Google's Nexus One takes on Droid as Apple's iPhone App Store grows - Page 3

Can you remind me what exciting new features the 3GS provided?

Faster Processor - pretty standard feature on every new phone
Better Graphics - again pretty standard
MMS - Apple finally added what was a pretty standard feature on every other phone
Video Recording - again, pretty standard on every other phone with a camera
Voice Command - already available on plenty of other phones
Tethering - pretty standard on other smart phones (and still not available in the U.S.)

Magnetometer - Score one for Apple!
Oleophobic Coating - Number two!

Maybe it's just me but Apple's R&D dept isn't looking very good when all it came up with for new was a compass and a screen coating for the 3GS. Hardly features to salivate over.

But you don't hear people here saying how Apple copied features like MMS and video recording...

Well I'd hope so given it releases 6 months later. Besides, both the snapdragon and the samsung ARM used in the iphone 3GS are same generation processors (Cortex A8). Apple could kick the 3GS up to the fully rated speed at the cost of battery life.


ObjectiveC. C was developed in 1972. How old a language is isn't an advantage. Plus Java wasn't developed until 1995 and finally stopped sucking around 2004 with 1.5. Some folks argue it didn't really stop sucking until 1.6 Update 10 (mostly gui devs).

And it should seem pretty obvious that Apple is not Microsoft and Microsoft isn't a major hardware producer but it does tightly control the software used on its hardware (Zune, XBox, etc).


This is not an advantage. Not for Linux vs the Mac OSX and not for Android vs the iPhone OSX.


If you were a mobile developer (or any kind of developer) you'd be slightly less clueless about the platforms you're talking about. Personally, I prefer Java to ObjC but I'm used to Java and not ObjC.


Sure, just like we see symbian and winmo. So what?


All with different capabilities, software enhancements and screen dimensions. This is just like mobile java development. Which, in a word, sucks.


I write software on my 2009 mini ($600), in .NET, Java and a little ObjC on the side.

Well if all you want to do is a feature checklist comparison then heck, WinMo phones probably win...

The point is that the platform is a rapidly evolving moving target for competitors to match. For Android to catch OSX it needs bullet points and nicely designed foundational APIs and dev tools so devs can easily and quickly use them.

The disadvantage for android is that the hardware isn't also controlled by Google while Apple can dictate that all iPhones moving forward have magnetometers.

to an extent it is, you need to be packing certain hardware to be able to run the latest version of android, the one thing i truly dont like is there being so many different software out (donut, eclair, flan..wtf else there is...) because the upgrades are very small in steps.

WinMo is the same way, and iirc the base requirements for Win7 is like a 600mhz and 512 ram and a capacitive screen and some other things i cant remember off the top of my head.

Whatever upgrade comes in the summer (i SEVERELY doubt we'll see a processor or memory boost) your gonna get very slim hardware improvements, and in fact it will proabably focus on a new radio chip for verizon and the new OS4 and multitasking (then everyone will swoon over whats been here for years by competitors) more than it will the phone.

As someone developing Android apps, I can confidently state that the Cocoa framework and Objective C > Java on the Android and it's performance limitations. That being said, hopefully the Nexus will last longer than the G1 which cannot be upgraded to Firmware 2.0 because of internal flash RAM limitations. 400$ + down the freaking drain.

How is iPhone OS stacking up against the Android NDK?

For me there are some additional big points for Apple.

1. I have by now a wonderful integration with my desktop- and server-applications.

2. My iPhone works great with my loved car hi-fi system (iPod-connector) and hands-free.

3. I never had problems updating the OS or Apps.

4. Although it's not the most important point I would miss some really great games.

5. The Apple "Roadmap" for developers, providers and customers shows a good balance between moving forward and giving devs enough time to test and explore new or changed API's.

The upgrades from 2.x to 3.x were amazing and brought great feature.
4.x will step further.

I judge my invest to be future proof.

BTW: I was able to compare my 3G with a 3GS and got a "must have feeling", but I think I can wait for the next version while I my current device doesn't feels to be out-dated.

