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Climategate - Page 3

post #81 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Suffering from a little denial yourself I see.



The claim has never been in any of thse FOI requests that the information was protected as IP, or that release was contrary to the procedures of the organization, body or country associated with it. Rather the opposite was true and the scientists in question were discussing how they could thwart such requests. The claim was made that they data would be deleted before being shared.



Clearly you haven't read any of these emails.



That is why these emails are troubling because they outline clear actions to stop these traits..



When I do and you ask for my data to review and I send out a series of emails noting how I'm going to ignore your request and attempt to discredit you rather than deal with you, will you have any condemnations for me or would you prefer to just be classified a denier?



Apparently you are unaware that this is exactly what the FOI's were about and were the emails discuss how to stop this process.



What if I just decide to have me and several other scientists threaten journals that accept contrary research by threatening not to publish to them and also threatening to wage a campaign to damage their credentials. Would that be science?



Clearly this is about folks taking human and political considerations and injecting them into science.

As for the rest, no one cares about your dogmatic ad-homs repeated to avoid thinking.

I can see that you can at least read, that's something going for you.

Other than that you do not have any experience in such matters. In other words you are making stuff up in your own mind. Can't help you there.

Therefore, you opinion, created in it's own vacuum, is fully null and void.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #82 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

[CENTER] Michael Crichton writes fiction.

Apparently so do some climate scientists.
post #83 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I do have the give the "climate change" promoters credit for something...they have been able to reduce things to empty statements like the one above that have the appearance of having meaningful content.

Hey, look above, someone strung together a bunch of random words that are utterly meaningless.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #84 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Apparently so do some climate scientists.

We know you do, that's for sure.
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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post #85 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I'd like you to discuss the one trumptman posted above.

I won't debate anything that involves facts with that poster. There's absolutely no point.

I will say, though, on that email he posted, that "the two MMs" are regarded as a pair of dickheads in climatology circles. They aren't interested in science, only bending it to a fucked up and dangerous political agenda, that of climate change denial. They've been busted and debunked repeatedly.

So while I can't say that it was totally cool of the UEA climatologists to do what they did, the mitigating circumstances are that they weren't denying their peers data, but a pair of politically-motivated climate hacks who want to make their job impossible.

And even so, even taking that into account, that email provides absolutely no evidence that the data itself has been manipulated. It does nothing to change the data, or the evidence in favour of climate change.

If you can see where it does, please point it out to me. It isn't there.

If you can't point it out, I'm perfectly willing to continue discussing other emails in this 'Climategate' thread about scandalous emails.
post #86 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

Let's hear from the environmental and political activist George Monbiot...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ate-scientists


Or how 'bout Myron Ebell, the Director of Global Warming and International Environmental Policy at the Competitive Enterprise Institute...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...112004093.html


And Judith Curry, a climatologist at the Georgia Institute of Technology? Here's what she has to say...
http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7826#more-7826


Last August, CRU stated they "lost" the original data used that led to the conclusions of the IPCC. Now we learn that some there would delete data before allowing it to be reviewed.

Yes, that's great and powerful Oz speaking, the "man behind the curtain" who should be ignored. Just a man, fallible, not imposing at all. Oz, who speaks in stentorian tones worthy of one who speaks for "THE SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS!" says screw peer review and ignore the man behind the curtain.

"Climate change" as a political topic is a fraud. Climate change as the changes the world has experienced since the beginning, the ever variable movement between glacial and interglacial cycles, is and always has been present since the world was formed, even before there were humans to complain about the process.

No surprises here.

Myron Ebell from a Libertarian thinktank funded by the likes of ExxonMobil and Ford. No bias there. LOL! ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competi...rise_Institute


And your third quote from Steve McIntyre of Climate Audit who works and has done nearly all his life for mineral exploration companies- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_McIntyre

George Monbiot, from the Guardian IMO has stated an opinion that may well not be borne out by the facts. I don't know how he is so sure (or even if he is) of his conclusions but nonetheless he believes that between 3 or 4 scientists out of over a thousand have acted improperly-

"But do these revelations justify the sceptics' claims that this is "the final nail in the coffin" of global warming theory? Not at all. They damage the credibility of three or four scientists. They raise questions about the integrity of one or perhaps two out of several hundred lines of evidence."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ate-scientists

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #87 of 3039
I thought it would be fun to do a scientific survey of franksargent's "greatest hits" (at least from this thread:

Quote:
But just to humor you, have you ever worked for the government as either an employee or contractor?

