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Is Salon.com Promoting Kiddy-Porn? - Page 2

post #41 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by alcimedes:
<strong>he he, i knew i made that last post too long. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I appreciate the reasoned discussion you made, and that you made them without the personal attacks to say that I am somehow a pervert because I don't agree with your view. That seems to be the popular argument here today.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #42 of 88
he he, just like i don't understand some of your arguments, i also don't understand attacking a person because you don't like what they say.

still waiting for a reply though, unless you really think that you've already answered what i said. in which case i'll have to go reread your post for a third time.
post #43 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by alcimedes:

what you are saying is that the criteria you use to judge whether or not someone is a woman or a girl are completely unbased on any specific criteria. Everyone falls into the same category across the board, no matter what. (with a few exceptions for the mentally deficient). so you base your view of adulthood on a strictly legal basis.

what do you think about countries where the legal age of adulthood is under 18? or over 18? if these models are photographed where 16 is an adult, are the images OK then? if they were 18, but filmed in a country where you weren't legally an adult until 19, would they be OK then?

i fail to see how your criteria of "18 is ok" makes sense. it's based on U.S. law, and that's it? what if the laws change? it is riddled with holes and has no logical basis.
<hr></blockquote>
Not exactly what I said. Not everyone falls into the same category no matter what as far as those who may be ready to be married earlier on or not which was one point you made in your argument. But as far as taking a young teen and sanpping a nude picture of her to put in a book that strangers will eye either as art or as a book full of nude minors I don't feel is right. (Personally I don't like pornography either, but this is not the subject. That may help you in your own eyes understand and then paste a new label on me that way.) What I am saying is that there has to be a way to cut off or draw a line in the sand, and the way that I personally have chosen is the age factor. Pre 18 is legally a minor child and therefore not right to sell nude pictures of to people. parents permission or not.

Going further off of your statment about laws and ages and other countries, if it is ok in some countries for kiddie porn (not what I am saying this is but heck, everyone else had their chance to phenominalize things, now its my turn) to be sold to people and that form of pronography was only OK if the parents gave permission and the child was ok with it would you feel it was a problem. Why or why not?

[quote]
if you can explain to me the fundamental difference between a girl one day before, and one day after her 18th birthday that makes her an adult, i'd love to hear it. even our own court system has a hard time defining where adulthood sets in.
<hr></blockquote>
You know very well that there is no one day where some one becomes an adult. It is a process and there are plenty of 20 somethings out there that have no business calling themselves adults and some 14 year olds that could run a household and hold down a job with no problems. It is more dependant on the person than the age. Teh eage factor was put into place though for the sake of universality (not sure if this is really the word I am looking for) to give a general age at which a person is no longer a child and becomes responsible for their own actions. Which leads us to you next question...

[quote]
kids have been tried for murder as adults as young as 13 (perhaps lower, i don't recall offhand), are we to thefore say some girls could be considered adults at 13 as well? are kids only adult-like in our legal system when they've done something wrong? i don't get the whole 18 is ok bit.
<hr></blockquote>
This is a whole other topic in some respects but I can see your tie in. How can we try a child as an adult. Part of this I think comes down to my point of some parents do not know what is best for their child and so laws were put in place that if said child breaks law A he can be tried as an adult under statute B. Because there were many cases where the chile was remanded to his/her parents authority and they did nothing to curb the sociopathic behavior and the child committed the same crime or worse becuase of it. This is a societal way of forcing responsibility for ones actions even if their parents are not willing to do so. It has its merits and its pitfalls. Once again, you are applying a semi-static ruler and saying if someone measures up to this then they are A even if it may not always be the case. Just as with the move to adulthood, if you are 18 you are an adult.

