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Palm Pre users suffer cloud computing data loss

post #1 of 56
Thread Starter 
Palm is investigating why its Palm Pre users are suffering data loss after resetting or replacing their WebOS phones and attempting to restore their personal data from the company's online cloud backup service.

Pre contacts, calendar items, memos and tasks are supposed to be backed up by automatic sync to Palm's cloud servers, enabling users to swap out faulty hardware without any need to back up their data to their own local computer. Palm refers to this online data backup as a Profile, but the system isn't working for an increasing number of users who report losing all or most of their information, according to a report by PreCentral.

The problem recalls the data catastrophe suffered by Microsoft's Danger group, which resulted in a widespread loss of personal information for T-Mobile Sidekick users. Microsoft was able to recover some of the data after Sun and Oracle experts stepped in to help recover the information, but the salvaged data took over a month to restore because the company didn't have adequate backups.

Earlier this year, Nokia also experienced a cloud services failure with Ovi, its mobile online service then operating in a public beta, after a server accident resulted in database problems. Despite having "regular backups," the company said "we were not able to set it right" and had to revert to an older database performed three weeks earlier at its previous hosting center.

"Were sorry for the lost contacts in your phonebooks," Nokia's Ovi Contacts project manager Kristian Luoma posted to the company's blog. "Were sorry that the profile pictures you love, and we love too are gone. Nothing can make this right, we know, but were hoping that you can forgive us and give another chance to give you good service."

Like Microsoft's Danger/Sidekick platform, Palm's new WebOS devices are not designed to sync with a desktop PC, so users can't back up their own phones without buying third party software to do so. Apple has suffered similar data loss issues in its rollout of MobileMe, its own cloud backup and push sync data service, but iPhone and iPod touch users are able to sync their devices to iTunes locally, enabling them to backup and restore their personal data independently of any problems that many occur in the cloud.

The Cloud or Bust

Despite the widespread troubles plaguing devices that are only designed to sync with the cloud (and which make it complicated, difficult or even impossible for users to perform their own backups locally), vendors are still working to push mobile devices tied to cloud-only sync services.

Last year, Android's Product Marketing Director Marc Vanlerberghe, wrote, "We envisioned a world where your various computers and phones would always be in sync without needing discipline, USB cables, Bluetooth, and synchronization software." The result was that Google's Android is designed to sync user data automatically to Google's cloud service in the background.

If Google were to lose any Android data on its end (Google's Gmail and other services have gone offline and/or lost users' messages several times before) Android phones would dutifully sync the loss back to the handset without the user even realizing it happened until the data was gone, with no way for the user to subsequently restore the data.

Microsoft recently released its own My Phone service for Windows Mobile to similarly back up users' entire phone to the company's cloud servers rather than to the their own PC. Most Windows Mobile phones are designed to sync with a local Exchange Server, which many of Microsoft's remaining users might prefer over the company's own cloud service, given its track record with Danger.

Unlike the iPhone 3GS, the Verizon/Motorola Droid doesn't support the default minimum security policy required by Exchange Server, resulting in many companies refusing to support Android phone sync with their corporate email systems.

With every major phone vendor having experienced serious and significant cloud service failures, more companies might begin recognizing that support for local data sync and backup through a user application like iTunes is not just a good idea, but an essential feature for consumers increasingly wary of trusting their information to a central server on the cloud, particularly services that offer to maintain users' data for free, and which subsequently can't be expected to care that much about restoring lost information once it occurs.



Daniel Eran Dilger is the author of "Snow Leopard Server (Developer Reference)," a new book from Wiley available now.
post #2 of 56
This isn't good. "Cloud Computing" is supposed to be the future of computers and smart mobiles. If they can't get this reliable, people aren't going to trust the system.

To think that Google's Chrome OS will have ALL your content stored in the Cloud is a little disconcerting right now...
post #3 of 56
I don't see how anything could wrong with me storing all my personal and confidential data on a cloud owned by a for-profit corp. Nope...none at all.
post #4 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPedro View Post

This isn't good. "Cloud Computing" is supposed to be the future of computers and smart mobiles. If they can't get this reliable, people aren't going to trust the system.

To think that Google's Chrome OS will have ALL your content stored in the Cloud is a little disconcerting right now...

