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Apple TV 3.0 update not helping sales as AirPort routers lose share

post #1 of 212
Thread Starter 
Though it was given a software upgrade to version 3.0 in October, Apple TV sales have remained relatively flat over the past 12 months. Similarly, sales of AirPort base stations have struggled to gain momentum due to higher-than-average price points, resulting in minor share declines.

Apple TV

Sales of Apple's wireless streaming set-top-box are up less than 10 percent in 2009 on a unit-by-unit basis, Steven Baker, vice president of industry analysis at NPD Group, told AppleInsider. But without a definitive product to compare it against, its total market share presence is unknown.

"We have a category where we put a lot of these networked content products," Baker said. "It's a bit of a stretch to say somebody is buying one product instead of another in that category."

Released in October, Apple TV 3.0 gave users a redesigned software interface and allowed users to watch iTunes Extras and iTunes LPs in full-screen in their living room. It also granted access to Genius Mixes and Internet radio.

The free-of-charge software patch was made available for all Apple TV users, but was not accompanied by a hardware refresh. In September, Apple discounted the 160GB model to $229, and discontinued the 40GB Apple TV product.

Baker said he believes the minor gains by Apple TV over the prior year are likely because sales at the end of 2008 were slow in general. In fact, most of Apple's lesser-discussed hardware products have shown unremarkable performance through 2009, with the exception of the new multi-touch Magic Mouse.

"Most of them, in terms of their overall performance, have pretty much plateaued," Baker said. "We don't see huge kind of growth numbers there."

Since its inception three years ago, Apple TV has been seen by many industry experts as a possible game-changer with broad potential. Some have even gone as far as to predict it could turn into a multi-billion dollar business should Apple equip it with a TV tuner and DVR capabilities. However, poor economic conditions intertwined with content licensing complications have seen the Cupertino-based electronics maker maintain the product largely as a side interest.

When asked last year about the "digital living room opportunity and how it relates to Apple TV," Apple Chief Executive Steve Jobs said, "well again I think the whole category is still a hobby right now. I don't think anybody has succeeded at it. And actually the experimentation has slowed down. A lot of the early companies that were trying things have faded away."

"So I have to say that given the economic conditions, given the venture capital outlook and stuff, I continue to believe that it will be a hobby in 2009," he added.

Still, Apple as early as January said it would continue to pump money and resources in its set-top box business because it expects the product segment to break free of some existing barriers down the road.

"It is clear the movie rental business is working and there are more customers who want to try it," Apple Chief Operating Officer Tim Cook told investors during a conference call. "We will continue to invest there, because we believe there is something there for us in the future."

AirPort Base Stations

Meanwhile, it's a similar story for Airport and Airport Express, both of which have been unchanged in sales or market stature, Baker said. The Airport is fifth in the market, behind Linksys, Belkin, D-Link and Netgear.

"I think the Airport is probably a little expensive compared to some of the other wireless access points that are out there," he said. "It lost a little bit of share on the overall basis over the last year or so. We've also seen the Airport Express kind of start to slow down in terms of volume."

In addition, while the Time Machine consumer network attached storage device is a market leader, it exists in a very small niche.

"Consumer NAS is a minuscule marketplace compared to external hard drives for consumers," Baker said. "So it's the big fish in a very small pond."
post #2 of 212
Maybe we will get an update at the end of January? I believe that Apple TV will live for quite a while yet. Perhaps there will be a lowering of price on Airport products, which will likely help also.
post #3 of 212
Apple TV needs new content streams to increase sales.

A deal with Hulu or some of the networks to add commercial based streaming through their existing channels would make it a more attractive product.

Some form of "À la carte" subscription service could help a lot as well if they could get enough content providers on board. I think that there is a large number of the population that would happily cancel their cable if they could get the 5-10 channels that they really watch over the internet for half the price (even if they still had the advertisements), especially if it were an "on demand" type service.
post #4 of 212
Airport Extreme
= IMHO a product for true fanboys
= Missing Features (e.g. QoS)
= Missing Web-Interface (hello Linux)
= No Firmware-Support for OpenFirmwares like DD-WRT or Tomato
= but it looks nice -> very important for true fanboys

Extremely Disappointing: Apple Airport Extreme New Simultaneous Dual-Band Router Briefly Reviewed
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wirel...iefly-reviewed
post #5 of 212
I just hope whatever updates they bring for the appletv will be able to work on the current gen hardware. I think they have sold alot of them and leaving them out would be crappy as all hell.
post #6 of 212
Well....it doesnt't really matter because apple is making more money than ever....
post #7 of 212
Not surprised. The Airport is well built and stylish, but prohibitively expensive. Knock $50 off of it and the 1TB time capsule as well as $100 off the 2TB capsule and they would sell very well.

