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Google's Nexus One takes on Droid as Apple's iPhone App Store grows - Page 2

post #41 of 129
Droid = copyrighted name for the CDMA version of the Milestone, exclusive to Verizon,


The Google Voice beta program does not extend to Australia or many countries outside the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bstring View Post

Just FYI, this is only true for CDMA carriers with calls placed over 'the cell voice network' when no wifi is present. Fortunately, Android phones can make/receive VOIP calls over 3G without jailbreaking. Also, with Google Voice, inbound calls can be transferred without the other caller even knowing. Freedom...
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post #42 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by bstring View Post

Just FYI, this is only true for CDMA carriers with calls placed over 'the cell voice network' when no wifi is present. Fortunately, Android phones can make/receive VOIP calls over 3G without jailbreaking. Also, with Google Voice, inbound calls can be transferred without the other caller even knowing. Freedom...

Since you are deflecting the complaint about simultaneous data and voice by qualifying the circumstances, then it is only fair that you qualify the circumstances in your subsequent jab at the iPhone. To whit, I think the fact that you can't make VOIP calls over 3G without jailbreaking is more due to Apple's agreement with various carriers than anything else. Obviously, it is possible, and obviously they could allow it in a heartbeat -- since, similarly, certain carriers around the world allow tethering, while others do not.

Rather than using this to prove that Apple loves to curtail your personal freedom, feel free to reflect on how much freedom you would have with your carrier and with your phone and platform, if that combination happened to be responsible for 50% of the mobile data usage on the planet. And this, only because it was so dang easy and fun to do, despite the grey cloud and absolute bitter resentment you must feel every iPhone user walks around under, all the while dwelling on the almost palpable curtailment to his most cherished freedoms that he inevitable feels at every turn.

I'm sorry that you go around feeling that way about the iPhone -- must be a real downer for your freedoms, having to congratulate yourself everytime you see someone happily using an iPhone. Because it is sure to happen a lot.
post #43 of 129
anyone know why there is an 11 page limit to apps installed on the iphone. i've only had the iphone for 1 month and i've hit the limit already with 14GB of space left! i can play musical chairs with the syncing between itunes and the iphone but that is inconvenient. it's like what is the point of having 200,000 or 1 million apps in the app store but you can only install 176 apps with around16 apps taken by apple already. 176 divided by 200,000 is 0.00088 or .088%!!!
post #44 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnwuch View Post

anyone know why there is an 11 page limit to apps installed on the iphone. i've only had the iphone for 1 month and i've hit the limit already with 14GB of space left! i can play musical chairs with the syncing between itunes and the iphone but that is inconvenient. it's like what is the point of having 200,000 or 1 million apps in the app store but you can only install 176 apps with around16 apps taken by apple already. 176 divided by 200,000 is 0.00088 or .088%!!!

1) The point of any store is to offer items you may want to buy, not expect everyone to want every item from that store. Most App Store items dont appeal to my needs.

2) There is an 11 page limit but there is no known limit as to the number of apps you can install. You can find non-listed apps by using the search feature.

3) You arent accounting for free trail v. full apps, multiple version of the same app types for different categories, apps for specific religions, genders, life choices, etc. Frankly, Im surprised youve found over 11 pages of apps that you want to have with you all the time.

4) I have four pages and they arent full. I use different pages for categorizing. Hopefully Apple will offer a hierarchal folder system for v4.0.
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post #45 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) The point of any store is to offer items you may want to buy, not expect everyone to want every item from that store. Most App Store items dont appeal to my needs.

2) There is an 11 page limit but there is no known limit as to the number of apps you can install. You can find non-listed apps by using the search feature.

3) You arent accounting for free trail v. full apps, multiple version of the same app types for different categories, apps for specific religions, genders, life choices, etc. Frankly, Im surprised youve found over 11 pages of apps that you want to have with you all the time.

4) I have four pages and they arent full. I use different pages for categorizing. Hopefully Apple will offer a hierarchal folder system for v4.0.

i have 3 pages worth of game already, then 1 each for messaging/social, shopping, traveling, tools, education, lookups (encyclopedias, stocks, etc), news, apple's default apps. so it adds up pretty quickly.

the ideal number of pages for me would be about 20. i like the ways the apps are layed out, it just seems like a strange artificial limit.
post #46 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnwuch View Post

i have 3 pages worth of game already, then 1 each for messaging/social, shopping, traveling, tools, education, lookups (encyclopedias, stocks, etc), news, apple's default apps. so it adds up pretty quickly.

the ideal number of pages for me would be about 20. i like the ways the apps are layed out, it just seems like a strange artificial limit.

I really dont know why they have 11 pages. I think they first had 7 pages with v2.0.

Why is 20 pages ideal? It sounds like you are just choosing it because its 2 x 10. If there are 150k apps then youd need 9,375 pages to get through them all. That would take forever.

Anything more than 4 pages is too much for me to bother with. Perhaps Apple thought that most people arent going to even come close to 11 pages and so stopped after adding those extra four. I would expect an improved system to be released this summer.
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post #47 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnwuch View Post

anyone know why there is an 11 page limit to apps installed on the iphone. i've only had the iphone for 1 month and i've hit the limit already with 14GB of space left! i can play musical chairs with the syncing between itunes and the iphone but that is inconvenient. it's like what is the point of having 200,000 or 1 million apps in the app store but you can only install 176 apps with around16 apps taken by apple already. 176 divided by 200,000 is 0.00088 or .088%!!!


most likely it's a RAM issue

do you use all the apps? i'm always deleting apps i don't use. my most used ones are the kids apps. my 2 year old just figured out how to switch between his apps if he gets bored with one.
post #48 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Droid = copyrighted name for the CDMA version of the Milestone, exclusive to Verizon,


The Google Voice beta program does not extend to Australia or many countries outside the US.

