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Health Care Reform Passes the Senate, What Does it really mean?

post #1 of 147
Thread Starter 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091224/..._care_overhaul

Quote:
In an epic struggle settled at dawn, the Democratic-controlled Senate passed health care legislation Thursday, a triumph for President Barack Obama that clears the way for compromise talks with the House on a bill to reduce the ranks of the uninsured and rein in the insurance industry.

The vote was 60-39, strictly along party lines, one day after Democrats succeeded in crushing a filibuster by Republicans eager — yet unable — to inflict a year-end political defeat on the White House.

At the White House, Obama called the vote historic, and said because of it, "we are incredibly close to making health insurance reform a reality in this country. Our challenge now is to finish the job."

From what I can see, they have to close the gaps between the House and Senate Bills. Once this is completed they should have a final bill. Assuming this happens, what is now in the final bill? There have been so many changes that some are saying that the final bill is not even anything like the original bill that started the process. This thread is here to follow the process going through the House and to speak to what is actually in the bill that is being voted on. If the bill does finally pass the house as well, what will it mean as far as taxes, coverage and the size of government. Lets try to avoid simply saying:

Higher/Lower
Not as good/Better
Bigger/Smaller

Give answers like how much higher or lower based on what is in the bill.
What will change?
What agencies will be created or removed?

I for one want to know what is really going to happen, partisan politics aside. Factual information and discussion would be preferred.

The bill is H.R. 3590

This site seems to give the information on the bill as it stands.
http://www.opencongress.org/senate_health_care_bill
Quote:
H.R.3590 - Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to modify the first-time homebuyers credit in the case of members of the Armed Forces and certain other Federal employees, and for other purposes. ( )
Version............................Word Count.........Changes From Previous Version........Percent Change
Introduced in House................989.........................n/a...........................................n/a
Engrossed in House.................899......................... .3.............................................20%
Placed on Calendar Senate......970..........................8........ ......................................5%
Amendment in Senate............353,330...................753... ........................................99%

As you can see, the bill has been 99% changed from the previous bill. Went from 989 to 353,330 words and over 753 changes in the Senate. So it is important to understand what those changes are and what they mean for the country.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #2 of 147
I think the reconciled bill will have to be a lot more like the one which passed the Senate than the one that passed the House, since clearly a bill with a public option will not get 60 votes in the Senate. Pelosi has already said that the public option is as good as dead. The Senate bill is also less expensive. So I think the House will have to move in that direction on cost.

Word count aside, the basic principles from the bills originally introduced are intact, with the obvious exception of the public option (in its various incarnations), and the addition a lot of essentially irrelevant language on abortion funding.

The CBO says both bills lower the federal deficit, so I don't see where the debate is there.
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post #3 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

I think the reconciled bill will have to be a lot more like the one which passed the Senate than the one that passed the House, since clearly a bill with a public option will not get 60 votes in the Senate. Pelosi has already said that the public option is as good as dead. The Senate bill is also less expensive. So I think the House will have to move in that direction on cost.

I agree, which is why I feel that this bill will likely be the one that get the final vote. Whether it passes or not aside... The question is what is actually in it?

Quote:
Word count aside, the basic principles from the bills originally introduced are intact, with the obvious exception of the public option (in its various incarnations), and the addition a lot of essentially irrelevant language on abortion funding.

Word count is not my question, it is the 99% different verbiage that I found interesting. It is hard to change 99% of the words and not change the basic bill. So what has actually changed?

Quote:
The CBO says both bills lower the federal deficit, so I don't see where the debate is there.

The CBO claims it lowers the deficit, but I am not concerned about what it does to the deficit as much as how they are going to do that. What is it going to cost you and I to accomplish this? Not just Millmoss either, anyone feel free to answer. This seems to be the bill to read as it will likely be the one that has the possibility of being voted in.
NoahJ
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post #4 of 147
The insurance mandate is a de facto tax increase on individuals that Obama said he wouldn't do.

The regulation of policies will increase costs which will be passed on to individuals.

The mandates on employers will cause people to lose their jobs and slow growth.

The gutting of tort reform will enrich trial lawyers to the determent of everyone else.

Medicare Medicaid will now decline care with no legal pathway for individuals to redress the denial of care.

The increased costs on states will bankrupt them and increase local taxes.

