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Microsoft, HP introduce touchscreen 'slate PC' at CES - Page 6

post #201 of 244
1/8/10 at 4:50am
There is no real excitement about the "Slate PC" because it is not much new. Microsoft advertised such "slate form factor" devises since years as Ultra-Mobile PCs (UMPC) ... and they didn't sell well at all.

Part of the reason was that they were expensive and clunky and there was no real use-case known for them. The current fuss about tablets is a big different: They are not that expensive since they have to compete with netbooks and smartphones. They finally have a little better design; in particular they are no longer that thick . And you can finally use them with the finger, no need for a stylus.

What is still missing, is the real use-case and how being a full-fledged Windows 7 PC helps with it. They certainly are appealing as a secondary or ternary computer for surfing the web and E-Book reading - so providing bigger screens for that than smartphones and replacing what netbooks were initially designed for before manufacturers starting installing Windows XP on them and selling them as cheap laptops without optical drives. And it's a step ahead if you have dedicated E-Book software on such a device. But browsing the web with a regular Windows browser using a touch screen with no dedicated touch gestures? Not really. Playing regular Windows games? Mostly not interesting if they didn't adapt the controls to a touch screen - just try to play Minesweeper on a touchscreen and you'll see what I mean .... not even starting about first person shooters or flight simulator or anything fancy.

I think, such a devise really needs careful adjustment and Safari on iPhone and the iTunes App Store with tons of E-Book software and games for touch interfaces is a much better direction than just saying "it runs Windows 7" ... but of course, Apps for Cocoa Touch would still needed to be adapted to bigger screens and so on.
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post #202 of 244
1/8/10 at 5:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

Believe it or not it's actually mostly wants. If I need a dentist I will find one on my own. If I see an billboard for a dentist with big boobs I can oogle at while I'm in the chair upside down, I might just visit that dentist once for a lick....I mean kick.

LOL reminds me a little of that Seinfeld episode where they put him under and after that he feels "violated" somehow
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post #203 of 244
1/8/10 at 5:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifail View Post

MP3 players weren't niche, they were just extremely high priced but were the next logic step for music consumption and if you think otherwise then you'd still be lugging a case of CDs around.

Just to correct you on this. Before the iPod, MP3 players were not high priced. Especially compared to the iPod, which when released, was $399 for 5GB, making it the most expensive MP3 player ever. Throughout the iPod's rise to popularity, there were always cheaper alternatives, as there are today.

But before the iPod, MP3 players fit into one of two categories. Tiny in capacity (16MB-128MB -- that's MEGABYTES) or huge physically with a 2.5" hard drive, making them too large to fit in a typical pocket. Apple came in and gave us a combination of capacity and portability, together with a beautiful design, a fantastic human interface method (scrollwheel), and a big enough display to make it really useful.

MP3 players were a niche product and only computer nerds cared about them. The iPod changed that. Not immediately, as when it was released, only Apple computer nerds cared about them, but eventually, as word got around that this was a terrific way to listen to music, even for people who did NOT care about downloading music off Napster (which it had not been before the iPod).
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post #204 of 244
1/8/10 at 5:23am
Go away Sir, your common sense is not needed nor appropriate here. You're correct, FFS Ballmer didn't really demo doing anything much on the HP Slate did he?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpM View Post

There is no real excitement about the "Slate PC" because it is not much new. Microsoft advertised such "slate form factor" devises since years as Ultra-Mobile PCs (UMPC) ... and they didn't sell well at all.

Part of the reason was that they were expensive and clunky and there was no real use-case known for them. The current fuss about tablets is a big different: They are not that expensive since they have to compete with netbooks and smartphones. They finally have a little better design; in particular they are no longer that thick . And you can finally use them with the finger, no need for a stylus.

What is still missing, is the real use-case and how being a full-fledged Windows 7 PC helps with it. They certainly are appealing as a secondary or ternary computer for surfing the web and E-Book reading - so providing bigger screens for that than smartphones and replacing what netbooks were initially designed for before manufacturers starting installing Windows XP on them and selling them as cheap laptops without optical drives. And it's a step ahead if you have dedicated E-Book software on such a device. But browsing the web with a regular Windows browser using a touch screen with no dedicated touch gestures? Not really. Playing regular Windows games? Mostly not interesting if they didn't adapt the controls to a touch screen - just try to play Minesweeper on a touchscreen and you'll see what I mean .... not even starting about first person shooters or flight simulator or anything fancy.