His bullet points are superficial and far from complete. He doesnt quantify the increased performance of the processor nor even mention the doubling of the RAM, which I find to be two very important aspects as to why I choose to upgrade my 3G after having it less than a year. Turning Mac OS into iPhone OS was not an easy task and the first iPhones were basically at their HW minimum to run the OS decent enough to be a viable product. The Cortex-A8 and 256MB RAM finally brought the iPhone into its own. Older and simpler mobile OSes can use older and simpler HW, but iPhone OS cant.

I have doubts about Apple upping the RAM this time around. The current system, even with multiple apps running in the background (non-3rd party apps) there is still a fair amount of RAM left over, unlike the first two iPhones. Unless they want to allow more than a couple background apps and have very little regulation over how it functions while running in the background I think well stick with 256MB for another year. I also wonder if well get a new processor this year or just a higher clock speed of the Cortex-A8. I suppose it depends on which is more effective for the device. Any idea is the Cortex-A9s offer better performance per watt?

He also doesnt mention the faster NAND or HW encryption with the device. Perhaps something most people dont consider but everyone likes the faster storage access even if they dont realize it.

Everyone overlooks the importance of smartphone accessories. thanks to the iPod, the iPhone has by far the widest variety of third party plug in accessories of all kinds, all compatible with one dock connector. and thanks to its 3.0 OS, they can now be integrated with on-board apps too. iPhone friendly cars, hotel rooms, etc. are popping up everywhere. it's all part of the Mac "ecosystem," but the pundits never include them in their iPhone vs. whatever match-ups. dummies,

looking at today's post in Giz about the Nexus Google phone, it mentioned in passing a connector pin socket in the phone. but there is no dock yet (it uses a mini USB cable). it made me realize that apparently there is no standard Android connector/doc spec! which means that Android's accessory potential will be badly fragmentized too - and if so so few plug in accessories will become available.

sure, USB and blutooth can provide alternative means for connections, but neither is as simple and convenient as a physical dock - plug and play, and it safely stays put.

I totally agree. Everyone chooses a phone and carrier that suits there needs. You don't hear flip phone owners arguing. Not one single "HEY you copied off the StarTAC". Form and function has always been copied by other makers and will continue to happen. Apple did that. Everything the iPhone is already existed, Apple just did a great job putting it all together in a very nice package. As a VZW customer I'm happy that they finally offer very good phone. No phone will kill the iPhone but if VZW can stop people from leaving for the iPhone and maybe pick up a few ex-iPhone users than the Droid is a success.

No, I think he is right. Time to say Sergey and Larry they'd better close their shop, they have no chance. Prince for the president !

Boy, Obj-C is a mess and XCode is really a bad joke. Java might have performance limitations in some cases (games) but at least you don't have to do manual memory management as a retard monkey.

Its just you, not Google nor T-Mobile who said the G1 can't be upgraded to 2.0 - in fact, the last info bits we are getting are quite positive in that regard.

Just him? You think that makes for a valid argument despite Android v2.0 launching over two months ago and the only way to get v2.0 is from a hack? There is word that it may get v2.1 but that isnt hear yet, I dont think its official and its a little late to finally give a phone that is only a year old an update that other devices got. HTCs planning is about as sound as your argument.

Since the G1's hardware isn't sufficient enough, wouldn't the Android 2.x upgrade just be a dumbed down port?

They have to cut corners somewhere to deal with HTCs short-sidedness, but it remains to be seen how it will affect the usability compared to v1x and what v2.1 features will be ported. Hopefully they are clever enough to keep this G1 owners in good form for another year.

Personally, I can care less how many thousands of apps are available... I can only really install 160 apps at any one time with current iPhone/iPod Touch constraints....

yeah but you can have hundreds on your computer and choose which to load when - rotate games, have special travel groups, etc. iTunes 9 makes it super easy to manage your apps and organize their display. try that with Android - oh wait, it has no desktop administration application. too bad. and it can't store very many on board thanks to its design anyway. ah! maybe up in the Cloud!

That was a nice addition but I think the iPhone needs to have folders.

Obj-C 2 (Mac OSX since Leopard) has the ability to use garbage collection. Unfortunately the current iPhone SDK doesn't support it yet.