Actually any Android phone on Verizon is called a Droid. Hence the Droid Eris.
post #49 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I'll be buying a Nexus One if I can buy it unlocked and use it on T-mo. Sorry, Steve. You need to end exclusivity... and fast.

You know what's really funny, other than your post? ... the iPhone is selling at an ever increasing rate, ... despite missing out on your single purchase ... maybe SJ actually knows what he is doing .... go figure.
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post #50 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

Then, obviously, the author's idea of what constitutes growth is different than yours. Just sayin'.

I was not trying to prove a point that the Android Market grew more than the Apple App Store, I was simply saying that the author's words were directly contradicting the chart cited in his article. I further explained myself in post #17 and shouldn't have to again for your benefit; facts are facts. And I apologize for using slang in my original post (i.e. just sayin'). I only meant to reinforce what I thought was an obvious error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

One would think that the sheer number of apps would increase quite quickly in the Android store, maybe for a variety of reasons: maybe there are thousands and thousands of developers all over the world that have traditionally developed apps for WinMo, Symbian, Java, etc. and are jumping on the new, hyped platform; maybe all the apps that got submitted to various stores opened by different phone manufacturers and different carriers all finally got submitted to the flagship store; whatever. One would hope that the apps are there with all this talk about how great Android will be and how all the phone manufacturers and carriers are going to get on board.

An obvious measure of real "growth" is not how many variations of a fart app a developer can come up with, but the real use of the store by customers. The author does well to recognize this. Everyone was surprised, probably most of all Apple, that there are 100,000 apps in the iTunes store.

While true, this really only strengthens the argument for Android's Market. How many of the 150,000+ apps from Apple's store are unique? Of course any application store for any platform will have redundancies, but the great thing about the Android Market is that it is not restricted and allows you to make your phone yours. Don't like the default home screen? Grab a replacement. Don't like the size, color, or name of any of the shortcuts on your home screen? Grab an app that will change them. I feel that this is "the real use of the store by customers," to do what they want to do with their phone and not have its basic functionality controlled by the manufacturer.

As for everything else, the Android Market is developing so quickly that for any app on the Apple Store (aside from games, Apple wins there,[for now ]) there is one on the Market that will offer the same function.

And Apple wasn't surprised they had over 100,000 apps in their store, they reviewed and approved every single one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

Furthermore, an iPhone app developer need only produce one version of his app, instead of multiple versions for umpteen different phone configurations.

This is a great point. Android app developers do have a much bigger task if they want their product to be as widespread as possible. I think that Google is banking on the Droid and the upcoming N1 to popularize and stabilize the Android platform, and give developers a baseline for future development.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

However, it is not so surprising that Apple can maintain consistent and accelerating growth on the buying/downloading side with their industry-leading store and experience with music downloads and movie rentals, etc. This is where the money is for the developers and this is what serves the customer, which in turn leads to even more growth.

Itunes most definitely has a stronghold on the digital media distribution market, that is for sure. Although I don't see much opportunity here for other developers to make money, unless I'm missing something?

Personally I can't stand Itunes (I know, you weren't expecting THAT, right?) because of its proprietary nature. But again, that's just me, and I totally understand how easy it makes everything for so many people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

Now, if Google is going to run their store like MS did, then the growth they want to see IS the number of apps alone: because they are fleecing the developer with subscription and submission fees and know that there are few customers who can actually figure out the store, figure out how to delve through all the crap about versions and hardware specs, and after all that, fewer still who will pay the exorbitant prices for that crap.

This one I think is a bit off-base. The Android platform as a whole (the OS, the developer's kit, etc.) is open-source. Google offers it all for free. No one pays Google to develop on Android. Plus, since Android is Linux based, there are many, many people out there who are familiar with the operating system and know how to program for it. And as I said before, now that the Droid and N1 are bringing Android into the mainstream I think the platform will stabilize. But who knows, I've been wrong at least once before (probably in this post) .

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

The author implies (and he has several articles on this) that the gap will only increase since everything Apple does is reinforcing its one mobile platform while Google does not seem to care that they are fragmenting theirs. There may be lots of apps on the Android store, but each potential customer can only use a given percentage of them depending on his phone, Android version and carrier; even apps that would work on a given hardware configuration will not be as readily useable since the OS version may be stuck until Google gets around to dealing with the carrier -- by contrast, iPhone OS updates are pushed out universally and ready for you when you synch with iTunes. This means that each Android customer cannot just browse the store and download just anything that strikes his fancy.

Please see my opinions about Google's strategy above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

I have an iPod Touch and over 300 active apps in my iTunes library. I could download new apps all day long. I could do nothing but try out new apps all day long. Fortunately, I have some self-control and allow myself iTunes app sessions just a couple of times a month. I might download 20 or thirty apps in one go, that I have heard about or read a review of on a blog. If I just browsed iTunes app store on these occasions, I could easily happily spend hours and download hundreds of new apps.

Neat. (Sorry, I'm getting tired.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post

Despite the billions of iPhone apps downloaded, not everyone with an iPhone or iPod Touch can yet relate to my interest in new apps -- my dad can't (he isn't into finding new apps yet, though he loves his iPhone). Yet he is now browsing iTunes with his new Apple TV. So, the potential for even more incredible growth is there just waiting to explode.

