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post #81 of 99
1/23/10 at 1:07pm
I'd like to note that you are operating under a ridiculously constrained definition of the word "war."

It doesn't take governments for their to be war. What we had was an armed conflict between two groups. That is a freakin war.

To posit that this corporation was simply treating it as some sort of corporate maneuver and that is wasn't also war is ridiculous.


Quote:
So if the corporation is in control then you shouldn’t assume that she should be imprisoned for not doing a job that she wasn’t employed to do and that even Parker was reluctant to give the go ahead to do. You’re still focusing on this being a military operation with Quartich as the supreme commander.

What? That is PRECISELY what she was employed to do. Provide security and disperse the natives if they won't cooperate. Parker was reluctant to give the order because he clearly realized he was authorizing and act of WAR. Once that ball was rolling, Parker was totally emasculated, and Quartich had de facto control until the enemy was defeated.
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post #82 of 99
1/23/10 at 1:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

What? That is PRECISELY what she was employed to do. Provide security and disperse the natives if they won't cooperate. Parker was reluctant to give the order because he clearly realized he was authorizing and act of WAR. Once that ball was rolling, Parker was totally emasculated, and Quartich had de facto control until the enemy was defeated.

Providing security doesn’t mean she is required to participate in xenocide. Why does choosing to not fire on the people that they sought to attack mean that she can’t quit her job. THEY ARE NOT MILITARY. THEY ARE PRIVATE. Ex-military get employed by companies all the time in the here-and-now and, guess what, they can quit there job or choose not to due a duty that doesn’t suit them without being imprisoned.

Enough of this. You’re floundering around trying to make it into something it’s not when it was explained several time through the course of the film they were corporate security, not military.
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post #83 of 99
1/23/10 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Providing security doesn’t mean she is required to participate in xenocide. Why does choosing to not fire on the people that they sought to attack mean that she can’t quit her job.

But that is what her job became, and Parker acquiesced to that becoming securities job. Quartich is in charge of security, ergo he was in charge of Trudy. That character would have thrown her into the brig with the others without even giving it a second thought. The only person who could even think about overruling him is Parker, and Parker sure as hell wasn't overruling anything Quartich wanted to do at that point.

Corporate security, run by ex-military when THE ONLY THING PRESENT IS THE CORPORATION, will naturally operate like the military would, and desertion would be strictly punished.

I don't know why you are so stuck on that distinction, because in the context of the film, the distinction is meaningless.
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post #84 of 99
1/24/10 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I would love to see what they could do with the CS Lewis Space Trilogy. Perelandra would be beautiful!

My favorite was " Out Of The Silent Planet ". I loved the discriptions of CS Lewis' Mars!

The possibilities are great for many of those novels to be given the video treatment.

Just as long as they are handled with care.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #85 of 99
1/24/10 at 5:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

But that is what her job became, and Parker acquiesced to that becoming securities job. Quartich is in charge of security, ergo he was in charge of Trudy. That character would have thrown her into the brig with the others without even giving it a second thought. The only person who could even think about overruling him is Parker, and Parker sure as hell wasn't overruling anything Quartich wanted to do at that point.

Corporate security, run by ex-military when THE ONLY THING PRESENT IS THE CORPORATION, will naturally operate like the military would, and desertion would be strictly punished.

I don't know why you are so stuck on that distinction, because in the context of the film, the distinction is meaningless.

You think you are so brilliant and have it right, but the facts show you have it exactly wrong. In the universe the scriptwriter wrote Trudy didn't get thrown in the brig. Period.

There are holes in the plot, but Trudy leaving the Home Tree early really isn't one of them. Posters have given a half dozen justifications consistent with the rest of the script and those justifications plausibly show the paths of how Trudy doesn't get slammed in the brig for desertion.

You only have your own personal desire for why she should have been locked up.

That's a loosing argument.

Your implied defense that xenocide was a valid, lawful, military mission which rates full treatment of participants for not joining in enthusiastically enough is truly reprehensible. That is the attitude what sent many prisoners to Nuremberg following WWII and had most of them hung.
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post #86 of 99
1/24/10 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

Your implied defense that xenocide was a valid, lawful, military mission which rates full treatment of participants for not joining in enthusiastically enough is truly reprehensible. That is the attitude what sent many prisoners to Nuremberg following WWII and had most of them hung.

I most certainly said no such thing, and frankly, I am offended that you have intimated that I have such views. Please point out to me where I said that.

I said given that the company had chosen the path of Xenocide, the ringleader of it would make damn sure any deserters in his security force would have been thrown in the brig, and at the very least would not be allowed anywhere near other sympathizers. This fact certainly strengthens my argument, but I certainly have not condoned it at any point.


It was a poorly thought out and lazy scene. Within one minute of screen time Sully et. al are freed with no logical explanation for why Trudy would be able to gain access to them, and simply waltz into the apparently completely unsecured hanger and fly off. It has nothing to do with my 'personal desires.' I don't get into movies enough to have any sort of personal desires attached to them. I was simply struck by the laziness with which the escape scene was implemented.

I enjoyed the movie, but it was a terrible scene. I assume you don't contest the fact the screenwriters are capable of penning a bad scene?