Do you have any firsthand knowledge of IP and FOI issues in that regard?

I'm guessing no and no for anyone who has ever posted in PO, excluding myself, then the answers would be yes and yes, of course.


Quote:
Don't you just love the blog-o-smear?

Of Birthers and Denialers.


Quote:
You bring on the condescension yourself, because you lack the basic toolkit to understand the science as it exists in the well respected peer reviewed climate science literature.

You are at fault for not wanting to understand even the basics of the science.

You make unfounded accusations based on your basis lack of understanding of the physical processes involved.

You clearly are not schooled in the scientific method, of that there can be absolutely no doubt (p = 0).

PO has neven been a place to have a serious discussion of the science, or of any science for that matter. AFAIK there are no researchers or scientists who post in PO, except for myself.

And you know what? I don't like talking to the wall of scientific ignorance that clearly exists in PO.

Your drive by thread and drive by posts clearly speak to this basic fact of PO ignorance on all matters scientific.


Quote:
Well, nothing you've ever posted suggests that you have worked for the government as a researcher or a scientist, if fact, not even a researcher or scientist of any kind, as shown from all the blog-o-smear posts you only seem to link to.


Quote:
No meaningful content, no comment.


Quote:
You would need to understand the letter of the law with respect to IP and FOI restrictions that apply across multiple organizations that are legally binding.

Clearly something you have had no experience with, or expertise in.


Quote:
Fortunately, for the most part, contrarians, also known as Denialers, do not engage in peer reviewed science, they make accusations, and ask endless questions of those actually doing the science.

No amount of data/code will satisfy these Denialers, ever, for that is their only porpose, harassment for the sake of harassment. See Birthers.


Quote:
If you had the slightest idea of what you were talking about or the subject matter or it's context, I'd reply in kind.


Quote:
blog-o-smear


Quote:
Other than that you do not have any experience in such matters. In other words you are making stuff up in your own mind. Can't help you there.

Therefore, you opinion, created in it's own vacuum, is fully null and void.


Quote:
Hey, look above, someone strung together a bunch of random words that are utterly meaningless.


So much fun.
post #88 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Myron Ebell from a Libertarian thinktank funded by the likes of ExxonMobil and Ford. No bias there. LOL! ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competi...rise_Institute

And your third quote from Steve McIntyre of Climate Audit who works and has done nearly all his life for mineral exploration companies- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_McIntyre

It's interesting that the climate change faithful always go after the person rather than the claims.

Someone somewhere said something about that being an implicit admission of failure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

No surprises here.

Yep.
post #89 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Strawman.

If you had the slightest idea of what you were talking about or the subject matter or it's context, I'd reply in kind.

I'm going to share with you a few helpful points about English since it appears you are not a native speaker of the language. Please understand that these are meant to improve communication.

When you say you you aren't going to reply to someone in a reply, that counts as a reply.

Likewise when you say no content, no reply in a reply, that counts as a reply as well.

You can even see your little post counter on the left hand of the screen go up.

Hope this helps you in the future and don't worry. There is another user here Jimmac, who kept replying to posters that he was ignoring them. This technology stuff gets hard for you older folks and so I'm always happy to help out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

[center]blog-o-smear[/center]

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I can see that you can at least read, that's something going for you.

Other than that you do not have any experience in such matters. In other words you are making stuff up in your own mind. Can't help you there.

Therefore, you opinion, created in it's own vacuum, is fully null and void.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Hey, look above, someone strung together a bunch of random words that are utterly meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

We know you do, that's for sure.

Also just a second little bit information about the American system. It is not based on a caste system, royalty, nor any type of honor or elder hierarchy system. Simply sending someone away or stridently declaring they are beneath you fails to convince them they are wrong. You have to actually engage and reason with them. On many western forums such as these, the above actions are labeled as "trolling" and reflect someone who wants to antagonize rather than discuss.