I think, such a devise really needs careful adjustment and Safari on iPhone and the iTunes App Store with tons of E-Book software and games for touch interfaces is a much better direction than just saying "it runs Windows 7" ... but of course, Apps for Cocoa Touch would still needed to be adapted to bigger screens and so on.
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post #205 of 244
1/8/10 at 5:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Just to correct you on this. Before the iPod, MP3 players were not high priced. Especially compared to the iPod, which when released, was $399 for 5GB, making it the most expensive MP3 player ever. Throughout the iPod's rise to popularity, there were always cheaper alternatives, as there are today.

But before the iPod, MP3 players fit into one of two categories. Tiny in capacity (16MB-128MB -- that's MEGABYTES) or huge physically with a 2.5" hard drive, making them too large to fit in a typical pocket. Apple came in and gave us a combination of capacity and portability, together with a beautiful design, a fantastic human interface method (scrollwheel), and a big enough display to make it really useful.

MP3 players were a niche product and only computer nerds cared about them. The iPod changed that. Not immediately, as when it was released, only Apple computer nerds cared about them, but eventually, as word got around that this was a terrific way to listen to music, even for people who did NOT care about downloading music off Napster (which it had not been before the iPod).

And just to correct YOU on a couple points (), the iPod did not initially have a click wheel and Apple nerds really didn't care that much either. Apple users were the most vocal with the 'WTF Apple?' comments. It wasn't until we got the click wheel and the iTunes store that it really took off as a consume device.
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post #206 of 244
1/8/10 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefyre View Post

It wasn't until we got the click wheel and the iTunes store that it really took off as a consume device.

And I think everyone is waiting with great anticipation to see what Apple brings to the already existing, but niche and historically expensive slate/tablet platform that is the equivalent of the click wheel and iTunes. Some "a ha!" innovation that will open up the market not just for Apple, but for all the copy-cats, too.

MS obviously isn't trying. Or they are so big and have their fingers in so many pots that they can't/won't take the time to apply their very prodigious brain-power to designing and releasing a REAL tablet user experience. (Not OS. Windows 7 is a perfectly adequate OS for a slate. But the entire user experience from start up, typical use, integration with content sources, to shut down. That's where Apple makes their money.)

- Jasen.
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post #207 of 244
1/8/10 at 8:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefyre View Post

It wasn't until we got the click wheel and the iTunes store that it really took off as a consume device.

#1. I don't eat my music

#2. It's because of torrents that iPods have taken off.

Take away the people who download illegal music and rip DVDs to their iPods and you don't have many sales.

Torrent users do not make a small segment. It's a HUGE base. And those people share GBs with their friends who don't download. All the girls I know get there music by asking their bfs who download music. "Download this and that for me please".
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post #208 of 244
1/8/10 at 8:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

#1. I don't eat my music

#2. It's because of torrents that iPods have taken off.

Take away the people downloading illegal music who bought iPods and you don't have many sales.

Take away the iPod and the iTunes Store and you don't have many sales.
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post #209 of 244
1/8/10 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

Take away the iPod and the iTunes Store and you don't have many sales.

But now you're talking about apps too aren't you? We were talking about a long time ago when the click wheel came out and no one knew what apps were. At that time you certainly didn't need the iTunes store.

Hey did the iPod and iTunes debut at same time? Was there ever a time with iPods but no store? Of course right?
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post #210 of 244
1/8/10 at 8:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefyre View Post

And just to correct YOU on a couple points (), the iPod did not initially have a click wheel and Apple nerds really didn't care that much either. Apple users were the most vocal with the 'WTF Apple?' comments. It wasn't until we got the click wheel and the iTunes store that it really took off as a consume device.

I was an Apple nerd, and I saw the original iPod for exactly what it was. It was the MP3 device that had me sold the minute I heard about it. I posted on these very forums that it would be hugely successful. It was exactly what I wanted in a music playback device. I bought it the very first day it was available here in HK (in January 2002).

