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Sales of Apple's iWork office suite surge 50% in 2009 - Page 3

post #81 of 108
12/30/09 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

What I don't get is why so many people use a spreadsheet application to make a simple table. If I saw this only occasionally, I'd write it off -- but it happens constantly.

I firmly believe that Office is shepard along by Excel with many people simply ignoring the rest of the suite. I can almost understand a simple table, but why write a two or three paragraph memo in Excel (with each paragraph in it's own cell). Mind you a memo that is all text. ;(

There seems to be multiple issues here but a big factor seems to be that Excel is very well done when comared to the rest of office.


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post #82 of 108
12/30/09 at 1:09pm
Has Apple ever documented it's formats for iWork? I really like Pages but being locked into on application makes me extremely wary. I would strongly prefer that other applications be able to read iWork formats without dependance on a Mac being present.
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post #83 of 108
12/30/09 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by obscurion View Post

Has Apple ever documented it's formats for iWork? I really like Pages but being locked into on application makes me extremely wary. I would strongly prefer that other applications be able to read iWork formats without dependance on a Mac being present.

A Mac with iWorks yet!

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post #84 of 108
12/30/09 at 1:39pm
i also didnt bother to install Office last time I formatted my MacBook Pro.

I need two more pieces:

a replacement for Adobe Illustrator. I have never understood how to use 90% of Illustrator. I need apple to make a great, user friendly mac-like replacement that is more powerful than OmniGraffle Professional but less complicated than Illustrator.

a Microsoft Project alternative.
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post #85 of 108
12/30/09 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by obscurion View Post

Has Apple ever documented it's formats for iWork? I really like Pages but being locked into on application makes me extremely wary. I would strongly prefer that other applications be able to read iWork formats without dependance on a Mac being present.

You can export any Pages document as PDF, DOC, RTF or TXT. I dont think anything can read a .PAGES file and decipher it. I assume iWork.com will give the export feature to any standards-based browser.
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #86 of 108
12/30/09 at 1:49pm
I upgrade iWorks every other year unless there's a killer feature I can't live without. I'll skip from iW 08 to iW 11 since the rumor is there will be no iW 10.
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post #87 of 108
12/30/09 at 1:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

What I don't get is why so many people use a spreadsheet application to make a simple table. If I saw this only occasionally, I'd write it off -- but it happens constantly.

I've been using Excel since version 3.0, and 1-2-3 before that. Anything that requires numbers or lists or a matrix of whatever goes into a spreadsheet, regardless of whether I need to do any math with the numbers, because it requires zero effort. I don't need to configure a group of cells or a table, the spreadsheet already has that built-in.

I could do most of this in a table in a word processor document, but I'd have to futz with it the next time I needed to add a column or do any sort of calculation or concatenation anyway, so why not do it in a spreadsheet to begin with. Esp. since I can just copy/paste the final table into whatever final document I happen to need to put it in.

I think it's just what tools people are comfortable using.

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post #88 of 108
12/30/09 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilogic View Post

The age difference between the suites is incomparable and so also it is in terms of features, I love MS Office 2007/8 - and it will be many moons before iWork comes close... here's to hoping.

I hope iWork will never turn into another Office, i.e. bloatware with bazillion of features that 99% of users have no idea how to utilize them. For me iWorks is streamlined suite that helps me generate good looking documents that behaves the way I expect and I feel that I am in control. With Office, I always wrestled to get the document the way I wanted, with some "intelligent" assistant standing in my way. I am just happy with iWork and hope it will stay its way.
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post #89 of 108
12/30/09 at 2:16pm
Any idea if Apple will ever make Numbers a viable Engineering/Finance spreadsheet? I would love to have true multi-dimensional spreadsheets and graphing capability without purchasing a $3,000 application with no portability and limits in other areas.

Maybe a NumbersPro version?

Also on Keynote, when will they develop multi-screen capability similar to MultiPresenter? Dual-projector presentations offer so many more interesting interatction options. Maybe they could even build in video-conferencing capability?
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post #90 of 108
12/30/09 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by niji View Post

a Microsoft Project alternative.

Well, it is easy to do 90% of the functionality of Project with a relatively simple spreadsheet. Not sure if Numbers can pull it off effectively, but we do them all the time in Excel.
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post #91 of 108
12/30/09 at 2:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytdave View Post

Why use iWork? ...
Graphics. Create a chart in Numbers and then an identical one in Excel. There is no comparison. Numbers charts are smooth, professional, and photorealistic. Excel charts look like stick figures. Excel charts are fine for throwing around typical office crap to colleagues, but when it comes time to put together a professional presentation, I turn to Numbers to generate all my charts, and then I can place them in whatever presentations or printed documentation that I need to distribute to clients.