Just some more helpful information for you to process. Good luck!

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #90 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

It's interesting that the climate change faithful always go after the person rather than the claims.

Someone somewhere said something about that being an implicit admission of failure.




Yep.

The "CC faithful" (faithful definitely not being the word I would use) do not "always go after the person rather than the claims". The false claims are exposed and their associations are pointed out so that you can understand why they're spouting the lies and misleading rubbish.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #91 of 3039
Keep it up, Frank.

You'll find people turn to ad-homs out of frustration.

(I don't. I should say that personally I do it out of contempt. But they're attacking you because they have nothing else. You know your shit. They don't.)
post #92 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Keep it up, Frank.

You'll find people turn to ad-homs out of frustration.

It seems the ad-homs are coming from frank at this point.
post #93 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The "CC faithful" (faithful definitely not being the word I would use) do not "always go after the person rather than the claims". The false claims are exposed and their associations are pointed out so that you can understand why they're spouting the lies and misleading rubbish.

The Wall Street Journal has an opinion on Sandon's "false claims"

The Toronto Sun picks up the story as well.

The conservative-leaning National Post follows up their previous reporting with quotes from "Britain's Al Gore", who is understandably shaken by the obvious scandal that sargent and mumbo are pretending doesn't exist.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #94 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

The "CC faithful" (faithful definitely not being the word I would use) do not "always go after the person rather than the claims". The false claims are exposed and their associations are pointed out so that you can understand why they're spouting the lies and misleading rubbish.

But you haven't "exposed" or proven any claims false. You simply pointed out associations that imply bias and tried to get away with a "guilt by association" fallacy.
post #95 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

It seems the ad-homs are coming from frank at this point.

You probably missed trumptman's provocative, condescending and completely off-topic post before yours, dedicated to attacking frank without addressing the subject of the the thread. You can scroll up a post or two to read it. It's really nasty.

Anyway. Glad to see you. I addressed the email you asked me to. Where's your response?
post #96 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You probably missed trumptman's provocative, condescending and completely off-topic post before yours, dedicated to attacking frank without addressing the subject of the the thread. You can scroll up a post or two to read it. It's really nasty.

I must have missed in the midst of all of frank's condescending posts.
post #97 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

The Wall Street Journal has an opinion on Sandon's "false claims"

The Toronto Sun picks up the story as well.

The conservative-leaning National Post follows up their previous reporting with quotes from "Britain's Al Gore", who is understandably shaken by the obvious scandal that sargent and mumbo are pretending doesn't exist.

What a lot of "Hide the decline" BS. Did you read the RealClimate link I posted and decide to completely ignore it?

Yep....because it suits you to try and make hay out of BS

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #98 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I must have missed in the midst of all of frank's condescending posts.

That must be it.

Now; you asked me to address the email another poster quoted, and I did, so where's your response?
post #99 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

No surprises here.

Myron Ebell from a Libertarian thinktank funded by the likes of ExxonMobil and Ford. No bias there. LOL! ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competi...rise_Institute


And your third quote from Steve McIntyre of Climate Audit who works and has done nearly all his life for mineral exploration companies- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_McIntyre

George Monbiot, from the Guardian IMO has stated an opinion that may well not be borne out by the facts. I don't know how he is so sure (or even if he is) of his conclusions but nonetheless he believes that between 3 or 4 scientists out of over a thousand have acted improperly-

"But do these revelations justify the sceptics' claims that this is "the final nail in the coffin" of global warming theory? Not at all. They damage the credibility of three or four scientists. They raise questions about the integrity of one or perhaps two out of several hundred lines of evidence."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ate-scientists

I didn't quote Steve McIntyre and the "credibility of three or four scientists" was good enough to influence the IPCC, which wrote a report that was good enough to influence the economic policies of nations...

You're saying that someone who'll withhold information, admit they'll perform character assassination to forward their agenda, and delete information rather than allow it to be reviewed provides people with more credibility than accepting money from a mineral exploration company to perform work for them...