As for AppleTV. Unless the movie studios permit Apple to give it the ability to import your DVDs, its not going to catch on, especially at $230. In a lineup of integrated multi-use devices, its a one trick pony that requires a separate DVD or Blu-ray player for your current movies, a PVR for recording your shows or games, and video game console if you want to do that. Combine one, two, or all of these features, or integrate it into TVs and it would sell much better.
post #8 of 212
The AppleTV isn't going anywhere except niche sales to Mac owners who don't know about Netflix and all the devices (X-Box, PS3, Roku etc) that allow streaming of content directly to their HDTV or computer (uses Microsoft's DRM installed in browsers)

Netflix is neutral, so it has much more content and is the best value around. It's sweet that it remembers where I left off in a movie or TV series, even a few days later. It remembers what I've watched etc.

On the other hand, Steve Jobs is the largest shareholder of Disney, which owns ABC so there is a conflict/competition issue from other content generators. They don't want Apple to get a monopoly like they did with the music industry. Also rentals from iTunes is just too expensive in comparison.


I routinely use my PS3 and a Netflix disk to stream shows and movies to my HDTV anytime I want to watch for only $13 or so a month unlimited.

Not all the content is stream-able though, some require a real DVD, so those get sent in the snailmail.



As far as Airport: What I feel occurs is new folks get a Mac and realize they need a internet connection at home. So they call the phone or cable company and they come and install a dual device (modem and wifi in one) or a PC geek friend sets one up for them with a device from online or local store.

To properly set up and harden a router does require some knowledge which may be outside of the typical Apple Store customers learning curve.

To change the default password to a highly complex one, to create encryption WPA2 with AES (WEP and WPA are cracked), to lock out other computers via MAC address, turn off ping and remote access an create just a guest internet access only.

I also find AirPorts necessity to rely upon the time from a computer especially annoying. If the time is wrong, your Airport doesn't work.

Since I ditched my Airport I have been much happier.


Time Machine:

A lifesaver for those newbies who don't know anything about backing up. However since Time Machine isn't bootable, it's a pale solution to simply cloning your entire boot drive using Carbon Copy Cloner or other which is much superior as it also provides hardware protection as you can 'hold option' and boot from it.
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The danger is that we sleepwalk into a world where cabals of corporations control not only the mainstream devices and the software on them, but also the entire ecosystem of online services around...
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post #9 of 212
Good article with on-the-ball quotes.

AppleTV is the ticking time bomb. At some point it gonna do it's thing. Maybe soon now. It's just taken a lot of time for Apple to corral all the ducks in a row. I hope that time is approaching. (I think it is)
As for Apple's router products... well, all I can say is that they are absolutely phenomenal products; and that they are just too expensive given the other options available in the market.
That is all.
post #10 of 212
Apple TV is nice, but lacks enough content to be truly compelling.

I'd like to see a deeper movie database, some streaming, and content from many more sources than just the big studios. For example, from the BBC, at least as a rental model.

I'd also like to see the rentals give you 48 or 72, rather than 24, hours. 24 is just too short.
post #11 of 212
iTunes became ubiquitous not only because it has a great interface, but because it plays standard MP3 files. Sony's software required everything to be ATRAC3. Anyone use that? No.