For formal documents, I usually end up taking an Excel chart and bringing it into Illustrator to make it "pretty" (what do I know; I'm an engineer) and to combine information into dashboard-style graphics.

Can you get similar results in Numbers? For simplicity, we could call this the ability to create a multiple-chart diagram seamlessly mixing text and graphics.
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post #92 of 108
12/30/09 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by niji View Post

a Microsoft Project alternative.

OmniPlan?
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post #93 of 108
12/30/09 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_CA View Post

Not gonna happen.
One thing it integrate it with the OS but to make parto fthe OS?
See MS and Internet Explorer.

Microsoft didn't get in trouble just for bundling its OS with apps; it got in trouble because it had acted to unfairly restrained trade for years in the PC OS market, and had subsequently consented to follow a court order to stop doing certain things that would further increase its monopoly power given that it had killed off all competition in the PC OS market (i.e., the market for bundled operating software for all PCs sold by every PC maker in the world).

Microsoft then violated its consent decree (disobeyed the court) to bundle IE with Windows, in flagrant disregard for the rule of law. Bill Gates and the executives mocked the court by saying absolutely ridiculous things and spewing lies such as the idea that Microsoft couldn't produce an OS without an integrated browser, so that bundling IE wasn't really bundling at all.

Microsoft was found guilty of lying in disobeying the court and in working actively to restrain trade (prevent competition, not competing better/smarter/cheaper/faster in the market).

This is why Google, Palm, RIM, and Apple can bundle browsers with their OSs with no problem. It's not bundling that's the issue, it's monopolizing markets and then agreeing to court restrictions and then violating those restrictions and lying about it.

There is no reason Apple can't bundle iWork. It just wants to make some software revenue from the tittle. Charging shareware-type fees for the three very good apps is fine. It also lets the company push out versions independently from the OS, to prevent one from holding up the other.

In 2010, expect to see new iLife, iWork and hopefully other Pro Apps with support for 64-bit and parallelized code and slick animation effects. iWork is really nice to use, but needs refinement and enhancements. Being free would increase its market installed base, but being paid makes it worth Apple's while to update and improve it. Being low cost achieves both goals.
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post #94 of 108
12/30/09 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post

What I don't get is why so many people use a spreadsheet application to make a simple table. If I saw this only occasionally, I'd write it off -- but it happens constantly.

In my experience it's just easier to work with in a spreadsheet for a few reasons:

1) If you need to make it more complex you're already in the right application
2) It's bit easier in iWork and Office to manipulate cells/columns in the spreadsheet app
3) Sorting
4) Easier to select an entire row/column
5) Not based off letter sized pages. You could change the sizes in Pages/Word of course but it's an extra set of steps.
6) There's no real advantage to making it a Pages/Word document most of the time and no real downside to using Numbers/Excel
7) You can add multiple sheets if you're working with a bunch of simple tables, easier than adding more pages in Word/Excel.

Probably some other reasons too -- those are just the ones I encounter often.
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post #95 of 108
12/30/09 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Well, Numbers is a few versions behind the other two also though.

I think it makes more sense to compare the apps between Office and iWork rather than to give an arbitrary number to iWork "completeness."

I would put it as:

Keynote vs. PowerPoint
= clear win for Keynote. Better in almost every way w/no missing functions.

Pages vs. Word
= a push. Pages is clearly the better designed app, Word has a few more tricks though

Numbers vs. Excel
= Excel wins for much more functionality than Numbers, but Numbers is a better design.

In all likelihood, Numbers will gain more functions with each release so look for the next version of the iWork suite to be the one the pundits refer to as "real competition for Office" (even though people have already been switching for years).

Good post.
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post #96 of 108
12/30/09 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B View Post

I've been using Excel since version 3.0, and 1-2-3 before that. Anything that requires numbers or lists or a matrix of whatever goes into a spreadsheet, regardless of whether I need to do any math with the numbers, because it requires zero effort. I don't need to configure a group of cells or a table, the spreadsheet already has that built-in.

I could do most of this in a table in a word processor document, but I'd have to futz with it the next time I needed to add a column or do any sort of calculation or concatenation anyway, so why not do it in a spreadsheet to begin with. Esp. since I can just copy/paste the final table into whatever final document I happen to need to put it in.