Apple most definitely has their business model in place (keep everything straight-forward, easy to use, and wrap it up nice and pretty) and that is perfect for so many people. I just like at least a little bit of freedom (or customization, or options, or whatever you'd like to call it).

P.S. Apple has a TV service now??
post #51 of 129
P.P.S. Why do Iphone and [insert-Iphone-killer-name-here] owners constantly try to put one another down? Why can't we all just say that we love our phones, whichever one it is that we own, and having cell phone service providers/manufacturers/OS developers compete for our hard-earned money is great for all of us! In one, or two, or three years, when it comes time to renew our contracts, just think of the excellent options we'll have because of the market competitions taking place right now.

I just bought a new phone and I'm already excited!
post #52 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Solution 1: Jailbreak iPhone, install Backgrounder.

Solution 2: Dont run 3rd-party apps on iPhone.

I have Backgrounder installed right now with the latest version of Proswitcher. It is a barely tolerable and slow solution. Also because of ram limits, it simply dumps whatever apps it wants to with regard to keeping background tasks open and since Apple demands certain tasks always remaining running, it allows (realistically) one real third party app to remain open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Anything more than 4 pages is too much for me to bother with. Perhaps Apple thought that most people arent going to even come close to 11 pages and so stopped after adding those extra four. I would expect an improved system to be released this summer.

I'm thinking your right and also share the same view about the four pages. How fun is it to really scroll ten times to get to an app you want to use? We have the same opinion here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I'm already using T-Mo, so I have nothing to lose. Also, I'm not particularly interested in 3G, just a marginally better phone than the one I'm using now.

I've used T-mobile as well and wonder how it is that you care nothing about 3G. I obviously care nothing about it because I bought a 2G phone to play with and hack around on. But I couldn't imagine having a 3G or 3Gs and just leaving the features unavailable.

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post #53 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbee View Post

You know what's really funny, other than your post? ... the iPhone is selling at an ever increasing rate, ... despite missing out on your single purchase ... maybe SJ actually knows what he is doing .... go figure.

Or maybe he's just one of millions who would buy an iphone but refuse to switch to AT&T so they'll buy another phone for their respective carrier.

Apple has done it nearly everywhere else, its only reasonable to expect it to happen soon...if it comes to TMo I know my friend is gonna be pissed he just left them after having their loyalty plan for the 3GS lol
post #54 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

I have Backgrounder installed right now with the latest version of Proswitcher. It is a barely tolerable and slow solution. Also because of ram limits, it simply dumps whatever apps it wants to with regard to keeping background tasks open and since Apple demands certain tasks always remaining running, it allows (realistically) one real third party app to remain open.

Do you have a 3GS? I don’t have it installed on my 3GS but did with my 3G. The results you have remind me of my 3G iPhone with background apps. 128MB simply isn’t enough with iPhone OS taking up about 45MB for the OS, not including any native or 3rd-party apps. With the 3GS’ 256MB there is 84MB free and inactive even with the iPod playing a high-quality classical piece chosen for it’s compleity and because it’s ALAC, with Push MM mail and the 3rd-party PNS running.

RAM-wise, that should be plenty for the average extra app or two. How well the Cortex-A8 and Backgrounder app can balance multiple apps that are all built to run in the foreground is a different story.
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post #55 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

Yes, but when will that be? Can Apple afford to just update annually, now that more and more competitors are entering the fray?

If it means the difference between releasing something that is well executed vs. something that is buggy and not ready, they can't afford to release annually on a schedule if they aren't ready.

And they won't. That's the difference. Apple pretty much resists releasing on a schedule, or against a checklist of features. That's what makes them successful. As soon as they become a slave to either the checklist nazi's or the pundit's release schedule they become just another vendor focused on the wrong thing instead of what's important (the customers experience!)

I'm not worried about them slipping
post #56 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpics View Post

here are lotsa smart people not working in Cupertino and lots of capital being invested in non-Apple efforts. And if there's a giant corporation people have as much positive attachment to as Apple, it's Google.

I disagree. Google, like Microsoft, coasts on a cash cow that it blundered into. For Google, it's search advertising revenue. That's it. They, like Microsoft, are a one trick pony. Like Microsoft, it's a big trick - but it's a single important revenue stream none-the-less.

So far they haven't shown they have a clue on how to be successful in the mobile space. Apple is successful because of their relentless drive for the end user experience - and not just on the device, but the entire experience (i.e. making AT&T agree to alter their service to support visual voicemail, the Apple stores, etc.) Right now the key differentiator for the Android (other then it being Google! and Verizon!) is the upgraded Map app. So what if Apple releases their own Map app? Nothing that google is doing is special - indeed, after using Google maps and getting bad directions on routine basis if that's what Google is using for their updated app on Android no thanks - I'll stick with companies like Navigon or TomTom that actually focus on routing algorithms as part of their core business.

Quote:
I'd be guilty of the reverse bias if I compared what happened last time Apple had market share, mind share and unified platform/software advantage, i.e., the time just before the Apple II got crushed by a motley bunch of manufacturers with inconsistent implementations running multiple versions of an buggy, immature operating system from Microsoft.

Apple of the 90's is nothing like Apple today. Mobile devices are the next big thing beyond personal computers, and Apple is there and they actually have a plan and are executing on all cylinders.


Quote:
Still, they're not invulnerable and Msr. Jobs will retire someday - and his personal charisma, however tightly he's still able to hold the reins and how much mojo he personally brings to the office these days, is Apple's greatest public asset.