Yeah - if they can't get it right at the very beginning, how will they ever get it right later?!?
post #5 of 56
This is why Palm wanted to sync with iTunes!

No, but seriously, I really like my Pre. It's not as fast or refined as the iPhone, but I really didn't want to switch to AT&T. Hopefully I won't ever have to deal with the backup/restore issue... \
post #6 of 56
More proof that Palm is a godawful mess. From one fumble to another.
post #7 of 56
I don't see how anybody thinks cloud-only computing is a good idea. I love syncing through the cloud with my iPhone and MobileMe, but when something goes wrong on the cloud, I still have two or more local copies I can refer to, and if those got destroyed by the corrupted data from the cloud, I have backups of my local system because I'm a responsible computer user.

The idea that the only copy of your data is on somebody else's servers, in a format of their chosing, that you can only reach when you have internet access, is scary as hell. It might be useful for some things -- if Facebook crashed and burned and disappeared from existence overnight, I wouldn't cry. But we're talking about email, phone numbers, addresses, calendars, identification and banking data, application data -- the things that have become essential to our productivity and survival as a technological civilization. What person, that determines the course of a major company like Microsoft or Google, thinks that keeping everyone's data only on the cloud is a safe idea, to the point where they make it impossible or impractical for a person to have a local backup?
post #8 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

More proof that Palm is a godawful mess. From one fumble to another.

It's not just Palm. Apple had issues when they launched MobileMe, Microsoft had it recently. GMail was offline and had a scare just a few weeks ago.

They need to get this right or nobody's gonna trust having their info stored in the Cloud and not locally. As a photographer, there's no way I'd trust my life's work to be somewhere in the ether. I keep a copy on my Mac, a copy on my Time Capsule and a copy in on an HDD stored in a safety deposit box at my bank.
post #9 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPedro View Post

This isn't good. "Cloud Computing" is supposed to be the future of computers and smart mobiles. If they can't get this reliable, people aren't going to trust the system.

which is a good thing, or? people shouldn't trust any "system". healthy distrust is a very good thing
post #10 of 56
I had a recent experience where a software install hosed my address book. I was able to quickly restore from the "cloud" (google address book) but also had a local backup as well. The cloud was quicker in this instance but having one or many local backups is always a smart way to go.

For me, the cloud as a backup to my local backup won't be changing anytime soon.
post #11 of 56
When a plane crashes there are news stories around the world. But every single day many more people are killed on the roads. They just don't make the headlines.

Cloud computing failures can be similarly high profile events. However, the reality is that most people do not back up local data and many more people have lost documents or contacts because of a HDD failure or their phone died than have lost data due to cloud computing failures.

The more duplication of data across more locations (local + remote) the less likely you are suffer data loss; however for the average consumer, just moving to the cloud would put them in a better position than they are now.
post #12 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post

When a plane crashes there are news stories around the world. But every single day many more people are killed on the roads. They just don't make the headlines.

Cloud computing failures can be similarly high profile events. However, the reality is that most people do not back up local data and many more people have lost documents or contacts because of a HDD failure or their phone died than have lost data due to cloud computing failures.

The more duplication of data across more locations (local + remote) the less likely you are suffer data loss; however for the average consumer, just moving to the cloud would put them in a better position than they are now.

True, as much as I distrust all those "cloud computing" companies, the simple fact is Apple could release a version of iTunes with a bug that improperly backs up your iphone without you knowing it's screwed up until you have to go and restore. Unless you have your iphone backup backed up (e.g. time machine) using a system that stores generational copies, you'd be just as hosed as all those other folks (and hosed up until the point you upgraded iTunes even with a backup). So this really isn't an issue that is unique to cloud computing, its an issue as old as computing itself, how to do proper backups (and more importantly, verify backups, which almost nobody does).
post #13 of 56
They can stick their cloud back up their @sses. I'll stick to local backups.
post #14 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPedro View Post

It's not just Palm. Apple had issues when they launched MobileMe, Microsoft had it recently. GMail was offline and had a scare just a few weeks ago.