It's a lose lose lose lose bill with a win for lawyers.

Merry Christmas.
post #5 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I agree, which is why I feel that this bill will likely be the one that get the final vote. Whether it passes or not aside... The question is what is actually in it?

It's plenty easy to find a summary of both the Senate and the House bills to read, and how they differ. Probably the biggest debate in conference will be over when the insurance exchanges take effect (2013 in the House and 2014 in the Senate), and whether the exchanges are national (House) or state (Senate). I wouldn't be totally sure which will prevail in the end.

Obviously, these bills are vastly different than the bills originally introduced. The politics have been intense.

The deficit is lowered primarily by reducing the growth in Medicare costs (something the Republicans are steadfastly against, ironically).
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post #6 of 147
The creation of a whole new class of criminal is great news for the prison-industrial complex. (Those who cannot afford compulsory health insurance face fines of up to $250,000 or up to 5 years in prison, or both). Buy stock in CCA, Wackenhut etc.
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post #7 of 147
Since for reasons I will never understand, some people feel compelled to lie about this, or to repeat lies they have been told, here is a side-by side summary and comparison of the House and Senate bills from a neutral source:

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/uplo...ebill_final.pd
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post #8 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Since for reasons I will never understand, some people feel compelled to lie about this, or to repeat lies they have been told, here is a side-by side summary and comparison of the House and Senate bills from a neutral source:

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/uplo...ebill_final.pd

Your link is broken. I think it is missing a final letter.
NoahJ
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NoahJ
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post #9 of 147
I sure hope it passes the House. Regardless of the fact I got healthcare provided by my current employer. I like to know that there is a safety net in case I lose my job or quit.

Healthcare is a basic right, not socialism. In the same way a military protecting our nation is a right, and we don't all hire our own private army.

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post #10 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post

I sure hope it passes the House. Regardless of the fact I got healthcare provided by my current employer. I like to know that there is a safety net in case I lose my job or quit.

Healthcare is a basic right, not socialism. In the same way a military protecting our nation is a right, and we don't all hire our own private army.

Where's it say that in the constitution?
post #11 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Where's it say that in the constitution?

"by the people and for the people"
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post #12 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Where's it say that in the constitution?

However, socialism's so handy when it comes down to rescuing capitalism perhaps? If it wasn't for socialist-style big government welfare and huge tax-payer provided hand-outs, where would many of the nation's major financial insitutions be today? Out of Business... Dead and Gone.
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post #13 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

However, socialism's so handy when it comes down to rescuing capitalism perhaps? If it wasn't for socialist-style big government welfare and huge tax-payer provided hand-outs, where would many of the nation's major financial insitutions be today? Out of Business... Dead and Gone.

Saving bad corporations and money managers is definitely socialist-style policy.

Teaching corporate fat cats and unions that they can plunder with impunity, take foolish risks, and be bailed out at the end is definitely socialist-style policy.

Keeping paying attention. Your economy has not yet experienced the full effect of what has been done to it.
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post #14 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

"by the people and for the people"

If you cared to include the full line you would recall that this line is describing the government and how it will be elected and managed, not healthcare or basic human rights.

"A government, of the people, for the people and by the people." (If the quote is a bit wrong I am posting it by memory, the blackberry is not a multi-tasking phone for these types of situations. Please feel free to post the absolutely correct full quote.)
NoahJ
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post #15 of 147
Even when the combined bill passes the House, it's not going to amount to a hill of beans to most people thanks to the bullshit compromises and pandering to conservatives. I just hope with all my heart that a full public option can pass at a later date, as it's the only thing that Americans really need and deserve.
post #16 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

If you cared to include the full line you would recall that this line is describing the government and how it will be elected and managed, not healthcare or basic human rights.

"A government, of the people, for the people and by the people." (If the quote is a bit wrong I am posting it by memory, the blackberry is not a multi-tasking phone for these types of situations. Please feel free to post the absolutely correct full quote.)

That line is from the fucking Gettysburg address.
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post #17 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Your link is broken. I think it is missing a final letter.

Quite right, sorry for the mistake. No excuse for reading it now, and discussing the actual subject. Not that anyone will actually do either one.
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post #18 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

That line is from the fucking Gettysburg address.