[quote]
i'll touch on this again, just for kicks. a girl could feel proud of her beauty. she could learn to not be ashamed of her body. she could have a positive self image. learn assertiveness. many benefits can come from being a model in a professional photographer's works. quite frankly, giving young women a positive self image of who they are and how they look could easily be considered a significant beneft.

along the same lines, you have yet to explain what harm comes to the model for being in the pictures. you want me to justify what good is likely to come of it, i'd like you to explain to me what harm you feel is likely to come of it.
<hr></blockquote>

That all sounds nice but the reality is that some will get the self-assertiveness and some will just devalue themselves in that if they do not show their naked selves then they are somehow holding back and not worth as much to the person who may be their future relationships down the road. Another point I made before was:

Naked children is not as bad as Hustler, but now they have that thought in their mind that since that is ok... Will all of them be that way, no. But this parent sponsored acceptance will go further towards letting them know it is ok rather than not ok...

That was bit vague now that I read it again. My basic intent here was to say that being childrent they may not be able to tell the difference between an "art" shoot and a porn shoot. Heck, not all porn magazines show the actual sex, some are just the naked body exploited. They may feel that what they are doing is the same as porn and since mommy and daddy say it is ok, shoot, "Lets go pose for Hustler, playboy and swank. It's no different." when there is a difference.

[quote]
this is your opinion. are you saying that if a handful of people look at these pictures for a sexual high, the images in and of themselves have no artistic value?

what about an artist who loves to depict feet. think someone who has a foot fetish nullifies all of the art in the pictures because they get off on those pictures of feet?

what about a women nude? (18+) is it not art if a women is nude because some men and women are sexually aroused by it? what if that wasn't the artist's intention? does the veiwer who doesn't appreciate the artistic value of a piece dictate whether or not something is art?
<hr></blockquote>
Argument for the sake of arguing. Obviously people have different things that push their buttons. Feet, necks, bellybuttons, fatness, lips, eyes, whatever. Some things just are, there is nohing wrong with them but in the eyes of some people it is just a huge turn on. So good for them they can get a thrill reading the shoe ads. Oh happy day. It is not the same as doing this with a book full of young, underage, nude females. There is not any comaprison, I will not draw that line as it does not exist.

[quote]
quite simply put, no. people wear clothes for many reasons, one of the most significant of which is to hide how they look. people tend to have an inherent shame of their bodies and how they look. a subject with clothes on represents something totally different than a subject who is nude.
<hr></blockquote>

Sorry to hear that. For me there is more to beauty than that. If you need to see their nude behind to see their true beauty then you are missing the bigger picture by a long shot. All the nudity does is add the erotic sexual undertones that only pull away from the actual beaty that many see otherwise. This is just my opinion, and you can take it or leave it, but it does not make me a bad person as you opinion does not make you a bad person. I just happen to disagree with you about what you think.

And Belle, I am not going to go down the road you are trying so hard to pave. If I have a problem with underage girls being shot nude for a photo book then that is all. There is nothing sick or perverted there, it is just my moral decision. I am not imposing it on you, I am merely telling you how I feel. For you to project your thoughts as the only right ones and anyone who disagrees:

I worry more about people who find these pictures inappropriate than the children posing. Clearly they're seeing something in these pictures most do not.

BS. Plain and simple. It is a moral choice and has nothing to do with seeing something that is not there. There is a girl, she is nude, she is underage. That is wrong by what I beleive. How does that worry you? Are morals that much of a problem for you? ( I am goading here but your assertion is really disturbing. ) To say that thsoe who are more conservative than you are the real problem is to ignore the issue I think. Sure you would not be hearing complaints about it, but even if we kept quiet about it nothing happens to these girls, or any other girls because of it. Where is this hidden danger you fear so. Be realistic if you reply.

This is probably my last post as I have better things to do than be called a pervert because I don't think a young girl should be pictured nude for everyone in the world to view. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />

-Edit to fix quotes

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #44 of 88
How many people here object to the paintings of Degas?

BTW, "erotic" is not the same as "pornographic" either.

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
post #45 of 88
Thought I'd throw in the legalities with all this...