They need to get this right or nobody's gonna trust having their info stored in the Cloud and not locally. As a photographer, there's no way I'd trust my life's work to be somewhere in the ether. I keep a copy on my Mac, a copy on my Time Capsule and a copy in on an HDD stored in a safety deposit box at my bank.

i'm curious if you have always done the right thing (backup, backup, backup!) or if you had to learn your lesson the hard way... which seems to be how most people finally arrive at a usable backup strategy....

unfortunately it seems that most people don't think about the consequences of losing data - be it on their computer or their phone - unless they had to deal with the agony of trying to rebuild their 'lives'.
post #15 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPedro View Post

It's not just Palm. Apple had issues when they launched MobileMe, ...

The difference with the way Apple does it though is that your data is just synced *through* the cloud, and sometimes backed up to the cloud, but you also have multiple local copies, a local backup, and sometimes a second cloud backup as well.
post #16 of 56
It is always good to have info backed-up locally and on the cloud. I like Apple and RIM's approach. All of my RIM data is stored on a blackberry server in our data center and backed-up to tape nightly.
post #17 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

More proof that Palm is a godawful mess. From one fumble to another.

the cracked screens still crack me up

happy thankgiving dude
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post #18 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

the cracked screens still crack me up

happy thankgiving dude

Thanks, bruce.

Even though I'm in Canada and we already had ours, I'll celebrate in spirit with our American friends.

post #19 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post

They can stick their cloud back up their @sses. I'll stick to local backups.


A-fscking-MEN to that.

My contact information is mine, not Microsoft's, not Apple's, not Google's, not Pre's, not AT&T's, not Verison or Nokia or the NSA, or hackers or anyone else, especially not some smart geek who will download the entire database every chance they get and sell it to my competition.

When the iPhone came out, I bet the snoops and hackers just leaped with joy as a phone has less protection than a computer, legally and security speaking. And people are just going to put all their data on it like sheep to the slaughterhouse.

What's funny is they are setting the stage that if your not "in the cloud" and revealing everything about yourself, you must be a terrorist or a secret baby eater or something.

Screw the cloud. Don't need it or want it.
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post #20 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

Screw the cloud. Don't need it or want it.

As a backup medium it's still better than having nothing at all. It's another redundancy with the added benefit (in MobileMe's case) of allowing the user to work on their files (or whatever they have on the Cloud) from anywhere in tne world, across a range of devices.

For instance, I work solely off the Cloud, using my iDisk. I automatically have a local backup on my Mac, but my documents folder is actually a shortcut to my iDisk. Even if Apple, by some strange twist of fate, lost all my info on the Cloud, I'll still have it locally, automatically.

The way I use it at least, there is no downside to the Cloud except for a possible security issue, but even if my most personal files on the Cloud were somehow hacked or violated, there would be no real personal risk to me, unless someone were out to publish my scholarly papers before I did.
post #21 of 56
i use Symantec Netbackup and i'm always getting emails how if you have such and such a configuration then your backups may be failing even though it tells you they were successful. i'm even in the process of writing SQL code to verify the integrity of our backups. latest email came in today how very 6.5.5 which is going to be released December 2nd will skip backing up some databases under certain conditions.

i was even hit by a bug in netbackup where it deletes records of your backups from it's internal database.

the most reliable backup system i've seen is backing up to an external hard drive or another computer
post #22 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

A-fscking-MEN to that.

My contact information is mine, not Microsoft's, not Apple's, not Google's, not Pre's, not AT&T's, not Verison or Nokia or the NSA, or hackers or anyone else, especially not some smart geek who will download the entire database every chance they get and sell it to my competition.

When the iPhone came out, I bet the snoops and hackers just leaped with joy as a phone has less protection than a computer, legally and security speaking. And people are just going to put all their data on it like sheep to the slaughterhouse.

What's funny is they are setting the stage that if your not "in the cloud" and revealing everything about yourself, you must be a terrorist or a secret baby eater or something.

Screw the cloud. Don't need it or want it.

Well for us small businesses that have global offices and do not want to invest large amount of cash outlay nto servers, it is god send and allows us to keep our outlay for IT support at fraction of the price, it would have cost 5 years ago.

We have 4 back ups for our data, each local office has a backup services within office distance and then back-up for backup.

But I agree for a mobile phone, why would you not backup on your computer as well as alternative.
post #23 of 56
The "screw the cloud" comments bewilder me. Generally speaking, your data is safer there. I agree that you need control of either live data or backups, but the vast majority of people just can't handle it. Things like Google Apps, Salesforce, etc. offer real benefits that you just can't get from traditional routes.

