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Microsoft loses patent appeal, must halt sale of Office by Jan. 11

post #1 of 82
Thread Starter 
Microsoft on Tuesday lost an appeal to be able to continue selling its popular Word software, which has been found in violation of a patent related to XML.

Microsoft was originally ordered to stop selling Word in August, after i4i Inc., of Toronto, Ontario won a suit over the program's ability to open .XML, .DOCX and .DOCM files, based on custom XML included in the file types. The court agreed to allow Microsoft to keep selling Word as the appeal went through the court. But Tuesday, that was denied by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit.

Microsoft now has until Jan. 11, 2010 to stop selling all versions of Word and Office that infringe on the patents owned by i4i. In a statement, Microsoft said it is "moving quickly to comply with the injunction."

"With respect to Microsoft Word 2007 and Microsoft Office 2007, we have been preparing for this possibility since the District Court issued its injunction in August 2009 and have put the wheels in motion to remove this little-used feature from these products," the company said.

"Therefore, we expect to have copies of Microsoft Word 2007 and Office 2007, with this feature removed, available for U.S. sale and distribution by the injunction date. In addition, the beta versions of Microsoft Word 2010 and Microsoft Office 2010, which are available now for downloading, do not contain the technology covered by the injunction."

The injunction applies to copies of Microsoft Word 2007 and Microsoft Office 2007 sold in the U.S. on or after the Jan. 11 date. Copies sold before the date are not affected.

"While we are moving quickly to address the injunction issue, we are also considering our legal options, which could include a request for a rehearing by the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals en banc or a request for a writ of certiorari from the U.S. Supreme Court," Microsoft said.

In September, Microsoft shipped Office 2008 for Mac Business Edition. The new SKU includes Entourage Web Services Edition and Microsoft Document Connection for Mac.

Microsoft also plans to release Office 2010 for Mac next year, along with a new version of Outlook built from the ground up for the platform. Office 2010 for Mac is expected to debut in time for the holidays next year.
post #2 of 82
Merry Christmas Microsoft. I am not sure that this will hold or should. How can one patent XML extensions?

Wouldn't this be considered "a bad thing" for those that want to use open file formats?
post #3 of 82
Microsoft will cut a royalty deal with i4i, and continue to sell Office. Bet on it.

GTSC
post #4 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf the Semi-Coherent View Post

Microsoft will cut a royalty deal with i4i, and continue to sell Office. Bet on it.

GTSC

They don't need to. They are just taking out the feature.
post #5 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damn_Its_Hot View Post

Merry Christmas Microsoft. I am not sure that this will hold or should. How can one patent XML extensions?

Wouldn't this be considered "a bad thing" for those that want to use open file formats?

It's not about file formats.

You can read detailed information on Groklaw.

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...91222145134400
post #6 of 82
Non-news, I think. The market seems to have shrugged it off, with MSFT essentially flat (on a market-adjusted basis).
post #7 of 82
The day Microsoft goes out of business, humankind will make a gigantic leap ahead! As with other monopolies.
post #8 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by zunx View Post

The day Microsoft goes out of business, humankind will make a gigantic leap ahead! As with other monopolies.

Leaving Apple to have a monopoly? Not a good idea. Apple is already showing too many 'Big Brother' characteristics as it is... At least MS is cheap. Get rid of the cheap monopoly, and you're left with Apple being an expensive monopoly.
post #9 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Leaving Apple to have a monopoly? Not a good idea. Apple is already showing too many 'Big Brother' characteristics as it is... At least MS is cheap. Get rid of the cheap monopoly, and you're left with Apple being an expensive monopoly.

Microsoft cheap? When was the last time you paid for Microsoft software such as Windows, Office, Visual Studio?
post #10 of 82
happy hanukkah steve ballmer
post #11 of 82
Huh. Wonder where they got that custom XML code?
/sarcasm.
post #12 of 82
I wouldn't be celebrating. This could bring business and institution Mac sales to halt. I don't know if a school or business would use open office and iWork's compatibility is far from seamless.
post #13 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by hzc View Post

Microsoft cheap? When was the last time you paid for Microsoft software such as Windows, Office, Visual Studio?

windows and office are fairly priced for what they are. the full version of OSX is almost the same as the full version of windows 7 home prem.

visual studio... its a pretty robust piece of software and its going to be bulk licensed by businesses at a cheaper rate. the average consumer wont buy this
post #14 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post

It's not about file formats.

You can read detailed information on Groklaw.

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...91222145134400

The feature seems to be this one:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb608618.aspx

which allows users to store arbitrary data inside an Office document.:

"This is useful if you want to work with XML data in a document on a computer that does not have Microsoft Office applications installed, such as a server."