While Jobs is an undeniable influence, I do think his sole importance tends to be overblown.

Quote:
And the iWhatever could yet turn into a solution looking for a problem and be the next Newton - really, really cool but not a mass success, or the 4G iPhone could just be a warmover (that's happened with Apple refreshes before as well) and the public is fickle.

Sure, it could. Even though I owned a Newton and still miss some aspects of it, remember the Newton was Scully's baby and one of the first things Steve killed when he got back. The handwriting recognition worked much better then people who never owned one or used one for any period of time made fun of. Each iPhone release has been a bigger success then the last, and if the tablet is released it's a save bet to assume it will be huge success as well.

The MacBook Air was universally panned (and hard!) by the tech press and the blogosphere - yet it's been high on the Amazon charts from day one.

Quote:
Or not. I'm just sayin' I'll still read Prince's articles, but more for the facts he pulls together than for his often over-extrapolated conjectures on same.

He writes for a fanboi site - what do you expect? Just filter out the obvious over the top stuff and move on.

Or don't read his articles.

Honestly I don't understand why so many people get worked up over his articles. He's up front about what they are - either read and enjoy them or don't. But the continual whining about his writing style is beyond tired at this point \
post #57 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Do you have a 3GS? I dont have it installed on my 3GS but did with my 3G. The results you have remind me of my 3G iPhone with background apps. 128MB simply isnt enough with iPhone OS taking up about 45MB for the OS, not including any native or 3rd-party apps. With the 3GS 256MB there is 84MB free and inactive even with the iPod playing a high-quality classical piece chosen for its compleity and because its ALAC, with Push MM mail and the 3rd-party PNS running.

RAM-wise, that should be plenty for the average extra app or two. How well the Cortex-A8 and Backgrounder app can balance multiple apps that are all built to run in the foreground is a different story.

No I stated pretty clearly that I have an iPhone 2g. The real point though is that while it is a pretty decent hack, one that I have employed myself, it isn't true multitasking. The combination of it and Music Controls will give me background Pandora without any real interruptions. But my typical nerdvana is messed up when browsing and having to SMS at the same time. I've even got BiteSMS installed to deal with 90% of it of that as well but occasionally still have to quit the browser and go to the app so that I can deal with something.

The real point is that Apple should be the leader and now we are reduced to saying that if you jailbreak, install backgrounder, pro-switcher, music controls and BiteSMS (or something similar) you can almost get what you have on Android or even what I know I do with my Storm.

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post #58 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by nesnayu View Post

And app developers will also like

Unless developers are the majority purchasers of the phone, their wants are pretty much useless at this point.

It's not about the developer, it's about the user.

Having said that, I think you are discounting what Apple has - they have a pretty compelling and mature developer environment. If they didn't, you wouldn't see the kinds of Apps that are being produced.

So you can hang on to open source and superior hardware all you want but in the end they don't mean squat if the rest of the equation sucks - or doesn't even stand up to what Apple provides as part of the whole package. Individual parts aren't going to cut it - you have to compete with the whole iPhone ecosystem if you hope to surpass it. So far no one else seems to have a coherent plan other then shouting random thoughts like "It's the network" or "our hardware has more features" or "our software is open source". Most people could care less about any one of those individual components. It's only when geeks gather in places like this with other geeks (see internet echo chamber) that the importance of all this techie jargon matters. I guarantee you most of my friends or family couldn't care less about 98% of what is being argued in this thread.

That, in a nutshell, is why Apple is (and unless some major attitudes change, will continue to be) successful.
post #59 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

No I stated pretty clearly that I have an iPhone 2g. The real point though is that while it is a pretty decent hack, one that I have employed myself, it isn't true multitasking. The combination of it and Music Controls will give me background Pandora without any real interruptions. But my typical nerdvana is messed up when browsing and having to SMS at the same time. I've even got BiteSMS installed to deal with 90% of it of that as well but occasionally still have to quit the browser and go to the app so that I can deal with something.

The real point is that Apple should be the leader and now we are reduced to saying that if you jailbreak, install backgrounder, pro-switcher, music controls and BiteSMS (or something similar) you can almost get what you have on Android or even what I know I do with my Storm.

1) You did, but under your reply to SpamSandwich, which I merely skimmed over missing your comment about the HW you have.

2) The original and 3G have the same CPU type and RAM amount so those results should be identical, perhaps even a little worse in the 3G when processing more data from HSDPA as opposed to EDGE.

3) As you and I have both seen, the first two iPhones simply can’t do background apps feasibly just as they can’t do video feasibly despite there technically being a video camera app for the first two iPhones.

4) Some argue that much older phones have background apps with less RAM and this true, but these phones aren’t nearly as powerful or resource hungry as OS X is for the iPhone.

5) I fully expect iPhone OS v4.0 getting background capabilities and that is will likely only be for the 3GS onward, due to the very real RAM limitation. I also expect this to be an API like the Push Notification Service that developers choose which apps and which services for their apps are allowed to run in the background and the user will choose which app(s) from a list in settings to have run in the background when they press the Home Button. This is the only method that makes sense to me at this point.

6) With Apple’s acquisition of Lala I wonder if they’ll add a streaming service to their iPod app. This would alleviate most of the complaints i hear from people about background apps, which to run Pandora the way the iPod app runs in the background. Even if they do that I also expect intelligent backgrounder app to be included with the next OS version. Slapping in some code to make all apps run in the background and requiring manual shutting down of apps simply isn’t the way to go here.
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post #60 of 129
THe analogy with Play for Sure is interesting. If google kills droid (with this launch on the heels of the Verizon's does machine) it will also kill itself. Feels like the wrong move, or the wrong strategy. All of attention should have been on Droid, if only to make it special and attractive. Now attention is split, which is bad for the platform.