As things get more complicated and database driven, the complexity kills many things. This makes useful backups much harder to do. But I for one would much rather have Google handle my company's email than try and do it myself. Just can't beat the value.
post #24 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

As a backup medium it's still better than having nothing at all. It's another redundancy with the added benefit (in MobileMe's case) of allowing the user to work on their files (or whatever they have on the Cloud) from anywhere in tne world, across a range of devices.

For instance, I work solely off the Cloud, using my iDisk. I automatically have a local backup on my Mac, but my documents folder is actually a shortcut to my iDisk. Even if Apple, by some strange twist of fate, lost all my info on the Cloud, I'll still have it locally, automatically.

The way I use it at least, there is no downside to the Cloud except for a possible security issue, but even if my most personal files on the Cloud were somehow hacked or violated, there would be no real personal risk to me, unless someone were out to publish my scholarly papers before I did.

Exactly, it's a case of 'do what fits'. There is no one strategy that is perfect. I have over 4 TB of data on line at any one time and obviously impossible to back up with cloud technology. I use Carbon Copy Cloner to make updated clones of all drives weekly, twice - one stored locally one off site including boot drive and Time Machine on the boot drive locally and Mobile me for the tiny stiff like settings, contacts and calendars. I use Gmail to make a copy of all e-mails from MobileMe, so far this goes back to inception of GMail. I only fear an EMP ... \
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post #25 of 56
Lets review: The company that couldn't be bothered to write their own music sync solution also has no meaningful way to sync Pre contact and appointment data from the cloud to the user's desktop/laptop computer? Yeah. Like everyone couldn't see that coming...

I wonder if the Pre crowd still thinks Jon Rubinstein walks on water?

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post #26 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by mn3416 View Post

The cloud was quicker in this instance but having one or many local backups is always a smart way to go.

For some reason, people still come to me with crashes and no backups. Backing up for the average person, it seems to me, is still not mainstream.
Even though I think most people still don't back up their stuff, not having the option to do it is ludicrous. When someone learns the hard way that their information is toast, and I tell them to get a backup device with their new hard drive, they are all ears.
The inability to backup your information should be a huge warning on the package of the product.
post #27 of 56
To me the Achille's Heel of any Cloud Computing based system or company is their financial stability. What happens if everything works perfectly technically (and that's a BIG IF) and the company goes out of business?

Years ago In the stock photo business, there were photographers that lost hundreds, if not thousands of their images (back when images were primarily submitted to agencies as 35mm slide transparencies and the agency required originals, not dupes) when some photo agencies went out of business. To send all the images back to the photographers (postage, packing, sorting, handling, etc.) was cost prohibitive and in most cases was never done. Even if the photographer had made dupes the quality usually did not match that of their original slide transparency.

So what happens to all those servers if a cloud computing company ever goes out of business?

And what 100%, iron-clad guarantee can ANY company give you that they will NEVER go out of business? And what recourse do you have if they do go out of business and break that guarantee? Sue them to get all your data back?
post #28 of 56
Ughghhhhhghhhahhhh. Another knife at the heart of the Pre. That's gotta hurt; sincerely. That's the worst press I could imagine. MJ being a pedophile was less damaging than this.
SRY.

It seems pretty arrogant for a company with as many users as Palm and MSFT to not take heavy measures to protect everyones data or admit that they'd be better off letting the user backup their won data. It goes without saying, when you're talking about backing up data, cover your ass. On sight backups are fast and make for a speedy recovery and offsite backups will protect you from fires, theft, flooding etc. It's not really a choice of one or the other for 100% protection; either can and probably will (even in an insignificant way) "fail" a couple of times every year.

It's a poor choice for manufacturers to force users to put their device data solely on a cloud; and in fact tout that condition as if it were a feature. Apple made the right call in this regard. As others have pointed out, Mobile me is a different beast.

Happy Thanksgiving for anyone in the states.
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post #29 of 56
Anybody who is serious about their data should not entrust their data solely to a cloud service whether paid or free. In my business I use RAID servers and in addition I got external hard drives for archival back ups. On top of that I use an offsite back up service. Any back up procedure needs to be checked routinely for data integrity.