Speaks volumes about your agenda, Hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Yep....because it suits you to try and make hay out of BS

Irony, thy name is Hands.
post #100 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Now; you asked me to address the email another poster quoted, and I did, so where's your response?

I don't have one. I'm just interested in seeing your apologetics on the subject.
post #101 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

It seems the ad-homs are coming from frank at this point.

Oh he won't be able to see that though. He thinks Jon Stewart "taking someone down" is reasoning. Hell he thinks mockery is reasoning.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #102 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

But you haven't "exposed" or proven any claims false. You simply pointed out associations that imply bias and tried to get away with a "guilt by association" fallacy.

Wrong! Did you read the thread?

Try reading the RealClimate link. Read franksargents quotes. You guys are treading on ground you don't know much at all about and hurling accusations because it makes you feel like it'll advance your cause of attacking a global commy elite hellbent on destroying America and annihilating and enslaving billions of people whilst there at it. In fact it just goes to show how desperate you are and how desperate you are for a vote against Democrats too. It's so blatant and IMO immoral. It's an approach that a true American would reject.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #103 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Wrong! Did you read the thread?

Try reading the RealClimate link. Read franksargents quotes. You guys are treading on ground you don't know much at all about and hurling accusations because it makes you feel like it'll advance your cause of attacking a global commy elite hellbent on destroying America and annihilating and enslaving billions of people whilst there at it. In fact it just goes to show how desperate you are and how desperate you are for a vote against Democrats too. It's so blatant and IMO immoral. It's an approach that a true American would reject.

How nice. Let's see here...you just called me (and others, I presume)...who don't agree with the "climate change gospel"...ignorant, accusatory, desperate, immoral and un-American. All in one brief paragraph. You probably can do that more concisely with some practice.
post #104 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I don't have one. I'm just interested in seeing your apologetics on the subject.

Fine.

So involuntary_serf doesn't know why these emails are 'scandalous'.

Is there anyone here in the thread called 'Climategate' willing to discuss the emails which the thread's supposed to be about?
post #105 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Fine.

So involuntary_serf doesn't know why these emails are 'scandalous'.

Ummm...please don't put words into my mouth.
post #106 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Ummm...please don't put words into my mouth.

He has no choice. You aren't the type of person who thinks that ignoring scientific ethics because two guys are "known dickheads" is an appropriate response so he has to create a strawman to knock down instead.

I mean really, if you and I could just note that there were two dickheads out there not engaging in any reasoning and thus not have to offer in facts or arguments in opposition to them just because of who they are, then the thread would already be done.

As it is, the thread is done because no one can defend what has been done here. They can dismiss the people noting it, ad-hom the sources, etc but it cannot be defended.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #107 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

How nice. Let's see here...you just called me (and others, I presume)...who don't agree with the "climate change gospel"...ignorant, accusatory, desperate, immoral and un-American. All in one brief paragraph. You probably can do that more concisely with some practice.

I enjoyed your witty reply but aren't you going to address any of the links and quotes that explain how the emails have been taken out of context to sway public opinion against any action to prevent millions of deaths and worldwide suffering on a massive scale. My guess is you're not because you've ignored them up to this point.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #108 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I enjoyed your witty reply but aren't you going to address any of the links and quotes that explain how the emails have been taken out of context to sway public opinion against any action to prevent millions of deaths and worldwide suffering on a massive scale. My guess is you're not because you've ignored them up to this point.

Wait...wait...wait.... I've got a cause that I believe will cause BILLIONS of deaths and universal suffering on a scale so large as to make yours look like a grain of sand. You've ignored it up to this point and probably don't even know what it is despite all the reading you've done here.

How badly do I get to treat you now?

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #109 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I enjoyed your witty reply but aren't you going to address any of the links and quotes that explain how the emails have been taken out of context to sway public opinion against any action to prevent millions of deaths and worldwide suffering on a massive scale. My guess is you're not because you've ignored them up to this point.

My guess is that you're question begging.

I'm not convinced that "climate change" is the catastrophe it has been made out to be.