There are very specific guidelines called the Dost Factors, they come from a 1986 case:
U.S. vs. Dost, and were later affirmed by the Ninth Circuit U.S.Court of Appeals.
The Dost factors are used to help determine if an image contains factors such as
"lascivious exhibition of the genitalia or pubic area" as referred to in
<a href="http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2256.html" target="_blank">United States Code Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 110 Section 2256</a>,
or other factors which constitute child pornography.

The Dost Factors:

The Dost factors were articulated in order to provide a more concrete test
for determining whether a visual depiction of a minor constitutes a
"lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area" under 18 U.S.C.
2256(2)(E):

1) whether the focal point of the visual depiction is on the child's
genitalia or pubic area;

2) whether the setting of the visual depiction is sexually suggestive, i.e.,
in a place or pose generally associated with sexual activity;

3) whether the child is depicted in an unnatural pose, or in inappropriate
attire, considering the age of the child;

4) whether the child is fully or partially clothed, or nude;

5) whether the visual depiction suggests sexual coyness or a willingness to
engage in sexual activity;

6) whether the visual depiction is intended or designed to elicit a sexual
response in the viewer.

636 F. Supp. at 832. The court readily admitted that this list is not
exhaustive as other factors may be relevant in particular cases.

So, in my opinion, Sturges and Hamilton's photos do not violate these factors at all (#'s 5 and 6 are a little vague though...).

To each their own. If you don't like them then don't look at them.
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post #46 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:
<strong>If you don't like them then don't look at them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If only that were all there was to it.
post #47 of 88
[quote]4) whether the child is fully or partially clothed, or nude;
<hr></blockquote>

So #4 has nothing to do with it then? Just 5 and 6?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #48 of 88
What about #3? I know _I'm_ the one with the probem. _I_ must have a sick mind for thinking this but doesn't it suggest her hands are tied behind her back? Must be me. I'm the sick-o. :confused:

I guess suggesting bondage (and rape?) of young nude girls is art? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
post #49 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>What about #3? I know _I'm_ the one with the probem. _I_ must have a sick mind for thinking this but doesn't it suggest her hands are tied behind her back? Must be me. I'm the sick-o. :confused:</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, it's you. Perv.

Seriously, though, I think this shows why this argument will never be resolved either in this thread or out in the big bad world. It's all much to subjective.

I find pictures of Conan O'Brien highly offensive, but I doubt they'll ever be banned.
[quote]<strong>I guess suggesting bondage (and rape?) of young nude girls is art? :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>
Again this is a question of what is "acceptable" to people.

As far as I'm concerned, the issue isn't the subject matter of the picture, it's who was harmed in the taking of the picture, and who could be harmed viewing the picture.
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post #50 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>
Again this is a question of what is "acceptable" to people.

As far as I'm concerned, the issue isn't the subject matter of the picture, it's who was harmed in the taking of the picture, and who could be harmed viewing the picture.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree. But that surprises no one I am sure.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #51 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>And Belle, I am not going to go down the road you are trying so hard to pave. If I have a problem with underage girls being shot nude for a photo book then that is all. There is nothing sick or perverted there, it is just my moral decision. I am not imposing it on you, I am merely telling you how I feel. For you to project your thoughts as the only right ones and anyone who disagrees:</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're right, I was being deliberately provocative, and it is a moral decision. The reason? People tried to have Sturges' exhibition shut down. Sturges, Mann, et al have been branded "perverts". People who go to see the exhibitions or buy the books branded perverts. The vast majority don't go along to be titillated, and yet many objectors see these images as "disgusting". And I most certainly wasn't "project[ing] [my] thoughts as the only right ones"! Just stating an opinion, as you are. My moral right. And here's where I have the real (personal) issue...
[quote]<strong>BS. Plain and simple. It is a moral choice and has nothing to do with seeing something that is not there. There is a girl, she is nude, she is underage. That is wrong by what I beleive. How does that worry you? Are morals that much of a problem for you? ( I am goading here but your assertion is really disturbing. ) To say that thsoe who are more conservative than you are the real problem is to ignore the issue I think. Sure you would not be hearing complaints about it, but even if we kept quiet about it nothing happens to these girls, or any other girls because of it. Where is this hidden danger you fear so. Be realistic if you reply.</strong><hr></blockquote>
See my post above. The important thing here is that the subjects of an image are not harmed, and those likely to be affected by viewing the image are not harmed.

