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Behold the Grand Deception: The war on terrorism is a war on freedom.

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
I received this <a href="http://www.newswithviews.com/war_on_terrorism.htm" target="_blank">Essay</a> in my email and as I began to read it I wondered just where is this guy going. As it went on it became more an more clear what he was saying. I don't necessarily agree with him, but it was an interesting read and seems to tie up his points somewhat succinctly (sp?).

Here is the information they post on him at the site:

[quote]G. Edward Griffin is a writer and documentary film producer with many successful titles to his credit. Listed in Whos Who in America, he is well known because of his unique talent for researching difficult topics and presenting them in clear terms that all can understand. He has dealt with such diversified subjects as archaeology and ancient earth history, international banking, internal subversion, terrorism, the history of taxation, U.S. foreign policy, the science and politics of cancer therapy, the Supreme Court, and the United Nations. Some of his better known works include The Discovery of Noah's Ark, Moles in High Places, The Open Gates of Troy, No Place to Hide, World Without Cancer, The Life and Words of Robert Welch, The Capitalist Conspiracy, The Grand Design, The Great Prison Break, and The Fearful Master. His most recent book is entitled "The Creature From Jekyll Island: A Second Look At The Federal Reserve".

He is also the creator of The Reality Zone Audio Archives. Mr. Griffin is a graduate of the University of Michigan, where he majored in speech and communications. He is a recipient of the Telly Award for excellence in television production.

He is the founder of the Cancer Cure Foundation and has served on the board of directors of the National Health Federation and the International Association of Cancer Victims and Friends. He is a Contributing Editor for The New American magazine, president of American Media and founder of the Reality Zone.<hr></blockquote>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #2 of 30
Very interesting to say the least. As I said in this Topic
<a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000418" target="_blank">http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000418</a>

We've lost. Period and point blank. Rising Fear, Unemployment, Resentment. We're being played like Pawns. It's a shame. Call me a Kook but I realize when my rights are being taken away. Only those who refuse to engage their brains will be fooled by the blather of our Government an other Fair Weather Patriots. It's a shame that this Man was easily able to predict exactly what the Goverment was going to do. That's the benefit of being older, wise and having experience...you see the same ploys over and over again.
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post #3 of 30
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>Very interesting to say the least. As I said in this Topic
<a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000418" target="_blank">http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi? ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000418</a>

We've lost. Period and point blank. Rising Fear, Unemployment, Resentment. We're being played like Pawns. It's a shame. Call me a Kook but I realize when my rights are being taken away. Only those who refuse to engage their brains will be fooled by the blather of our Government an other Fair Weather Patriots. It's a shame that this Man was easily able to predict exactly what the Goverment was going to do. That's the benefit of being older, wise and having experience...you see the same ploys over and over again.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think we've lost, but in the light of this article we seem to be onth slippery slope that the terroists aim to cast us down. I present this quote from the essay as backup.

[quote]Carlos Marighella, was a former leader of the Communist Party of Brazil. His book, The Mini-Manual for Urban Guerrillas, has been studied by revolutionaries and terrorists worldwide. It explains that the target government must be deliberately goaded into violating the rights of its citizens. Marighella said:

The government has no alternative but to intensify repression. The police roundups, house searches, arrests of innocent people make life unbearable. The general sentiment is that the government is unjust, incapable of solving problems, and resorts purely and simply to the physical liquidation of its opponents. The urban guerilla must become more aggressive and violent, resorting without letup to sabotage, terrorism, expropriations, assaults, kidnappings, and executions, heightening the disastrous situation in which the government must act.[6]

The same strategy was expressed in 1968 by Italian Communist Giangiacomo Feltrinelli, in a booklet entitled Political Guerilla Warfare. Feltrinelli said that the task of the terrorist was to violate the law openly challenging and outraging institutions and public order in every way. Then, when the state intervenes as a result, with the police and the courts, it will be easy to denounce its harshness and repressive dictatorial tendencies.[7]

