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Apple's 'Worldwide Loyalty Team' ensures secrets stay secret

post #1 of 41
Thread Starter 
Gizmodo highlights the story of Apple's 'Gestapo' Loyalty Team as relayed by a Cupertino employee known simply as Tom.

The story of Apple's "Worldwide Loyalty Team" starts simply: "Among some employees, they are known as the Apple Gestapo, a group of moles always spying in headquarters and stores, reporting directly to Jobs and Oppenheimer. Here's how they hunt people down."

With tongue implanted somewhat-in-cheek, Gizmodo relayed the harrowing tale Tuesday, of an Apple employee known by the name of Tom.

According to the source, Apple takes leaks very seriously. When a leak is suspected, a very specific protocol is followed, involving the confiscation of all cell phones and a total blackout of all unmonitored communication. "It is like a gag order, and if the employee does not want to participate they are basically asked to leave and never come back," says Tom.

"The same Worldwide Loyalty Team does many other things to keep everyone in check, from searching out the email history of every employee, to seeding fake images to catch potential leaks and diffuse the hype about some product introductions."

The story ends with a allusion to Apple's famous '1984' commerical, "I wonder if the special forces have ever chased anyone though the Infinite Loop campus, dressed in their full regalia: I wouldn't be surprised."
post #2 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Gizmodo highlights the story of Apple's 'Gestapo' Loyalty Team as relayed by a Cupertino employee known simply as Tom.

With tongue implanted somewhat-in-cheek, Gizmodo relayed the story Tuesday, of an Apple employee known by the name of Tom.

The story of Apple's "Worldwide Loyalty Team" starts simply: "Among some employees, they are known as the Apple Gestapo, a group of moles always spying in headquarters and stores, reporting directly to Jobs and Oppenheimer. Here's how they hunt people down."

According to the source, Apple takes leaks very seriously. When a leak is suspected, a very specific protocol is followed, involving the confiscation of all cell phones and a total blackout of all unmonitored communication. "It is like a gag order, and if the employee does not want to participate they are basically asked to leave and never come back," says Tom.

"The same Worldwide Loyalty Team does many other things to keep everyone in check, from searching out the email history of every employee, to seeding fake images to catch potential leaks and diffuse the hype about some product introductions."

The story ends with a allusion to Apple's famous '1984' commerical, "I wonder if the special forces have ever chased anyone though the Infinite Loop campus, dressed in their full regalia: I wouldn't be surprised."

The secret's good with me Tom!
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post #3 of 41
Ahh the scales have fallen off of Jesus Diaz' eyes - he is disillusioned and bitter now that a disguntled and former employee alleges extreme security measures to stem leaks at Apple. "Tom" should count himself lucky to have had such a mild experience.

Having worked on DARPA projects for a manufacturer, and having been involved in coding discovery material for a major litigation support firm, makes that look like a piece of cake compared to the draconian controls employed elsewhere. Most companies now have rapid response teams, and NDAs that are very tightly enforced. You don't like it you don't work for those firms. There are many that don't have these controls because much of what they do - like universities. You can usually be on the cutting edge of developing something without the crazy lock-down. But if the government takes an interest, that can change. And the down thread commentary is wonderful - read everything to the bitter end. It is both delightfully naif and shocking I tell you!
post #4 of 41
Nice, Sounds like some 007 .....
post #5 of 41
I work for the gov't. We get poly'd, and piss tested. This story, while scary to the outsider, is not even close to how it is in the real world.
post #6 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Gizmodo highlights the story of Apple's 'Gestapo' Loyalty Team

Prince/Dan has a more scathing reaction to the Gizmodo article at RoughlyDrafted.
post #7 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockpop View Post

Prince/Dan has a more scathing reaction to the Gizmodo article at RoughlyDrafted.

Haha, that's hilarious. Dan really threw the toys out of the pram.
post #8 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

I work for the gov't. We get poly'd, and piss tested. This story, while scary to the outsider, is not even close to how it is in the real world.

i thought you worked for finland
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whats in a name ? 
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post #9 of 41
Way too many holes in that story.
post #10 of 41
Duh? Gizmodo's article seems paid by Psystar. You see, you don't need to report to SJ in person to chase spooks.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

Reply
post #11 of 41
Here's a real fact that Apple does employ such tactics and would give some credibility to this story. The excerpt came from a person who had worked for Apple corporate for nearly 20 years.

To understand how Apple functions, you have to get over any assumptions that Apple employees are trusted at all. During my nearly twenty years at Apple, it was clear that as time went on any product problems or even solutions to serious issues were often kept from field sales employees. That was not the case in early years at Apple.

