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Apple files countersuit against Nokia

post #1 of 278
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The battle between cell phone makers Apple and Nokia escalated Friday, as Apple announced that it has filed a countersuit alleging the Finnish company has infringed on 13 patents.

In October, Nokia sued Apple over the alleged use of patented wireless standards in the iPhone. Nokia has argued that the iPhone infringes on GSM and wireless LAN patents it owns. That suit involves 10 patents owned by Nokia.

In a brief press release Friday, Apple announced its countersuit as a "response" to Nokia's own legal action.

"Other companies must compete with us by inventing their own technologies, not just by stealing ours," said Bruce Sewell, Apple's General Counsel and senior vice president.

Update: In its defense, Apple has argued that Nokia's patents are all related to standards, which means they have been committed to be licensed freely and without discrimination by Nokia. Nokia's own complaint seeks special licensing terms from Apple, and access to the company's own patents.

Apple has alleged that Nokia is attempting to obtain more money from it than other companies, plus rights to Apple's intellectual property -- all after the Finnish company has committed itself to nondiscriminatory licensing.

"In dealing with Apple, Nokia has sought to gain an unjust competitive advantage over Apple by charging unwarranted fees to use patents that allegedly cover industry compatibility standards and by seeking to obtain access to Apple's intellectual property," the suit reads. "Nokia needs access to Apple's intellectual property because Nokia has copied and is now using that patented technology."

In its court filing, Apple said Nokia "remained focused on traditional mobile wireless handsets with conventional user interfaces," while the iPhone revolutionized the way consumers use smartphones.

"As a result, Nokia has rapidly lost share in the market for high-end mobile phones. Nokia has admitted that, as a result of the iPhone launch, "the market has changed suddenly and [Nokia was] not fast enough changing with it. In response, Nokia chose to copy the iPhone, especially its enormously popular and patented design and user interface."

It goes on to quote Anssi Vanjoki, Nokia's executive vice president and general manager of multimedia, at an event in 2007 when he compared Nokia's products to the iPhone: "[If] there is something good in the world, we copy with pride."

"True to this quote," Apple said, "Nokia has demonstrated its willingness to copy Apple's iPhone ideas as well as Apple's basic computing technologies, all while demanding Apple pay for access to Nokia's purported standards essential patent. Apple seeks redress for this behavior."

The patents in question owned by Apple are (via Digital Daily):

No. 5,634,074 : Serial I/O device identifies itself to a computer through a serial interface during power on reset then it is being configured by the computer
No. 6,343,263 B1 : Real-time signal processing system for serially transmitted data
No. 5,915,131 : Method and apparatus for handling I/O requests utilizing separate programming interfaces to access separate I/O services
No. 5,555,369: Method of creating packages for a pointer-based computer system
No. 6,239,795 B1: Pattern and color abstraction in a graphical user interface
No. 5,315,703: Object-oriented notification framework system
No. 6,189,034 B1: Method and apparatus for dynamic launching of a teleconferencing application upon receipt of a call
No. 7,469,381, B2: List scrolling and document translation, scaling, and rotation on a touch-screen display
No. RE 39, 486 E: Extensible, replaceable network component system
No. 5,455,854: Object-oriented telephony system
No. 7,383,453 B2: Conserving power by reducing voltage supplied to an instruction-processing portion of a processor
No. 5,848,105: GMSK signal processors for improved communications capacity and quality
No. 5, 379,431: Boot framework architecture for dynamic staged initial program load
The latest development confirms experts' predictions that Apple would allege its own, separate infringements against Nokia. The approach has been employed before to allow companies more leverage in negotiations.

The best scenario for both companies to avoid a lengthy suit is to reach a licensing deal outside of the courts.

The fight between the companies could become even more complex, experts said, spilling over to Europe and possibly ending up in the hands of the U.S. International Trade Commission.

Nokia claims ownership of technology related to Global System for Mobile communications (GSM); wireless local area network (WLAN); and Universal Mobile Telecommunications System (UTMS). Nokia's suit specifically cites 10 patents that cover wireless data, speech coding, security and encryption. It has alleged that all iPhone models released since 2007 infringe on these patents.