If google wanted a pure phone, it should have been Droid, since it seemed from all the ads and buzz that Droid will be revolutionary device. That it will be google's all out OS effort, plus amazing hardware from MOTO to make a comeback, plus Verizon's service which was gonna blow everyone away. Instead we got another Palm pre.

IF Nexus One is the way Google hopes to stop splintering, then it should have been fully made by Google, with manufacturer's name not even mentioned and ran a moded and differentiated version of Android, something like G-roid or something, with different logo, boot screen and general feel. That way we could have had unsplintered phone from google (unlocked and unified) or get regular splintered android from your local carrier.

Anyway, Android is starting to look like WinMo, which is sad news for Google, the anti microsoft.

Sorry for venting



OOOOO PS: Nexus One should have been a VoiP Operated phone (Through google voice), which would come with data plan only, kinda like a netbook.
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post #61 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

1) You did, but under your reply to SpamSandwich, which I merely skimmed over missing your comment about the HW you have.

2) The original and 3G have the same CPU type and RAM amount so those results should be identical, perhaps even a little worse in the 3G when processing more data from HSDPA as opposed to EDGE.

3) As you and I have both seen, the first two iPhones simply cant do background apps feasibly just as they cant do video feasibly despite there technically being a video camera app for the first two iPhones.

4) Some argue that much older phones have background apps with less RAM and this true, but these phones arent nearly as powerful or resource hungry as OS X is for the iPhone.

I definately see your point but also wonder if a little more programming magic wouldn't solve the problem. The G1 appears to do well but it does have a bit more ram from what I understand. My own set up does well but the issue has more to do with the various hacks banging together at odd ways periodically or it just being a bit clunky due to not being official. As an example if Pandora is merely backgrounded, it ends up quitting due to the ram limitation within backgrounder. If I add music controls something within that gives it the same priority as running the iPod program. It doesn't skip. It doesn't quit and it I have no problems with it. So clearly part of this is just Apple cleaning up and endorsing a solution. Likewise they might have to give up on the home button. Exactly how many times can we tap it to still add something?

Quote:
5) I fully expect iPhone OS v4.0 getting background capabilities and that is will likely only be for the 3GS onward, due to the very real RAM limitation. I also expect this to be an API like the Push Notification Service that developers choose which apps and which services for their apps are allowed to run in the background and the user will choose which app(s) from a list in settings to have run in the background when they press the Home Button. This is the only method that makes sense to me at this point.

I have no doubt that even if they could add it to the prior iPhones, they probably won't. What better to inspire shiny new sales than shiny new features.

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6) With Apples acquisition of Lala I wonder if theyll add a streaming service to their iPod app. This would alleviate most of the complaints i hear from people about background apps, which to run Pandora the way the iPod app runs in the background. Even if they do that I also expect intelligent backgrounder app to be included with the next OS version. Slapping in some code to make all apps run in the background and requiring manual shutting down of apps simply isnt the way to go here.

It isn't just about streaming music Pandora is very good at what it does in terms of finding new music for you. Apple has their genius mechanism but I have songs I have purchased that it can't make recommendations on that Pandora has actually recommended to me. We are talking about very little known bands that it has found for me. There is a reason everyone wants to stream Pandora. Also Apple needs to be a good citizen. It isn't about if they can out compete everyone in every endeavor. It should be about them being the best platform for all the talent to want to do their magic on. The very real fear is that Android seems to be getting this buzz. We don't want Apple to become Microsoft in that they have to beat everyone at everything.

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post #62 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

So clearly part of this is just Apple cleaning up and endorsing a solution. Likewise they might have to give up on the home button. Exactly how many times can we tap it to still add something?

The solution I proposed would let them keep the single home button. I think this is important and why Apples paradigm works. Even now many companies try to compete with Apple priming spec sheets with bolt on features. This is fine for some but I want ease of use to be a primary goal, and that includes longevity of use. Having an extra button for every new feature defeats the purpose just as having every app run in the background, slowing down the UI, worsening my user experience and draining the battery even faster.It

It needs to be controlled and well thought out for a device you expect to carry on your person and use throughout an entire day. WebOS, Android, WinMo and others it wrong, IMO.

Palm had announced that they were working on a PNS, too, but I have a feeling that it has failed. I think its great. I have 4 apps that I essentially have on all the time yet only have simple process running to get updates. Except for internet radio there is no other common 3rd-party app type that really needs constant background running in the background.

One thing WebOS and Android get right is the notifications system. Its just so primitive on the iPhone. I expect this to be updated with v4.0. I also hope, though doubtful, that theyll create an API for developers to create Home Screen and Menu Bar widgets so you can get a variety of data without unlocking your device. This would be simple background apps so the aforementioned task would have to have added in some regard for this to work. I can go on with changes I want to see, but Ill save that for another thread.

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I have no doubt that even if they could add it to the prior iPhones, they probably won't. What better to inspire shiny new sales than shiny new features.

They have been good with giving out new robust updates each year. Eventually they have to stop and I was surprised that your iPhone got v3.0. Three full years of OS support seems a little much to me, then again I by anew phone and computer every year so Im atypical in that sense. Still, they give the update for all the devices at once and this year it came out before the 3GS actually hit the street so it could have made some forego an update if they felt the v3.0 OS was more than suitable.