Of course, I meant to say "scroll wheel", which had the exact features of the click wheel, less the solid state mechanics. Solid state or not, the scroll wheel was a revolutionary concept. It was actually opening it up to Windows that allowed it to take off, not the iTunes store.
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post #211 of 244
1/8/10 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I was an Apple nerd, and I saw the original iPod for exactly what it was. It was the MP3 device that had me sold the minute I heard about it. I posted on these very forums that it would be hugely successful. It was exactly what I wanted in a music playback device. I bought it the very first day it was available here in HK (in January 2002).

Of course, I meant to say "scroll wheel", which had the exact features of the click wheel, less the solid state mechanics. Solid state or not, the scroll wheel was a revolutionary concept. It was actually opening it up to Windows that allowed it to take off, not the iTunes store.

Fair enough. But the majority of the Apple nerds really didn't see the point yet of the iPod at first release. I didn't buy one until gen 4 personally.

Quote:
#1. I don't eat my music
#2. It's because of torrents that iPods have taken off.

LOL. Oops. I meant consumer. And I do not agree with #2. The average consumer doesn't even know what torrent means. And the avergae consumer is what made the iPod a success. Over 6 billion songs downloaded off iTunes. That says it all right there.

Quote:
And I think everyone is waiting with great anticipation to see what Apple brings to the already existing, but niche and historically expensive slate/tablet platform that is the equivalent of the click wheel and iTunes. Some "a ha!" innovation that will open up the market not just for Apple, but for all the copy-cats, too.

Right. And that is what alot of people keep missing time and time again when they downplay Apple products. They are so focused on the specs and the gadget and not on the experience and integrations.
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post #212 of 244
1/8/10 at 9:23am
Did "torrents" even exist when the iPod started ramping up sales? I know that file sharing services like the old Napster had a hand in putting a lot of music on peoples iPods, as did CD rips, but I'd be surprised if torrents were in broad enough use back then to have had much of an impact on sales.
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post #213 of 244
1/8/10 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefyre View Post

LOL. Oops. I meant consumer. And I do not agree with #2. The average consumer doesn't even know what torrent means. And the avergae consumer is what made the iPod a success.

That's irrelevant. Yes the iPod is a success. No, it's not because of music sales on iTunes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Did "torrents" even exist when the iPod started ramping up sales? I know that file sharing services like the old Napster had a hand in putting a lot of music on peoples iPods, as did CD rips, but I'd be surprised if torrents were in broad enough use back then to have had much of an impact on sales.

yeah but we're talking about when and what caused a more rapid increase of music sales on iTunes. It has been happening ever since torrenting took off.
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post #214 of 244
1/8/10 at 9:30am
sorry DP
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post #215 of 244
1/8/10 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

That's irrelevant. Yes the iPod is a success. No, it's not because of music sales on iTunes.

yeah but we're talking about when and what caused a more rapid increase of music sales on iTunes. It has been happening ever since torrenting took off.

OK, I took a look at the two timelines and I stand corrected-- torrents did indeed ramp up just prior to the iPods big run at mass sales. I was thinking that mass torrent use came a little later.
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post #216 of 244
1/8/10 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

That's irrelevant. Yes the iPod is a success. No, it's not because of music sales on iTunes.

yeah but we're talking about when and what caused a more rapid increase of music sales on iTunes. It has been happening ever since torrenting took off.

What is irrelevant? The average customer? You really want to stick with that story? And now you are saying torrents caused the rapid increase of sales on iTunes? You got any actual market research or numbers to back that up? Nevermind that that is NOT what we are talking about.The sales of the iPod TRIPLED the quarter after the iTunes store opened even beating out the previous Christmas sales. Before that sales fluctuated up and down. Actual numbers back up what I have said.
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post #217 of 244
1/8/10 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefyre View Post

What is irrelevant? The average customer? You really want to stick with that story? And now you are saying torrents caused the rapid increase of sales on iTunes? You got any actual market research or numbers to back that up? Nevermind that that is NOT what we are talking about.The sales of the iPod TRIPLED the quarter after the iTunes store opened even beating out the previous Christmas sales. Before that sales fluctuated up and down. Actual numbers back up what I have said.

