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Nokia lodges complaint alleging Apple in broad patent violation

post #1 of 105
Thread Starter 
Nokia said Tuesday that it has filed a complaint with the United States International Trade Commission (ITC) alleging that Apple has been infringing on its patents in virtually all of its mobile phones, portable music players, and computers.
*
In total, Nokia accuses Apple of treading on seven distinct patents to create key features in its products in the area of user interface, as well as camera, antenna and power management technologies. These patented technologies are said to allow Nokia to facilitate better user experiences, lower manufacturing costs, create devices of smaller size and deliver longer battery life.*

"Nokia has been the leading developer of many key technologies in small electronic devices" said Paul Melin, General Manager, Patent Licensing at Nokia. "This action is about protecting the results of such pioneering development."

Tuesday's complain signals an escalation of tensions between two of the world's mobile phone powerhouses. In October, Nokia sued Apple in a Delaware U.S. district court on grounds that the iPhone maker was illegally leveraging technology from 10 of its GSM and wireless LAN related patents for which it has invested over more than 40 billion Euros.

"While our litigation in Delaware is about Apple's attempt to free-ride on the back of Nokia investment in wireless standards, the ITC case filed today is about Apple's practice of building its business on Nokia's proprietary innovation," Melin said.

The world's largest cellphone maker claims it has successfully entered into license agreements with about 40 companies for those initial 10 patents. Industry experts have thus speculated that Nokia is likely seeking compensation from Apple in the form of royalty payments in the range of $6 to $12 per iPhone rather than an injunction that would halt the sale of the touch-screen handset.

Earlier this month Apple countersued Nokia, charging the Finland-based company with "stealing" technology from 13 of its own patents. The suit also alleged that Nokia was attempting to obtain more money from Apple than other companies, in addition to the rights to the iPhone maker's intellectual property -- all after the Finnish company had committed itself to nondiscriminatory licensing.

"In dealing with Apple, Nokia has sought to gain an unjust competitive advantage over Apple by charging unwarranted fees to use patents that allegedly cover industry compatibility standards and by seeking to obtain access to Apple's intellectual property," Apple wrote in its complaint. "Nokia needs access to Apple's intellectual property because Nokia has copied and is now using that patented technology."

Apple added that Nokia "remained focused on traditional mobile wireless handsets with conventional user interfaces," while the iPhone revolutionized the way consumers use smartphones.

"As a result, Nokia has rapidly lost share in the market for high-end mobile phones. Nokia has admitted that, as a result of the iPhone launch, 'the market has changed suddenly and [Nokia was] not fast enough changing with it.' In response, Nokia chose to copy the iPhone, especially its enormously popular and patented design and user interface."

As the iPhone has grown in popularity, Nokia has retained its status as market leader, but has lost significant share of the market it once dominated. As recently as August, Nokia's Symbian mobile platform was said to have a 50 percent market share, well down from the 72 percent the platform had in 2006. In the second quarter of 2009, the iPhone represented 14 percent of global smartphone sales.

Though Nokia still controls the market, competitors Apple and Research in Motion are said to have profit margins that far exceed their market share. More specifically, industry analysts declared their belief last month that Apple's iPhone operating profit is the highest in the mobile phone industry, helping it overtake market leader Nokia to claim the handset profit crown during its last financial quarter.
post #2 of 105
I guess Nokia has got nothing in the pipeline to compete with the iPhone so if you can't beat em, sue em.
post #3 of 105
Nokia is the new Microsoft, which was the new Third Reich.
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Fragmentation is not just something we have to acknowledge and accept. Fragmentation is something that we deal with every day, and we must accept it as a fact of the iPhone platform experience.

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post #4 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryb View Post

I guess Nokia has got nothing in the pipeline to compete with the iPhone so if you can't beat em, sue em.

Agreed. Reminds me of the vista advertising commercial. This money to development of new products, this huge stack of money to sue people.
post #5 of 105
I would love to see a good synapse of this complaint. I cannot even begin to phantom where in the UI apple leveraged what Nokia or any of it's symbiam partners were doing.

For the more technical aspects.. why cannot they say for example.... their patent introduces the concept of using" foo circuit in this pattern under this material doing this and that where as apple uses the same circuit with the same material doing this and that and this".