In Germany, Ulrike Meinhof, a member of a terrorist group called the Red Army Fraction, explained it this way. She said: It is necessary to provoke the latent fascism in society, and then the people will turn to us for leadership.[8]

Initially, most citizens will not complain about a repressive government if they are convinced it is necessary for their own safety, but eventually it adds to a growing dissatisfaction with the status quo and sets the stage for a revolution either a violent one or a political one in which the target system is stripped of its freedoms with the timid consent of the governed. That is the real goal of international terrorism. Let me to repeat that. The goal of international terrorism is a revolution either a violent one or a political one in which the target system is stripped of its freedoms with the timid consent of the governed.<hr></blockquote>

If you cannot look around at what is going on and see at least some of this in play then you are closing your eyes. But we are not there yet. I look at Israel for example. They are definately one country that is finding the balance between what the terrorists aim to do and the country holding it together. It is a fine line...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #4 of 30
The most telling about the article is the prediction that Osama would be the Icon for hate and that he would not be captured. Our Military has been pathetic at following through on their objectives Hussein, Khadafi etc are still in power albeit weaker. Americans don't understand how some of the Muslims think. They do not fear Death like the typical American...if Osama dies it won't make much of a difference. There is no victory for the US...the Gov can only impinge on more of our rights in the name of fighting terror. This war will never end. I hate the doom and gloom but the prognosis is not good.
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post #5 of 30
Hmmm.

Somehow my rights as an American are being taken away as a result of 9/11?

I have heard the dire predictions of me losing my right to free speech since 9/12 but have yet to see it. I have heard of how thousands of Muslims are going to be locked away in tiny cells for years and without cause. I have yet to see it.

Anything specific?
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post #6 of 30
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Hmmm.

Somehow my rights as an American are being taken away as a result of 9/11?

I have heard the dire predictions of me losing my right to free speech since 9/12 but have yet to see it. I have heard of how thousands of Muslims are going to be locked away in tiny cells for years and without cause. I have yet to see it.

Anything specific?</strong><hr></blockquote>


Grove it doesn't happen overnight. It's a systematic process in which ideas like National ID cards, Additional powers allocated to the FBI, CIA or whoever(wiretapping). Laws are typically drawn up fairly ambiguous and far reaching. Look at abominations like the Ricco Act and tell me that this doesn't smack of corruption. You pay more taxes than your great great grandfather and you have less rights than he did....does that make you feel proud?
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post #7 of 30
So many of this guys predictions are just flat out wrong. They DID NOT come true at all. Others are debatable and others will take time to prove or disprove. Why would anyone give him anymore time considering he so bad at predicting?
post #8 of 30
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>So many of this guys predictions are just flat out wrong. They DID NOT come true at all. Others are debatable and others will take time to prove or disprove. Why would anyone give him anymore time considering he so bad at predicting?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I am really interested to hear which of these were which in your opinion. Which were wrong, which were right and which will be seen maybe later.

Not an attack, a question.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #9 of 30
I'm not worried about a national card, in fact I think we should have one. I'm not worried about the FBI or CIA looking into my life because I don't break any laws.

I am more worried about this country not realizing its a changed world and we need a strong CIA and FBI to protect us. We need to keep out illegal aliens and throw out those who are here.

We can just sit back and let the law enforcement agencies do their work without whining about it. Either that, or we could cry over another terrorist incident that will most definitely occur if we don't change our ways.

I say-spy away, boys and girls. Find the bad guys and fry 'em. The terrorists are counting on us to complain about the new security. We won't even notice its their unless you get all paranoid about it. Pop a valium and relax...............................
post #10 of 30
[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>The terrorists are counting on us to complain about the new security. We won't even notice its their unless you get all paranoid about it. Pop a valium and relax.</strong><hr></blockquote>John Ashcroft? Is that you?
post #11 of 30
Somehow my rights as an American are being taken away as a result of 9/11?

You do know that of the 10 ammendments in the Bill of Rights 5 of them are broken by the US Patriot act right? (According to the ACLU)
How about this one: If your accused of being a Terrorist by officials you can be tried with no jury, with set lawyers and executed.