Everyone has a right to a moral opinion, I have no objection to that.

The hidden danger I fear? Censorship.

I asked a question earlier that nobody (unless I missed it?) responded to - should we also ban books which depict teenage sexuality?

[Edit: Woah. Hold up, forgot something.

[quote]<strong>There is a girl, she is nude, she is underage.</strong><hr></blockquote>
She's a girl. No objection there. She is nude. No problem there. She is underage... hmm... underage for what, and by what standard?]

[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
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post #52 of 88
[quote]I asked a question earlier that nobody (unless I missed it?) responded to - should we also ban books which depict teenage sexuality?
<hr></blockquote>

Depict as in through words? Depict as in through pictures. What are the circumstances? There are more factors involved than your questions ask. And I cannot answer and hit all the main topics and clearly defend my point right now. Suffice it to say the answer is no. Except when it is inappropriate. Then the answer is yes. That subjective enough for you?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #53 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>Depict as in through words? Depict as in through pictures. What are the circumstances? There are more factors involved than your questions ask.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apologies. I meant specifically novels, considered to be part of the (ick) "arts".
[quote]<strong>And I cannot answer and hit all the main topics and clearly defend my point right now.<hr></blockquote></strong>
No problem. I am trying to keep my posts shorter than some people in this thread, though.
[quote]<strong>Suffice it to say the answer is no. Except when it is inappropriate. Then the answer is yes. That subjective enough for you?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nope. Which is, as I said before, the problem.
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post #54 of 88
So bondage and rape of young girls is a matter of subjectivity? Hum? I'll go ask my friend that came very close to that what she thinks.
post #55 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>So bondage and rape of young girls is a matter of subjectivity? Hum? I'll go ask my friend that came very close to that what she thinks.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not at all. I didn't want to respond in detail to your previous post because I'd hoped you'd bring the word "rape" out of those enclosing parentheses.

I've already said in more than one post that the important issue is that nobody is harmed in the creation of these images, or by viewing the images. In fact I said as much in the paragraph after the one containing the word "subjective". See?

The teenagers in Sturges' images were consenting participants. They weren't forced to pose, and most certainly weren't forced to perform sexual acts.

This is where people are subjective. I don't care that some people find them distasteful, I only care if they do some harm. Nobody has given any reasonable argument that they do. Who is being hurt? Who are we trying to protect? Not rhetorical, I'd like to know.

[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
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post #56 of 88
I was priviledged to study photography under Jaclyn Cori, a personal friend of Sally Mann. In the class we had the opportunity to view and discuss a good bit of Mann's work. Simply put, it is stunning. The pictures that she takes are not only gorgeous photographs, but also depict the subjects (her children) in an incredibly loving light. The fact that the children are are sometimes nude is a small part of the work. However, it's the one part that's made her truly famous (infamous?) as tightwad conservatives immediately think "NAKED KIDS = PORNOGRAPHY." It's sad that something that's truly innocent in its subject matter is distorted into child pornography. And yes, I do think that the people who sexualize Sally Mann's work are the ones who are sick.

I'm not familiar enough with Jock Sturges work to have a weil informed opinion (I wish other people in this thread would realize the same). However, in concept, it's important to realize the distinction between nudity, sexuality, eroticism, and pornography. In no way is the work that I have seen of Sturges pornographic, in that it is not exploitative; it is not meant to titilate or arouse. It is quite easy to distinguish. I've no problem discerning between a pornographic magazine and a book of nude photography, even if that photography is erotic. Frankly I don't think I could "get off" on artistic nudity if I wanted to. Maybe I'm not perverted enough. :

"A distinction must be made between eroticism and pornography; the media have blurred the disparity to an unforgivable degree. For those intelligent enough to recongnize the difference, erotica will continue to hold a unique fascination. Social evils should not be confused with the pursuit of true beauty." - David Hamilton
post #57 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>
Not at all. I didn't want to respond in detail to your previous post because I'd hoped you'd bring the word "rape" out of those enclosing parentheses.