Give the guy a break, he's on a Blackberry for God's sake!
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post #19 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

However, socialism's so handy when it comes down to rescuing capitalism perhaps? If it wasn't for socialist-style big government welfare and huge tax-payer provided hand-outs, where would many of the nation's major financial insitutions be today? Out of Business... Dead and Gone.

I wasn't for that either.
post #20 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter View Post

That line is from the fucking Gettysburg address.

My bad. I simply picked a line from memory that matched what he posted. What part was he quoting? I have not had computer access for about a week and not been able to do any serious browsing.
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post #21 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

Where's it say that in the constitution?

The constitution is not holy scripture, hence it has been amended 17 times.

Or else we'll still have slavery, and women wont be allowed to vote, etc...

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post #22 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Give the guy a break, he's on a Blackberry for God's sake!

Tell you what. Enlighten us all as to where that is in the constitution. I just spent a while Googling on a blackberry. You explain where to find it. I only found the Gettysburg Address also

Then when you do find it, tell us all how it backs up your position. I will look on my Blackberry and wait.
NoahJ
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post #23 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post

The constitution is not holy scripture, hence it has been amended 17 times.

Or else we'll still have slavery, and women wont be allowed to vote, etc...

No, but it is the basis of what our government is and is not allowed to do. If you don't like what it does not allow. Amend it to change it so it is allowed. Don't simply circumvent it like it does not matter.
NoahJ
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post #24 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Quite right, sorry for the mistake. No excuse for reading it now, and discussing the actual subject. Not that anyone will actually do either one.

After discovering your broken link I tried to view the page but the Blackberry refuses to load it. It will have to wait. I posted that it was broken so that you could fix it. Sorry that I did not go on to state that I tried to view it and could not.
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post #25 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

No, but it is the basis of what our government is and is not allowed to do. If you don't like what it does not allow. Amend it to change it so it is allowed. Don't simply circumvent it like it does not matter.

So you are OK with it if it passes as an amendment?

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post #26 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

.. I just hope with all my heart that a full public option can pass at a later date, as it's the only thing that Americans really need and deserve.

The bill mandates that a family of 4 with an income of $88,000 would qualify for Medicaid. Thats 400% above the federally defined level of poverty.

Why do you need a public option with that in place? That is your public option and the path to a single government payer system in the US.

Liberals and socialists rejoice. Your leaders are accomplishing what you desire.
post #27 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post

Healthcare is a basic right, not socialism. In the same way a military protecting our nation is a right, and we don't all hire our own private army.

What about food and shelter? Should the government provide that for its citizens too?
post #28 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by aizmov View Post

the constitution is not holy scripture, hence it has been amended 17 times.

twenty-seven times.
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post #29 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

After discovering your broken link I tried to view the page but the Blackberry refuses to load it. It will have to wait. I posted that it was broken so that you could fix it. Sorry that I did not go on to state that I tried to view it and could not.

Okay, here is the link with the final letter added back in:

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/uplo...bill_final.pdf

It is PDF file, a side-by-side comparison of the bills passed by the Senate and House.

Not that it matters. Clearly nobody wants to actually discuss healthcare, just the ideological axes they have to grind.
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post #30 of 147
Deleted by Bergermeister.

 

Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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Your = the possessive of you, as in, "Your name is Tom, right?" or "What is your name?"

 

You're = a contraction of YOU + ARE as in, "You are right" --> "You're right."

 

 

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post #31 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Tell you what. Enlighten us all as to where that is in the constitution. I just spent a while Googling on a blackberry. You explain where to find it. I only found the Gettysburg Address also

Then when you do find it, tell us all how it backs up your position. I will look on my Blackberry and wait.

Noahj I was kidding. My mistake about the constitution...I thought that was obvious and hence the joke!

Why are the repubs so in love with Mediaid and Medicare at the moment if it's so unconstitutional? Isn't that in their eyes using the constitution as toilet paper and the metaphorical equivalence of burning the flag?

I think if the FF's could see what the Repubs are doing in the US they'd go after those murderous money grabbers with a revolution or at least with all the means at their disposal. Anti healthcare anti AGW...criminal charges of murder should be brought forward on both counts and before long I bet they will be on at least one.
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post #32 of 147
@ Hands Sandon

Dunno, I'm no fan of Medicaid/Medicare system and I'm Republican.
post #33 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Noahj I was kidding. My mistake about the constitution...I thought that was obvious and hence the joke!