Once Steve came back things changed, it seemed that we could never find out about critical issues from the company until they exploded publicly. We would only learn about problems by being beaten to a pulp by a customer, and after couple of people at Apple denied the existence of the problem. It almost goes without saying that we would then find out that the problem was well known in Cupertino, but being kept a secret so as not to cause any customer ripples.

Actually I had my son who at the time was a Computer Science student in college sign up for the Apple Student Developer program. He would get the disks before we did, and I would take them to the office for our team.

Usually we got the stuff we needed eventually, but when you have a customer with a critical problem and a new OS release can fix the issue, waiting five or six days can seem like forever.

A good example of the company paranoia was when we participated in the 2001 FOSE (Federal Office Systems Expo) in Washington, a reporter named Dan Carney did an article for Federal Computer Week. The article "Not making a federal case," had this to say.

Microsoft Corp.'s Bill Gates and Dell Computer Corp.'s Michael Dell are known to visit their federal customers to discuss the issues important to them. That has contributed to the success of both companies' products in the market. But Apple seems to view federal customers somewhat askance.

Apple's federal team is dedicated to its task, but it appears it is not receiving the necessary support from the corporate headquarters in Cupertino, Calif. To the obvious frustration of the federal team members, they were prohibited from speaking for this story.

Instead, the company issued a statement describing the commitment of its federal sales force and the popularity of its products in the market.

The reason no federal people were permitted to speak? Apple has approved spokespeople only for its core businesses: the consumer, commercial and education markets, according to the company.

Well some folks from corporate PR absolutely flipped out over that comment and demanded to know which members of my team let the reporter know that people were frustrated. Had a name been given, I'm sure the person would have been on the carpet and likely fired.

Carney had wanted to talk about the federal market and Apple after much arm twisting gave him a generic written statement about how wonderful Apple products are.

Actually the reporter was the most frustrated person around since he had spent nearly two months begging to talk to someone about Apple products. I remember his pleading emails to us asking for help in getting someone to return his phone calls. He even told me that he believed they deliberately were calling him late at night so they wouldn't have to talk to him.

Now ordinarily I wouldn't believe that, but being an Apple employee I've seen that tactic used on a regular basis by Cupertino employees who didn't want to talk to a real person. In fact one night I was working late in my home office. That, in case you haven't figured it out, happens a lot with dedicated Apple employees. My phone rang, and I answered it thinking that it was wife calling from upstairs to tell me that I should give it up for the night. It was someone from corporate hoping to leave me a message so they could dodge the real issue. They were nearly speechless when I answered the phone. I don't think it was the time that one of our contracts people called me and accused me of sending a photocopy of a contract instead of an original to headquarters. Apparently they had spit on the signature and were concerned that it didn't smear.

If you get the feeling that Apple is a world unto itself, you're absolutely right. When you're inside the Apple culture it even looks kind of normal, but once outside of it, you realize how whacky and counterproductive much of it is.

Giving Apple employees the tools, all the information, and the trust to do their jobs correctly should be a priority. It isn't. Now executive compensation, that's a top priority, but I guess most folks have figured that out by now.

One of the most frustrating things that we had to endure was Cupertino sending seed units to the press. We were absolutely forbidden to help them understand the products if they ran into problems. The corporate folks were convinced that we would screw up the product review. Of course the opposite often happened. The reviewer would have problems getting the Mac connected to their network or trouble configuring Outlook. Calling back to California for help would be playing time zone roulette which rarely worked. The result was that many reviews could have been even better with a little field hand holding that was forbidden. The corporate view was that it was much better to let the reviewer figure out it himself as opposed to the risk that the field might say something that actually got printed after contact with the press.

All of this is somewhat interesting as an aside on the culture of Apple. Secrecy within Apple even prompted a recent front page WSJ article, " At Apple, Secrecy Complicates Life But Maintains Buzz."

Yet the real challenges as some of the comments on "Think Secret" indicate is that Apple won't work with the users until they release a product. The result is that there are bugs that show up almost immediately in a new release.

I am one of the people who believe that if Apple is to be taken seriously, they're going to have to start doing widespread public betas of OS X. If they don't, people are continually be frustrated with paying money for a product that faces a raft of updates in the first few months.

I don't how anyone at Apple could seriously think a public beta of Leopard is going to spill the beans to Microsoft which is having a hard enough time getting anything out the door, much less something which stuff that Apple is showing.

Apple also needs to take seriously customer support not just at the AppleCare level but at the level of every single Apple employee. Apple has so few employees that people (outside of California) almost freak out when they find out that you are an Apple employee. They immediately expect you to be able to help them with their Mac problems. That's pretty hard to do when your company is following the rules mushroom management.

