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Rumors of Qualcomm-Apple iPhone deal persist

post #1 of 40
Thread Starter 
Apple and chip maker Qualcomm are said to currently be in talks for a future deal, fueling rumors of a possible 2010 iPhone arrangement that have surfaced in recent weeks.

Citing "market sources," Taiwanese trade publication DigiTimes reported Monday that Qualcomm is in talks with Apple "for interest in future cooperation." The report said that Qualcomm is concerned about its future as popular smartphones, including the iPhone, do not utilize its 3G handset chips. Fierce competition has allegedly "pressured" the chip maker into looking to make a deal with Apple.

Currently, Qualcomm supplies chips to Samsung and LG in Korea, and HTC in Taiwan. But the iPhone, BlackBerry, and Palm Pre do not rely on the company.

The iPhone currently utilizes an Infineon chipset for its GSM and 3G networking. Palm uses chips from Marvell, while RIM contracts with Freescale.

In November, two separate reports indicated that a Qualcomm-powered iPhone was in the works. One suggested the device would use a new hybrid chip created by the company to allow dual compatibility with both the AT&T and Verizon networks in the U.S.

However, another analyst said that although he has heard that a Qualcomm deal is in discussion, a dual-mode iPhone would be impossible to release in 2010, as it is not currently in field trials. Such a handset was predicted to arrive in 2011 at the earliest.

However, CMDA inventor Qualcomm has announced that it plans to release dual-carrier chips that would enable future phones to work on both CDMA/EVDO carriers like Verizon and Sprint, as well as rival 3GPP carriers that use UMTS/HSPA+ technology like AT&T and T-Mobile. The new chips also provide future support for LTE, the next-generation 3GPP standard that most carriers plan to begin testing for deployment globally in the next few years.

Analyst Ashok Kumar with Northeast Securities, recently told AppleInsider he believes that Verizon and Apple would like to release a CDMA handset at a contract-subsidized $99 price point, which would make the new dual-mode chip cost prohibitive. Qualcomm expects commercial launches of handsets based on its dual-mode chip to be introduced in the second half of 2010.
post #2 of 40
Ummm... Apple are evidently testing 2010's iPhone in States and in the Great Britain right now. How come chips, which are gonna be ready for commercial usage by the end of 2010, are for iPhone?

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post #3 of 40
a solution like what Qualcomm maybe proposing is going to be a power hog, with Apple doing everything that can do to increase battery performance I think the last thing they would want to do is put in a feature this uses lots of power and only benefits a few. not everyone need the ability to work on both types of networks.
post #4 of 40
Apple should make these things themselfs. I mean, its not as if they have no money to do it
post #5 of 40
Just for clarification for author of this news: Qualcomm is NOT inventor of CDMA. It is patent holder for CDMA. Original inventor is British Intelligence during WWII. How Qualcomm got into possesion of this patent is another story and it explains root of GSM creation if one wants to know some historic facts.
post #6 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

a solution like what Qualcomm maybe proposing is going to be a power hog, with Apple doing everything that can do to increase battery performance I think the last thing they would want to do is put in a feature this uses lots of power and only benefits a few. not everyone need the ability to work on both types of networks.

Why do you think these chips would be power hogs? If we look at the current Infineon chip you have multiband HSPA and Edge for voice and data on 65nm die. The new Qualcomm chips are 45nm. When you shrink the die you get more transistors and reduced power consumption.
post #7 of 40
there is NO need for LTE in phones in 2010--it is a nascent technology that will take several years to cover enough people. Even on VZ which has the fastest timetable. It makes sense for 2011/12.

Right now we have CDMA/GSM world phone chips in dozens of phones and it works fine. That is all Apple has to do to continue to sell just one version of the phone. In a few years they can add that Qualcomm LTE chip when 4G is actually available...
post #8 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

a solution like what Qualcomm maybe proposing is going to be a power hog, with Apple doing everything that can do to increase battery performance I think the last thing they would want to do is put in a feature this uses lots of power and only benefits a few. not everyone need the ability to work on both types of networks.