I'm not worried about the FBI or CIA looking into my life because I don't break any laws.
I am more worried about this country not realizing its a changed world and we need a strong CIA and FBI to protect us.


This is exactly the attitude that leads to police states. "We need to give the army absolute authority in order to protect us!".
The common argument against this is that its this kind of thing that leads to a 1984ish control system. The response (so you dont have to make it) is that thats extremist and will never happen.
The idea is that you dont let that happen. If you give in a little here, and a little there, bad things start to happen. Im not saying that were gonna start getting thought police (well there have been cases of this already, but...) but if you want t opreserve your rights and freedoms then you dont give them away at the first threat of conflict.
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post #12 of 30
My opinion on his predictions.

#1- This is easy. This is the first thing that happens. Everyone takes sides and there seems to be no middle ground "love it or leave it"

#2 This is more vague. Politicians certainly crow about Terrorism as if they are taking up arms themselves but I don't know how much NATO and the UN are involved. Actually this one is close enough IMO to warrant a check mark.

#3 this has not happened. As a matter of fact I believe the average US Citizen may be willing to grant more armament for the US Gov and Militia.

#4 Military Tribunals have been enacted or promoted. X marks the spot.

#5 He nailed this one. Everything he has said has played out.

#6 We always hear about the prior warning and Intelligence warnings.

#7 Patriot Act, National ID card debate, enhanced spying powers. This is the dangerous one that is slowly forming. One to watch.

#8 No really happening as there aren't too many outspoken critics of the war getting Pub.

#9 Arstechnica has a topic about the Gov removing and destroying plans that detail various schematics and other items that "could" potentially aid in an attack. The premise is nice but it is Gov control at is base.

#10 This is a given. Did the War on Drugs and Crime ever end? No they become woven into the very fabric of our society.

#11 What a suprise. Osama escapes! Does our Military EVER really catch anyone. No ..they don't.

#12- Once the Taliban has been extracted fully from Afghanistan..I too am curious to see who the Power Structure is setup. This is another to watch.

#13 Of course...fool the sheep. We're too worried about the economy amongst other things to watch the Gov and react.


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Ben Franklin


[quote]I'm not worried about a national card, in fact I think we should have one. I'm not worried about the FBI or CIA looking into my life because I don't break any laws. <hr></blockquote>

[incredulous]Steve you trust our Gov with your personal files??? Where would the Checks and Balances be? Who would ensure this data is safe?[/incredulous]

[quote] say-spy away, boys and girls. Find the bad guys and fry 'em. The terrorists are counting on us to complain about the new security. We won't even notice its their unless you get all paranoid about it. Pop a valium and relax............................... <hr></blockquote>

Typically you will find that the "Bad Guys" are us.

"Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."
Nietzsche
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post #13 of 30
Ummm...correct me if I'm misreading this, but doesn't it seem like this G. Edward Griffin is doing exactly what he's accusing the US of, that is, shrouding a personal or political objective beneath the mantle of "freedom"? Note this "Global Force of Freedom," he describes, and towards the end when he says

[quote]From the article:

We must put the right people into government.<hr></blockquote>

Now, the "right people" wouldn't by any chance mean him, now would it?
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post #14 of 30
[quote]Originally posted by NoahJ:
<strong>

I am really interested to hear which of these were which in your opinion. Which were wrong, which were right and which will be seen maybe later.

Not an attack, a question. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I had a long reply typed out before but lost it because my browser fscked up.

1) Wrong. Not another "vietnam".

2) Wrong. US moved away from "world gov'" and now the talk it about sovereignty.

3) Wrong. See above. Bush ends ABM too.

4) Wrong. The US from the start claimed the right to try these people under the US authority.

5) Wrong. The debate about the FBI focused more on the fact that they don't do the leg work to run down leads. Good old fashion police work is what's needed.