One of the more interesting facts about Apple employees is that they often get so frustrated waiting for new hardware which they can use for demonstrations to customers, that they end up buying Apple hardware out of their pocket. That's one of the reasons I have basement full of Macs.

I have talked to a number of employees this year who had bought their own MacBook Pros or MacBooks because they were tired of waiting for the company to refresh their systems. I can remember one particular system engineer who has been with Apple almost from the beginning. He practically begged me to get him a boxed set of Final Cut Pro complete with documentation so he could demonstrate it to customers. In following what has to be the most counterproductive set of guidelines around, that request for one copy of Final Cut Pro which had an internal cost of almost nothing had to go all the way up to Phil Schiller for approval. Even funnier almost all requests like that were turned down.

Ask an Apple employee where they get their Apple news, and a surprising number of them will say rumor sites. I can remember finding out about many a product that had been released on rumor sites before we got any information internally.

If you're going to use Apple products, know that your best informed resource might well be someone other than an Apple employee.
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post #12 of 41
I think the secrecy is perfectly okay, and unless you play in an important role in whatever is being released then those are the only people who should know about it. Even if it's within your own company.

(For example) If I have separate teams working on various projects with deadlines in mind. Why should the iPhone Team know about what the Mac Hardware team is doing? It's none of their business & more importantly it distracts from my employees getting their jobs done right

Apple's management style is quite perfect. Some people just don't get it.
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post #13 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockpop View Post

Prince/Dan has a more scathing reaction to the Gizmodo article at RoughlyDrafted.

yeah, comparing this security team to nazi germany is very nearly outrageous. try working for the government or a military contractor.

i know a person who has to pass armed guards to enter the office every day. how gizmodo can think apple's system is similar to a secret police force is beyond me.
post #14 of 41
I didn't think these methods were extreme at all. Simple fact of NDA's. Don't like it? Quit.

These folks who leak info are lucky they aren't fined into oblivion. I thought the comparison to Nazi hit squads was a bit tasteless though. Business is NOT a democracy. It's dog eat dog, bottom line, and about as anti-hippie as you can get.

Bitter much?
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post #15 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockpop View Post

Prince/Dan has a more scathing reaction to the Gizmodo article at RoughlyDrafted.

Quote:
Jesus Diaz certainly isnt the sharpest knife in the pundit drawer and has a particular attraction to writing up rabidly sensationalized blather as a master link-baiter

post #16 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by akhomerun View Post

yeah, comparing this security team to nazi germany is very nearly outrageous. try working for the government or a military contractor.

i know a person who has to pass armed guards to enter the office every day. how gizmodo can think apple's system is similar to a secret police force is beyond me.

And now you know two. Well, know as well as an internet forum allows... Our guards are technically their own police force.

While the analogy itself makes sense, the use of "Gestapo" wasn't a good choice.

But I have to give it to Gizmodo for the picture from Raiders of the Last Ark and photoshopping the Apple logo onto his palm. That guy was...creepy.
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post #17 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Gizmodo highlights the story of Apple's 'Gestapo' Loyalty Team as relayed by a Cupertino employee known simply as Tom....

Shame on AppleInsider for promoting this bullshit "story." Almost nothing Gizmodo implies here is true, everyone believes it, (judging by the comments), and now AppleInsider is joining in. This is how crappy Internet rumours get started. Shame on you.
post #18 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileMe View Post

Here's a real fact that Apple does employ such tactics and would give some credibility to this story. The excerpt came from a person who had worked for Apple corporate for nearly 20 years.

To understand how Apple functions, you have to get over any assumptions that Apple employees are trusted at all. During my nearly twenty years at Apple, it was clear that as time went on any product problems or even solutions to serious issues were often kept from field sales employees. That was not the case in early years at Apple.

Once Steve came back things changed, it seemed that we could never find out about critical issues from the company until they exploded publicly. We would only learn about problems by being beaten to a pulp by a customer, and after couple of people at Apple denied the existence of the problem. It almost goes without saying that we would then find out that the problem was well known in Cupertino, but being kept a secret so as not to cause any customer ripples.

Actually I had my son who at the time was a Computer Science student in college sign up for the Apple Student Developer program. He would get the disks before we did, and I would take them to the office for our team.

Usually we got the stuff we needed eventually, but when you have a customer with a critical problem and a new OS release can fix the issue, waiting five or six days can seem like forever.

A good example of the company paranoia was when we participated in the 2001 FOSE (Federal Office Systems Expo) in Washington, a reporter named Dan Carney did an article for Federal Computer Week. The article "Not making a federal case," had this to say.