Same precautions need to be taken with the iPhone data. Plus make hard copy back ups in paper. Saves a lot of grief.
post #30 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPedro View Post

To think that Google's Chrome OS will have ALL your content stored in the Cloud is a little disconcerting right now...

It will, but that doesnt mean you wont be able to have a local copy, too.
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post #31 of 56
"We envisioned a world where your various computers and phones would always be in sync without needing discipline, USB cables, Bluetooth, and synchronization software."

More like: "We envision a world where your address book is on our (and only our) server so you're locked in to our products."
post #32 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

A-fscking-MEN to that.

My contact information is mine, not Microsoft's, not Apple's, not Google's, not Pre's, not AT&T's, not Verison or Nokia or the NSA, or hackers or anyone else, especially not some smart geek who will download the entire database every chance they get and sell it to my competition.

When the iPhone came out, I bet the snoops and hackers just leaped with joy as a phone has less protection than a computer, legally and security speaking. And people are just going to put all their data on it like sheep to the slaughterhouse.

What's funny is they are setting the stage that if your not "in the cloud" and revealing everything about yourself, you must be a terrorist or a secret baby eater or something.

Screw the cloud. Don't need it or want it.

Wow, I could have written your post, almost word for word. My information is mine, and no one else's, especially not Microsoft or Google or Facebook, AT&T, etc., as they are the biggest collectors. And the notion that if you do not participate you are somehow "dirty", is also depicted by the TV ads that show how paying cash is bad because it inconveniences others. The truth is simply that it doesn't generate any revenue for the credit/debit card companies!

But back to the cloud; let's take this a step further. Even if you don't put your personal data and information in the cloud, unless you're insanely demanding, your friends are handing out your personal contact information to all these services and corporations. On Facebook, in their Yahoo contact lists, hell even in their cell phone address books, which get synch'd back up to the corporate servers.

It's all about convenience. Most people are lazy and ignorant, and they don't give a rip about other people's personal information. Sucks.
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post #33 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post

The "screw the cloud" comments bewilder me. Generally speaking, your data is safer there. I agree that you need control of either live data or backups, but the vast majority of people just can't handle it. Things like Google Apps, Salesforce, etc. offer real benefits that you just can't get from traditional routes.

While this is true, if I don't back up my data at home then I know that it's unsafe. If I have confidence that "the cloud" is backing up my data when in reality it's lost it, I'd consider myself worse off - when I finally need that back up I find it's not there.

I would treat any cloud service as a secondary backup to my own, but unfortunately in the case of Palm/Microsoft/Danger victims, I wouldn't have much choice.
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post #34 of 56
Like many people here, I use a combination of 'the cloud' (MobileMe, iDisk, and GMail and some Google Calendars) and local storage (Mac) and backup (TC and occaisional archive of important data).

However, where things often go wrong is in the data management. For instance, Sidekick users that rebooted their devices lost the local copy of data as it was written overwritten by 'nothing' from the cloud. The service made an assumption that the clud was right, and the device wrong.

Data management needs to be smarter. Master Data Management (MDM) is a relatively new thing in the enterprise, and can be viewed as a sort of middleware for managing multiple versions of data (or data for an entity) held across multiple systems. MDM tools can decide which is the 'golden copy' based upon a number of criteria, other than 'most recently changed' (which seems to be how most of these data sync services work). Since the MS/Danger servers were wiped after the data was added to the client Sidekick, the assumption was that the wiped data was the golden copy.

Until we get our sync software design smarter, we're still going to run into the same problems.
post #35 of 56
We need to understand that for years, very few ordinary phone users have ever had any kind of a backup of phone data.

As a photographer, we have a saying, 'if your photos are not in at least three places they don't exist'. And that is it. A backup locally, AND on the cloud, is sensible if it is stuff you value.

And who would I trust with Cloud data:- Microsoft? Never. Palm? Never. Adobe? Never. HP? Never. Apple, and for some data, Google, yes. That's it.
post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

As a backup medium it's still better than having nothing at all. It's another redundancy with the added benefit (in MobileMe's case) of allowing the user to work on their files (or whatever they have on the Cloud) from anywhere in tne world, across a range of devices.

For instance, I work solely off the Cloud, using my iDisk. I automatically have a local backup on my Mac, but my documents folder is actually a shortcut to my iDisk. Even if Apple, by some strange twist of fate, lost all my info on the Cloud, I'll still have it locally, automatically.