Sorry... but I am a bit upset by the use of the courts for negotiation and general business practices. Along with thinking as others do... that the patent system is screwed beyond repair.
post #6 of 105
sounds like they are saying that everything about the iphone is copied from them. from top to bottom.

so why not just say it. and whip out their version for the world to see all the nasty cheating that Apple has done.

I find it very very very hard to believe that Apple's legal department didn't do their due diligence on all possible patents 20 times over before the iphone launch in 2007 and since.

Or that Nokia's lawyers took 2 and a half years (and how much in profit for Apple) to realize and do something about this blatant thievery of their hard work.

A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

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A non tech's thoughts on Apple stuff 

(She's family so I'm a little biased)

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post #7 of 105


My my, how times have changed in 2009.

The only thing that will stop Nokia's downward slide is innovation + rethinking what it means for users to interact with mobile devices + a great interface/OS + a robust app store + reducing some of that hardware fragmentation.

In short, Nokia has to start over. This isn't 7 years ago.
post #8 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Nokia is the new Microsoft, which was the new Third Reich.

choose your comparisons more wisely.
post #9 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidT View Post

choose your comparisons more wisely.

Well, the "Microsoft Empire" would be the Fourth Reich by that logic, anyway, which doesn't necessarily bear any resemblance to Nazi Germany, aside from the term itself being coined by a Nazi (Reich means "empire.") The First Reich being the Holy Roman Empire, and the Second Reich being the German Empire of the late 19th century, created by Bismarck.
post #10 of 105
I guess this one will drag on like the Polaroid/Kodak instant camera suit dragged on and on until the very technology changed to digital which got Polaroid nowhere.
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The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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post #11 of 105
Seems that both companies are raising the rhetoric to insane levels to beat their chests like gorillas then settle out of court with some kind of cross licensing. I doubt either company is sin-free have both stepped on each other.

Either way, me too thinks this is all lame.
post #12 of 105
Quote:
These patented technologies are said to allow Nokia to facilitate better user experiences

Better than... what, exactly?
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post #13 of 105
I hope Apple will defend itself properly on these patent claims. Sounds like Nokia is running scared of Apple's iPhone and other technology, and is trying to use the legal system to keep Apple at bay.
post #14 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

In short, Nokia has to start over. This isn't 7 years ago.

I think youre right. Nokia may be down for the count but they are far from being on their last leg, like Palm seems to be with their desperate moves and poor decisions despite having a potential winner on their hands. Nokia has plenty of money and therefore plenty of time to regroup, restructure and R&D a true competitor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Seems that both companies are raising the rhetoric to insane levels to beat their chests like gorillas then settle out of court with some kind of cross licensing. I doubt either company is sin-free have both stepped on each other.

It sure comes across that way.
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post #15 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by sflocal View Post

Seems that both companies are raising the rhetoric to insane levels to beat their chests like gorillas then settle out of court with some kind of cross licensing. I doubt either company is sin-free have both stepped on each other.

Either way, me too thinks this is all lame.

This is the normal way for patent infringement allegations. Usually companies will try and cross-license on the quiet before a court hearing. Only when that fails do they go in to the expensive lawyer paying mode... And then the usual response is the counter-sue and so on.

Here though it does seem like Nokia is serious about seeing this out. I doubt Apple would want to cough up anything like those `speculated' royalties, so they will likely fight tooth and nail.
post #16 of 105
Nokia sucks , apple rocks...

Look at how games are played in iphone, MUTI-touch supports up to 5 fingers, nokia?? NONE.... NOKIA should REALLY think how suck their flagship phone N97 is ... this is TOTALLY rubbish...
post #17 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisatosAngel View Post

This is the normal way for patent infringement allegations. Usually companies will try and cross-license on the quiet before a court hearing. Only when that fails do they go in to the expensive lawyer paying mode... And then the usual response is the counter-sue and so on.

Here though it does seem like Nokia is serious about seeing this out. I doubt Apple would want to cough up anything like those `speculated' royalties, so they will likely fight tooth and nail.

After Apple countersued Nokia they just freaked out completely and pulled out all their guns in one go, basically saying: "We own 100% of the iPhone! Now pay us."
This puts Apple in a good spot, since this is a ridiculous claim.
Maybe what Nokia is really after is access to using the iPhone related patents so that they can try and do something similar.
post #18 of 105
What this means is that iPhone is cleaning Nokia's clock, and they have no answer but to file lawsuits.
post #19 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I think youre right. Nokia may be down for the count but they are far from being on their last leg, like Palm seems to be with their desperate moves and poor decisions despite having a potential winner on their hands. Nokia has plenty of money and therefore plenty of time to regroup, restructure and R&D a true competitor.