I don't think that reference counts and autorelease pools are for retard monkeys.

http://memo.tv/memory_management_wit...c_cocoa_iphone

Yes, it would be great to have both options on the iPhone, like on the Mac (2007).

i just finished watching the 10 minute video of the Nexus One on Engadget and i must say i am thoroughly impressed. It might not be an iPhone killer by itself but if this is what we are to be expecting from the next year from Android...Apple might need to do a bit more work for wow factor.

Can I remind you of this the next time we all say "WOW, Apple's done it again"?

The 10 minute video has been removed from YouTube. The short video showcasing 3D graphics is still up. That was the best Ive seen on a phone. Very responsive UI which we havent seen much of from Android.

Please do, but it has to pertain exactly to the iPhone mmkay since thats what im talking about.



I agree, the Droid was good but this blows that out the water. The theme effects on the home screen i thought were pretty amazing, and the 3D demo was pretty amazing as well but im pretty sure thats due to the Snapdragon processor since there is a demo of Tekken 3 running on the HD2 as well on Engadget.

While im not hopping ship from BB, i am more intrigued by the Nexus One especially if this is where Google is looking to take the platform

Its seems impossible to me to prove that his post could be incorrect. He gave an opinion that he was impressed, stated no absolutes about what will happen, and them stated "Apple might need to do a bit more work for wow factor which I assume is pretty true for every product in that they are always doing a bit more all the time.

Garbage collection on Mac is completely irrelevant to iPhone developers (at least for now). While manual memory management help SOME applications to have better performance (not all applications really have any problems with performance, mostly its some games), it is less productive for ALL applications to write them using manual MM. There are other areas of Obj-C where it really look ancient - separate .h files where you have to double the class definition, pointer arithmetics... and XCode is really bad IDE.

On the other hand Cocoa is pretty decent framework. Just wonder why every object starts with NS prefix. If they remove this, how many keystrokes of poor iPhone developers would be saved ? Billions ?

Still your rationale that G1 will NEVER get the 2.0 update is far fetched. What can be said is that having all devices updated to latest version of the OS as soon as possible is clearly not preference for neither Google nor T-Mobile. So what ? Most users are quite happy with the 1.5 version of OS they got with the original G1. At least it comes with Copy&Paste functionality right of the box.

My guess is that before we'll see iPhone 4 all the devices would get the 2.0 update, so the Android platform would be quite homogeneous.

To your points:

1. separate declaration

Your right this bothers and I think the IDE could automate or synchronize this.
But it's not an problem that really hurts productivity when you get used to it.

2. XCode is a bad IDE

I'm coming from other languages and systems and I totally disagree.

You will have to get used to it, but it supports the MVC concept in a pretty clear and structured way. I'm used to IDE's with a higher UI integration and it's sometimes hard to get used to it, but I think there are some advantages in getting the code and structured like this when it comes to bigger projects and clean design.

Calling it bad is your personal opinion. I think it's just the result of a different philosophy we have to get used to.

Part of that philosophy is optimization. There are tools like shark and instruments that make it possible to get the "best" out of your code.
You might not worry about this, because your projects do not need this performance tweaks, but for me it was one of the main reasons to begin to learn Objective-C. I think techniques like CLang, LLVM, GCD and OpenCL are all about efficiency. To be honest I'm not sure if my old brain can handle this, but it's a clear vision of high "code-efficiency" for the next years.

If you prefer the more integrated way that's fine. But in this case I think Visual Studio and .Net are the benchmark.

3. Pointers

It's obvious that pointers can lead to buffer-overflows, memory-leaks and memory fragmentation. Even experienced developers run into this troubles.
It's the price for some advantages like more efficient and dynamic memory management. E.g. You can sort elements in a List without having to create new copies.
When you call a function without to have to provide the variable and you can point to a known variable in order to avoid to allocate multiple memory copies.

As far as I know Java is internally working with pointers, but "hides" them.
Not sure if it's possible, but if Apple would find a way to define a similar "auto-pointer" (possible loss of efficiency) for those who need or want it. I'd like it.

4. The NS-Thing

Its historical (Next Step) and it's a common technique to add a prefix in order to mark classes as "mine" or "system".
May be it's possible to configure the IDE to hide/cut the NS-Prefix and append it at compile- or translation-time. This might cause a lot of trouble.
I'm a beginner. Until now I have the experience that using cocoa isn't about typing a lot of code. We would have to ask an experienced cocoa dev, but our billion keystrokes seem to be exaggerated.