I think it's just what tools people are comfortable using.

Maybe, but also maybe working with tables in Word is a pain.
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post #97 of 108
12/30/09 at 4:53pm
MS Office (both Windows and Mac platforms) became a bloated pig over the years as features grew and grew... I worry that iWork will also follow this path...

With that being said, my wife (who is a teacher) refuses to look at Pages until they add some sort of built-in clip art library browser that connects to a online repository.
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post #98 of 108
12/30/09 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiles77 View Post

Larger user base = larger numbers sold.
Simple statistics.
That said, I still like iWork much better than Microsoft's Office.

you can't really put it all on larger user base cause there is Office for Mac and they do pretty decent sales as well

better integration with the Mac software, similar interface elements as ilife (reducing the learning curve) and a way lower price are also key elements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aizmov View Post

That wont fly in either US or Europe.
I know Apple is no Microsoft, but why should Apple even risk getting sued?

so long as Apple doesn't prevent you from installing and using other software, the inclusion of iwork is not likely to get them sued anymore than Mail, Address Book, iChat etc has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zep View Post

if that was allowed, MS would cry foul and would be founded in doing so. they got crushed for IE, so would be different if apple did it for iWork?

1. the bundling folks are talking about is preinstallation just like ilife has. it wouldn't eat much into the profit margin since they are selling iwork for $49 with a computer so there is a logic to the idea.

2. Microsoft got dinged cause they tried to make the installation of IE and only IE a condition of licensing Windows. AND they refused to give up critical details to other browser companies like Netscape as well as sue them for reverse engineering.
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post #99 of 108
12/30/09 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

In my experience, Keynote is 5/5, Pages 3.5/5, and Numbers a 1/5.

At the moment, although Numbers has better charting capabilities, Excel is far superior in its overall functionality and add-ins.

I fully agree. I do accounting and both pages and numbers have kept me from dumping office and exclusively utilizing iWork. They are both severly lacking in the ability to fine tune your data or formatting, as well as not very user friendly.

I can't dump office until they stop with the wow factor and actually study the usability of iWork.
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post #100 of 108
12/30/09 at 6:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliphord View Post

I've grown up using Office, of course, so I've just never seen the need to switch to iWork, even as I've become a Mac user exclusively. Why switch when I already know Word/Excel inside-out, forwards and backwards?

The current version of Word is really great, in fact. The addition of source management over the last couple versions has been a godsend.

Agreed. I gave iWork a try, and it was not as good as Office 08, sorry apple. Office is much more powerful, both in text editing and especially in Excel. Keynote is a power point killer, but not enough to get me to switch.

Office 2011 (I hope unless there is delays to make it 2012) will be even better with some features making a comeback (VB) and some new ones to make it lighter and more powerful. As always Mac BU can fuck up, but 08 was a huge improvement over 04, even with the loss of some features, but could still be better.
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post #101 of 108
12/30/09 at 6:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

I sent my 12 year old daughter to a couple of Apple Store classes last summer... iMovie and Keynote.
When school started, she jumped into Pages with no other experience and has been flooring her teachers with her projects and reports. The interface to Pages is so consistent with the other products that she had zero learning curve.
I've associated all of our .xls and .doc extensions with Pages and Numbers and haven't looked back.
I use Excel at work and have found nothing I can't do in Numbers, and Word has gotten so bloated that its unusable, so Pages works perfectly for us.

I totally understand the deep divers who need the sophisticated features of Excel, but this is a classic case of the 80/20 rule... more like 95/5 in this case. Most people use only a sliver of Excel's features and would benefit far more from Numbers' usability.

I'm impressed with this as something as marginal as line spacing I have found impossible to fine tune in pages. That is where I say it's interface may be pretty well designed, but as far as I'm concerned this is a simple function where the ball was dropped.
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post #102 of 108
12/30/09 at 6:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB View Post

I'll save you the disappointment... it isn't. It isn't meant to be.
Its for people, not accountants/engineers. (no offense to accountants or engineers meant.)

No offense taken to accountants, but if apple is expecting to unseat Office, which is obviously the goal, then this is something they should address.

We can't make excuses for a program named for something it's supposed to handle effectively and efficiently, and then say "well, it makes great charts..." that's all well and good, but if you can't get it to process the data that feeds the charts, then what is the point of making nothing out of nothing?

At the time I was using pages I just wanted it to have something as simple as the double line office is able to generate anywhere in a cell border. In accounting, this line placed on the bottom is called "the bottom line".