Analyst Gene Munster with Piper Jaffray believes Nokia's endgame is to obtain 1 percent to 2 percent, or $6 to $12, for every iPhone sold.

Apple previously acknowledged the Nokia suit in its annual Form 10-K filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. In that document, the iPhone maker said it would "vigorously" defend itself against Nokia's claims.
post #2 of 278
Looks like they got all their IP in a row and are on offense, ready to prove the validity of their patents. It's about time.
post #3 of 278
That's more like it. Battle of the titans!
80 million iPhones by 2012. That's only 15% of the market.

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80 million iPhones by 2012. That's only 15% of the market.

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post #4 of 278
Game on. This should be interesting.
post #5 of 278
I never understood how suddenly everyone has a multi touch smart phone after Apple claims to have invented the technology. Can someone explain?
post #6 of 278
Dude, multi -touch has been around since the 90's- have you ever used a Citibank ATM? Apple would like you to think they invent everything. Even the new mouse is nothing revoutionary. It's just the way Apple presents it that's different.
post #7 of 278
Apple's ongoing problem of other industry players fighting Apple with photocopiers . . .

Responding to a lawsuit brought against the company by Nokia, Apple today filed a countersuit claiming that Nokia is infringing 13 Apple patents.

"Other companies must compete with us by inventing their own technologies, not just by stealing ours," said Bruce Sewell, Apple's General Counsel and senior vice president, in the press release.


Source: Apple Inc.

Too true.

I wouldn't want to mess with Apple legal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerseymac View Post

I never understood how suddenly everyone has a multi touch smart phone after Apple claims to have invented the technology. Can someone explain?

Apple has a particular implementation of it. And it has nothing to do with ATMs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Dude, multi -touch has been around since the 90's- have you ever used a Citibank ATM?

That isn't multi-touch.
post #8 of 278
Looks like Apple isn't denying it stole from Nokia just saying Nokia stole something else.
post #9 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post




That isn't multi-touch.

Then what is it? A screen with sensors is what then?
PC's use them all the time now since Windows Vista - are you saying PCs/Windows stole that screen technology from Apple too?
post #10 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerseymac View Post

I never understood how suddenly everyone has a multi touch smart phone after Apple claims to have invented the technology. Can someone explain?

Also, large companies infringe on other large companies patents all the time, but are often ignored due to fears of escalating into a war such as this fine example.

It will be one expensive fight.
post #11 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Apple's ongoing problem of other industry players fighting Apple with photocopiers . . .

Responding to a lawsuit brought against the company by Nokia, Apple today filed a countersuit claiming that Nokia is infringing 13 Apple patents.

"Other companies must compete with us by inventing their own technologies, not just by stealing ours," said Bruce Sewell, Apple's General Counsel and senior vice president, in the press release.


Source: Apple Inc.

Too true.

I wouldn't want to mess with Apple legal.




Apple has a particular implementation of it. And it has nothing to do with ATMs.



That isn't multi-touch.

BINGO
APPLE has multi multi touch swipe tech patents
hundreds of patents
f--nokia
crush nokia
boil their bones


go apple
whats in a name ? 
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whats in a name ? 
beatles
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post #12 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

BINGO
APPLE has multi multi touch swipe tech patents
hundreds of patents
f--nokia
crush nokia
boil their bones


go apple

Disturbing... Hate much?
post #13 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Then what is it? A screen with sensors is what then?

As far as I understand it, multi-touch is the means by which different actions can be invoked on a touch screen by use of multiple points of contact. I've never used a Citibank ATM but I'd hazard a guess that they only allow single point gestures?
post #14 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Then what is it? A screen with sensors is what then?
PC's use them all the time now since Windows Vista - are you saying PCs/Windows stole that screen technology from Apple too?

Okay, I thought TechStud knew his stuff but since he seems to have missed this...

A screen with touch sensors is a touch screen, nothing more. One press to one button equivalent.