If you get the next iPhone you are going to be amazed at how fast it is compared to yours. Going from the 3G to the 3GS was night and day. Id say the HW and OS didnt really come into its own until the 3GS. OS X might be refined and Apple may have done a great job making it work in the iPhone, but its still a hefty OS for a mobile platform.
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post #63 of 129
It's really simple why "nexus one" is comparing itself to the Droid instead of the iPhone.

[CENTER]CAUSE THEDROIDAIN'T A ROBOT!!!![/CENTER]
post #64 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

I disagree. Google, like Microsoft, coasts on a cash cow that it blundered into. For Google, it's search advertising revenue. That's it. They, like Microsoft, are a one trick pony. Like Microsoft, it's a big trick - but it's a single important revenue stream none-the-less.

To say that is too not understand Google at all. Google understands the consumer and consumer experience better then Apple. Google only offers free products, or in the case of Google Nexus One, probably a product they make no profit on. All Google cares about is consumer experience. Google is in the business of connecting with consumers and making user experience the best it can be, then making money off b2b. Why do you think they held off so long displaying ads in youtube? They let everyone else run ads until we got used to seeing them, then added them to youtube and we don't care because its the same or better service we get from anywhere else and it's free!

They are going to do the same exact thing with their phone. They will not care about profit at all with the OS, the phone, or the wireless. They just want the best possible user experience for the consumer so that it guarantees they are the ones who are connected to the consumer because that is where the money and power is.
post #65 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by practical View Post

They are going to do the same exact thing with their phone. They will not care about profit at all with the OS, the phone, or the wireless. They just want the best possible user experience for the consumer so that it guarantees they are the ones who are connected to the consumer because that is where the money and power is.

Google only cares about making money by advertising and data(services).
Their profit is based on that.
As far as I know You can't run an Andriod phone without a Google Account.
That's not the user experience I prefer.
post #66 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by DominoXML View Post

Google only cares about making money by advertising and data(services).
Their profit is based on that.
As far as I know You can't run an Andriod phone without a Google Account.
That's not the user experience I prefer.

Google tries to use ads to add the user experience. At least with search I often find myself clicking on ads because they sometimes are more relevant. How is getting a Google account that bad of a user experience? It doesn't take much effort to sign up for a gmail account, much easier then signing up for an iTunes account.
post #67 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post

Unless developers are the majority purchasers of the phone, their wants are pretty much useless at this point.

It's not about the developer, it's about the user.

Having said that, I think you are discounting what Apple has - they have a pretty compelling and mature developer environment. If they didn't, you wouldn't see the kinds of Apps that are being produced.

So you can hang on to open source and superior hardware all you want but in the end they don't mean squat if the rest of the equation sucks - or doesn't even stand up to what Apple provides as part of the whole package. Individual parts aren't going to cut it - you have to compete with the whole iPhone ecosystem if you hope to surpass it. So far no one else seems to have a coherent plan other then shouting random thoughts like "It's the network" or "our hardware has more features" or "our software is open source". Most people could care less about any one of those individual components. It's only when geeks gather in places like this with other geeks (see internet echo chamber) that the importance of all this techie jargon matters. I guarantee you most of my friends or family couldn't care less about 98% of what is being argued in this thread.

That, in a nutshell, is why Apple is (and unless some major attitudes change, will continue to be) successful.

Bingo!
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post #68 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by practical View Post

Google tries to use ads to add the user experience. At least with search I often find myself clicking on ads because they sometimes are more relevant. How is getting a Google account that bad of a user experience? It doesn't take much effort to sign up for a gmail account, much easier then signing up for an iTunes account.

I try to avoid advertising because it takes the focus on my current work.
I can't see how personalized ads help me to do my job in a more efficient way.
They just help me to improve consumption and desire to buy things.

I can use iTunes without an iTunes-Account and as long I don't open the shop or enable Genius I can just concentrate on my music.

The google account is mostly about productivity tools like mail, calendar, docs.
I prefer ad-free alternatives for my work. BTW I don't use chat, social networking etc. very much and I turn down notifications for programs because I hate to be disturbed. So I pay for my applications, servers etc. to get a as productive environment as possible.
You might call me unprogressive, but I want to store my stuff on my devices and my servers with my local account.

Just my decision. No blame to people who think different.
post #69 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by practical View Post

To say that ... bla-bla...bla-bla...

They are going to do the same exact thing with their phone. They will not care about profit at all with the OS, the phone, or the wireless. They just want the best possible user experience for the consumer so that it guarantees they are the ones who are connected to the consumer because that is where the money and power is.

You misspelled your forum name... it should be "impractical"

I'm actually a Google fan... but I wouldn't ever consider them a "consumer-oriented company". What does make Google "good", is that they stick to the "KISS" principle: Keep-It-Simple-Sam (Sucker).
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post #70 of 129
A separate OS manufacturer and a separate hardware manufacturer...hmmm....where did this model get it's ass kicked by apple, let me think....
post #71 of 129
RE. people who said 11 pages are not enough, granted, but wait up a few months because I am sure OS 4.0 will have a spanking new approach to app management to complement the current one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42 View Post


He writes for a fanboi site - what do you expect? Just filter out the obvious over the top stuff and move on.

Or don't read his articles.