I've already said in more than one post that the important issue is that nobody is harmed in the creation of these images, or by viewing the images. In fact I said as much in the paragraph after the one containing the word "subjective". See?

The teenagers in Sturges' images were consenting participants. They weren't forced to pose, and most certainly weren't forced to perform sexual acts.

This is where people are subjective. I don't care that some people find them distasteful, I only care if they do some harm. Nobody has given any reasonable argument that they do. Who is being hurt? Who are we trying to protect? Not rhetorical, I'd like to know.

[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Okay so as long as this girl is okay with it and no one gets hurt then it's okay? Right? So if she wanted to do ... I don't know ... a *** shot would that be okay. How about her ******* a guy off? Is that okay? You can't get hurt by it. She may do it with her little boy friend. So why not shoot it under good lighting and use B&W film. Then it's art!
post #58 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Okay so as long as this girl is okay with it and no one gets hurt then it's okay? Right? So if she wanted to do ... I don't know ... a *** shot would that be okay. How about her ******* a guy off? Is that okay? You can't get hurt by it. She may do it with her little boy friend. So why not shoot it under good lighting and use B&W film. Then it's art!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Holy crap. This is why I asked NoahJ to define "underage". Some things are illegal if you're underage, some are not. Performing sex acts underage is illegal, so I guess we'd question the motivation of someone who'd photograph such actions. Being naked isn't a crime in the appropriate place (Sturges' pictures were of nudists on a nudist beach), and taking pictures of consenting people without clothes on isn't illegal.

The concern we should all have is protecting the subjects of the photographs. Seems the law does this adequately in this case.

[Edit: I think you'd also have a difficult time in proving images of sex acts are something beyond an attempt at titillation.]

[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
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post #59 of 88
Well who's to say? Maybe the law is wrong. Of the girls is 17 years and 364 days does that make it "wrong". You're so close minded. If she's okay with it why do you care? No one's getting hurt.
post #60 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Well who's to say? Maybe the law is wrong. Of the girls is 17 years and 364 days does that make it "wrong". You're so close minded. If she's okay with it why do you care? No one's getting hurt.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm, I stated that the law as it stands is in place to protect those who are "underage". I didn't say the law is correct, and I most certainly didn't offer a personal opinion about whether it would be "wrong" or not.
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post #61 of 88
I could have stared at that photo for amillion years and NEVER would I have seen bondage implied in it.

I suppose we should paint those fig leaves and loin cloths back into the Last Judgement. That Michelangelo was such a horny boy! Oh, but thsoe are old and he's dead so it's different.

OK, seriously (well, the first sentence was serious too), I'm not going to defend thse guys absolutely. I certainly thought some of Mapplethorpe's images (and like so many contemporary artists these days going more for the "shock" than for the "new" or expressive) were pornographic. These guys could be doing that too as I do not know their work that well. But I've yet to come across any images like that from them.

Would it help if these were paintings and not photos?
post #62 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>As far as I'm concerned, the issue isn't the subject matter of the picture, it's who was harmed in the taking of the picture, and who could be harmed viewing the picture.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Humorless joke next (Just kidding NoahJ)

NoahJ + Sturges photo = boner/harmed?

I don't get it. The only way a photo could "harm" me would be a paper cut...or eat it. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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post #63 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:
<strong>

Humorless joke next (Just kidding NoahJ)

NoahJ + Sturges photo = boner/harmed?

I don't get it. The only way a photo could "harm" me would be a paper cut...or eat it. :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>
I think NoahJ is now entitled to harm you.

Harmed in the taking of the photograph - forced to participate.

Harmed in the viewing of the photograph..? I guess that's a large part of what is being discussed here. Are people going to be seriously disturbed by viewing the images? Are kids going to think it's a fun idea to get naked in front of the local "friendly" photographer? Will some people see the pictures and get an urge to have sex with underage children?