Apple's multi-touch implementation is a touch screen or laptop trackpad that can register several touches at the same time, as well as "gestures" - where the multiple touches change position on the screen to form the basis of a command. It can tell the difference between a single finger, two fingers, three, or four, and trigger different responses depending on how many fingers are used, or if two fingers "pinch" together or pull apart for zoom, or twist to rotate. I'm certain I've seen several Apple commercials displaying this functionality, and of course I use them often on my phone and MacBook Pro.

A little more responsive than the average CitiBank ATM.
post #15 of 278
I don't see in the story what the specific infringements are. Any sources?
post #16 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Dude, multi -touch has been around since the 90's- have you ever used a Citibank ATM? Apple would like you to think they invent everything. Even the new mouse is nothing revoutionary. It's just the way Apple presents it that's different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Then what is it? A screen with sensors is what then?
PC's use them all the time now since Windows Vista - are you saying PCs/Windows stole that screen technology from Apple too?

Multi-touch is different from what you are describing which is touch-screens. As you say a touch screen has been around for ages but multi-touch has not.

In a traditional touch screen you can press on a location and it will register. With multi-touch you can touch two things at the same time and move them and both with register at the same time.

Touching $100 on an ATM is touch screen, pinch zooming on an iPhone with two fingers is multi-touch. Getting multi-touch to work correctly and reliably was a tricky thing to get working and that is why although touch screens have existed for years multi-touch has not as it requires a better kind of touch panel and improved software.

Here are some detailed examples of the difference between Multi-touch and a standard touchscreen.

Edwin
post #17 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerseymac View Post

I never understood how suddenly everyone has a multi touch smart phone after Apple claims to have invented the technology. Can someone explain?

because you can't protect an idea. even in patents 'idea patents' are being tossed out left and right.

heck idea copying is in part the core of Apple. they take an idea and do it better. PMPs, smart phones, etc in particular. and if the rumors are true, 2010 we'll see them do the 'netbook' better. and no one can stop them from using the idea.

so you can't protect 'multi-touch screen on a phone' or 'phone that can also read email', 'phone that can also play music' etc. just the technology behind how you do it. Which Apple is saying Nokia did. they didn't take the idea, they took the tech.

there is also something called a 'look and feel' patent which covers interfaces and such, Apple has filed suits a couple of times with phone and computer companies over that one.

but what confuses me is that I read somewhere that Nokia and Qualcomm have a sort of 'joint custody' over the collection of GSM patents owed by both (and a few other patents involved in various standards). if this is true, why hasn't Qualcomm tossed in to back up their buddy. wouldn't they benefit as well.
post #18 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Looks like Apple isn't denying it stole from Nokia just saying Nokia stole something else.

Why would Apple even mention another lawsuit against them when filing their own? It's irrelevant to the proceedings.
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post #19 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Apple's ongoing problem of other industry players fighting Apple with photocopiers . . .

Responding to a lawsuit brought against the company by Nokia, Apple today filed a countersuit claiming that Nokia is infringing 13 Apple patents.

"Other companies must compete with us by inventing their own technologies, not just by stealing ours," said Bruce Sewell, Apple's General Counsel and senior vice president, in the press release.


Source: Apple Inc.

Too true.

I wouldn't want to mess with Apple legal.
.

But that has nothing to do with Nokia's lawsuit. This is just an Apple diversion- an entirely separate issue/case.
post #20 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

because you can't protect an idea. even in patents 'idea patents' are being tossed out left and right.

heck idea copying is in part the core of Apple. they take an idea and do it better.


So true.. So true..

This will end in a stalemate, or at best, Apple getting spanked with a huge fine.

Nokia has nothing to worry about.
post #21 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

Why would Apple even mention another lawsuit against them when filing their own? It's irrelevant to the proceedings.

So then a separate case - Apple's case has no denying they stole from Noklia then.
post #22 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by casey4147 View Post

Okay, I thought TechStud knew his stuff but since he seems to have missed this...

A screen with touch sensors is a touch screen, nothing more. One press to one button equivalent.

Apple's multi-touch implementation is a touch screen or laptop trackpad that can register several touches at the same time, as well as "gestures" - where the multiple touches change position on the screen to form the basis of a command. It can tell the difference between a single finger, two fingers, three, or four, and trigger different responses depending on how many fingers are used, or if two fingers "pinch" together or pull apart for zoom, or twist to rotate. I'm certain I've seen several Apple commercials displaying this functionality, and of course I use them often on my phone and MacBook Pro.