Today, the Apple TV wants your content to be Apple-Approved content.
If they want sales of Apple TV to skyrocket, they need to make it play anything.
It should play Xvid & DivX right out of the box.
It should have every codec known to man.
OR it should allow you to purchase & install codecs as apps.
Video doesn't play? Press ok to purchase the correct codec & auto-install it for $0.99

If it could play anything, from anywhere (NAS, external HDD, etc), including 1080p content, sales would BOOM.
post #12 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by apfel View Post

Airport Extreme
= IMHO a product for true fanboys
= Missing Features (e.g. QoS)
= Missing Web-Interface (hello Linux)
= No Firmware-Support for OpenFirmwares like DD-WRT or Tomato
= but it looks nice -> very important for true fanboys

Extremely Disappointing: Apple Airport Extreme New Simultaneous Dual-Band Router Briefly Reviewed
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wirel...iefly-reviewed

Good Link.
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Apple!

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post #13 of 212
Appel TV is useful in countries where you can rent or buy movies and tv shows but in countries like Spain where you can't it's almost useless.
post #14 of 212
With its current level of functionality the Apple TV just needs to be cheaper. The complexity of the current hardware platform prevents that from happening. Apple should move the ATV to an ARM SoC design and ditch local magnetic based storage. 16GB of flash memory would be enough to buffer streamed content and pre-cache downloads (purchased items) before syncing them with iTunes. This should make a $99 entry level price realistic. Combined with a new wave of advertising I think it would be a popular mainstream device. Another key would be creating an Apple TV App Store. Apple can't provide all the content themselves so they should focus on building a platform and partnering with other companies to delivery content to the TV.
post #15 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

The AppleTV isn't going anywhere except niche sales to Mac owners who don't know about Netflix and all the devices (X-Box, PS3, Roku etc) that allow streaming of content directly to their HDTV or computer (uses Microsoft's DRM installed in browsers)

Netflix is neutral, so it has much more content and is the best value around.

On the other hand, Steve Jobs is the largest shareholder of Disney, which owns ABC so there is a conflict/competition issue from other content generators. They don't want Apple to get a monopoly like they did with the music industry. Also rentals from iTunes is just too expensive in comparison.


I routinely use my PS3 and a Netflix disk to stream shows and movies to my HDTV anytime I want to watch for only $13 or so a month unlimited.

Not all the content is stream-able though, some require a real DVD, so those get sent in the snailmail.

I wish Netflix was available in Canada. Although I am expecting Apple to break out of their movie slump fairly soon. Apple TV is old and in need of an update, the App store is a proven concept (it would do wonders for Apple TV), the latest iPhone and iPod touch could play 720p video if Apple allowed it, the iPod AV dock is outdated (old remote)and due for an HD replacement, and significant changes to iTunes Store are anticipated. I even expect blu ray soon It looks like they might have to deal with this tablet business first though.

If Apple starts taking video seriously, the studios will have to buy in at some point. Greed will dictate that.
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post #16 of 212
Having never owned an Airport router of any kind, I have to ask those with experience: Are there really any functional advantages to Apple's routers (like ease of setup) that justify the much higher prices?
post #17 of 212
To be a truly wonderful product, they need to offer several things:
1. A subscription service like Netflix and competitively price it.
2. Add the iphone OS for apps and web browsing and emailing
3. Of course add support for the blue-tooth mouse and keyboard.
4. Get full HD support (1080p)
5. MOST IMPORTANTLY...apple needs to allow downloads of my own DVD's and Blu-ray content. Or at least allow me to download a movie i already own for $0.99 or something. It's just BS that i can't put my own DVD's or Blu-rays in my iTunes!!!

Then you would really have something anyone with an internet connection would love to own. I don't think this is too unreasonable to do with the current hardware?
post #18 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by lo_fye View Post

iTunes became ubiquitous not only because it has a great interface, but because it plays standard MP3 files. Sony's software required everything to be ATRAC3. Anyone use that? No.

Today, the Apple TV wants your content to be Apple-Approved content.
If they want sales of Apple TV to skyrocket, they need to make it play anything.
It should play Xvid & DivX right out of the box.
It should have every codec known to man.
OR it should allow you to purchase & install codecs as apps.
Video doesn't play? Press ok to purchase the correct codec & auto-install it for $0.99

If it could play anything, from anywhere (NAS, external HDD, etc), including 1080p content, sales would BOOM.


isn't that called the PS3 or one of the brand X streaming products out there? i think Linksys makes one as well
post #19 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by apfel View Post

Airport Extreme
= IMHO a product for true fanboys
= Missing Features (e.g. QoS)
= Missing Web-Interface (hello Linux)
= No Firmware-Support for OpenFirmwares like DD-WRT or Tomato
= but it looks nice -> very important for true fanboys

Extremely Disappointing: Apple Airport Extreme New Simultaneous Dual-Band Router Briefly Reviewed
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wirel...iefly-reviewed

I am a true fangirl. It works well for me. Don't know about the firmware - and don't care. Don't know about QoS. Yes it looks much nicer in my home than the competitors.