5. Garbage Collection

Apple has got two years of experience with it from the Mac. Hard to say how big the memory or performance penalty would be, but I'd be pleased to see it in iPhone SDK 4.

Come on AI, this is real competition for the iPhone. What does it have to do to get some acknowledgment that for consumers this is probably the best other smart phone currently available (or soon to be available)?

You do realize all those "themes" and "effects" are due to Android 2.1 and not some special software only available on the Nexus One, right? The Droid will have all those features on Jan 22 when 2.1 becomes available. Let's keep that in mind, shall we?

Moving on...I love the discussion of "splintering". As if there is a potential iPhone user out there who knows or cares about splintering. More important, is that splintering isn't even an issue going forward. Not with the Droid at least. It will have 2.1. And I believe by the end of 2010, every other manufacturer of an Android phone will make sure their phones have it as well. Nothing to see here.

1) As usual you either don't read before posting or don't comprehend what you are reading. I clearly stated that v2.0 is available for the G1 and that there is word of it officially getting v2.1.

2) Obviously other vendors don't care about, and likely hate the idea of, increasing your usability of your device through regular updates. It's quite silly for you to have a problem with Apple offering rich updates into the third year of iPhone use, unless you work for a company whose profits are dwindling because you can't compete with Apple, then I'd understand your hatred for the iPhone.

And in the meantime...

So will Motorola license HTC's TouchFlo 3D?

Will they stick with MotoBlur for the Droid or has HTC, by incorporating TouchFlo 3D into Android, just given away their IP?

The Droid doesn't have MotoBlur.

It doesn't have TouchFlo 3D either.

I agree with the basics here but just because you do not like Apple, does not mean that they are always the bad guy. If you read ALL of Prince McLean / Danial Dilger's articles, I think you might come to a different conclusion. Just a thought.


Got it. You do not like Apple. They are bad. They should do better than anyone cause... er .. ou want them to. I would say that with only 10% US market and only 3% world market, their market cap is 75 % that of Microsoft..... Apple is flat out killing everyone out there.

They made TONS of money last year when the other PC makers were just trying to hang on. I would guess that they are doing SOMETHING right. Just a thought.




Got it, you do not like Apple. Say good things about Apple and it pisses you off.

Great, buy any Dell stock lately? Hate Apple, buy Dell, or MS (it actually is rising lately. weird). The main point that people bring up today that is negative Apple is they do not like it. Not the products, the company. Just how weird is that.

I hate the parking in Redmond....... Does that mean that Microsoft sucks??? (well yes it does suck, but..... you know what I mean. :-) )

Just a thought,
en

If you jailbreak, you can start sorting them into folders. Other than that you're stuck playing musical chairs.

Well, one would hope that by the end of a given year each manufacturer, "will make sure their phones have it as well". One does wonder if that will be for their new phones, or if those consumers who purchased their phone going back 12-18 months can have the upgrade too? And will it be easy to upgrade their phones, or will the carrier have something to say about it too? Or, will the age and specs of the phone preclude them from the possibility of upgrading, as we have seen in some cases already?

The point is, Android is fractured, whether potential customers of any one of dozens of phones and carriers know it or not and care or not. Here you have Android being promoted as a great platform, but it DOES matter, at least in the short term, which phone and carrier you go with as to what features you get.

Can a potential phone customer just look at the Android platform as a unit and say, wow, I can't wait to get all that stuff on my phone? No, he can't. He has to look at individual phones and contract deals to see what he can get. Whether anyone cares what that is called or not, that is "splintering", my friend.

The platform is fractured in a couple of ways:
• A carrier may dictate some features or some customization (and upgrade path/schedule)
• The phone itself may dictate what features are possible, regardless of software
• It may depend on which carrier and/or producer is the flavor of the month with Google.

The market is, therefore, also fractured: in that an Android app developer has to aim his resources carefully at the phones/customers he wants to hit. And customers have to not only find apps in a number of different places, they have to worry about which ones will and will not work on their phones.

All this does lead back to why the "platform" of the iPhone may be stronger and may grow faster than the "platform" that is Android. One would think that as long as more phones, phone producers and carriers are deploying Android, that such a huge potential market would cause great strength and growth for the Android platform. But is that actually proving to be the case in reality? Hopefully it isn't issue going forward.