A little more responsive than the average CitiBank ATM.

OK- but Apple's tech was built upon the touch tech (which Apple no way invented)- and that there can be no denying.
post #23 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

but what confuses me is that I read somewhere that Nokia and Qualcomm have a sort of 'joint custody' over the collection of GSM patents owed by both (and a few other patents involved in various standards). if this is true, why hasn't Qualcomm tossed in to back up their buddy. wouldn't they benefit as well.

If I recall Nokia got sued by Qualcomm, so no alliance there.
post #24 of 278
Part of Nokia's suit

5. Prior to filing this Complaint, Nokia has made various offers to Apple for the F/RAND terms and conditions of a license agreement under which each of the patents-in-suit could be licensed either individually or together with other Nokia essential patents (i.e., a portfolio license). In its offers to Apple, Nokia has specified both a portfolio rate and an average per-patent royalty rate which Apple could have accepted within a reasonable time for each of the patents-in-suit.
post #25 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Dude, multi -touch has been around since the 90's- have you ever used a Citibank ATM? Apple would like you to think they invent everything. Even the new mouse is nothing revoutionary. It's just the way Apple presents it that's different.

but dude, are you really going to play dumb on this as well....you are in IT and you are trying to tell me you do not know the difference of mutual capacitance touch-screen/self capacitance screen that apple has created and patented vs. a single-input touch screen that has been around since the 90's?
post #26 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Game on. This should be interesting.

More like CHECKMATE or STALEMATE?
post #27 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

Dude, multi -touch has been around since the 90's- have you ever used a Citibank ATM? Apple would like you to think they invent everything. Even the new mouse is nothing revoutionary. It's just the way Apple presents it that's different.

but dude, are you really going to play dumb on this as well....you are in IT and you are trying to tell me you do not know the difference of mutual capacitance touch-screen/self capacitance screen that apple has created and patented vs. a single-input touch screen that has been around since the 90's?
post #28 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by casey4147 View Post

Okay, I thought TechStud knew his stuff but since he seems to have missed this...

what in on earth gave you that impression! 6000+ posts of fiction.
post #29 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

OK- but Apple's tech was built upon the touch tech (which Apple no way invented)- and that there can be no denying.

Apple DID NOT invent Multitouch.
Apple acquired a small company named FingerWorks which did invent it.
post #30 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by iphonedeveloperthailand View Post

That's more like it. Battle of the titans!

And just another reason why it's all but impossible for any fledgeling company to enter into todays technology arena and even hope to succeed. Image if Apple were just being started today?

..They would have been sued into oblivion long before they even got to decide on the colors for their corporate logo..

Just another reason why the entire patent system needs to be overhauled, I'm not saying _ALL_ patents are evil but the patent mine field as it exists today make the market all but impossible for a fledgeling company to survive in and the only hope they have to to survive long enough to get noticed and bought up by somebody else.

Somehow when MS and Apple started they didn't hope an prey they simply got taken over by someone else.
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post #31 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud OK- but Apple's tech was built upon the touch tech (which Apple no way invented)- and that there can be no denying.

What, are you going to backtrack on your statements until there's some small fragment left that you can claim was true? You did the same thing when claiming that Apple never gives anything away for free, only to be corrected numerous times.
post #32 of 278
How likely is some sort of cross patent deal between the two?
post #33 of 278
What are the patents that Nokia has infringed upon?

Or is this just a merit-less counter lawsuit?



Is the new Apple building going up in North Carolina actually to house Apple's legal team?


Why are there spy cameras in all Apple Stores recording people's buying behavior patterns?


Hell, lets just let all the dirt out...
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post #34 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleSux View Post

So true.. So true..

This will end in a stalemate, or at best, Apple getting spanked with a huge fine.

Nokia has nothing to worry about.