A spreadsheet program should be able to do that. I believe even OpenOffice (I didn't use it enough to know for sure) is able to do that function, so why not Numbers?
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post #103 of 108
12/30/09 at 9:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by niji View Post

a replacement for Adobe Illustrator. I have never understood how to use 90% of Illustrator. I need apple to make a great, user friendly mac-like replacement that is more powerful than OmniGraffle Professional but less complicated than Illustrator.

Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by niji View Post

a Microsoft Project alternative.

No. This space is full of apps.

Openproj is free, with OmniPlan and Merlin battling for the paid market.
OmniPlan GUI looks like it was created by Mattel, so it's losing. Merlin, designed by people who don't even speak English, looks very professional.

Basecamp is leading the web app side of things, though I haven't been able to get into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post

Well, it is easy to do 90% of the functionality of Project with a relatively simple spreadsheet. Not sure if Numbers can pull it off effectively, but we do them all the time in Excel.

I've never seen a really cool project template in Numbers, but I'd like very much to see what's possible.
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post #104 of 108
12/31/09 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

2. Microsoft got dinged cause they tried to make the installation of IE and only IE a condition of licensing Windows. AND they refused to give up critical details to other browser companies like Netscape as well as sue them for reverse engineering.

Not really. The problem under the law was that Microsoft used their market power to disadvantage Netscape as a competitor, by a variety of means. The means are far less important than the exercise of market power to restrain competition. If Apple is not found have market power in a relevant market (and they never have been), they cannot be found to have restrained competition, no matter how much they bundle or how they treat their competitors.
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post #105 of 108
12/31/09 at 9:39pm
Apple should have bought FreeHand before Adobe killed it. FreeHand was ALWAYS easier to use than Illustrator, and had better pagination functionality as well. The death of FreeHand is really a major part of why I quit graphic design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I've noticed many posts here indicating an interest in drawing programs. There are many good solutions on the net for raster and simple vector graphics. I dint want to highjack this thread to list out those.

What I do want to mention is the addition of a "CAD" like program to iWorks. I put XAD in quotes because I think Apple could put a modern twist on the concept to make the app far more useful than the standard CAD program. The sad reality is there are lots of drawing programs out there and as such Apple really doesn't need to offer anything at the simple end. However when it comes to opening AutoCad .dxf files or creating them or PDFs there are far fewer options and even fewer low cost ones. That when today 2 & 3D wire frame CAD is old hat tech. Mind you I'm not talking about competeing with the $1000+++ CAD programs in features or capabilities. Rather I want to be able to open and edit the mechanical drawings often found on the net for various engineering components. Most of the times theses are simple 2D dimensioned drawings. The ability to create such drawings is also required.

What we really are talking about is a product that competes with AutoCad Light and Adobe Illustrator but frankly does not need the complexity of either. The idea would be to deliver maybe 80% of the features at a far more reasonable price.

The flip side of this is that as iWorks natures there is less development, that is useful, that can take place on the core line up. A good professional quality drawing program can go a long way improving the line up.

IMPORTANT NOTE: the support of AutoCads dxf format is extremely important due to the lack of low cost support on the Mac for those data files. However I'm nit talking about a program that is focused in CAD in the traditional sense. It needs the ability to handle CAD quality drawings but also needs the rapid expressiveness of a "drawing" program. If this sounds like wanting the best of both worlds then you understand what I'm asking for.



Dave
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post #106 of 108
1/2/10 at 10:02am
Is AppleInsider preparing the launch of iWork'10

What do you know about it
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post #107 of 108
1/2/10 at 8:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by niji View Post

a replacement for Adobe Illustrator. I have never understood how to use 90% of Illustrator. I need apple to make a great, user friendly mac-like replacement that is more powerful than OmniGraffle Professional but less complicated than Illustrator.

To further comment on this, word from the patent office is that Apple is working on an app for illustration. Take a look at the drawing in this article.

I don't know who Apple is trying to fool with the Apple TV linkage, but it's obvious the purported screenshot illustration is for a design with a computer interface.

Obviously, a tablet would have a different interface for an illustrator-type app. If Apple's designing a MacPaint successor for iWork on the desktop, you can bet it will also come with a version for use on the tablet.
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #108 of 108
1/5/10 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiles77 View Post

Larger user base = larger numbers sold.
Simple statistics.
That said, I still like iWork much better than Microsoft's Office.

Thuis is my first Mac and its an Imac, an I love it, and love iWork!!!!!!!
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