These chips are going to have to be made regardless. It's not as if Verizon is going to switch it's entire network overnight to LTE and instantly upgrade all of their customer's phones. So there needs to be some sort of hybrid chips that will work in devices from the cheap throwaway "dumb" phones to smartphones. I'm sure there are things that can be done to improve power efficiency. It's not as if both networks/transmitters need to be active all of the time. Only power up the one that's needed. Sure, it will probably be a little less efficient that a single-network chip; but that doesn't automatically mean it will be a power hog.

As for "only benefit a few"... I believe ATT represents roughly 1/2 of all iPhone sales, and Verizon has a larger customer base than ATT. Granted, many Verizon customers have already switched to ATT, but even if we assume only half the penetration rate into Verizon's user base as they've achieved with ATT, that's still represents an over 25% increase in iPhone sales.

I wouldn't exactly call that "a few."
post #9 of 40
Let's be reasonable about what actually happens.
Qualcomm's MSM7x30 family will be ready by the end of 2010. 2010's iPhone is tested right now and will probably be out in summer '10.
So, is MSM7x30 for 2011's iPhone? Telcos will roll out their LTE infrastructures in 2010-2012; and Apple will be producing CDMA phones, for LTE-capable 9200 series is not even being sampled?

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post #10 of 40
If Apple is in talks with Qualcomm then it would logically include a CDMA, EV-DO baseband. I agree it is too early for Apple to be putting LTE in the 2010 iphone why pay for silicon that you can't use. Apple currently sole sources all their basebands from Infineon and Infineon does not currently offer CDMA chipset. If Apple builds a CDMA phone with Qualcomm chips they then can play Qualcomm off Infineon for the transition to 4G LTE and get better pricing.
post #11 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by pats View Post

If Apple is in talks with Qualcomm then it would logically include a CDMA, EV-DO baseband. I agree it is too early for Apple to be putting LTE in the 2010 iphone why pay for silicon that you can't use.

The Qualcomm chip set with LTE has the same command set and pinout as the chip set without LTE so they could design the next iPhone to use the non-LTE chipset and switch to LTE at any time they want. In addition Verizon should have major metropolitan areas running LTE by summer 2010. That would make coming out with a LTE phone with Verizon a major win for both Apple and Verizon.

Bottom line is WHO KNOWS?
post #12 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timon View Post

Bottom line is WHO KNOWS?


the shadow knows!

but honestly, the new iphone is in testing. whats to say its not just CDMA phone?
post #13 of 40
Another possibility is that these "rumors" could be deliberate leaks to put pressure on Infineon to develop a CDMA chip for a multi-carrier iphone
post #14 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timon View Post

Bottom line is WHO KNOWS?

Bottom line is WILL THE USA HAVE MULTIPLE iPHONE MOBILE CARRIERS?

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post #15 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

a solution like what Qualcomm maybe proposing is going to be a power hog, with Apple doing everything that can do to increase battery performance I think the last thing they would want to do is put in a feature this uses lots of power and only benefits a few. not everyone need the ability to work on both types of networks.

exactly. not for the phone.

now a dual chip for another device, a larger device that could have a larger battery, that could perhaps have cell data as an option (and an unlocked one at that). that is what folks should be pondering.

also, does anyone really believe that Apple would reject CDMA 3 years ago but now turn it around and want to play with them. instead of unlocking to all available GSM carriers and focusing on the next gen of tech


i am not going to be shocked if there's no new iphone this year (aside from better battery tech and perhaps more storage) and this device in testing turns out to be the mythical tablet. which is rumored to be using the iphone OS as a base

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post #16 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by karajabola View Post

Another possibility is that these "rumors" could be deliberate leaks to put pressure on Infineon to develop a CDMA chip for a multi-carrier iphone

Apple would be still stuck paying royalties to Qualcomm since they pretty much own the IP for CDMA.
post #17 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

exactly. not for the phone.

now a dual chip for another device, a larger device that could have a larger battery, that could perhaps have cell data as an option (and an unlocked one at that). that is what folks should be pondering.

also, does anyone really believe that Apple would reject CDMA 3 years ago but now turn it around and want to play with them. instead of unlocking to all available GSM carriers and focusing on the next gen of tech


i am not going to be shocked if there's no new iphone this year (aside from better battery tech and perhaps more storage) and this device in testing turns out to be the mythical tablet. which is rumored to be using the iphone OS as a base

really apple rejected CDMA? news to me. specially since there is no proof apple rejected CDMA, or if vzw rejected them at first.
post #18 of 40
So how big are the world band radios in comparison to the current radios used in the 3GS?
How much power do they use in comparison to the radios in the 3GS?
How more would they cost and would Qualcomm still want their excessive 5.5% gross revenue take off the top which is why the world decided to not go with CDMA in the first place?


Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisTheXIV View Post

there is NO need for LTE in phones in 2010--it is a nascent technology that will take several years to cover enough people. Even on VZ which has the fastest timetable. It makes sense for 2011/12.

Right now we have CDMA/GSM world phone chips in dozens of phones and it works fine. That is all Apple has to do to continue to sell just one version of the phone. In a few years they can add that Qualcomm LTE chip when 4G is actually available...

Good post. NTT DoCoMo looks to be closest with the viable LTE network and they said they wont have an LTE phones until 2011. Theyll only have some PC data cards in 2010. Thats it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pats View Post

If Apple is in talks with Qualcomm then it would logically include a CDMA, EV-DO baseband. I agree it is too early for Apple to be putting LTE in the 2010 iphone why pay for silicon that you can't use. Apple currently sole sources all their basebands from Infineon and Infineon does not currently offer CDMA chipset. If Apple builds a CDMA phone with Qualcomm chips they then can play Qualcomm off Infineon for the transition to 4G LTE and get better pricing.

Im not so sure about that. Qualcomm is a patent holder for anything dealing with 3GSM or LTE. Perhaps even the largest patent holder, but dont quote me on that. Maybe they are looking to integrate the radios more or make their own and therefore need to get licenses from Qualcomm and others to do so.
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post #19 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

exactly. not for the phone.

now a dual chip for another device, a larger device that could have a larger battery, that could perhaps have cell data as an option (and an unlocked one at that). that is what folks should be pondering.

also, does anyone really believe that Apple would reject CDMA 3 years ago but now turn it around and want to play with them. instead of unlocking to all available GSM carriers and focusing on the next gen of tech


i am not going to be shocked if there's no new iphone this year (aside from better battery tech and perhaps more storage) and this device in testing turns out to be the mythical tablet. which is rumored to be using the iphone OS as a base

The pace of the mobile phone industry pretty much guarantees that Apple will introduce new phone models in 2010. Moore's Law predicts that the number of transistors doubles every two years so why not take advantage of these advances whether it is a new processor core or GPU or camera lens. Even if they look about the same they can get more for the same price of silicon with each generation. That said if they are bringing out a new SDK/Software in Mar and a new handset in June we would expect to see testing toward the end of 2009.

As far as CDMA if Apple plans to offer a phone on Verizon in 2010/2011 it will need a CDMA chip for voice. A voice standard for LTE does not currently exist a proposed technical proposal is available Verizon One Voice Initative but obviously if they are still discussing the standard to expect a finalized standard in 2010 is optimistic.
post #20 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

How more would they cost and would Qualcomm still want their excessive 5.5% gross revenue take off the top which is why the world decided to not go with CDMA in the first place?

If CDMA is on the way out, then theoretically the CMDA patents will be dropping in value and presumably Qualcomm will lower their licensing fees.

(Now if I just deleted the "if" "theoretically" and "presumably" then I could be a paid industry analyst, too! )
post #21 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

So how big are the world band radios in comparison to the current radios used in the 3GS?
How much power do they use in comparison to the radios in the 3GS?
How more would they cost and would Qualcomm still want their excessive 5.5% gross revenue take off the top which is why the world decided to not go with CDMA in the first place?



Good post. NTT DoCoMo looks to be closest with the viable LTE network and they said they won’t have an LTE phones until 2011. They’ll only have some PC data cards in 2010. That’s it.



I’m not so sure about that. Qualcomm is a patent holder for anything dealing with 3GSM or LTE. Perhaps even the largest patent holder, but don’t quote me on that. Maybe they are looking to integrate the radios more or make their own and therefore need to get licenses from Qualcomm and others to do so.

I would think it a big leap for Apple to go their own on the baseband processor. At some point, but if we are expecting PA SEMI to design the baseband then I would expect Apple to buy some IP, somebody like InterDigital so they wouldn't have to pay huge royalties to the likes of Qualcomm, Nokia et. al.