It sure comes across that way.


Yea, Rubenstein, minister of propaganda and the falsely attributed "father of the iPod", sure fell on his face gambling on Palm, but I suspect he had no choice.

He was used up at Apple, conning people with the PowerMac G5 and the PPC from IBM as the greatest computer ever. QWACK!

Boy are a lot of people angry about that. Me included. I lost a considerable investment with just one announcement of the Intel switch.

His revenge? Leeching off iTunes.

funny sh*t.
The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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post #20 of 105
Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
post #21 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.

If "virtually all Apple devices violate its patents", why hasn't Nokia used any of them?? Where's their amazing multi-touch app phone with the slickest UI around? Where's their iPhone killer? Never mind that, where's their Android Killer? Where is ANYTHING currently inspiring or truly impressive from Nokia that is currently in the hands of the everyday user?

Nokia is a joke. Like anyone cares how much experience they have when they've done virtually nothing for the past two years except churn out the same old devices and experience a historic slide in share and stock. Apple has shown them up in every department, overnight. Experience . . . . . right.

This nailed it:

"In contrast, Nokia made a different business decision and remained focused on traditional mobile wireless handsets with conventional user interfaces. As a result, Nokia has rapidly lost share in the market for high-end mobile phones. Nokia has admitted that as a result of the iPhone launch, 'the market changed suddenly and [Nokia was] not fast enough changing with it.' (citation)...In response, Nokia chose to copy the iPhone, especially its...patented design and user interface."

http://www.betanews.com/article/Appl...nts/1260559533
post #22 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

If "virtually all Apple devices violate its patents", why hasn't Nokia used any of them?? Where's their amazing multi-touch app phone with the slickest UI around? Where's their iPhone killer? Never mind that, where's their Android Killer? Where is ANYTHING currently inspiring or truly impressive from Nokia that is currently in the hands of the everyday user?

Nokia is a joke. Like anyone cares how much experience they have when they've done virtually nothing for the past two years except churn out the same old devices and experience a historic slide in share and stock. Apple has shown them up in every department, overnight. Experience . . . . . right.

You can tap dance around the issue all you want. Nokia doesn't have to invent another phone for the next 10 years, but if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY. Is that too hard to understand. It has nothing to do with Android, multi-touch, UI's, etc... It is about Apple infringing on Nokia's patents. Is that too hard for you to understand.
post #23 of 105
Ahh... Too bad Nokia couldn't come up with their own iPhone even with all those patents.
post #24 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Nokia is the new Microsoft, which was the new Third Reich.

Do we have to drag the Nazi's into this? The Third Reich was responsible for the brutal murder of millions and millions of people. Nokia, Microsoft, Apple are companies doing business. Unless it is illegal, in which case it is should be dealt with by the relevant legal authorities, we may not like a company but it but it is not on par with the death of 6 million Jews and the millions of others who died fighting the Third Reich.

---
Sorry, just saw that davidT already dealt with this much more succinctly than I did.
post #25 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulk001 View Post

Do we have to drag the Nazi's into this? The Third Reich was responsible for the brutal murder of millions and millions of people. Nokia, Microsoft, Apple are companies doing business. Unless it is illegal, in which case it is should be dealt with by the relevant legal authorities, we may not like a company but it but it is not on par with the death of 6 million Jews and the millions of others who died fighting the Third Reich.

Sorry, just saw that DavidT already dealt with this.

Thank you. Sometimes it is embarrassing to be an Apple enthusiast. Not because of the great equipment but because of other Apple users who write crap referenced above.
post #26 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

You can tap dance around the issue all you want. Nokia doesn't have to invent another phone for the next 10 years, but if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY. Is that too hard to understand. It has nothing to do with Android, multi-touch, UI's, etc... It is about Apple infringing on Nokia's patents. Is that too hard for you to understand.