Honestly I don't understand why so many people get worked up over his articles. He's up front about what they are - either read and enjoy them or don't. But the continual whining about his writing style is beyond tired at this point \

Exactly, the articles are very well written stylistically and of much higher level intellectually than pretty much every run of the mill pc site. If some points seem like they are made for preaching to the choir, well, that's the whole point.
post #72 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnwuch View Post

i have 3 pages worth of game already, then 1 each for messaging/social, shopping, traveling, tools, education, lookups (encyclopedias, stocks, etc), news, apple's default apps. so it adds up pretty quickly.

the ideal number of pages for me would be about 20. i like the ways the apps are layed out, it just seems like a strange artificial limit.

I think it would work better if they use folders in addition to the pages. It seems to me that people prefer to organize their apps in categories. I want to be able to have a folder for games, social, news... etc. I think there is something similar used in jailbroken iPhones.
post #73 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

I'll be buying a Nexus One if I can buy it unlocked and use it on T-mo. Sorry, Steve. You need to end exclusivity... and fast.

No he doesn't. And we won't miss you.

Daniel Swanson

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post #74 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by quinney View Post

Yes, but when will that be? Can Apple afford to just update annually, now that more and more competitors are entering the fray?

Of course they can, and they're probably glad to have something to leap frog over.

Daniel Swanson

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post #75 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper31 View Post

I was not trying to prove a point that the Android Market grew more than the Apple App Store, I was simply saying that the author's words were directly contradicting the chart cited in his article. I further explained myself in post #17 and shouldn't have to again for your benefit; facts are facts. And I apologize for using slang in my original post (i.e. just sayin'). I only meant to reinforce what I thought was an obvious error.

I don't feel it is an obvious error as the whole paragraph surrounding the graphic is dealing with downloads. He doesn't shift gears in the last sentence of the paragraph merely because he has inserted an extra phrase that describes the sizes of the stores. If you read many of this author's articles you will discover they may require a bit of close reading. And they deserve it since they are packed with more context, history and analysis than the average tech article; indeed he will throw in a lot of phrases that will deepen the picture and I admit that these can distract from his point.

In this case, I can only assume he didn't flesh out the point, as you have alluded to below, that one would think the Android store has more potential for growth: maybe the Apple store has peaked and all the apps that anyone can conceive of or has up their sleeves have already been written (I kind of doubt that, though); maybe the Android platform has more possibilities for different types of apps because it has less control, as you keep arguing (though I doubt this too, since the surface has barely been scratched for iPhone control of external devices and hardware addons!).

Despite these factors, however, and though the Android store has shown a higher percentage gain in number of apps added -- who's actually using the most? And which platform is seeing more rapid growth in their use? People on one phone on a limited number of carriers, or people who have a choice of handsets and carriers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper31 View Post

While true, this really only strengthens the argument for Android's Market. How many of the 150,000+ apps from Apple's store are unique? Of course any application store for any platform will have redundancies, but the great thing about the Android Market is that it is not restricted and allows you to make your phone yours. Don't like the default home screen? Grab a replacement. Don't like the size, color, or name of any of the shortcuts on your home screen? Grab an app that will change them. I feel that this is "the real use of the store by customers," to do what they want to do with their phone and not have its basic functionality controlled by the manufacturer.

Oh this is great! This is like MS Windows and PCs all over again! Great, you get to "customize" your desktop and stick your own stickers all over an ugly device to cover up all the ugly stickers and logos the manufacturer, the OS creator and the carrier put all over them. Whoopee. I change the opening screen pic on my iPhone from time to time. But hey, it's all about the apps and what I actually get done with it. I don't care what the thing looks like (well, actually I do, which is another reason to appreciate Apple's understated but superior industrial design and solid glass and aluminum/stainless stell materials and great form factor).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper31 View Post

As for everything else, the Android Market is developing so quickly that for any app on the Apple Store (aside from games, Apple wins there,[for now ]) there is one on the Market that will offer the same function.

Great, let me know when my three-year old has a cool animated tracing program for him to practice writing letters and simple words; or when I can measure a room's dimensions by pointing the camera; or a thousand other interesting things that are actually quite useful and well implemented so I (or my three-year old) don't have to think twice about how they work, it's just obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper31 View Post

And Apple wasn't surprised they had over 100,000 apps in their store, they reviewed and approved every single one.

For sure, but I don't think anyone would have predicted this turn out.

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Originally Posted by Trapper31 View Post

Itunes most definitely has a stronghold on the digital media distribution market, that is for sure. Although I don't see much opportunity here for other developers to make money, unless I'm missing something?

Well, I have to agree: no, they don't. Unless you count the possibility of web apps or something. But this is one of the points that supports the whole article, isn't it? That the iPhone OS platform is actually growing the most and in all likelihood will continue to do so. Do you dispute this? The fact is, iTunes and Apple's experience with the iPod over the years is a great track record for why people should actually have confidence that Apple knows what it is doing and can continue to grow as they apply their experience to new markets. Really, this is quite evident. So much for the difficulty that these "computer guys" would face as they entered the market of phones for the first time in competition with the big guys in the industry who had been doing it for years. I guess the big guys got shook up.

Will Android now shake up the phone market again? That is the question, isn't it. The Android platform may be more "interesting" to you and your friends; but the plain interest among Joe consumer in the iPhone platform, despite the fear among the overly geeky and hobbyist set as to the perceived Apple control factor, cannot be denied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper31 View Post

Personally I can't stand Itunes (I know, you weren't expecting THAT, right?) because of its proprietary nature. But again, that's just me, and I totally understand how easy it makes everything for so many people.