One thing that I really wanted to see from Microsoft eventually is a way to let Word users build online forms by laying them out inside Word and just dropping the file on the server - online form generators aren't that intuitive. The custom XML could have been used and read on a server without a .docx reader and allowed content-managed forms.

Even if it seems good that Microsoft are made to pay out a couple of hundred million, it's no gain for people who want to push forward the flexibility of open formats. When that flexibility is removed from open formats, companies just revert back to proprietary ways to get the job done. This won't mean scrapping .docx etc but it could mean using a proprietary method to embed custom data, which can make it hard to access that data.
post #15 of 82
I don't get people who continue to talk about an "Apple Monopoly". I really wish you would learn what the word actually means. "Ooooh, I wish someone would stop Honda from their Accord monopoly. While you're at it, Sharp's monopoly on Aquos flat screens is pretty ridiculous, as is Canon's monopoly on the EOS line of digital cameras.

You cannot have a monopoly on your own brand. Now if Apple has say 80-90% of the computing market, THEN you can say they have a monopoly ON COMPUTERS, NOT on Macs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Leaving Apple to have a monopoly? Not a good idea. Apple is already showing too many 'Big Brother' characteristics as it is... At least MS is cheap. Get rid of the cheap monopoly, and you're left with Apple being an expensive monopoly.
post #16 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubert View Post

Huh. Wonder where they got that custom XML code?
/sarcasm.

Not clear to me what Custom XML actually is.

I found this http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=3712

Post author Stephane Rodriguez links to a couple of Microsoft-provided definitions of Custom XML.

The first, from Office Program Manager Brian Jones, dates back to 2005:

“Custom XML is the support for custom defined schemas. It’s that support that allows you truly integrate your documents with business processes and business data. You can define your data using XML Schema syntax, and then you can use that data in your Office documents. By opening up our formats with our reference schemas, and supporting your custom defined schemas, you get true interoperability of your documents.”

I did some more searching. I found a 2008 retort to Rodriguez’s post that also attempts to define Custom XML. From .Net evangelist Wouter van Vugt:

Custom XML markup “is about embedding custom XML defined outside of Open XML to support solution which aim to structure a document using business semantics, not only using formatting. A great advance since you want to get to the data, and not by saying that the customer name is the 3rd paragraph. The issue is that you cannot just allow any arbitrary XML to be stored in the WordprocessingML package. This would become application specific, and it would break validation since all XML is valid. Not a great idea.”

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post #17 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin View Post

The feature seems to be this one:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb608618.aspx

which allows users to store arbitrary data inside an Office document.:


Thanks for the link. This part I find interesting since the injunction seems to refer to opening the Custom XML in Word:

You can create or modify custom XML parts when the document is open in the Office application, or when the document is closed—even if Microsoft Office is not installed.

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post #18 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucklehead View Post

I don't get people who continue to talk about an "Apple Monopoly". I really wish you would learn what the word actually means. "Ooooh, I wish someone would stop Honda from their Accord monopoly. While you're at it, Sharp's monopoly on Aquos flat screens is pretty ridiculous, as is Canon's monopoly on the EOS line of digital cameras.

You cannot have a monopoly on your own brand. Now if Apple has say 80-90% of the computing market, THEN you can say they have a monopoly ON COMPUTERS, NOT on Macs.

you didnt read what he was referencing.

he was referencing the fact if microsoft closed its doors there was an implication that the next successor would be apple to gain the majority market share.
post #19 of 82
Well it doesn't stop Word from being sold. MS will simply make the changes by Jan. 11th and continue with sales.

Hardly a blow to MS, aside from PR, but even that's marginal at best.
post #20 of 82
This is nothing more than a minor annoyance for Microsoft. No big deal.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #21 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

At least MS is cheap. Get rid of the cheap monopoly, and you're left with Apple being an expensive monopoly.

You've never actually paid for any MS software, have you?

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Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others.
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iPhone 5 Black 32GB

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post #22 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone View Post

Not clear to me what Custom XML actually is.

I found this http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=3712

Post author Stephane Rodriguez links to a couple of Microsoft-provided definitions of Custom XML.

The first, from Office Program Manager Brian Jones, dates back to 2005:

Custom XML is the support for custom defined schemas. Its that support that allows you truly integrate your documents with business processes and business data. You can define your data using XML Schema syntax, and then you can use that data in your Office documents. By opening up our formats with our reference schemas, and supporting your custom defined schemas, you get true interoperability of your documents.