As you say, splintering may not keep a potential iPhone customer from choosing a particular Android phone over an iPhone (again, that will be on a phone to phone basis), but will some of these issues (or non-issues to you) keep Android from the leaps and bounds it could have, if it wasn't, how shall we put it, so, um, splintered?

I think there's a good argument to be made that it is analogous to the PC vs. Mac wars of the past decades, with Android playing the role of Windows (except it's free/open which makes it all the more powerful!). When you buy a new Android phone, it will have the latest version of Android. At least from this point on (I honestly don't know whether, for example, the G1 can be upgraded), I know that starting with the Droid, the phones should be upgradeable. Just like someone buying a PC now will upgrade their version of Windows 7 to Windows 8 in a few years. Yeah, there are PC's out there right now running Windows XP, Vista, or even 2000. Of course, that's not splintering, it's just normal product cycle working like it should.

As I said earlier, if Google releases one OS every year or so, I don't see an issue here. That is, unless carriers go out of their way to sell an old OS, but why on earth would they do that?

Getting back to the PC vs. Mac analogy. It seems to me that if there are a bunch of phones with Android, and there is only one iPhone, in the end it is the Android phone "ecosystem" that will win the day. Just like the PC did. I think we're in the beginning phase of that, like maybe 1985 or so. It only took a few more years, before Apple was relegated to a small role in the PC industry. That's what I see going forward.

I write this as one who has Macs in the house, both currently and historically (my first was the LC, which replaced an Apple II). I am a fan of the product of the company, and can boast a mini, Apple TV, Time Capsule and a few other devices besides the laptop and iMac.

However, I don't have an iPhone. I would like one, I used one provided to me by my former employer, but I refuse to do business with AT&T as the provider. Again, this is both from the recent experience and from an historical perspective, as a former customer of the former Cingular. Then as before, I dealt with abysmal customer "service" and shockingly spotty call coverage (yes, the call that drops while 5 bars show in the display). The 3G service in my hometown was fine, but on business travel in LA, NYC and Chicago I had frequent drop-downs to EDGE, or slow throughput when the 3G was lit. I know the Verizon ads smart (and are misleading), but it seems clear to me that AT&T has not been attending to its network and making it sufficiently robust to handle the increased demand from the windfall of customers the iPhone has brought it.

What I have had for years has been T-mobile, and have enjoyed good signal strength and availability (I don't hang out in rural areas) and superior customer service. In addition to providing 3G to 2/3 of the population of this country in an astonishingly fast ramp-up in 2009, the company is already rolling out HSPA 7.2 (which the iPhone GS can handle but which AT&T can't deliver) to Philadelphia and other cities, which will make T-mobile tbe fastest mobile broadband aside from WiMax (and far faster than Verizon and AT&T).

And, yes, I have an Android phone, the MyTouch 3G. Maybe not a powerhouse phone, but then I have zero interest in playing games and I don't need Exchange. I need a phone with apps for personal productivity and which is easy to operate, and the phone answers both needs. When the Nexus One comes out I intend to upgrade (pay cash) because I recognize the leaps Google made in the move to Android 2.1.

Will the Nexus "kill" the Droid? No, because they're supplied by different, incompatible carriers. Lovers of Verizon will still love their Droids.

Will the Nexus "kill" the iPhone? No, because the iPhone (at least until the Nexus comes out) remains the gold standard in mobile phones--great industrial design, thriving development ecosystem. As I said before, I'd use one if I could get 3G on T-mobile, but this isn't happening anytime soon.

I acknowledge that the iPhone has been the object of my desire, but I still enjoy the hell out of my MyTouch and look forward to the Nexus. See, that's how it works: It doesn't need to be some zero-sum game of "my phone rocks, yours sucks" tit-for-tat posts. With a couple hundred million potential cell subscribers in the US alone, there is plenty of room for both phones and a dozen more.

So, please, enough is enough. No more heckling and derision. Enjoy your phone and provider, but allow others that same right. Arguments such as the many contained within this thread lower the IQ of all who stop to read.

That's really funny point. While right now it is just 3GS which has the magnetometer, as it stands now, all Androids have it.