We're never going to get anywhere with this thread, because it's all subjective, all about personal views.

I find Sturges' images acceptable, I think probably because they're in no way sexually provocative. Clearly they're over the line in NoahJ's case. And Scott H., though he's arguing rather vociferously for the other side stated earlier that the kids should be left alone to be kids. Because people have different limits, there's no way to argue either side successfully, just discuss 'til you're going round in circles... or insulting poor NoahJ.

Interestingly, though, Scott H. brings up a related point that in fact Sturges has argued for some years - that it seems a bit ludicrous that some things suddenly become "acceptable" at a certain age. As Sturges put it, "a knife drops", and you're 17, or you're 18, and suddenly things are okay that weren't yesterday, yet you're the same person. We have to have a cut-off point somewhere, and there's no chance in the world that anyone is ever going to agree on what's acceptable before that point.
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post #64 of 88
[quote]A 15 year old being photgraphed in the nude does nothing for the girl. I challenge you to show me any benefits...<hr></blockquote>

This is taken from an interview with Sturges, at <a href="http://www.sexuality.org/l/davids/cnstur.html" target="_blank">http://www.sexuality.org/l/davids/cnstur.html</a>

[quote]Steinberg: Do they like posing?

Sturges: They adore it. Are you kidding?

Steinberg: What do they like about it?

Sturges: They like being taken seriously as people. After they've been in the process for a while, they realize they get all the pictures that we do -- the families get a copy of every photograph that I take -- and they begin to really enjoy being thought of as beautiful. We live in an age where anonymity is growing in magnitude like a bomb going off. As media stars become increasingly powerful, the rest of us are increasingly ciphers. The distance between the lives [of celebrities] and our lives is growing all the time. Children feel absolutely invisible, unnoticed, and as if they can make no difference. The more of the world we see in the media, the more aware we are of how insignificant any one of us is.

Kids feel this, even if they can't articulate it in quite that way. Time and again, when interviewed about being photographed, they talk about the photography as a way of becoming less anonymous. They like the admiration; they like the thought that somebody thinks that they can be art.

Now, there's [also] what happens after the photographs are made. It's not hard for me to imagine that there are some [people] who will buy my book, buy my photographs, look at them and have "impure thoughts." There are people out there who buy shoe ads, Saran Wrap, and all manner of things, who have impure thoughts. I can't really do anything about those people, except hope that, if they attend to my work closely enough, they'll ultimately come to realize that these are real people.

What pedophiles and people who have sexual desires on children lose sight of to a terrible, terrible degree -- a devastating degree -- is that their victims are real people who will suffer forever whatever abuses are perpetrated on them. If I'm able to make pictures of children that are so real, as you follow the children growing up over the years, perhaps there will be something cautionary in that visual example. The truth is that every pedophile's victim eventually grows up and becomes an adult who will turn around and that's when they get caught.<hr></blockquote>

Amorya
post #65 of 88
Maybe this girl will be "harmed" when she finds out her photo, however artful, is/will be plastered on every kiddie porn site on the net. Something she may not have considered when she when she was seduced into allowing the photo under the idea of seeming more adult than she is? An outcome that she may not have considered at her young age.
post #66 of 88
Ive got a question for you guys, a painting of a nude model, is that pornography?
Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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Those who dance the dance must look very foolish to those who can't hear the music
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post #67 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by Artman @_@:
<strong>

Humorless joke next (Just kidding NoahJ)

NoahJ + Sturges photo = boner/harmed?

I don't get it. The only way a photo could "harm" me would be a paper cut...or eat it. :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Humorless joke? Not only was it humorless it was not a joke. It was an insult of the worst kind.

The harm is not to you, the harm is to the person being photographed. Although i suppose the erosion of moral fiber that occurs when you are desensitized to these types of photos could be called harm as well.