Microsoft Corp.'s Bill Gates and Dell Computer Corp.'s Michael Dell are known to visit their federal customers to discuss the issues important to them. That has contributed to the success of both companies' products in the market. But Apple seems to view federal customers somewhat askance.

Apple's federal team is dedicated to its task, but it appears it is not receiving the necessary support from the corporate headquarters in Cupertino, Calif. To the obvious frustration of the federal team members, they were prohibited from speaking for this story.

Instead, the company issued a statement describing the commitment of its federal sales force and the popularity of its products in the market.

The reason no federal people were permitted to speak? Apple has approved spokespeople only for its core businesses: the consumer, commercial and education markets, according to the company.

Well some folks from corporate PR absolutely flipped out over that comment and demanded to know which members of my team let the reporter know that people were frustrated. Had a name been given, I'm sure the person would have been on the carpet and likely fired.

Carney had wanted to talk about the federal market and Apple after much arm twisting gave him a generic written statement about how wonderful Apple products are.

Actually the reporter was the most frustrated person around since he had spent nearly two months begging to talk to someone about Apple products. I remember his pleading emails to us asking for help in getting someone to return his phone calls. He even told me that he believed they deliberately were calling him late at night so they wouldn't have to talk to him.

Now ordinarily I wouldn't believe that, but being an Apple employee I've seen that tactic used on a regular basis by Cupertino employees who didn't want to talk to a real person. In fact one night I was working late in my home office. That, in case you haven't figured it out, happens a lot with dedicated Apple employees. My phone rang, and I answered it thinking that it was wife calling from upstairs to tell me that I should give it up for the night. It was someone from corporate hoping to leave me a message so they could dodge the real issue. They were nearly speechless when I answered the phone. I don't think it was the time that one of our contracts people called me and accused me of sending a photocopy of a contract instead of an original to headquarters. Apparently they had spit on the signature and were concerned that it didn't smear.

If you get the feeling that Apple is a world unto itself, you're absolutely right. When you're inside the Apple culture it even looks kind of normal, but once outside of it, you realize how whacky and counterproductive much of it is.

Giving Apple employees the tools, all the information, and the trust to do their jobs correctly should be a priority. It isn't. Now executive compensation, that's a top priority, but I guess most folks have figured that out by now.

One of the most frustrating things that we had to endure was Cupertino sending seed units to the press. We were absolutely forbidden to help them understand the products if they ran into problems. The corporate folks were convinced that we would screw up the product review. Of course the opposite often happened. The reviewer would have problems getting the Mac connected to their network or trouble configuring Outlook. Calling back to California for help would be playing time zone roulette which rarely worked. The result was that many reviews could have been even better with a little field hand holding that was forbidden. The corporate view was that it was much better to let the reviewer figure out it himself as opposed to the risk that the field might say something that actually got printed after contact with the press.

All of this is somewhat interesting as an aside on the culture of Apple. Secrecy within Apple even prompted a recent front page WSJ article, " At Apple, Secrecy Complicates Life But Maintains Buzz."

Yet the real challenges as some of the comments on "Think Secret" indicate is that Apple won't work with the users until they release a product. The result is that there are bugs that show up almost immediately in a new release.

I am one of the people who believe that if Apple is to be taken seriously, they're going to have to start doing widespread public betas of OS X. If they don't, people are continually be frustrated with paying money for a product that faces a raft of updates in the first few months.

I don't how anyone at Apple could seriously think a public beta of Leopard is going to spill the beans to Microsoft which is having a hard enough time getting anything out the door, much less something which stuff that Apple is showing.

Apple also needs to take seriously customer support not just at the AppleCare level but at the level of every single Apple employee. Apple has so few employees that people (outside of California) almost freak out when they find out that you are an Apple employee. They immediately expect you to be able to help them with their Mac problems. That's pretty hard to do when your company is following the rules mushroom management.

One of the more interesting facts about Apple employees is that they often get so frustrated waiting for new hardware which they can use for demonstrations to customers, that they end up buying Apple hardware out of their pocket. That's one of the reasons I have basement full of Macs.

I have talked to a number of employees this year who had bought their own MacBook Pros or MacBooks because they were tired of waiting for the company to refresh their systems. I can remember one particular system engineer who has been with Apple almost from the beginning. He practically begged me to get him a boxed set of Final Cut Pro complete with documentation so he could demonstrate it to customers. In following what has to be the most counterproductive set of guidelines around, that request for one copy of Final Cut Pro which had an internal cost of almost nothing had to go all the way up to Phil Schiller for approval. Even funnier almost all requests like that were turned down.