So, frankly, if this "climategate" thing reduces the likelihood of governments taking action that is not only unnecessary but will also likely destroy or diminish the lives of millions or billions of people, then fine.
post #110 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

Ummm...please don't put words into my mouth.

My apologies, serf. When I asked you for your response and you said

Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I don't have one. I'm just interested in seeing your apologetics on the subject.

I thought you meant that you really didn't have a response. Again, please accept my apologies.

I'm very keen to hear your response to the post I made.

You asked me to address it, and I did. If you have a response, please post it. I'm very willing to discuss it.

This thread absolutely isn't done. I'm here, willing to discuss these emails. You are too? Great. Let's do it.
post #111 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

My apologies, serf. When I asked you for your response and you said



I thought you meant that you really didn't have a response. Again, please accept my apologies.

I'm very keen to hear your response to the post I made.

You asked me to address it, and I did. If you have a response, please post it. I'm very willing to discuss it.

This thread absolutely isn't done. I'm here, willing to discuss these emails. You are too? Great. Let's do it.

You seriously call that addressing it? Noting those two guys are "dickheads" is what you call an actual attempt at addressing the email?!?

Wow. That is amazing.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #112 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

My apologies, serf. When I asked you for your response and you said



I thought you meant that you really didn't have a response. Again, please accept my apologies.

I'm very keen to hear your response to the post I made.

You asked me to address it, and I did. If you have a response, please post it. I'm very willing to discuss it.

This thread absolutely isn't done. I'm here, willing to discuss these emails. You are too? Great. Let's do it.

I'll accept your apology if you admit to either faulty reasoning or faulty reading comprehension.

I'll put this simply for you:

The statement "I don't have a response to your claims." is not equivalent to "I don't know why X is viewed as such-and-such."

Mkay?
post #113 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taskiss View Post

I didn't quote Steve McIntyre and the "credibility of three or four scientists" was good enough to influence the IPCC, which wrote a report that was good enough to influence the economic policies of nations...

You're saying that someone who'll withhold information, admit they'll perform character assassination to forward their agenda, and delete information rather than allow it to be reviewed provides people with more credibility than accepting money from a mineral exploration company to perform work for them...

Speaks volumes about your agenda, Hands.Irony, thy name is Hands.

McIntyre's Climate Audit is where you linked to Judith Curry's article. No doubt it was posted because it doesn't paint an altogether rosy picture of the IPCC and it gives some credibility to some of the skeptics out there. I have no problem with that, indeed I encourage some back and forth, however as she notes the IPCC and other groups and individuals have had very limited patience in dealing with the onslaught of often corporately funded attacks. She thinks they've taken that too far and become too cut off. She may well be right but it's understandable to say the least.

As to your irony bashing, I can't say I'm surprised that you would already be leaping to describe the emails as evidence that the scientists are as corrupt and deceitful as the skeptics and corporations that funded them.

TaskIRONYss. You can't do that with Hands Sandon, because there's no i in Hands Sandon. LOL!

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #114 of 3039
trumpt if your out there waiting on a reply from me, don't, because I haven't read your reply and haven't read much of them at all for a while. I almost always skim over them, only very occasionally bothering to read more than the first sentence.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #115 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I'll accept your apology if you admit to either faulty reasoning or faulty reading comprehension.

I'll put this simply for you:

The statement "I don't have a response to your claims." is not equivalent to "I don't know why X is viewed as such-and-such."

Mkay?

Mmkay.

You don't have a response.

You asked me for comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I'd like you to discuss the one trumptman posted above.

And I gave them.

And you don't have a response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

I don't have one. I'm just interested in seeing your apologetics on the subject.

That's cool. I don't want to put words into your mouth. You have nothing to say. You're just hanging around... for shits and giggles. That's fine.

Does anyone here in the 'Climategate' thread want to engage in the emails that the thread is about?
post #116 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by involuntary_serf View Post

My guess is that you're question begging.

I'm not convinced that "climate change" is the catastrophe it has been made out to be.

So, frankly, if this "climategate" thing reduces the likelihood of governments taking action that is not only unnecessary but will also likely destroy or diminish the lives of millions or billions of people, then fine.