In 1997, five years after the lawsuit was decided, all lingering infringement questions against Microsoft regarding the Lisa and Macintosh GUI as well as Apple's "QuickTime piracy" lawsuit against Microsoft were settled in direct negotiations. Apple agreed to make Internet Explorer their default browser, to the detriment of Netscape. Microsoft agreed to continue developing Microsoft Office and other software for the Mac over the next five years. Microsoft also purchased $150 million of non-voting Apple stock, helping Apple in its financial struggles at the time. Both parties entered into a patent cross-licensing agreement.[5][6]

In recent years, Apple has resumed threats of litigation in this area. Before the release of the Aqua GUI for Mac OS X, Apple threatened litigation against a Windows skin named WinAqua which was meant to emulate Apple's GUI based on a Mac OS X beta release.[7] Similarly, Stardock released a desktop enhancement program for Windows, named DesktopX, which was similar to Aqua. Apple, however, demanded the company remove, "anything that even remotely looks like Aqua.

Seems MicroSux can not even come up with an original name for their products...LOL...
kinda of like the Zune, MicroSux Store with complete Guru and layout with the help of Apple....Nokia new 3D multi-touch will probably suck as much as all their other phones...which is why they are suing Apple for its multi-touch implementation...but guess what, you need something better than the crappy Symbian to run it, which is why they are turning to Linux...but with all Nokia endeavors... they look/feel/responsively cheap knockoffs...
post #35 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by teckstud View Post

OK- but Apple's tech was built upon the touch tech (which Apple no way invented)- and that there can be no denying.

Actually, that's not correct. The touch technology used in a common ATM uses a different sensing mechanism than that used in the iPhone. I recall one of the numerous iPhone clones used the same ATM technology, and was hated for it, as it required you to linger on each press to ensure the OS recognized that you had hit a button.

ATM's typically use surface capacitance or resistive touch technology. iPhone uses Projected capacitance.
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post #36 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

What, are you going to backtrack on your statements until there's some small fragment left that you can claim was true? You did the same thing when claiming that Apple never gives anything away for free, only to be corrected numerous times.

Yes I can.
And I haven't been corrected as you can't prove Apple gave me anything for free and that it wasn't the sudio or label. You have now been corrected.
post #37 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

Apple DID NOT invent Multitouch.
Apple acquired a small company named FingerWorks which did invent it.

Well they should actually consider themselves lucky.... If Apple didn't buy them up that little startup would have been crushed by the lawyers of any number of technology companies.

Does anyone really think 'FingerWorks' could have ever made it on their own?
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post #38 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

What are the patents that Nokia has infringed upon?

Or is this just a merit-less counter lawsuit?



Is the new Apple building going up in North Carolina actually to house Apple's legal team?


Why are there spy cameras in all Apple Stores recording people's buying behavior patterns?


Hell, lets just let all the dirt out...

MY GOD THERE ARE CAMERAS IN BANKS and ATMS watching everyone's deposits and withdrawals, it has nothing to do with SECURITY!
post #39 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

Actually, that's not correct. The touch technology used in a common ATM uses a different sensing mechanism than that used in the iPhone. I recall one of the numerous iPhone clones used the same ATM technology, and was hated for it, as it required you to linger on each press to ensure the OS recognized that you had hit a button.

ATM's typically use surface capacitance or resistive touch technology. iPhone uses Projected capacitance.

Cool- now that's somebody who knows their stuff- unlike many others on here. Thank you for that info, DJRumpy. So Apple is now liscensing that tech out to everyone now? Doesn't that seem a bit counter-productive?
post #40 of 278
Before this thread goes through 5 pages on multitouch and who invented, can I point out that Nokia's handsets don't use multitouch at the moment.

I'm not entirely convinced by Apple's argument here. Whilst I'm sure Nokia has copied the basic premise of Apple's interface (finger-driven touchscreen), they differ wildly in their current execution. Nokia's touch-based interface is very clearly designed around the concepts of its existing S60 smartphone interface (much to its hindrance). The icons and layouts were around long before the iPhone.

I'm not saying that Apple's patents are without merit. I'm sure there's at least 13 areas where Nokia infringes but I don't believe that the patents cover fundamental aspects of the phone's operation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robodude

How likely is some sort of cross patent deal between the two?

Very likely, I'd say. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was Nokia's aim all along.
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