Ask an Apple employee where they get their Apple news, and a surprising number of them will say rumor sites. I can remember finding out about many a product that had been released on rumor sites before we got any information internally.

If you're going to use Apple products, know that your best informed resource might well be someone other than an Apple employee.


sounds about right

Mac's are nice for home use but this is why corporations are going to stay away. Microsoft has been very open in the last few years to work with customers

everyone releases buggy products but some of the ones that Apple released lately makes you wonder if they do any kind of QA
post #19 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

sounds about right

Mac's are nice for home use but this is why corporations are going to stay away. Microsoft has been very open in the last few years to work with customers

everyone releases buggy products but some of the ones that Apple released lately makes you wonder if they do any kind of QA

I thought it was a load of tripe. Apple is consistently at the top of the charts for customer support, and quality. They are reaping huge profits in a depression.

From my perspective, if I own Apple stock, I'd say they were doing it right, contrary to that huge post (I refuse to quote an entire page of text).
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post #20 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Shame on AppleInsider for promoting this bullshit "story." Almost nothing Gizmodo implies here is true, everyone believes it, (judging by the comments), and now AppleInsider is joining in. This is how crappy Internet rumours get started. Shame on you.

All that might have been true (Gizmodo is known to be providing sensational yet untrue accounts, though). Still, there's nothing wrong with those security enforcement measures. If your company gives you a phone, it usually means they expect you're using it in their favor. It's their phone after all.

We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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We mean Apple no harm.

People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

I thought it was a load of tripe. Apple is consistently at the top of the charts for customer support, and quality. They are reaping huge profits in a depression.

From my perspective, if I own Apple stock, I'd say they were doing it right, contrary to that huge post (I refuse to quote an entire page of text).

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

sounds about right

Mac's are nice for home use but this is why corporations are going to stay away. Microsoft has been very open in the last few years to work with customers

everyone releases buggy products but some of the ones that Apple released lately makes you wonder if they do any kind of QA

This is where my text came from. He's worked for Apple up until 2006.http://viewfromthemountain.typepad.c...le_a_cult.html

Really good reading material, he can appear bitter at times but it's well understood.

My Personal opinion is that Apple does no wrong (It does have issues at times, but they solve them in an Apple way that works for everybody. )
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post #22 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

I thought it was a load of tripe. Apple is consistently at the top of the charts for customer support, and quality. They are reaping huge profits in a depression.

From my perspective, if I own Apple stock, I'd say they were doing it right, contrary to that huge post (I refuse to quote an entire page of text).


depends what kind of support. reading macrumors i would want to buy a mac for home because if it breaks i'm confident about the apple warranty and service at the store. someone even said they replaced a Mac 10 times due to dead pixels.

for corporate use you have to work with customers and open up the OS internals to them when they have a problem. Microsoft has connect.microsoft.com for bug reporting and they will work with you in identifying bugs in the software and passing it on to development for fixing. MS also works with big customers like the US government and fortune 500 companies to find out what features they want and add them to their desktop and server products.

and MS employees are encouraged to blog and be active in forums to help others out with the software. i've had more than one problem solved by asking in the forums or searching the MSDN blogs

Apple on the other hand refuses to acknowledge problems and will fix a lot of issues without any documentation
post #23 of 41
One of the key issues for many people who complain about controls around their workplace is the fact that information is power. There are few people who, when at work will not stop to hear some juicy insider gossip when available. Likewise, its hard not to try and impress friends and acquaintances with insider knowledge, especially working for a company like Apple, for example. Companies often have a well defined interest in controlling information to protect themselves from predation by competition and from government regulatory scrutiny, among other things. In the fast paced and agressive world of technology development, one slip can cost you the game, literally. Look at all the diggin being done now around trying to ferret out what Apple is going to do next. People are reviewing network logs to see if new tech is out and about in California - knowing that the Apple executives usually have prototypes in hand. Anyone who claims that a completely open and transparent approach to information control should be the rule is sadly misguided, and displaying a fundamental lack of understanding of how things work in competitive industries.

The bottom line for many companies, and I know this first hand, is that field sales people as referenced in MobileMe's excerpt, for example, are unfortunately viewed as information liabilities. Some field sales people will compromise company confidentiality in order to seal a deal, or gain some leverage with the customer. Again, first hand experience, and this is not condemnation or accusations directed at all field sales people, but those few who poison the position for everyone else. The fact remains that all corporate security measures can be and often are necessary evils. MobileMe's account is in fact mild compared to sensitive government positions, companies that have proprietary holding that they are protecting, financial companies you name it.