It was also very easy to setup. 10 minutes. I have an older AEBS and a first gen Airport Express.
Just created a 2 network system where I have Macbook and ATV on the 802.11n (5ghz) and Tivo/iPod Touch on the 802.11g network.

This was also incredibly easy to setup after I went to the Apple Discussions and got a bit of help from other users. Don't know of a vendor who has more effective forums available for users like me. It took me 10 minutes to find the AirPort Express and an ethernet cable. And 5-10 minutes to do the new configuration.

I am a fan of apple because most of my stuff does "just work".
post #20 of 212
AppleTV needs to completely change it's philosophy. Rather than just buying and playing what's on iTunes, it needs to play all videos that I have on my computer. I would love to see something like:
Insert any DVD and AppleTV automatically imports it into its Hard Drive. Rather than having content take space on your computer and Apple TV why not just have it in once place and allow streaming when on WIFI.
There needs to be a better integration into web and social networking. It has YouTube but it's so phony. Give us real YouTube where you can see your account, rate, leave comments etc. And youtube is not the only web channel AppleTV needs. Vimeo needed as well.
And last thing, it has to be opened to Developers. Bring Apps!!!
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post #21 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkyp56 View Post

I just hope whatever updates they bring for the appletv will be able to work on the current gen hardware. I think they have sold alot of them and leaving them out would be crappy as all hell.

I would be happy with more powerful hardware. 1080p would be good for some people who have their own video. I would also like more diskspace so I don't have to stream from iMac - external would be great.

WHile I know a lot of people want more... my current Apple TV works well for what it was intended.
post #22 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by apfel View Post

Airport Extreme
= IMHO a product for true fanboys
= Missing Features (e.g. QoS)
= Missing Web-Interface (hello Linux)
= No Firmware-Support for OpenFirmwares like DD-WRT or Tomato
= but it looks nice -> very important for true fanboys

Extremely Disappointing: Apple Airport Extreme New Simultaneous Dual-Band Router Briefly Reviewed
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wirel...iefly-reviewed

No ADSL modem either.

Most of the devices on sale from Linksys by Cisco, Netgear, Belkin etc. have built in ADSL modems.
post #23 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

As for AppleTV. Unless the movie studios permit Apple to give it the ability to import your DVDs, its not going to catch on.

So what's stopping anyone form importing their DVD's? I have 2 TB's of movies almost all of which is from my DVD collection. Get a copy of hanbrake and be done with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

The AppleTV isn't going anywhere except niche sales to Mac owners who don't know about Netflix and all the devices (X-Box, PS3, Roku etc) that allow streaming of content directly to their HDTV or computer (uses Microsoft's DRM installed in browsers)

Apple Tv users know all about netflix and their tardy delivery schedule and mediocre service. I get lost the next morning after it airs. Netflix will never be able to do that. I can pre-order movies on the ITS, netflix can't. I can download my movies to my IPT and take them with me when I travel. Also, the quality of TV on the ITS is currently unrivaled. HULU, netflix, even digital cable doesn't compare. BD is the only thing better and I don't care enough about the difference to want to start another library on a dusty shelf with movies that never get played. Hell, Apple is even rumored to be negotiating pre-DVD sales of their movies. How could netflix make that happen?

