGill, 1965), who pioneered computer climate modeling.
Timothy Oke, a leader in the study of urban climate, received his Ph.D. from McMaster in 1967.
I have not personally verified these scientists' Ph.D. dates and national citizenships. It seems reasonable, however, that Tim Ball was not the first Canadian Climatology Doctorate. The phrase "one of the first" is sufficiently subjective as to remain possible.

There is also a dispute over the length of his employment as a professor of climatology. He received his Ph.D. in 1983 and retired in 1996 [5], suggesting a professorship of 13 years. However, he has claimed to be a professor of climatology for 32 years [9]. I can find no verification of his exact occupation from 1964 to 1983. The University of Winnipeg has no information on Tim Ball on their website, and the Internet Archive's records only extend back to 1997, the year after Dr. Ball's retirement. Further investigation is needed.

Dr. Ball has been inaccurately said to have worked in the University of Winnipeg's Department of Climatology [7], but this is inaccurate. He taught climatology in the Department of Geology at that university [1,2]. U of Winnipeg has no Department of Climatology listed on their website.

http://gwd.wikispaces.com/Tim+Ball
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2437 of 3039
Thread Starter 
Dr. Ball has already been attacked in this thread, FineTunes. You're late to the game.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2438 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Dr. Ball has already been attacked in this thread, FineTunes. You're late to the game.

If you want to go back and find out where. There are about 2,436 replies and 61 pages. Not an attack, just showing that there are reasons to question his findings and not to accept all that he says as gospel.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #2439 of 3039
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FineTunes View Post

If you want to go back and find out where. There are about 2,436 replies and 61 pages. Not an attack, just showing that there are reasons to question his findings and not to accept all that he says as gospel.

I find it interesting that none of the information you posted really addresses anything Dr. Ball says.

It is an attempt to discredit and smear the man to avoid discussion of his points. I doubt you watched the interview.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #2440 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I find it interesting that none of the information you posted really addresses anything Dr. Ball says.

It is an attempt to discredit and smear the man to avoid discussion of his points. I doubt you watched the interview.

Quote:
It's worth noting that Dr. Andrew Weaver, who is the Canada Research Chair in Climate Modelling and Analysis and whose models is one of the best in the world, works and teaches at UVic and employs some of his students to help run his models. If Tim Ball wanted to make up information about what is considered in computer models, he was doing it in the wrong venue.

Ball said many other silly things during the course of the "lecture." And many things that have previously been proved untrue. For instance, he said that it is "simply not true" that he has been paid by oil companies, regardless that time and again, people have tracked the source of his income to oil and gas companies or energy industry lobby groups.

But the most offensive moments come when Ball accuses OTHER people of irresponsibility.

"Dont get me wrong, if you want to play with your models in the lab, thats fine. But you have a scientific responsibility which I happen to think youre not fulfilling. But when you go public with your models and say your model works and you have to base your whole policy for the world on this, thats a whole different responsibility."

So, Tim Ball thinks it's okay to make public policy on the basis of uninformed criticism of models he has never studied. He argues that 17th century paintings are all the evidence he needs to demonstrate that current warming is natural and not a problem. He says things that are not true and then refuses to acknowledge his error when corrected. And he yet he feels confident to criticize the ethics of the best scientists currently working in the field.

http://www.desmogblog.com/tim-ball-c...battered-facts


Think-tanks take oil money and use it to fund climate deniers

ExxonMobil cash supported concerted campaign to undermine case for man-made warming
By Jonathan Owen and Paul Bignell
Quote:
An orchestrated campaign is being waged against climate change science to undermine public acceptance of man-made global warming, environment experts claimed last night.
The attack against scientists supportive of the idea of man-made climate change has grown in ferocity since the leak of thousands of documents on the subject from the University of East Anglia (UEA) on the eve of the Copenhagen climate summit last December.
Free-market, anti-climate change think-tanks such as the Atlas Economic Research Foundation in the US and the International Policy Network in the UK have received grants totalling hundreds of thousands of pounds from the multinational energy company ExxonMobil. Both organisations have funded international seminars pulling together climate change deniers from across the globe.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...s-1891747.html
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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