I wasn't "question begging" and just for the record I don't consider myself a "CC faithful" either. LOL.

I too am worried about what kinds of policies are going to be put in place to combat CC. I too am skeptical about there effectiveness and am troubled at the harm they could cause, including radically denying people their liberties on a global scale. However, I believe the threat, like you know, is real and there are important and difficult sacrifices that will have to be made. Your stance is much easier, ie there's no problem (at least not a man made one) it's a craftily concocted lie and all we have to do is put an end to the policies that stem from AGW.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

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post #117 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I wasn't "question begging"


Actually, when you say something like:

Quote:
any action to prevent millions of deaths and worldwide suffering on a massive scale

You are begging the question (aka assuming the point) on two levels. First that millions of deaths are a real possibility as a result of climate change, and also that the actions being proposed would forestall those presumed deaths.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I too am worried about what kinds of policies are going to be put in place to combat CC. I too am skeptical about there effectiveness and am troubled at the harm they could cause, including radically denying people their liberties on a global scale.

I'm glad to hear that. Too many people are blindly going along the "we gotta some sumthin'!" path


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

However, I believe the threat, like you know, is real and there are important and difficult sacrifices that will have to be made.

And I don't believe the threat is real or credible.
post #118 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

I wasn't "question begging" and just for the record I don't consider myself a "CC faithful" either. LOL.

I too am worried about what kinds of policies are going to be put in place to combat CC. I too am skeptical about there effectiveness and am troubled at the harm they could cause, including radically denying people their liberties on a global scale. However, I believe the threat, like you know, is real and there are important and difficult sacrifices that will have to be made. Your stance is much easier, ie there's no problem (at least not a man made one) it's a craftily concocted lie and all we have to do is put an end to the policies that stem from AGW.

You know what, I don't believe in climate change, and will not do anything for the sake of that argument. However, that being said, I do believe in recycling, using renewable energy, and reducing our reliance on foreign oil. Planting trees is good, and sustainable items are worth investing in. Does it matter that I do not believe the world is going to overheat and die? Not really, when you consider the end result is the same as far as my actions. I don't have to buy your world view to get there. I think the main difference I have with you is I believe you should not force it on others, show them how it is better and let them come along.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #119 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

You know what, I don't believe in climate change, and will not do anything for the sake of that argument. However, that being said, I do believe in recycling, using renewable energy, and reducing our reliance on foreign oil. Planting trees is good, and sustainable items are worth investing in. Does it matter that I do not believe the world is going to overheat and die? Not really, when you consider the end result is the same as far as my actions. I don't have to buy your world view to get there. I think the main difference I have with you is I believe you should not force it on others, show them how it is better and let them come along.

What you've described is pretty much how things are currently working on a global level. The EU wants a 30% reduction in carbon emissions the US a 17% reduction and on. Countries negotiate with each other to tackle the problem as they see fit and are not obliged as such to do anything. They sign up to treaties or they don't. There is of course huge pressure put on nations to act in one way or another and that applies to businesses and individuals too. Laws defining want you can and can't buy, can and can't do and places where you can and can't go are all not that far off, and to some extent already here. Citizens do though, for the most part (Europe will eventually I'm sure be a democracy again, but only once it has consolidated it's power) vote for their law makers putting some level of responsibility on the citizens to set boundaries.

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply

"If your enemies cannot find a flaw in your reasoning, they will find it in your reputation".

~ William Hazlitt

Reply
post #120 of 3039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

What you've described is pretty much how things are currently working on a global level. The EU wants a 30% reduction in carbon emissions the US a 17% reduction and on. Countries negotiate with each other to tackle the problem as they see fit and are not obliged as such to do anything. They sign up to treaties or they don't. There is of course huge pressure put on nations to act in one way or another and that applies to businesses and individuals too. Laws defining want you can and can't buy, can and can't do and places where you can and can't go are all not that far off, and to some extent already here. Citizens do though, for the most part (Europe will eventually I'm sure be a democracy again, but only once it has consolidated it's power) vote for their law makers putting some level of responsibility on the citizens to set boundaries.

Then why the big concern? If things are already progressing, why the gigantic panic attack?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
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