I love how everyone focuses on the word "hobby"... when was the last time you spent millions on a hobby? How much is the new data center going to cost Apple? What do you think it's for? Their current server farm in cupertino is stressed thanks to the ITS and ATV streaming. They haven't said anything about it officially, but they're investing heavily in the media consumption. No service is perfect at the moment but the advantages Apple has that other's don't are, lead time/ experience with a successful business model, connections and clout (to make deals happen) and their overall product ecosystem. When the tablet makes it's debut I firmly believe the market will change drastically. I would think casual gaming and strong integration between the tablet and appliances like the ATV, will reshape what these devices are used for.
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post #24 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by SinisterJoe View Post

With its current level of functionality the Apple TV just needs to be cheaper. The complexity of the current hardware platform prevents that from happening. Apple should move the ATV to an ARM SoC design and ditch local magnetic based storage. 16GB of flash memory would be enough to buffer streamed content and pre-cache downloads (purchased items) before syncing them with iTunes. This should make a $99 entry level price realistic. Combined with a new wave of advertising I think it would be a popular mainstream device. Another key would be creating an Apple TV App Store. Apple can't provide all the content themselves so they should focus on building a platform and partnering with other companies to delivery content to the TV.

Not everyone wants to stream. 16gb is way way way too small.
post #25 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post

As for AppleTV. Unless the movie studios permit Apple to give it the ability to import your DVDs, its not going to catch on, especially at $230. In a lineup of integrated multi-use devices, its a one trick pony that requires a separate DVD or Blu-ray player for your current movies, a PVR for recording your shows or games, and video game console if you want to do that. Combine one, two, or all of these features, or integrate it into TVs and it would sell much better.

I agree about needing to be able to play DVDs you already own, but there is a very simple solution that does not involve getting the permission of the studios...add a $10 DVD drive! I think that would in no way compete with iTunes sales/rentals. Apple could limit the competition from blu-ray by letting you play your DVDs and then once they get their hardware in your living room, encouraging you to get your HD content online from iTunes. No, it wouldn't be blu-ray quality, but the vast majority of people really wouldn't care.

Heck, I'd be happy if they even just gave it the ability to access the Movie folder on a remote Mac and play all the formats FrontRow can, including video_TS. Having to transcode everything and put it in iTunes is a stupid limitation.
post #26 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Having never owned an Airport router of any kind, I have to ask those with experience: Are there really any functional advantages to Apple's routers (like ease of setup) that justify the much higher prices?

It's the easiest setup experience I've had for a router. Had a Linksys and DLInk in the past. Both were a bear to setup. Published comparison reviews confirm this.
post #27 of 212
Bought a refurbished Apple Tv and a Refurbished Time Capsule this December, and this is what i can share with you:

Though i live in Portugal where you cant buy or rent movies (wish i could), i like to have in my living room to show to friends and family, a copy of all my photos, home videos and to watch some youtube or listen to some podcasts. Bla Bla Bla you can buy other cheaper produtcs to do that, but you dont have the simplicity to sync it all automatically and control the apple tv with you ipod, with a real keyboard and swipe gestures.. Its just a perfect experience, it makes your friends say Uau (even though this is just a hobbie for apple)

The refurbished apple tv, costed less then 150!! How can you dare to say that this isnt cheap? If you want to have quality products you have to pay for it.

Cant wait for the time, where i'll play games in my apple tv, with my iphone/ipod as a remote... C'mon Steve!!

Since i switched, i have convinced more the 50 people this year... And its so easy, because it just works!
Long long long, In Jobs I trust
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post #28 of 212
Apple should do a few things with its Apple TV.

First off an iPod Touch should be bundled with every Apple TV. After using my iPhone as the remote for my Apple TV I can't go back to the plastic remote. It works so good and feels so natural

Second, If Apple could some way figure out how to get iPhone/iPod Touch Apps to run on Apple TV it would be amazing. Apps are essentially all mini websites. Simple games could be run on it to compete with Wiiware games.

Third, Monthly subscription for unlimited TV Shows

I don't what else I'd want from my Apple TV at this point. I'm already satisfied with it but these additions would be awesome.
post #29 of 212
Another strike against Apple TV is that it primarily only works with HDTVs. That really limits your market. It may take 5 to 10 years for that market share to become more accepted.
post #30 of 212
AppleTV:
This needs a complete HW overhaul. I still maintain that unusual demo Jobs brought on stage 6 months before launch was more for showing content providers there was a secure method for selling their video through iTunes and to gauge the consumer’s opinion.

It has plenty of pluses but also plenty of minuses and came into being well before that market was fully formed. Since then consoles and DVRs have added more home networking and multimedia options. They need to get rid of that specialized 1GHz pentium and update to something like Ion with 1080p and but the bullet with Netflix, and hopefully allow for an easier way to aadd codecs and other video types, even if not officially supported.