6) Wrong. There were some missed signs. Things could be better but there is no "smoking gun" that the FBI or CIA "knew" what was coming.

7) Wrong. I don't think I need to explain why.

8) Wrong. Seems the left is taking more heat than the right.

9) Wrong. Didn't happen.

10) Too soon to tell. Looks like the US strategy is working well so far. We'll see if the next phase works out.

11) This seems right. But considering it looked like OBL was injured in the last video I think we got damn close. He wasn't hard to find just hard to get.

12) UN gov' in Afghanistan seems right but the real trouble is from internal sources.

13) I don't even know what to make of this. Seems like Washington got back to normal on all other issues.

He uses the end to sell his web site. Go buy the book "Do-It-Yourself Cancer Treatment"

This guy is looking more like a crack pot than an expert.
post #15 of 30
Thread Starter 
[quote]
1) Wrong. Not another "vietnam".
<hr></blockquote>

His first point was less about it being another vietnam and more about the "you are either with us or against us attitude that it had." The vietnam portion I disagree with, but Bush has many times said you are either with us or against us.
[quote]
2) Wrong. US moved away from "world gov'" and now the talk it about sovereignty.
<hr></blockquote>
I agree, this part has not happened in this way. We are fighting the battles ourselves, but letting the UN go in and clean up after us politically.
[quote]
3) Wrong. See above. Bush ends ABM too.
<hr></blockquote>
Definately not happening. But Bush is speaking about reducing the number of Nukes. Still his prediction was wrong.
[quote]
4) Wrong. The US from the start claimed the right to try these people under the US authority.
<hr></blockquote>
So far, wrong. We are trying them under military tribunals and getting flack form the world about it. (see cuban incident for more on this)
[quote]
5) Wrong. The debate about the FBI focused more on the fact that they don't do the leg work to run down leads. Good old fashion police work is what's needed.
<hr></blockquote>
Actually on this one he was right. The FBI and CIA were both heavily criticized, and they did complain about being dismantled by the Clinton administration and not having enough spies in the field to do the legwork.
[quote]
6) Wrong. There were some missed signs. Things could be better but there is no "smoking gun" that the FBI or CIA "knew" what was coming.
<hr></blockquote>
Well the jury is out on this one. I did a quick google search and found this site.
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/vonchloride/" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/vonchloride/</a>
It is a bit whacked, but the links are all to major news sources and some of them do point to this.
[quote]
7) Wrong. I don't think I need to explain why.
<hr></blockquote>
Part wrong. There have been many things put through congress that fall under this but they have not tried taking away our guns or freedom of speech. There have however been new wire-tapping laws and other such thing that half of what he is saying.
[quote]
8) Wrong. Seems the left is taking more heat than the right.
<hr></blockquote>
Actually, I have not seen this thankfully. So, wrong.
[quote]
9) Wrong. Didn't happen.
<hr></blockquote>
Not happening yet. Wrong.
[quote]
10) Too soon to tell. Looks like the US strategy is working well so far. We'll see if the next phase works out.
<hr></blockquote>
I agree, not yet, but we are already being primed for a long war that is already being likened to the war on drugs. The whole UN angle I am not seeing though.
[quote]
11) This seems right. But considering it looked like OBL was injured in the last video I think we got damn close. He wasn't hard to find just hard to get.
<hr></blockquote>
I call right on this one...
[quote]
12) UN gov' in Afghanistan seems right but the real trouble is from internal sources.
<hr></blockquote>
Looks right except it looks like China may have a role in this behind the scenes gov't setup more than the UN.
[quote]
13) I don't even know what to make of this. Seems like Washington got back to normal on all other issues.
<hr></blockquote>
Not sure about this, I am going to say no.
[quote]
He uses the end to sell his web site. Go buy the book "Do-It-Yourself Cancer Treatment"

This guy is looking more like a crack pot than an expert.<hr></blockquote>

I disagree that he is a crackpot, but his views were certainly interesting and got me thinking. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

-Edit to fix the quotes...