The way I use it at least, there is no downside to the Cloud except for a possible security issue, but even if my most personal files on the Cloud were somehow hacked or violated, there would be no real personal risk to me, unless someone were out to publish my scholarly papers before I did.

i use the cloud to save some important stuff and i put a couple 100 songs to share up there .

but i fear for you that count on so heavy on the cloud

happy thanksgiving dude

peace
9
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post #37 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by souliisoul View Post

Well for us small businesses that have global offices and do not want to invest large amount of cash outlay nto servers, it is god send and allows us to keep our outlay for IT support at fraction of the price, it would have cost 5 years ago.

We have 4 back ups for our data, each local office has a backup services within office distance and then back-up for backup.

But I agree for a mobile phone, why would you not backup on your computer as well as alternative.

I always find this claim of IT staff support odd.

NeXT was global with offices in over a dozen countries and multiple locations within each country.

Our combined staff for IT was three Engineers. Yes you read correctly. Three Engineers who were experts in all matters regarding NIS/NFS/DNS/distributed networks, et, al.

They were paid very well and with Engineering developed a wide variety of enhancements to NeXTStep in-house only to make our productivity more than double itself.

These three guys split up after the Apple Merger. One took over Apple's network, another went to run ILM and a third went to PIXAR.

Quality over Quantity.
post #38 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon T View Post

We need to understand that for years, very few ordinary phone users have ever had any kind of a backup of phone data.

As a photographer, we have a saying, 'if your photos are not in at least three places they don't exist'. And that is it. A backup locally, AND on the cloud, is sensible if it is stuff you value.

And who would I trust with Cloud data:- Microsoft? Never. Palm? Never. Adobe? Never. HP? Never. Apple, and for some data, Google, yes. That's it.

apple them selves dis agree
with so many hard drives crashing lately
and the cloud can un svnc or lose data at anytime from a dozen reasons , the only true safe way is to ALSO besides <cloud/HD /back up HD > is to burn to a multiple 8 g DVD'S .

and burn a second archive set and bank vault i >tex wife it every 3 months

i lost 71 hours of home videos even w/ 2 1tb WD drives

peace 9
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post #39 of 56
You have a valid point. Companies like AT&T and Verizon are famous for giving the government free access to your information without the minimum standard of probably cause necessary for a court order. Further, it is perfectly legal for companies to just hand over your stuff to practically anybody it pleases without any regard for Constitutional protections or privacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

A-fscking-MEN to that.

My contact information is mine, not Microsoft's, not Apple's, not Google's, not Pre's, not AT&T's, not Verison or Nokia or the NSA, or hackers or anyone else, especially not some smart geek who will download the entire database every chance they get and sell it to my competition.

When the iPhone came out, I bet the snoops and hackers just leaped with joy as a phone has less protection than a computer, legally and security speaking. And people are just going to put all their data on it like sheep to the slaughterhouse.

What's funny is they are setting the stage that if your not "in the cloud" and revealing everything about yourself, you must be a terrorist or a secret baby eater or something.

Screw the cloud. Don't need it or want it.
post #40 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post

Wow, I could have written your post, almost word for word. My information is mine, and no one else's, especially not Microsoft or Google or Facebook, AT&T, etc., as they are the biggest collectors. And the notion that if you do not participate you are somehow "dirty", is also depicted by the TV ads that show how paying cash is bad because it inconveniences others. The truth is simply that it doesn't generate any revenue for the credit/debit card companies!

But back to the cloud; let's take this a step further. Even if you don't put your personal data and information in the cloud, unless you're insanely demanding, your friends are handing out your personal contact information to all these services and corporations. On Facebook, in their Yahoo contact lists, hell even in their cell phone address books, which get synch'd back up to the corporate servers.

It's all about convenience. Most people are lazy and ignorant, and they don't give a rip about other people's personal information. Sucks.

you would need billions of people just to review all that stupid mundane home info
but yes
goggle collects more than all the rest combined
only the chinese govt has more data
and all these companies are helping the chinese gov't supress there people by collecting data for them and using key words to catch them
google search peace in red china and you will get flagged and watched

fuck the world
our own top companies in bed with the commies
and that includes red apple's no wifi phone scandel


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whats in a name ? 
beatles
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whats in a name ? 
beatles
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