The one thing they can’t do is let that market go. Like MS with the Zune and XBox they have to force their way into the market even if it means little to no profit.


AEBS:
I understand why people say it’s pricey but if you want a dual-basnd router with a built in print server and network external HDDs it’s definitely competitive. I would like to see Apple start offering a higher class of router that can handle excessive throughout. With DOCSIS3.0 routers pushing 50-100Mbps from your ISP, 1000BASE-T wired homes and/or 802.11n homes with increasing higher data usage I don’t think any consumer router can handle these data loads efficiently at all times.
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post #31 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVlad View Post

AppleTV needs to completely change it's philosophy. Rather than just buying and playing what's on iTunes, it needs to play all videos that I have on my computer. I would love to see something like:
Insert any DVD and AppleTV automatically imports it into its Hard Drive. Rather than having content take space on your computer and Apple TV why not just have it in once place and allow streaming when on WIFI.
There needs to be a better integration into web and social networking. It has YouTube but it's so phony. Give us real YouTube where you can see your account, rate, leave comments etc. And youtube is not the only web channel AppleTV needs. Vimeo needed as well.
And last thing, it has to be opened to Developers. Bring Apps!!!

You can store your movies on a 160GB drive? The point of the drive is to act as a cache so ATV doesn't have to be connected to a server all of the time. You'll still need a giant HD, especially if you want 1080P movie; compressed they are more than 3GB/ movie.

You can rate youtube videos... though it is convoluted I can see how you would miss it. Other web features would be great but with the web all "flashed" out, I don't think we'll be getting our wishes any time soon. Netflix streaming would be a great addition but it's far more likely that Apple will release their own streaming option.

Regarding Aps.... I couldn't agree more. I think we're waiting for the tablet though. It could be a better device for interaction with the ATV, (or apple wants to make it another feature perceptively unique to the tablet) but an IPT or an Iphone would work quite well as a controller for games. I would also love to see the fraking weather and more news options as well.
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post #32 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Having never owned an Airport router of any kind, I have to ask those with experience: Are there really any functional advantages to Apple's routers (like ease of setup) that justify the much higher prices?

The Airport setup Utility really is a pleasure to use. especially if you are managing a network with multiple units (like an Extreme, a Time Machine, and a couple of Expresses)
Is it enough to justify the higher price? Not for me.
Though as an aside; nothing can perform the same function of AirTunes as well as the Airport Express does, IMO. So there's that aspect.
post #33 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtbard View Post

Another strike against Apple TV is that it primarily only works with HDTVs. That really limits your market. It may take 5 to 10 years for that market share to become more accepted.

I am sure the HDTV market gets more accepted every day, but what is the current marketshare compared to SDTV or EDTV? Id say its high enough to not worry about it. You also have to consider that Apple isnt selling the device to everyone who has a TV but to everyone who buys Apples premium products, which would more likely fall to people that started buying HDTV many years ago.
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post #34 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

The AppleTV isn't going anywhere except niche sales to Mac owners who don't know about Netflix and all the devices (X-Box, PS3, Roku etc) that allow streaming of content directly to their HDTV or computer (uses Microsoft's DRM installed in browsers)

Netflix is neutral, so it has much more content and is the best value around. It's sweet that it remembers where I left off in a movie or TV series, even a few days later. It remembers what I've watched etc.

On the other hand, Steve Jobs is the largest shareholder of Disney, which owns ABC so there is a conflict/competition issue from other content generators. They don't want Apple to get a monopoly like they did with the music industry. Also rentals from iTunes is just too expensive in comparison.


I routinely use my PS3 and a Netflix disk to stream shows and movies to my HDTV anytime I want to watch for only $13 or so a month unlimited.

Not all the content is stream-able though, some require a real DVD, so those get sent in the snailmail.



As far as Airport: What I feel occurs is new folks get a Mac and realize they need a internet connection at home. So they call the phone or cable company and they come and install a dual device (modem and wifi in one) or a PC geek friend sets one up for them with a device from online or local store.

To properly set up and harden a router does require some knowledge which may be outside of the typical Apple Store customers learning curve.