I did some more searching. I found a 2008 retort to Rodriguezs post that also attempts to define Custom XML. From .Net evangelist Wouter van Vugt:

Custom XML markup is about embedding custom XML defined outside of Open XML to support solution which aim to structure a document using business semantics, not only using formatting. A great advance since you want to get to the data, and not by saying that the customer name is the 3rd paragraph. The issue is that you cannot just allow any arbitrary XML to be stored in the WordprocessingML package. This would become application specific, and it would break validation since all XML is valid. Not a great idea.


Yea this is how the software engineers that I work with talk. I have no fucking clue what they are saying!
post #23 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post

You've never actually paid for any MS software, have you?

The School and Home edition of Office is often sold here significantly cheaper than the Family pack of iWork
post #24 of 82
Doh! Sorry about that.

Still, if MS were to go out of business, there is no guarantee Apple would be the "successor" to rule the computing world. Not to say it wouldn't change but Apple's current business model sets them up in a niche market. To broaden the brand, they'd likely have to open up OSX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep View Post

you didnt read what he was referencing.

he was referencing the fact if microsoft closed its doors there was an implication that the next successor would be apple to gain the majority market share.
post #25 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucklehead View Post

Doh! Sorry about that.

Still, if MS were to go out of business, there is no guarantee Apple would be the "successor" to rule the computing world.

In my opinion, Linux is becoming more relevant every day and could soon give Microsoft some competition in the OS area, especially on the lower end of the market.

Apple isn't really threatened by Linux because the OS is only part of what makes Macs so appealing. Besides, OS X is in no danger of being upstaged by Linux in terms of out-of-the-box features, support, and refinement.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #26 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep View Post

windows and office are fairly priced for what they are. the full version of OSX

As opposed to what other version of OS X
post #27 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

As opposed to what other version of OS X

Why, the empty version, of course!

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #28 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

..and you're left with Apple being an expensive monopoly.



Not only that, but you have to buy their limited product line hardware too.


Apple's Mac market share would double in a few short years if they paid just a little more attention to the needs of it's consumers and business clients.

They are getting better, but it's been a slow grind.
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post #29 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

Not only that, but you have to buy their limited product line hardware too.


Apple's Mac market share would double in a few short years if they paid just a little more attention to the needs of it's consumers and business clients.

They are getting better, but it's been a slow grind.

The question is whether Apple actually wants more market share, and if they do, whether the pace at which they've grown hasn't been what they've wanted all along.

As it is, they dominate the high-end computer market. Their profit margins are fantastic and they don't need a huge market share or huge volume to be profitable.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #30 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

In my opinion, Linux is becoming more relevant every day and could soon give Microsoft some competition in the OS area, especially on the lower end of the market.

Apple isn't really threatened by Linux because the OS is only part of what makes Macs so appealing. Besides, OS X is in no danger of being upstaged by Linux in terms of out-of-the-box features, support, and refinement.


Apple is threatened by Linux, it has better security, more customization and less bloat than OS X and it's free for most distros. In fact Pixar used Linux to run their renderfarm under Steve Jobs, he knows.

Dell sells laptops with Ubuntu installed, the best desktop version of Linux. 10% of netbooks run Linux according to a article I read. I use it in VM Fusion, getting up to speed on it and will be installing it or buying it preinstalled on my new netbooks. It's very easy to use, nearly the same as OS X and the GUI is customizable. But it's not really for 'GUI only' newbies, one will need to hit the command line once in awhile and have a understanding how computers work.

Many Mac users would be surprised how similar Linux is to OS X under the hood. Permissions, Bash, command line are nearly the same.

The reason Apple is threatened by Linux, especially Ubuntu, is that it offers the security and ease of use of OS X, without the high price of the premium hardware attached.

Microsoft and Apple have been corning the market for years now. One plays low quality and the other high quality. Apple stays out of the business market and Microsoft keeps their lemmings buying anti-virus and produces OfficeMac.

Apple even sells OfficeMac, preinstalled if someone wants it. I find NeoOffice or Open Office (same thing, NeoOffice converted Open Office to a Mac version first, before Sun finally did) a excellent alternative to anything from security prone Microsoft.

Free yourself from Microsoft, free the world.


http://www.ubuntu.com/

http://ubuntuforums.org/

http://www.ubuntupocketguide.com/index_main.html

http://www.openoffice.org/
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post #31 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

Apple is threatened by Linux, it has better security, more customization and less bloat than OS X and it's free for most distros. In fact Pixar used Linux to run their renderfarm under Steve Jobs, he knows.