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
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post #16 of 30
[quote]"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."<hr></blockquote>

What good is liberty to me if I am killed by it? I'd rather have security than not in most cases. This is why we have police and military. This is why we have laws.

Do only anarchists enjoy liberty?

I'll take my partial liberty and live happily. If it ever comes a big problem for me, I will have to adapt or leave.

Ben Franklin's quote is a paradox. Liberty cannot be enforced. If you enforce something, you govern it. If you govern something, you take away essential liberty.

Sounds like stupid rhetoric to me.

Does a robber have the liberty and right to steal from me? Do I have the liberty to call the police? WTF? Essential liberty...hogwash.

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
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post #17 of 30
Hmm... very scary article. So much good reason to begin with. And so many wrong conclusions in the end...

Interesting to see a right-wing guy using so many left-wing references (orwell etc.) to prove his right-wing point...
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post #18 of 30
Since when did Orwell become a "left-wing reference"?
post #19 of 30
well, did you know that Orwell fought for the international brigades in the spanish civil war? Where he joined the anarcist fighters of the POUM in catalunea (very leftist). and stayed a leftist all his life.
Its quite fun to see how everyone think that Orwells critizism of totalitarian communism and totalitarian governments in general makes him a right-wing guy... while he was really a strong defender of the idea of anti-totalitarian socialism...
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post #20 of 30
I didn't say he was a right wing guy either.
post #21 of 30
Anyone that thinks we have lost the war on terror or that military is incompetent or that you are going to be stripped of your rights as human being because of this is a total jack off.

Game. Set. Match.


Later Guys,
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post #22 of 30
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>

What good is liberty to me if I am killed by it? I'd rather have security than not in most cases. This is why we have police and military. This is why we have laws.

Do only anarchists enjoy liberty?

I'll take my partial liberty and live happily. If it ever comes a big problem for me, I will have to adapt or leave.

Ben Franklin's quote is a paradox. Liberty cannot be enforced. If you enforce something, you govern it. If you govern something, you take away essential liberty.

Sounds like stupid rhetoric to me.

Does a robber have the liberty and right to steal from me? Do I have the liberty to call the police? WTF? Essential liberty...hogwash.

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


Eugene I don't think that is his point. Anarchy doesn't play much into this IMO. The first point would be that Franklin does distinguis between Liberty and "Essential Liberty" I look at Essential Liberty as the most Basic of Human Rights. Americans take for granted our ability to travel somewhat anonymously, to speak out against the Government or petition our grievances. We have so much and these rights have been paid in the Blood of our fellow Citizens. You won't be killed by Liberty but you will die a thousand deaths if you relinquish your rights. I don't think Ben Franklin meant to be rhetorical I just think he realized that lines must be drawn and you must stick to what you believe. I find it very telling that the Second Amendment states :
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

This clearly shows that our new Union realized how important the Security of our Union was, how important our newfound Rights were. Franklin and others realized that in times of duress the commonfolk would be willing to barter some of these rights back to our Gov. It may sound like hogwash but those Men back in the days were willing to meet their deaths(Patrick Henry) to ensure that their fellow Countrymen had these Essential Liberties. It's a shame that Patriotism today is merely flying a flag. Eugene I am willing to bet that you pay more taxes than they and yet have less rights. This may be for the good of all of us but then again that's for each person to individually decide.
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post #23 of 30
America doesn't exist in a vacuum. If we don't have a CIA or FBI to check on the bad guys we die. Very simple. Surviving species adjust to their surroundings. I'd rather survive, thank you...............
post #24 of 30
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>
I find it very telling that the Second Amendment states :
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

This clearly shows that our new Union realized how important the Security of our Union was, how important our newfound Rights were.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There are a number of interpretations of why the Second Amendment was drafted and what it's significance is. Here's one of the more radical ones:

<a href="http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/hidhist.htm" target="_blank">The Hidden History of the Second Amendment</a>

[quote]From the article:
<strong>In his recent U.C. Davis Law Review article "The Hidden History of the Second Amendment," Roger Williams University School of Law Professor Carl T. Bogus offers a thesis that could forever change the way Americans view the Second Amendment: James Madison wrote the Second Amendment to assure the southern states that Congress would not undermine the slave system by disarming the militia, which were then the principal instruments of slave control throughout the South.</strong>
<hr></blockquote>

Not to take anything away from the founders, but they did have their own interests and politics when they formed the US: it wasn't done solely out of an altruistic ideal of patriotism and liberty.