To change the default password to a highly complex one, to create encryption WPA2 with AES (WEP and WPA are cracked), to lock out other computers via MAC address, turn off ping and remote access an create just a guest internet access only.

I also find AirPorts necessity to rely upon the time from a computer especially annoying. If the time is wrong, your Airport doesn't work.

Since I ditched my Airport I have been much happier.


Time Machine:

A lifesaver for those newbies who don't know anything about backing up. However since Time Machine isn't bootable, it's a pale solution to simply cloning your entire boot drive using Carbon Copy Cloner or other which is much superior as it also provides hardware protection as you can 'hold option' and boot from it.

A very good and thoughtful post!

A few comments about Time Machine and backups:

Although Time Machine backups don't give you a directly bootable solution, you can combine an OSX reinstall with a TM restore. Although I use SuperDuper or CC myself, that's more thinking than most people are going to devote to backup and recovery (unfortunate but true). This is more about recovery from a catastrophic failure.

The other use for Time Machine backup is the pseudo-point-in-time recoverability for those who may not know which version of a file they need to revert to or exactly when a file was deleted. This is more along the lines of archival recovery for inadvertent data loss and is a different problem from a catastrophic failure.

For those who don't care to be bothered about backups or recovery (and recovery is the real issue), Time Machine backups provide a pretty good integrated solution for most people, and does a pretty reasonable job of tackling both recoverability scenarios. Certainly better than is otherwise accessible to the masses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apfel View Post

Airport Extreme
= IMHO a product for true fanboys
= Missing Features (e.g. QoS)
= Missing Web-Interface (hello Linux)
= No Firmware-Support for OpenFirmwares like DD-WRT or Tomato
= but it looks nice -> very important for true fanboys

Meh. These are niche issues. Nobody but the Linux crowd needs yet another poorly laid out router web interface when a proper application is available, and anyone who wants to run open firmwares like WRT, etc. already knows which routers support that. I don't think the, what?, two thousand affected users are really on the Apple radar because they already have their own solution and their isn't a lot of ROI from that crowd in the first place. QoS would be a nice addition, but is probably not well understood by most people who would buy one of these and wouldn't likely be properly setup by the average person tinkering with QoS settings. AE is a pretty good solution for the masses who just want their stuff to work, and that's a much larger slice of the pie than just "fanboys". But you are entitled to your opinion if it somehow makes you feel superior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus View Post

No ADSL modem either.

Most of the devices on sale from Linksys by Cisco, Netgear, Belkin etc. have built in ADSL modems.

Worthless unless you are one of the few who actually need it. It would just add another SKU. Then another for a DOSCIS 2 or 3 version? Or price the thing up really high to include both DSL and cable modem support to try to cover all bases. And what about FiOS? Or satellite? No, better to let the ISPs sell/rent/give away that technology and stick to the core router technology. I don't want something so integrated that I have to upgrade my router just to be able to upgrade my ISP modem, whatever it may be.

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

  MA497LL/A FB463LL/A MC572LL/A FC060LL/A MD481LL/A MD388LL/A ME344LL/A

Reply

   Apple develops an improved programming language.  Google copied Java.  Everything you need to know, right there.

 

  MA497LL/A FB463LL/A MC572LL/A FC060LL/A MD481LL/A MD388LL/A ME344LL/A

Reply
post #35 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtbard View Post

Another strike against Apple TV is that it primarily only works with HDTVs. That really limits your market. It may take 5 to 10 years for that market share to become more accepted.

What in the world are you babbling on about? Standard definition TVs no longer exist. CRT TVs no longer exist. Nobody manufacturers either one any longer. The only type TV you can buy today is HD, regardless of screen size. I see old crt and sd television sets out on the curb for trash pickup every single day. And the people who still have and use them are definitely not interested in any new fangled gadgets anyway. That's why they still have obsolete technology in the first place.

I mean, really, where are you coming from on this? I'd really like to know.
post #36 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by columbus View Post

No ADSL modem either.

Most of the devices on sale from Linksys by Cisco, Netgear, Belkin etc. have built in ADSL modems.

A built in ADSL modem. Seriously?! Only person I know who has ADSL is my mom. When you say "most devices on sale" you do actually mean like on clearance sale, unwanted stock, right?
post #37 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Having never owned an Airport router of any kind, I have to ask those with experience: Are there really any functional advantages to Apple's routers (like ease of setup) that justify the much higher prices?