As far as royalties rumor said Apple was paying only 1.6% to Qualcomm under the current agreement not 5.5%. That probably because they are using Interdigital & Infineon IP in the Infineon baseband.
post #22 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by pats View Post

As far as CDMA if Apple plans to offer a phone on Verizon in 2010/2011 it will need a CDMA chip for voice. A voice standard for LTE does not currently exist a proposed technical proposal is available Verizon One Voice Initative but obviously if they are still discussing the standard to expect a finalized standard in 2010 is optimistic.

Verizon is using planning on using CDMA for voice indefinitely at this point. It uses good audio codec, its lower power than LTE and its well established. I think future voice for LTE will simply be VoIP with QoS. There are other things you can do to make it real time but I think that keeping it IP is the going to be standard for complete LTE networks.
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post #23 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

If CDMA is on the way out, then theoretically the CMDA patents will be dropping in value and presumably Qualcomm will lower their licensing fees.

(Now if I just deleted the "if" "theoretically" and "presumably" then I could be a paid industry analyst, too! )

Guess what another name for the 3G standard use by the Iphone is? WCDMA and as was said earlier in the thread Qualcomm hold many of the key patents for 3G and 4G so Apple will pay royalties to Qualcomm for whoever's chipset they use.
post #24 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post

If CDMA is on the way out, then theoretically the CMDA patents will be dropping in value and presumably Qualcomm will lower their licensing fees.

There are plenty of Qualcomm patents in 3GSM and LTE specs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pats View Post

As far as royalties rumor said Apple was paying only 1.6% to Qualcomm under the current agreement not 5.5%. That probably because they are using Interdigital & Infineon IP in the Infineon baseband.

That is certainly more reasonable.
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post #25 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by pats View Post

Guess what another name for the 3G standard use by the Iphone is? WCDMA and as was said earlier in the thread Qualcomm hold many of the key patents for 3G and 4G so Apple will pay royalties to Qualcomm for whoever's chipset they use.

WCDMA is for the air interface, but yes, they old lots of patents. Even with the TD-SCDMA that China uses Qualcomm still holds patents. Qualcomm may be losing ground but they are still well integrated into the future of mobile network communications.
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post #26 of 40
Quote:
as it is not currently in field trials

Can someone verify this? Why would it be out of the question? Are field trials assumed to occur in the US and the US only? What about the Australian outback?
post #27 of 40
DigiTimes really isn't a credible news source.
post #28 of 40
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/bu...30telecom.html

Most Verizon customers do not roam into GSM only territory. Even if they do, why would they want to pay the huge roaming fee of $1+/min? Cheaper to get a $30 used GSM phone with cheaper SIM card.

If Apple has done milking ATT, and wants to go with Verizon it is better off doing a CDMA phone only. Buy a CDMA/EVDO chipset from QCOM and negotiate a royalty break from QCOM like everybody else. This way they do not have pay to the UMTS group.

It does not make sense to sell CDMA/UMTS phones all over the world. The chips set would be expensive, bulky, plus would need separate power amps, antennas, etc. Then the combined royalties. That is why we do not see too many of these world phones.

Anyway, LTE may get deployed a lot faster than expected. Huawei, the Chinese upstart is sellng dirt cheap LTE Basestations. This is just part of the cost... then there is fiber network, and routers which Huawei also makes. The devil here is the handset chips and their power consumption and that has not started field trials. I guess the Chinese will get to hack into our telecom networks.
post #29 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL View Post

DigiTimes really isn't a credible news source.

I agree with you.
post #30 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

WCDMA is for the air interface, but yes, they old lots of patents. Even with the TD-SCDMA that China uses Qualcomm still holds patents. Qualcomm may be losing ground but they are still well integrated into the future of mobile network communications.