The point being, go into these operations understanding what the reality is and if you cannot accept the restrictions go somewhere else.
post #24 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

depends what kind of support. reading macrumors i would want to buy a mac for home because if it breaks i'm confident about the apple warranty and service at the store. someone even said they replaced a Mac 10 times due to dead pixels.

for corporate use you have to work with customers and open up the OS internals to them when they have a problem. Microsoft has connect.microsoft.com for bug reporting and they will work with you in identifying bugs in the software and passing it on to development for fixing. MS also works with big customers like the US government and fortune 500 companies to find out what features they want and add them to their desktop and server products.

and MS employees are encouraged to blog and be active in forums to help others out with the software. i've had more than one problem solved by asking in the forums or searching the MSDN blogs

Apple on the other hand refuses to acknowledge problems and will fix a lot of issues without any documentation

I'm not sure I buy that. For instance, the upgrade to 10.6 broken USB audio when running Windows in a virtual machine. Apparently Apple admitted to the problem to VMWare, yet never published any information on it. If one of the vmware folks hadn't let slip in the thread, we still wouldn't know who actually owned the problem. I suspect they do work with vendors, they just don't publicize or they require NDA's for issues, neither of which is an unusual practice. By extension I would think the relationship with businesses wouldn't be that different, but I'm guessing here. We've only just started opening up our environment to iPhones and I don't have a lot of experience working with them directly.

IMO, the only things holding Apple back from penetration into the business market are status quo and application compatibility. It's a big investment for a company to move to even a new vendor, let alone an entirely new OS. I don't think the battle will be won by switchers. I think it will be won with new businesses and only a small segment of switchers in the mix.
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post #25 of 41
in the last 2 years i've had 2 cases with Microsoft SQL server support where they said we found a bug, they refunded our $245 fee and the fix came out a few months later in a hotfix. if you register at connect.microsoft.com you can report bugs as well and it will go straight to development. there is a SQL Customer Advisory team with a blog and they answer questions and give tips.

point is that Microsoft came a long way from the days when SP5 for NT4 broke Lotus Notes and other apps and no one knew why. they are also a long way from the days of hiding security issues. they now work with the researchers to fix bugs as they are reported

big customers want details why there is an issue. they don't want to read it on a forum from someone posting secretly

Symantec/Veritas is another example. i'm always getting bug alerts saying how a certain version of netbackup won't backup your data in some situations or when used with other products. in some cases i get an alert about an upcoming patch that hasn't been released yet.
post #26 of 41
Apple leakers should be hunted down and given the steel-toed boot to the head. Whistle blowers would be a different matter altogether, but leakers are simply traitors.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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GOA

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post #27 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

i thought you worked for finland

Point to one post where I said I work for FInland. Living in a particular country does not necessarily denote working for that particular country. From the same inference, I could come to the conclusion that you work for the planet Neptune.

You had to realize this. Seriously. Anyway, I do not work for "Finland".
post #28 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by MobileMe View Post

I can remember one particular system engineer who has been with Apple almost from the beginning. He practically begged me to get him a boxed set of Final Cut Pro complete with documentation so he could demonstrate it to customers. In following what has to be the most counterproductive set of guidelines around, that request for one copy of Final Cut Pro which had an internal cost of almost nothing had to go all the way up to Phil Schiller for approval. Even funnier almost all requests like that were turned down.

That may be true for system engineers, but those who need access to (almost any) OSX software, internally, have it. On very fast pipes, too.
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post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

I work for the gov't. We get poly'd, and piss tested. This story, while scary to the outsider, is not even close to how it is in the real world.

Agreed, people forget that they have to sign little non-disclosure agreements when they agree to begin employment with a company like Apple. Apple has every right to protect their intellectual property. In this day & age they have to get a little 007 to keep the secrets safe.

If you don't like the policies of the company you work for then find another job. If the policies are illegal or evil then report it to HR. If HR is corrupt & evil report it to the government, but for crying out loud don't try to explain yourself to me when your first reaction is to go whining to the press!
post #30 of 41
but then they can't feel cool and like james bond if they can't leak product details to blogs and websites
post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Point to one post where I said I work for FInland. Living in a particular country does not necessarily denote working for that particular country. From the same inference, I could come to the conclusion that you work for the planet Neptune.