In light of what Apple has produced, and in light of Nokia's failure to innovate, their share and stock slide, and their decision to claim two years later that Apple happened to violate all of its patents ( ), yes, I understand perfectly.
post #27 of 105
The cold war goes nuclear. Nokia sees the future and it ain't pretty. Trying to slow Apple down a bit and maybe pick up a piece of the action. Two problems: Apple isn't going to licence ANY IP to ANYBODY; Microsoft tried that with Quicktime when Apple was struggling and it didn't fly then: Apple these days has a humungeous pile of cash and will be unafraid of any protracted legal fight.
post #28 of 105
Woot! A thousand posts! Oh damn 1001 now...
post #29 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinney57 View Post

Woot! A thousand posts! Oh damn 1001 now...




post #30 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Thank you. Sometimes it is embarrassing to be an Apple enthusiast. Not because of the great equipment but because of other Apple users who write crap referenced above.

must be particularly embarrassing in finland, eh? does everybody in the country work for nokia?
post #31 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofino View Post

must be particularly embarrassing in finland, eh? does everybody in the country work for nokia?

How would I know where everyone works? I don't work for Nokia. Oppsss....... Your stereotyping is showing.
post #32 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinney57 View Post

The cold war goes nuclear. Nokia sees the future and it ain't pretty. Trying to slow Apple down a bit and maybe pick up a piece of the action. Two problems: Apple isn't going to licence ANY IP to ANYBODY; Microsoft tried that with Quicktime when Apple was struggling and it didn't fly then: Apple these days has a humungeous pile of cash and will be unafraid of any protracted legal fight.

Yeah, these are all "cold war"-style patents. They are not meant to be used or enforced, just there to keep other companies (and IP holding companies) at bay. I have no idea what Nokia is thinking... they would have eventually recovered. Instead they are stooping to the level of IP holding companies. This is what happens when you abandon R&D. Maybe Nokia will be the next SCO or Rambus?
post #33 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulk001 View Post

Do we have to drag the Nazi's into this? The Third Reich was responsible for the brutal murder of millions and millions of people. Nokia, Microsoft, Apple are companies doing business. Unless it is illegal, in which case it is should be dealt with by the relevant legal authorities, we may not like a company but it but it is not on par with the death of 6 million Jews and the millions of others who died fighting the Third Reich.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Thank you. Sometimes it is embarrassing to be an Apple enthusiast. Not because of the great equipment but because of other Apple users who write crap referenced above.

They are not saying it was actually like the Third Reich. People compare things to Heaven and Hell all the time. It doesn't mean they were actually as bad as Hell or as good as Heaven. If you want to say something is bad you compare it to the worst thing you can think of. This comparison is doing nothing but respecting those who suffered. These comments are basically just trolling for attention.

Not that I'm defending the original post... I wish people would stay on topic or leave better comments then "Nokia sux as much as Microsoft". We need a moderation system to vote down off-topic and crude remarks. :-)
post #34 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBill View Post

What this means is that iPhone is cleaning Nokia's clock, and they have no answer but to file lawsuits.

My sentiments exactly.

They probably sat in front of their road map and realized they won't be able to pay the bills down the line...
post #35 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

You can tap dance around the issue all you want. Nokia doesn't have to invent another phone for the next 10 years, but if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY. Is that too hard to understand. It has nothing to do with Android, multi-touch, UI's, etc... It is about Apple infringing on Nokia's patents. Is that too hard for you to understand.

You obviously did not read the article. Apple wants to pay for patents according to the same terms other cell phone makers do. Industry compatibility standards are commonly licensed under so-called "Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory terms (FRAND)" and without any demands for using patents of the licensing party in return. Nokia wanted to overcharge Apple and set conditions that would force Apple to let them use patents that belong to Apple and do not deal with industry compatibility standards, but specific product details giving them a competitive advantage. While I do not know the Finnish word for it, we call it "blackmailing".

Considering the above, all the comments accusing Nokia of desperation and lack of own innovation are at least reasonable. If they have own innovations in the pipeline, why overcharge and blackmail Apple, and demand other conditions from them than those granted to Sony, HTC, LG, Motorola, Siemens, Samsung, etc ad lib?

Fact: Neither the N97 nor the N900 are remotely close to the iPhone (or even the Pre) in terms of usability and user experience - actually they can't even compete with Android. And Nokia has already indicated that they will cut back on high end phones in 2010. They have been in hibernation for half a decade, milking consumers selling always the same product in new fancy shells. That is what happens to dinosaurs.
post #36 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by g3pro View Post

Nokia is the new Microsoft, which was the new Third Reich.