ABI Report


Quote:
According to ABI Research , a market research firm, Qualcomm is the leading patent-holder in 4G wireless communications, after recording 24 percent of declarations surrounding LTE, as well as 16 percent of the 26,000 patents that have potential relevance to 4G technologies generally, including WiMAX. Other players in the LTE field include Interdigital (18 percent), Huawei (10 percent), LG (9 percent), Nokia (9 percent) and Samsung (News - Alert) (7 percent). When considering the whole 4G environment Samsung takes second spot with 12 percent of all patent filings, and Nokia comes third with 6 percent.
post #31 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by pats View Post

ABI Report

You only posted a link and quoted text from that link that reinforces both our points. Im not sure I understand what you are getting at.
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post #32 of 40
Although I think it is unlikely that Apple will release a phone that works on both CDMA and GSM, it is nice to dream. Wouldn't it be great to have some choice as a consumer? I'm pretty tired of the carriers running everything when it comes to phone selection. If one model of the iPhone worked on all 4 major carriers in the US, I think we'd see far more plan competition and, possibly lower plan costs and less-restrictive contracts. Apple could do for US consumers' experience in carriers what the original iPhone did for consumers' experience on the handset itself - bust it wide open and force competition.

If carriers had to compete based on service, terms, and price rather than making us choose our personal lesser of 4 evils, I think we'd all be better off. As a consumer handing over piles of money every month, I should be able to ask my carrier, "What have you done for me lately?"

Additionally, if the iPhone worked equally well across carriers, then other handset manufacturers would have to do the same to compete. I'd love to get the phone and carrier that fit my needs best - separately - and be able to keep my phone and switch between carriers when they don't hold up their end of the bargain, when I move, and when my finances dictate. Paying an early termination fee PLUS buying a new phone is enough to keep me complacent and push competition to the every-two-years timeframe.
post #33 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You only posted a link and quoted text from that link that reinforces both our points. Im not sure I understand what you are getting at.

You had a question on who owned 4G patent pool. This is a source for estimates. As far as quoting and linking. Some folks like to see the source. I don't think I disagree with your thoughts on Qualcomm and the potential for an Iphone using Qualcomm technology.
post #34 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by pats View Post

You had a question on who owned 4G patent pool. This is a source for estimates. As far as quoting and linking. Some folks like to see the source. I don't think I disagree with your thoughts on Qualcomm and the potential for an Iphone using Qualcomm technology.

Not in the post you quoted, but its good to know the percentages. Ill have to tag that link for the future. Thanks.
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post #35 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Currently, Qualcomm supplies chips to Samsung and LG in Korea, and HTC in Taiwan. But the iPhone, BlackBerry, and Palm Pre do not rely on the company.

Five minutes of google-ing would have show you that this statement is completly false.

Go pick up any Blackberry on Verizon and it will say "Qualcomm 3G CMDA" on the back. Go find one of many "tear down" articles for the Palm Pre and you will see that the baseband processor is a Qualcomm chip.

Just because a phone uses a TI or Samsung ARM proc for its main CPU does not mean it doesn't use Qualcomm chips for the radio.

Do a little research next time so you dont look retarded...
post #36 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


Currently, Qualcomm supplies chips to Samsung and LG in Korea, and HTC in Taiwan. But the iPhone, BlackBerry, and Palm Pre do not rely on the company.

The iPhone currently utilizes an Infineon chipset for its GSM and 3G networking. Palm uses chips from Marvell, while RIM contracts with Freescale.


This makes me question the validity of this article. Both Research in Motion and Palm utilize Qualcomm basebands. The Pre uses a Qualcomm baseband and most Blackberrys including the Storm use Qualcomm as well. Bad info...
post #37 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirViper321 View Post

This makes me question the validity of this article. Both Research in Motion and Palm utilize Qualcomm basebands. The Pre uses a Qualcomm baseband and most Blackberrys including the Storm use Qualcomm as well. Bad info...

Oops didn't see the comment before mine. Anyways Qualcomm has the vast majority of basebands in key smartphones exluding Apple and Nokia. They're even in most Android phones being released.
post #38 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirViper321 View Post

Oops didn't see the comment before mine. Anyways Qualcomm has the vast majority of basebands in key smartphones exluding Apple and Nokia. They're even in most Android phones being released.

It’s a double error since 3GSM and LTE both contain many patents held by Qualcomm, so even if the chip doesn’t say Qualcomm on it every cellphone maker still “rely on the company."
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post #39 of 40
Take a look at the links above, there is a great deal of information out there. I will likely buy the 3G iPhone when it comes out, but might wait to see if there are some applications to buy that will fill in the missing pieces first.

Good luck with your decision.
post #40 of 40
Spammers: now with more insanity.
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