Don't worry, rumor has it that APple is experimenting with direct internet access. It's LP special content for example, is apparently composed of pure HTML5 with some clever java script libraries. Apple and Google see eye to eye on the need for open internet standards. I am confident that Apple can hold its own in this arena, too. Really, have you compared the look and feel of Apple's websites and online services and apps to those of Google? Google sure has a real eye for detail, design and usability. Apple better watch out . Oh yeah, I forgot, it's all about freedom of expression; doesn't matter if you can use the darn thing or not! Let's just say, most Apple users like to express themselves in the work and projects they produce with their tools, rather than having their tools doing the expressing. Apple empowers the creative soul here by taking a back seat so that you can get on with your work. You may dispute this, each to his own though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper31 View Post

This one I think is a bit off-base. The Android platform as a whole (the OS, the developer's kit, etc.) is open-source. Google offers it all for free. No one pays Google to develop on Android. Plus, since Android is Linux based, there are many, many people out there who are familiar with the operating system and know how to program for it. And as I said before, now that the Droid and N1 are bringing Android into the mainstream I think the platform will stabilize. But who knows, I've been wrong at least once before (probably in this post) .

I wasn't saying that Google now charges developers. But if the focus is on all this "freedom", how can the developer develop his own viable business? That is a significant question for the Android platform. Who is the developer aiming at? What device or spec or OS version should he concentrate on? Does he have a big potential market or not? Great, more carriers and more phone producers are using Android than iPhone -- doesn't mean the actual market for each developer's app is actually larger. Far from it. That's one of the issues affecting growth here. Sure seems to make the Android platform less "interesting" for developers.

And yeah, it's "free": if you like intrusive ads all over everything. We'll see an Apple alternative soon as they develop a web business model for real content that consumers will value enough to pay for. Hence one already sees a plethora of iPhone apps that are essentially just direct links to content providers, such as WSJ, Sports channels, etc. These are some of the most popular apps there are.

Regarding MS: Google "seems" to be making some of the mistakes that MS has historically made. Here Apple, and RIM, have proven that "making the whole widget" may be preferable in this market. Google could do this despite having never before made hardware, yet they seem to be going the MS Desktop OS route -- and without the control (your bugaboo) that MS historically held over its hardware partners Google seems to be fracturing their platform (another point from this author). Apple, on the other hand, is not looking to the Desktop OS for a model, but to the iPod. Let's see which is rewarded with more sustainable growth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper31 View Post

Please see my opinions about Google's strategy above.

I shall do that. Though the question arises whether Google has a real strategy -- other than stopping MS from closing the web and mobile devices to Google's ads. If they have a strategy for Android, it seems pretty confusing. I am sure it is confusing to most Android developers too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper31 View Post

Apple most definitely has their business model in place (keep everything straight-forward, easy to use, and wrap it up nice and pretty) and that is perfect for so many people. I just like at least a little bit of freedom (or customization, or options, or whatever you'd like to call it).

Well, please see my opinions about Apple's strategy above -- Yeah, the web is Google's thing, but I think Apple will continue to develop new technologies for the web and computing in general, and they will continue to develop new platforms, devices and business models that the most people will find the most interesting, thus leading to the most growth. It's that simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapper31 View Post

P.S. Apple has a TV service now??

Stay tuned
post #76 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post


In this case, I can only assume he didn't flesh out the point, as you have alluded to below, that one would think the Android store has more potential for growth: maybe the Apple store has peaked and all the apps that anyone can conceive of or has up their sleeves have already been written (I kind of doubt that, though); maybe the Android platform has more possibilities for different types of apps because it has less control, as you keep arguing (though I doubt this too, since the surface has barely been scratched for iPhone control of external devices and hardware addons!).

The App Store is here to stay, and will only get bigger. As Apple increases the capabilities of the iPhone and its OS, new possibilities will open up for greater app variety, in terms of apps taking advantage of new phone features and functions. There's no stopping the iPhone or the App Store. Apple has way too much momentum and mindhsare on its side, and it looks like the iPhone is turning into an iPod phenomenon.

As new technologies become available Apple will gradually allow them in, they'll loosen control here and there but still maintain their position as gatekeeper, and so they should. New tech might appear for other platforms first, but it will only become truly meaningful and popular when it comes to the iPhone. This is the reality of the situation.
post #77 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post

If you thought Att's 3G coverage sucked, wait until you use T-Mobile.

That being said, I'd still use T-Mobile.

allowing the phone to spread to other carriers pulls some of the complaints off the phone and to the carriers where they belong. and could potentially reduce strain on ATT's network to the benefit of all customers.

not to mention that some healthy compet could benefit us rates wise.

all of this is part of why many people do not buy any rumors about switching to a new carrier in the summer. because it just doesn't make any sense in the long run.
post #78 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post

Once the next iPhone hits it's back to the drawing-board for everyone else.

That's possible but I thinks its improbable. Even if the 4th iPhone has a 1GHz processor its still gonna run an OS that can also run on the iPhone 2G. I'm sure that Apple can make a rockin OS for the 3GS but doesn't. Backwards compatibilty is gonna hinder Apple real soon real fast.
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"I got the answer by talking in my brain and I agreed of the answer my brain got" a 7 yr old explaining his math HW
"Just because something is deemed the law doesn't make it just" - SolipsismX
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post #79 of 129
Google's Nexus One takes on Droid

So . . . Google's phone is going to take on their other phone that is manufactured by the company they partnered with?

Hmmm . . . .
post #80 of 129
Why does this article read exactly like the one at Roughly Drafted, minus a few HTC comments?
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