You had to realize this. Seriously. Anyway, I do not work for "Finland".

i wonder why you are so defensive about FINLAND . Its ok for now . we will ignore finland and say you work for sweden and maybe ikea moved to finland and nokia moved to sweden
overnight ,
ok
happy now
here i give you a smiley apple face to show our friendship

no one is from neptune
that is so silly i am from europa

g nite and don't let the bed bugs bite

peace 9
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post #32 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

i wonder why you are so defensive about FINLAND . Its ok for now . we will ignore finland and say you work for sweden and maybe ikea moved to finland and nokia moved to sweden
overnight ,
ok
happy now
here i give you a smiley apple face to show our friendship

no one is from neptune
that is so silly i am from europa

g nite and don't let the bed bugs bite

peace 9

Is anyone else completely lost as to what this sub-thread is about, or is it just me?
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post #33 of 41
I think this is a fluff of a story. If you work or have worked for a technology company, and you are in product development, you are expected to keep mum about that product. Why? Because your company is usually competing with a rival technology firm.

That is not to say that management can't go overboard. I recall a situation where one employee was dating an employee at a rival firm, and was inappropriately investigated by the employer. The employee sued, and the employee's company had to pay court-ordered damages.

I would be more concerned about being snooped on, without probable cause, by private firms or the government with regard to my non-work activities as a private citizen. For example, retail outlets that insist you use their card so that they can do targeted ads based upon your purchasing history at that outlet. Or governmental snooping without judicial oversight.

I can't understand why some people believe, that because Microsoft does public betas for Windows, Apple should do the same with the Mac OS. Come onWindows needs extensive beta testing because of the varied hardware platforms it runs on, and that's how Microsoft deals with that situation. Apple has tightly integrated their hardware with their software, so they can reasonably choose to do non-public betas. On occasion, Apple will do a public beta Safari 4 is an example.

Nullis in verba -- "on the word of no one"

 

 

 

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Nullis in verba -- "on the word of no one"

 

 

 

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post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post

Is anyone else completely lost as to what this sub-thread is about, or is it just me?

agreed i am just as confused
certain people my friend come here and make fantastic agitating posts for no other reason than to start shit up
so this dude above me comes here on a nokia topic and acts like he's the king of finland and nokia phones are soooo great and iphones and apple suck sooo much ..

yet we now see he cannot even speak finnish or know the lap dog mating ritual .

my mission /our mission is too turn him away from the dark side and become a good citizen here at AI

HE does seem kinda cool ......


peace

9
whats in a name ? 
beatles
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whats in a name ? 
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post #35 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BertP View Post

I think this is a fluff of a story. If you work or have worked for a technology company, and you are in product development, you are expected to keep mum about that product. Why? Because your company is usually competing with a rival technology firm.

That is not to say that management can't go overboard. I recall a situation where one employee was dating an employee at a rival firm, and was inappropriately investigated by the employer. The employee sued, and the employee's company had to pay court-ordered damages.

I would be more concerned about being snooped on, without probable cause, by private firms or the government with regard to my non-work activities as a private citizen. For example, retail outlets that insist you use their card so that they can do targeted ads based upon your purchasing history at that outlet. Or governmental snooping without judicial oversight.

I can't understand why some people believe, that because Microsoft does public betas for Windows, Apple should do the same with the Mac OS. Come onWindows needs extensive beta testing because of the varied hardware platforms it runs on, and that's how Microsoft deals with that situation. Apple has tightly integrated their hardware with their software, so they can reasonably choose to do non-public betas. On occasion, Apple will do a public beta Safari 4 is an example.

how true
how true

apple like all concerns need to keep a long lead time for fresh new innovative products to have a market to themselves.
this allows apple to better define products /suppler's/ supplies and such.

some companies leak far ahead of time all there secrets in hope of stopping people from buying a device UNTIL their secret future device is finally made .. YET we all know they NEVER DELIVER on the hype //

APPLE creates hype by silence. APPLE has fired or got fired hundred upon hundreds of big mouth's.

APPLE made a simple rule ?? no ?? quiet .. whisper... never reveal or comment even on wrong predictions
NEVER
YES this is a fluff story A I needs way more eye balls .

peace


9
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beatles
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whats in a name ? 
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post #36 of 41
This story explains the reactions I get when I wear and give to Apple employees (for exceptional service) the "I've been to the Mother Ship" black T-shirts from Cupertino.

I don't know why they would dream to move and work in smoggy, crowded and hot southern California, but it gets my computers fixed real fast.


Sure I've been to Cupertino, but I'm no spy.

Unless they don't give me what I want of course...


After all, all those dome cameras you see in the ceiling, that's for behavioral monitoring, not just for security. Most people don't know that, so the moles are used to initiate a reaction. And the moles are monitored by the cameras, so they do what they are supposed to do, not just saying they did.