Godwin's Law fulfilled in the second post... new record!
post #37 of 105
Actually, the truth is brought out pretty clearly by reading both Nokia and Apple's complaints. From reading both, I think Apple's positions seems more realistic.

Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.


Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.

Apple's real position is not that Apple shouldn't have to pay Nokia something if Nokia's patents are valid, but that the amount paid must be same as Nokia receives from all other licensees. So, if Nokia charges other companies $1 a phone, that is what it must charge Apple. Further, Apple is claiming that Nokia is trying to force Apple to cross license Apple patents that are not part of the GSM standard and as such Apple is not required to license to Nokia.

Apple's position just seems more likely to be closer to the truth. Apple already pays other members of the trade group for the right to use their patents [e.g. Sony Erickson]. Why wouldn't Apple pay Nokia it's licensing fees if they were fair, reasonable, and undiscriminatory? Nokia cannot just ask Apple for whatever it wants, but it must offer Apple the same terms as other licensees for the right to use the GSM patents.

Moreover, Apple's position will be easier to prove. Either Nokia is attempting to get more from Apple then other licensees or not. If the answer is Nokia is trying to get more from Apple, then Nokia is discriminating against Apple and Apple should prevail.

Further, Apple should easily be able to show that it's patents it is claiming Nokia is violating are not part of the trade group. If they are not, the issue just becomes one of showing whether or not Nokia is using them.

Nokia's complaint with the ITC is just designed to put added pressure on Apple to settle the matter because the ITC has the power of stopping imports and it makes decisions much quicker then a court. Apple likely will in Nokia's step and file a similar complaint with ITC.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
post #38 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

You They have been in hibernation for half a decade, milking consumers selling always the same product in new fancy shells. That is what happens to dinosaurs.

Shortened for brevity. No offense meant.

I agree with you that their recent phones have been colossal disasters. 100%. The N97 sold millions but had quite many returned. Many, many. I am friends with the flagship store manager here in Helsinki and I took mine back after just 10 days. Got an N86 which is a much better phone. Anyway, Apple is claiming that they have to pay more than anyone else. This could be the case but then LG, Ericsson, Motorola, etc... would all have to disclose how much they are paying for the same technology. If Apple is paying the same, then it would stand to reason that they do not have a case. If Nokia is over charging them, which might be the case, then Apple has a valid argument. Until someone has actual insight into all of the tech specs, and pricing models, a clear outcome can not be reached.
post #39 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell View Post

Actually, the truth is brought out pretty clearly by reading both Nokia and Apple's complaints. From reading both, I think Apple's positions seems more realistic.

Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.


Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.

Apple's real position is not that Apple shouldn't have to pay Nokia something if Nokia's patents are valid, but that the amount paid must be same as Nokia receives from all other licensees. So, if Nokia charges other companies $1 a phone, that is what it must charge Apple. Further, Apple is claiming that Nokia is trying to force Apple to cross license Apple patents that are not part of the GSM standard and as such Apple is not required to license to Nokia.

Apple's position just seems more likely to be closer to the truth. Apple already pays other members of the trade group for the right to use their patents [e.g. Sony Erickson]. Why wouldn't Apple pay Nokia it's licensing fees if they were fair, reasonable, and undiscriminatory? Nokia cannot just ask Apple for whatever it wants, but it must offer Apple the same terms as other licensees for the right to use the GSM patents.

Moreover, Apple's position will be easier to prove. Either Nokia is attempting to get more from Apple then other licensees or not. If the answer is Nokia is trying to get more from Apple, then Nokia is discriminating against Apple and Apple should prevail.

Further, Apple should easily be able to show that it's patents it is claiming Nokia is violating are not part of the trade group. If they are not, the issue just becomes one of showing whether or not Nokia is using them.

Nokia's complaint with the ITC is just designed to put added pressure on Apple to settle the matter because the ITC has the power of stopping imports and it makes decisions much quicker then a court. Apple likely will in Nokia's step and file a similar complaint with ITC.

Yup. It has to be determined what Nokia is charging the others and what they are charging Apple. This will most likely be the determining factor.
post #40 of 105
It has been utterly amazing to watch this discussion.

I am always intrigued with how whole heartedly one will argue a point until faced with facts.

Unfortunately the other subjects do not work this way.

If they did, 90% of conflicts would be resolved in a matter of hours.
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