I think every generation has said that they have less freedom and pay more taxes than the last. I've heard it from my father and my grandfather, and I'm sure that I'll be saying it soon to my own children. Now, one could attribute it to a covert formation of a police state, or one could say that it's just the inevitable evolutionary result of the country formed two centuries ago. Who can say for certain?

What I think is certain, however, is that there will always have to be a balance struck between liberty and security. I do not say this out of a naieve belief in our government's good intentions, but rather out of a realistic assessment of the current times we live in. Yes, we must be careful in our efforts to secure our nation and ourselves from attack. Our liberties are not so easily reclaimed, once they have been relinquished.

But neither can we escape the reality that there are thousands on the other side of the world who would not hesitate to kill Americans without discrimination. Fortifying our country against those who would harm it is not our acquiescence to terror; it's the consolidation of our strength, and our defiance of those who seek to destroy us.

[ 01-25-2002: Message edited by: jesperas ]</p>
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post #25 of 30
Sounds like another assault on the 2nd by the left. They keep trying to attack the 2nd and make it seem like what it means is not what it was meant to mean. Or in this case that there was a sinister motive. They went as far as to make up data and draw bogus conclusions.

[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
post #26 of 30
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>They went as far as to make up date and draw bogus conclusions.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Heh, heh. That's pretty funny 'cause the article was written by a Bogus--Carl T. Bogus, to be exact.


OT: There's another lawyer with a practice a couple of blocks from where I live. Goes by his full name-Gerald B. Ogus. Must be a lawyer thing...
:cool:
I was promised flying cars. Where are the flying cars?
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I was promised flying cars. Where are the flying cars?
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post #27 of 30
I was thinking of a university prof that made up a bunch of data about gun ownership numbers way back when. He's been asked over and over to back it up and he wont. Others found out that data he cited was burned or otherwise destroyed. Add that the fake lynx data from the Forest Service and we see a trend.

[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
post #28 of 30
Americans should be allowed to own one handgun to protect their home and hunters should be allowed to buy hunting rifles. All guns should be registered. Thats it-no automatic guns at all, nothing else. Period...................................
post #29 of 30
[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>Americans should be allowed to own one handgun to protect their home and hunters should be allowed to buy hunting rifles. All guns should be registered. Thats it-no automatic guns at all, nothing else. Period...................................</strong><hr></blockquote>

Too bad the Constitution doesn't agree with you.
post #30 of 30
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>I was thinking of a university prof that made up a bunch of data about gun ownership numbers way back when. He's been asked over and over to back it up and he wont. Others found out that data he cited was burned or otherwise destroyed. Add that the fake lynx data from the Forest Service and we see a trend.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, I don't know if I'd go so far as to call the two instances you cited a "trend." I agree that people estimate, round, spin, extrapolate, or exagerate facts and/or figures to make their points, but I would say that the "right" is just as guilty of it as the "left."

Anyway, my intention for posting that article on the Second wasn't to start a debate about gun control, but to show that the founders may have had good intentions, but they weren't saints. Whether you accept the veracity of the Bogus article (pun indended) is up to your own sensibilities, but I think there is enough evidence to give interpretations like this one credibility, if not affirmation. Another example of the founders not being saints is the phrase, "All men are created equal." When this was originally written, the phrase "all men" didn't include black slaves, who were only considered equal to three-fifths of a white man, and barely included women, who didn't gain the right to vote until 1920.

[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: jesperas ]</p>
I was promised flying cars. Where are the flying cars?
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I was promised flying cars. Where are the flying cars?
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