Again, please tell me where I said this was valid and lawful?
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post #87 of 99
1/26/10 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

I most certainly said no such thing, and frankly, I am offended that you have intimated that I have such views. Please point out to me where I said that.



Again, please tell me where I said this was valid and lawful?

I said you implied it, and you did so quite strongly in this exchange:


Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Providing security doesn’t mean she is required to participate in xenocide. Why does choosing to not fire on the people that they sought to attack mean that she can’t quit her job. THEY ARE NOT MILITARY. THEY ARE PRIVATE. Ex-military get employed by companies all the time in the here-and-now and, guess what, they can quit there job or choose not to due a duty that doesn’t suit them without being imprisoned.

Enough of this. You’re floundering around trying to make it into something it’s not when it was explained several time through the course of the film they were corporate security, not military.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

But that is what her job became, and Parker acquiesced to that becoming securities job. Quartich is in charge of security, ergo he was in charge of Trudy. That character would have thrown her into the brig with the others without even giving it a second thought. The only person who could even think about overruling him is Parker, and Parker sure as hell wasn't overruling anything Quartich wanted to do at that point.

Corporate security, run by ex-military when THE ONLY THING PRESENT IS THE CORPORATION, will naturally operate like the military would, and desertion would be strictly punished.

I don't know why you are so stuck on that distinction, because in the context of the film, the distinction is meaningless.

You really don't know what you are really writing do you. That's sad.
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Hiro's Hall of Shame ignore list: Tulkas -- because we know he wasn't born dumb.
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post #88 of 99
1/26/10 at 11:22am
On a different note, as of yesterday Avatar is now the highest grossing movie of all time, though it isn't actually evident from yesterday's totals since non-US sales haven't yet been accounted for the Monday totals.
http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/ Sure, the ticket prices are higher than for the 1997 2D Titanic, but we're talking 5.5 weeks of sales, compared to 10.5 months and it besting out everything else. I hope he makes the sequels more epic in their stories now that the groundwork has been laid.
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post #89 of 99
1/26/10 at 12:03pm
Or maybe he could put some plot and good dialog into the next one.
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #90 of 99
1/26/10 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro View Post

I said you implied it, and you did so quite strongly in this exchange:







You really don't know what you are really writing do you. That's sad.

You have poor reading comprehension. You just proved that I did not personally condone or implied that I condoned xenocide; I was clearly writing about what I thought would have logically happened in the world the film had created to that point, not what I thought was personally right or wrong. I mean, for crying out loud, you even bolded the phrase "in the context of the film" for me! If you can't read, I can't help you.
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post #91 of 99
1/26/10 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

You have poor reading comprehension. You just proved that I did not personally condone or implied that I condoned xenocide; I was clearly writing about what I thought would have logically happened in the world the film had created to that point, not what I thought was personally right or wrong. I mean, for crying out loud, you even bolded the phrase "in the context of the film" for me! If you can't read, I can't help you.

Stop hiding Ender.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #92 of 99
1/26/10 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Stop hiding Ender.

You too, Bean.
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post #93 of 99
1/26/10 at 2:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Stop hiding Ender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

You too, Bean.

I get the xenocidic reference (note my location) but these insults are anything but unflattering.
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post #94 of 99
1/26/10 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I get the xenocidic reference (note my location) but these insults are anything but unflattering.


Huh? I honestly don't know what Floorjack was driving at (and subsequently don't know what you are driving at); I just recognized the reference. Who was he insulting? Me? Hiro? I really don't know.
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post #95 of 99
1/26/10 at 6:46pm
We noticed. And it's not the first time.
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post #96 of 99
1/28/10 at 11:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

I said given that the company had chosen the path of Xenocide, the ringleader of it would make damn sure any deserters in his security force would have been thrown in the brig, and at the very least would not be allowed anywhere near other sympathizers. This fact certainly strengthens my argument, but I certainly have not condoned it at any point.

Since when? Nobody choose a path of genocide. Quaritch gave a rah rah speech about preemptive strike cowing the natives before they could mass and attack the mining site, not wiping everyone out.

Geez, what movie were you watching? Attacking was stupid, attacking the way they did was even stupider. Quaritch was no military genius but hell, military disasters wouldn't be the same without guys like him.

The action at the tree was a punitive action to get the natives to move from a dig site. It wasn't war. Trudy could have been brigged or she could have just been grounded or reprimanded. Gunships against spear chuckers and a tree is not exactly a high-risk mission profile.

Heck, you don't even know the full chain of command anyway. For all you know she was detailed to the science team as nursemaid and driver from a completely different unit/corporate division and didn't even report to Quaritch. I'm pretty sure you don't have a TO&E to show any different. Her response could be as straightforward as "My CO said f*ck off and stay the f*ck away from his birds next time you want to light up some natives. Sir."
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post #97 of 99
1/29/10 at 6:49am
I stand by my contentions but you are correct that I should not have used the term Xenocide. It was thrown at me and I threw it back.
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post #98 of 99
2/6/10 at 11:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Or maybe he could put some plot and good dialog into the next one.


The plot and the dialogue is better than 99% of the movies out there. the story is a bit derivative (dances with wolves/pocahontas) but it also has a lot of original ideas and sequences.


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post #99 of 99
2/7/10 at 8:58pm
^ That's a high bar you set there.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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