Yes Apple Stores are monitored like casinos, that explains the sheep fondling the nearly ineffective glossy screens. People are attracted to shiny objects.
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post #37 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

agreed i am just as confused
certain people my friend come here and make fantastic agitating posts for no other reason than to start shit up
so this dude above me comes here on a nokia topic and acts like he's the king of finland and nokia phones are soooo great and iphones and apple suck sooo much ..

yet we now see he cannot even speak finnish or know the lap dog mating ritual .

my mission /our mission is too turn him away from the dark side and become a good citizen here at AI

HE does seem kinda cool ......


peace

9

Normally I would ignore you because you have not said one thing that makes sense, but now it seems as though you are not even trying. You would rather speculate than deal with facts so here goes.

1. I never said that Nokia is so great and Apple is shit. This is part of your delusional imagination. Please back up your delusion with a fact, i.e. post where I said such.
2. The only shit that I started was when I asked a question about who needed who's technology more. JeffDM responded and I issued an apology to him in this regard. You need to know more about what you are talking before you point a finger at someone.
3. I never said I was the king of FInland. Do you have a problem by making assumptions that just because someone lives in one country that a) they are from that country, b) king of that country, c) loyal to the phone manufacturer of that country? It seems so as you made this leap all in one post. Again, I invite you to provide proof.
4. What does my speaking Finnish have to do with anything? I never said I do speak Finnish. Again, another ill-informed assumption on your part. So far you are Zero for a lot in regards to what you think I know or what I don't know, where I am from, what I do, etc...
5. You want to switch me away from which particular dark side? Again, another assumption.

While I do not see you as rabid as most on this site you are way off base.

Forgot to add the face.
post #38 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post


Best post in thread.
post #39 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BertP View Post

I think this is a fluff of a story. If you work or have worked for a technology company, and you are in product development, you are expected to keep mum about that product. Why? Because your company is usually competing with a rival technology firm.

That is not to say that management can't go overboard. I recall a situation where one employee was dating an employee at a rival firm, and was inappropriately investigated by the employer. The employee sued, and the employee's company had to pay court-ordered damages.

I would be more concerned about being snooped on, without probable cause, by private firms or the government with regard to my non-work activities as a private citizen. For example, retail outlets that insist you use their card so that they can do targeted ads based upon your purchasing history at that outlet. Or governmental snooping without judicial oversight.

I can't understand why some people believe, that because Microsoft does public betas for Windows, Apple should do the same with the Mac OS. Come onWindows needs extensive beta testing because of the varied hardware platforms it runs on, and that's how Microsoft deals with that situation. Apple has tightly integrated their hardware with their software, so they can reasonably choose to do non-public betas. On occasion, Apple will do a public beta Safari 4 is an example.

if you haven't noticed there have been some problems in shipping products in the last year that should have been caught in QA. and the whole varied hardware thing about Windows is from 10 years ago. there are a few hardware makers left and the way apple changes hardware every generation they have the same issues as Microsoft. look at all the intel macs ever made and they all have different hardware
post #40 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post

if you haven't noticed there have been some problems in shipping products in the last year that should have been caught in QA. and the whole varied hardware thing about Windows is from 10 years ago. there are a few hardware makers left and the way apple changes hardware every generation they have the same issues as Microsoft. look at all the intel macs ever made and they all have different hardware

I have noticed. The Apple eco-system is growing more complex. Witness the MobileMe fiasco. The problems with SL drivers after some low-level changes and re-factorings to Mac X OS 10.6. But, I don't see the equivalence of Apple's QA situation to MS's QA situation.

Microsoft does the OS, and the PC box assemblers provide the drivers for their particular combination of components. But the QA is spread across independent organizations. IMO, MS must, by necessity, do public betas of their OS. (I'll ignore the legacy support that MS provides for IT). I give MS credit for their herculean task of getting to where Windows 7 now is. I won't say any more, because I'm not a Windows user.

Apple still has more control over it's eco-system than MS does due to tight hw/sw integration under a single management. And they do continuous improvement in the form of a steady stream of point releases, which customers can incorporate via Apple's updating scheme.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continu...vement_Process

MS does service packs further apart. I prefer the continuous improvement approach as practiced by Apple and others (Toyota, etc.).

Quite a few years back, I saw a guy (PhD. in Mathematics) scribbling on a whiteboard mathematical expressions that were incomprehensible to me. "What are you doing?", I said. He responded, "I'm pursuing the Holy Grail working out the technique to mathematically prove the correctness of computer programs. No one has ever been able to do it!" Let me know if progress has been made in that direction. I know that the ADC has a 'static analyzer' of computer programs. It's a new part of QA at Apple, I would think.

Nullis in verba -- "on the word of no one"

 

 

 

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