Dell sells laptops with Ubuntu installed, the best desktop version of Linux. 10% of netbooks run Linux according to a article I read. I use it in VM Fusion, getting up to speed on it and will be installing it or buying it preinstalled on my new netbooks. It's very easy to use, nearly the same as OS X and the GUI is customizable. But it's not really for 'GUI only' newbies, one will need to hit the command line once in awhile and have a understanding how computers work.

Many Mac users would be surprised how similar Linux is to OS X under the hood. Permissions, Bash, command line are nearly the same.

The reason Apple is threatened by Linux, especially Ubuntu, is that it offers the security and ease of use of OS X, without the high price of the premium hardware attached.

Microsoft and Apple have been corning the market for years now. One plays low quality and the other high quality. Apple stays out of the business market and Microsoft keeps their lemmings buying anti-virus and produces OfficeMac.

Apple even sells OfficeMac, preinstalled if someone wants it. I find NeoOffice or Open Office (same thing, NeoOffice converted Open Office to a Mac version first, before Sun finally did)


http://www.ubuntu.com/

http://ubuntuforums.org/

http://www.ubuntupocketguide.com/index_main.html

http://www.openoffice.org/

you are very right...ubuntu is awesome

if there were adobe software available on linux, mac os x would be threatened by it big time
post #32 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyourownthing View Post

you are very right...ubuntu is awesome

if there were adobe software available on linux, mac os x would be threatened by it big time

There is GIMP, it's certainly no Photoshop. Also far as I know there isn't any InDesign type software for Ubuntu neither.

But for most users, that's enough. Adobe type software is for professionals or soon to be professionals, they can buy or invest in the right hardware to meet the software, namely a Mac or two.

But for general users who just want a netbook, Ubuntu is a excellent alternative to Windows and it's constant need for anti-malware and headaches.


Heck I even run Chrome OS, that's going to be something. A browser type OS with limited features for netbooks, perfect for newbies who just want to email and surf.

Apple has been pissing off it's professional market for years now, so has Adobe for that matter. Netbooks are going to rule sales this holiday season, because fewer and fewer people think they need a full fledged computer any more.

If Apple comes out with a iPhone with a 10" or 12" screen and iChat, prices it about $500, it would kick netbooks to the curb.

Of course AT&T is slowing Apple down big time.
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post #33 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by frugality View Post

Leaving Apple to have a monopoly? Not a good idea. Apple is already showing too many 'Big Brother' characteristics as it is... At least MS is cheap. Get rid of the cheap monopoly, and you're left with Apple being an expensive monopoly.

Competition is almost always a good thing, so I agree that Microsoft must survive.

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post #34 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Yea this is how the software engineers that I work with talk. I have no fucking clue what they are saying!

post #35 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

There is GIMP, it's certainly no Photoshop. Also far as I know there isn't any InDesign type software for Ubuntu neither.

But for most users, that's enough. Adobe type software is for professionals or soon to be professionals, they can buy or invest in the right hardware to meet the software, namely a Mac or two.

But for general users who just want a netbook, Ubuntu is a excellent alternative to Windows and it's constant need for anti-malware and headaches.


Heck I even run Chrome OS, that's going to be something. A browser type OS with limited features for netbooks, perfect for newbies who just want to email and surf.

Apple has been pissing off it's professional market for years now, so has Adobe for that matter. Netbooks are going to rule sales this holiday season, because fewer and fewer people think they need a full fledged computer any more.

If Apple comes out with a iPhone with a 10" or 12" screen and iChat, prices it about $500, it would kick netbooks to the curb.

Of course AT&T is slowing Apple down big time.

Chrome OS is the big wildcard. Linux will continue as a viable low-cost solution but Chrome could potentially make the biggest inroads over the next decade, IMO.

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post #36 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep View Post

you didnt read what he was referencing.

he was referencing the fact if microsoft closed its doors there was an implication that the next successor would be apple to gain the majority market share.

That's true but anyone defending that possibility is nuts. If one could no longer buy MS products, which do you think would happen first:

1 - Dell, HP, IBM et al co-opt a linux distribution or two and customize them for general use. Intel and Google both have such a distro that would do the job or

2 - Apple drops its prices by 50% and expands manufacturing by 500%

Anyone who thinks more than 2 seconds gets shown the door in the floor because they're idiots.
post #37 of 82
A lot of what you're saying here is pure BS, or at best wishful thinking/hyperbole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

Apple is threatened by Linux, it has better security, more customization and less bloat than OS X and it's free for most distros. In fact Pixar used Linux to run their renderfarm under Steve Jobs, he knows.