Why are the repubs so in love with Mediaid and Medicare at the moment if it's so unconstitutional? Isn't that in their eyes using the constitution as toilet paper and the metaphorical equivalence of burning the flag?

I think if the FF's could see what the Repubs are doing in the US they'd go after those murderous money grabbers with a revolution or at least with all the means at their disposal. Anti healthcare anti AGW...criminal charges of murder should be brought forward on both counts and before long I bet they will be on at least one.

This is what I am talking about when I say you always have to take your arguments one step further. You go from reasoned debate to a land where people who don't agree with your position are murderers and criminals that should, and will soon, be brought up on charges. How do you have a conversation with that?
NoahJ
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post #34 of 147
Before criticizing others, you might want to consider what you have contributed to the actual discussion of healthcare.
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post #35 of 147
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

Before criticizing others, you might want to consider what you have contributed to the actual discussion of healthcare.

I have contributed my opinions, research and life experience to the discussions. I have tried not to over polarize the discussions and to listen to others input. If I disagreed with them I told them so and I told them why. I did not condemn any of them to prison or call them criminals. What would you have me change?
NoahJ
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post #36 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

people who don't agree with your position are murderers and criminals

Some are and some aren't. Most people with a moral compass would be outraged at 45,000 American's dying every year that needn't have if they had had insurance. Mostly though I hold those in positions of power responsible.
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post #37 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Some are and some aren't. Most people with a moral compass would be outraged at 45,000 American's dying every year that needn't have if they had had insurance. Mostly though I hold those in positions of power responsible.

You just proved his point, implying that those opposed to government-run healthcare don't have a "moral compass".

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #38 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

Some are and some aren't. Most people with a moral compass would be outraged at 45,000 American's dying every year that needn't have if they had had insurance. Mostly though I hold those in positions of power responsible.

Perhaps some folks are looking to be outraged? After all, that particular number comes from a single study by very partisan advocates of a one-payer system. Their study may be valid, but one should take account that they do have an axe to grind.

In contrast, a paper published in April by Richard Kronick of the Department of Family and Preventive Medicine at the University of California (San Diego) School of Medicine came to a different conclusion. Using data from the NCHS he found that "the risk of subsequent mortality is no different for uninsured respondents than for those covered by employer-sponsored group insurance."

Kronick is no conservative axe-grinder. A former policy crafter for the Clinton administration, he helped develop the Clinton health care proposals. From what I have read, he said it "was not the answer I wanted". None-the-less, a peer fellow at Brookings also believes it to be very robust (compared to previous IOM studies).

So, who to believe? Well, without closely examining the papers and data all a reasonable person can do is adjust for bias - and when two members of the left of center disagree (let alone the right) then I'd say that 45000 number needs a lot more vetting.
post #39 of 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

I have contributed my opinions, research and life experience to the discussions. I have tried not to over polarize the discussions and to listen to others input. If I disagreed with them I told them so and I told them why. I did not condemn any of them to prison or call them criminals. What would you have me change?

You started this thread with questions about the differences between the two bills, and what they might mean for healthcare. Good questions. So I posted a link to a neutral, nonpartisan analysis. Since then, nobody but nobody has shown even the remotest interest in discussing this. Instead we get more ideological axe-grinding and insult trading, which always seems to work brilliantly as a method of distracting the discussion away from the real topic.

Is it any wonder why this country is in a state of political paralysis? It isn't to me.
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post #40 of 147
If this bill is pie in the sky then answer a few questions: why did the Harry Reid & Nancy Pelosi BRIBE some with $300 million, several states will never pay for Medicare. Also, what's the hurry?, it will not take effect for 5 years, it can't be that important. Who is going to pay for it, your grandchildren and great grandchildren? No one is refused care when going to the Emergency Room, and I mean NO ONE, Legal or ILLEGAL. It's mandated by Law that everyone is given care. The bill is Crap just like those who wrote, proposed and voted for it. If it's so good then Please tell me "WHY THE CONGRESSMEN/WOMEN AND SENATORS ARE NOT IN THE PLAN".

I leave you with this thought "5% of the people have hemorrhoids & 95% are perfect assholes.

Healthcare is NOT a Right, it's paid for by someone. Drivers Licenses are not a Right and the list goes on.
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