Absolutely. Airport routers have a far more intuitive setup and configuration than anything I've ever seen on the PC market. The problems are:

1) Apple don't seem to do a very good job of promoting this ease of use compared to others

2) Many consumers are cheapskates and are hard-pressed to pay extra for elegant design and ease of use

3) Wifi networks are often installed by "the cable guy" or some other "PC guy", who are unlikely to recommend an Apple product.

I also think Airport Express is an awesome product, but with wifi access becoming more commonplace, they're not as essential a travel accessory as they used to be.
post #38 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

The AppleTV isn't going anywhere except niche sales to Mac owners who don't know about Netflix and all the devices (X-Box, PS3, Roku etc) that allow streaming of content directly to their HDTV or computer (uses Microsoft's DRM installed in browsers)

Netflix is neutral, so it has much more content and is the best value around. It's sweet that it remembers where I left off in a movie or TV series, even a few days later. It remembers what I've watched etc.

On the other hand, Steve Jobs is the largest shareholder of Disney, which owns ABC so there is a conflict/competition issue from other content generators. They don't want Apple to get a monopoly like they did with the music industry. Also rentals from iTunes is just too expensive in comparison.


I routinely use my PS3 and a Netflix disk to stream shows and movies to my HDTV anytime I want to watch for only $13 or so a month unlimited.

Not all the content is stream-able though, some require a real DVD, so those get sent in the snailmail.



As far as Airport: What I feel occurs is new folks get a Mac and realize they need a internet connection at home. So they call the phone or cable company and they come and install a dual device (modem and wifi in one) or a PC geek friend sets one up for them with a device from online or local store.

To properly set up and harden a router does require some knowledge which may be outside of the typical Apple Store customers learning curve.

To change the default password to a highly complex one, to create encryption WPA2 with AES (WEP and WPA are cracked), to lock out other computers via MAC address, turn off ping and remote access an create just a guest internet access only.

I also find AirPorts necessity to rely upon the time from a computer especially annoying. If the time is wrong, your Airport doesn't work.

Since I ditched my Airport I have been much happier.


Time Machine:

A lifesaver for those newbies who don't know anything about backing up. However since Time Machine isn't bootable, it's a pale solution to simply cloning your entire boot drive using Carbon Copy Cloner or other which is much superior as it also provides hardware protection as you can 'hold option' and boot from it.

What a tour de force of holier-than-thou, elitist mumbo-jumbo. What's it like looking down your nose at Apple users from your pseudo-tech perch on Mount Olympus? I mean, every single one of your techno-babble talking points is laughable.
post #39 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post

Having never owned an Airport router of any kind, I have to ask those with experience: Are there really any functional advantages to Apple's routers (like ease of setup) that justify the much higher prices?

I have had an Airport extreme for just under 12 months and like it much better than the Belkin Unit I had before. For me the Airport has several advantages - It has better range,is easier to set up - and provides print routing and NAS.

These may be a niche functions market but they work very well for me (I use a Newertech Mini stack which fits perfectly under the extreme)

I particularly like the access control functions are simple and flexible. I have several teenage children with a mixture of laptops and ipod touch devices and the ability to easily and flexibly control the times they access the internet is important. Airport extreme does this simpler than any other device I have seen. The logs and statistics function also is helpful to see who is doing what.

Just like anyone else I would like to see it cheaper, but just like other apple gear the extra $ mean better functionality. I would not hesitate to buy another one



I disagree with the comments about difficulties in setting up secure access etc - If you understand what you are doing the Airport extreme is very easy to use
post #40 of 212
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it:

Apple TV must have a DVR function before it can achieve significant sales. That's probably not the only thing that needs to change on it, but it is a bare minimum.

Apple has shown some very interesting patent applications along the DVR line a few years ago - they are long overdue for release.

Sadly, it would appear that Steve Jobs sold his soul to the TV studios by not bringing an Apple branded DVR function to market in exchange for making shows available on itunes. Personally I'd rather see itunes sacrifice show availability in exchange for a DVR built into iLife and Apple TV if it has to be an either / or choice.
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