Apple is not threatened in the least by Linux which has a miniscule share of the market and addresses a completely different segment of the market than Apple does. The fact that Linux is used for a rendering farm has absolutely no bearing at all on the average user or the kinds of everyday computing tasks they need to do. This is like saying that a server OS is good, therefore your Mum should use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

... Many Mac users would be surprised how similar Linux is to OS X under the hood. Permissions, Bash, command line are nearly the same.

It's similar "under the hood" because Linux is a copy of Unix, which Mac OS-X actually is. The last thing the average Mac user wants however, is to dig "under the hood" of the OS. Most never discover the similarity and are quite happy about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

... The reason Apple is threatened by Linux, especially Ubuntu, is that it offers the security and ease of use of OS X, ...

More absolute BS. Linux is no where near as easy to use as Mac OS-X and numerous studies prove this year after year. Linux is also no more secure than OS-X in design, and less secure in reality as the user can do some very stupid things with all the customisation Linux offers.

I get that you are all hyped up on LInux, but most of your assertions are just plain wrong.
post #38 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

But it's not really for 'GUI only' newbies, one will need to hit the command line once in awhile and have a understanding how computers work.

The way you say that implies that you don't understand that those "GUI newbies" comprise easily 98% of the computing world.
post #39 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

If Apple comes out with a iPhone with a 10" or 12" screen and iChat, prices it about $500, it would kick netbooks to the curb.

It would also lower Apple's total profits by taking sales away from other hardware that it sells. Which is why it won't happen at that price.
post #40 of 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

Apple is threatened by Linux, it has better security, more customization and less bloat than OS X and it's free for most distros. In fact Pixar used Linux to run their renderfarm under Steve Jobs, he knows.

Dell sells laptops with Ubuntu installed, the best desktop version of Linux. 10% of netbooks run Linux according to a article I read. I use it in VM Fusion, getting up to speed on it and will be installing it or buying it preinstalled on my new netbooks. It's very easy to use, nearly the same as OS X and the GUI is customizable. But it's not really for 'GUI only' newbies, one will need to hit the command line once in awhile and have a understanding how computers work.

Many Mac users would be surprised how similar Linux is to OS X under the hood. Permissions, Bash, command line are nearly the same.

The reason Apple is threatened by Linux, especially Ubuntu, is that it offers the security and ease of use of OS X, without the high price of the premium hardware attached.

Microsoft and Apple have been corning the market for years now. One plays low quality and the other high quality. Apple stays out of the business market and Microsoft keeps their lemmings buying anti-virus and produces OfficeMac.

Apple even sells OfficeMac, preinstalled if someone wants it. I find NeoOffice or Open Office (same thing, NeoOffice converted Open Office to a Mac version first, before Sun finally did) a excellent alternative to anything from security prone Microsoft.

Free yourself from Microsoft, free the world.


http://www.ubuntu.com/

http://ubuntuforums.org/

http://www.ubuntupocketguide.com/index_main.html

http://www.openoffice.org/

There is no way, shape, or form in which Ubuntu can approach OS X in the consumer market. Linux-on-the desktop is an utter joke compared to what Apple brings to the table with OS X. Ubuntu being free ceratinly isn't preventing consumers from handing Apple record quarters in Mac sales. Why even mention cost when consumers are happily paying for operating systems, even Windows!

"Microsoft and Apple have been corning the market for years now. One plays low quality and the other high quality. Apple stays out of the business market and Microsoft keeps their lemmings buying anti-virus and produces OfficeMac."

So if Apple has the "high-quality" market cornered, then how in God's name is Linux a threat?? With the existence of OS X in the Premium end (where Linux will never be), and with a more stable and usable Windows 7 in the "low-end", where does that leave Linux? What is the point in using Linux for the average consumer? Savings?

"It's very easy to use, nearly the same as OS X and the GUI is customizable. But it's not really for 'GUI only' newbies, one will need to hit the command line once in awhile and have a understanding how computers work"

"very easy to use, nearly the same as OS X (not quite)"

Yet, you also claim "it's not really for "GUI only" newbies, and one will need to hit the command line once in a while. Guess what, the bulk of Apple's market - in fact the average user at large, is a GUI-only newbie. No, I don't want to "hit the command-line" once in a while, though it might be interesting to do so. I want to drop my vacation photos into iPhoto, hit "enhance", and watch the magic happen. I want to use iWork and then share my documents on iWork.com. I want everything auto-configured, auto-adjusted, etc.

Apple users aint looking for "free", my friend. They're looking for a quality experience that pampers the user. And they'll line up to pay every time.

Consumer Linux = a fun desktop experiment that showcases some interesting tech that may or may or may not make it into prime time when a REAL consumer-oriented OS may or may not make use of them.
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