I don't know if participating in this thread is worthwhle. I really dislike personal attacks and that one was way off base. I have attempted to be fair and to represent my point without bringing these sad attempts at homor into them. Unless I was responding to what I saw as an extreme statement meant to elicit a response of equal extremity.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #68 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>Humorless joke? Not only was it humorless it was not a joke. It was an insult of the worst kind. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm sorry NoahJ. I really meant nothing at all. But the thought ran through my mind and as I was typing the post. It happens.

Still though I sense there is something that irks you about these photos. I know not what. It's your problem.

Again. Apologies. <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />
I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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I AM THE Royal Pain in the Ass.
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post #69 of 88
scott h., why do you think all of these terrible perverse things will happen to girls who pose nude? where is this surity coming from?

i have no idea why this girl would suddenly be transformed into a wanton slut because she had a professional photographer take pictures of her and her mom and grandmother naked.

that leap just isn't happneing for me.
post #70 of 88
When did I say that something would happen to the girl? I'd bet that image is making the rounds of the kiddie porn sites. I couldn't tell you though because I wouldn't know where to find that shit. This is the only <a href="http://home.ican.net/%7Eotiss/gallery/gallery.html" target="_blank">kitty port</a> I know.
post #71 of 88
I've decided to post this in another thread, because i't sway off topic, although it quotes a post here...

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: tonton ]</p>
post #72 of 88
This is such a serious topic, with some very serious opinions. Personally, I stand firmly with Artman @_@ and Belle on this one.

The fact is that almost nowhere except in the US would this form of art be considered even remotely pornographic.

As a side note, I see two factors contributing to the uncharacteristic controversialization of this subject (as well as many others, such as abortion and the death penalty) in the US. One is a sickening trend to equate conservativism with a feeling of righteousness. This is evident whenever Rush Limbaugh or certain members of these forums make a misguided attempt to use the word "liberal" as an insult.

The other factor I see, though much less obvious, is America's litigious nature, which has led many to stand on the conservative side with issues which are in a grey area of the law. According to glurx's reference, for instance, Barnes and Noble were indicted in a few states in the South for selling Sturges' books. Had these stores been run by Scott H., they may have saved a few dollars on legal expenses. A stretch? Maybe so, but it's just a theory. Regardless, the US stands alone as one of the most intolerant of Western countries in the area of innocuous nudity.

[ 01-28-2002: Message edited by: tonton ]</p>
post #73 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by tonton:
<strong>Had these stores been run by Scott H., they may have saved a few dollars on legal expenses.</strong><hr></blockquote>

How do you know how I would run a book store <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
post #74 of 88
Scott, I was implying that you may have chosen not to sell Sturges' books based on your principles, and the company therefore might not have been indicted.
post #75 of 88
If anyone has Showtime, check out the movie they're showing lately called "Dirty Pictures." It's based on the story of Dennis Barrie, the director of the CAC in Cincinnati, who was put on trial in 1990 for showing a retrospective of Robert Mapplethorpe's work. The movie itself is somewhat banal but it's worth it to see the interviews with Fran Leibowvitz, Salmon Rushdie, and most interestingly, Jessie McBride, who appeared naked in a Mapplethorpe picture as a young boy. It was interesting to see what he has to say about the experience, now that he's an adult.
post #76 of 88
I don't have Showtime. And I do think that some of Mapplethorpe's images go the "shock" and simply lewd.
post #77 of 88
I haven't been closely following this thread, so I won't comment on specific points. However, to the individuals in opposition of Sturges' work, I would say that the best way to fight speech, in the legal sense of the word, is with more speech, not censorship.
post #78 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>...some of Mapplethorpe's images go the "shock" and simply lewd.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Mr 10 1/2 scared me straight that's for sure.
post #79 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

Mr 10 1/2 scared me straight that's for sure. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Uh... I would avoid using those exact words to describe the effect the photo had on me. ;D
post #80 of 88
[quote]Originally posted by BuonRotto:
<strong>I don't have Showtime. And I do think that some of Mapplethorpe's images go the "shock" and simply lewd.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yet he took some of my favourite pictures of flowers and other still-life objects.
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