Right. Good old Post Hoc fallacy. Just because torrent and iPod use may have been growing at the same time by no means establishes that the one had anything to do with the other.
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post #218 of 244
1/8/10 at 11:46am
i dont really know about MP3 players being niche, i was a 7th grader at the time the ipod debuted and there were a few kids rolling around with MP3 players one of whom was my friend who also introduced me to Torrents, i didnt even see my first iPod until halfway in 8th grade (2002) and the time i went to high school in 03 they had blown up.

I remember seeing my first iPod, it was the one that didnt look like an an eye sore because it didnt have the raised buttons. I didnt get my first one until 05? It was the first year the Nano came out iirc cause i got a 4gb in black for christmas cause i had a Moto Rokr that i had all kinds of modded and broke that 100 song limit Apple imposed until i bricked it and couldnt get it to boot anymore and i only had it for a few months lol.

Anyways the iPod benefited from the huge boom of computers in homes (we didnt get one until like high school cause we got DSL) and piracy. iirc Napster had been shutdown around 03 but Kazaa had taken over and Limewire was the largely unknown p2p client. CD-Rs were still way overpriced at this time as well so burning CDs was illogical but not dead since cars didnt have MP3 playback (so you still kept that case of CDs) or hook ups. All these things culminated to the iPods success.
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post #219 of 244
1/8/10 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifail View Post

i dont really know about MP3 players being niche, i was a 7th grader at the time the ipod debuted and there were a few kids rolling around with MP3 players one of whom was my friend who also introduced me to Torrents, i didnt even see my first iPod until halfway in 8th grade (2002) and the time i went to high school in 03 they had blown up.

I remember seeing my first iPod, it was the one that didnt look like an an eye sore because it didnt have the raised buttons. I didnt get my first one until 05? It was the first year the Nano came out iirc cause i got a 4gb in black for christmas cause i had a Moto Rokr that i had all kinds of modded and broke that 100 song limit Apple imposed until i bricked it and couldnt get it to boot anymore and i only had it for a few months lol.

Anyways the iPod benefited from the huge boom of computers in homes (we didnt get one until like high school cause we got DSL) and piracy. iirc Napster had been shutdown around 03 but Kazaa had taken over and Limewire was the largely unknown p2p client. CD-Rs were still way overpriced at this time as well so burning CDs was illogical but not dead since cars didnt have MP3 playback (so you still kept that case of CDs) or hook ups. All these things culminated to the iPods success.

I'm sorry, but citing your personal experience and running through some contemporaneous developments to conclude that "All these things culminated to the iPods success" is backwards reasoning, aka the Post Hoc fallacy.

It's also a variation on the standard "right place, right time" argument that Apple skeptics trot out to explain any successes that company may have, with the implication that Apple just blunders into its good fortune by being slightly ahead of the curve.

If you bring out a product that changes its market, and the entire associated economy of that market, forever, maybe, just maybe, that's "luck." If you do it twice within a few years, all the while growing your computer market share and posting the best profits in the business, maybe there's a really smart, capable strategy at work?

If you have to make convoluted arguments to explain Apple's runaway success with formally fringe segments of the computing industry, in order to establish that any tablet from Apple is destined to fail, I would take that as a sign that there's a problem with your underlying assumptions.
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post #220 of 244
1/9/10 at 10:48am
I crabbed the links from the Macalope, but it is pretty interesting to look at the last two time MS introduced a "slate" computer. By the way, for all the people strenuously insisting that "slate" is the customary name for these things so shut up all ready about MS fucking with Apple by calling it such, you'll note that they didn't call it that in either of these previous cases, going with "tablet" and "UMPC" respectively. Please also note that this sorry track record might just have a wee bit to do with why we've failed to be blown away by the Next Great Thing From the People Who Depend On Your Short Term Memory Loss.

I would also urge anyone still under the thrall of "Courier" to take a good long look at MS's giddy conceptual videos for their Origami UMPC thingee, if only because it's classic MS "just close your eyes and dream with us" marketing. I well remember the cries of the faithful when that bit of whimsy was distributed, about how Apple was about to get slammed by genuine innovation, how MS's deep pockets and vast underground caverns of research bots were bringing the hurt, and how Cupertino was suddenly left looking like yesterday's news. Listening to people talk about MS and Apple is like living in Groundhog's day, except MS and her fans are Bill Murray and they never learn a goddamn thing.

I like the Macalope's take:

Quote:
Microsoft’s tablet “strategy” is like an Escher painting, full of staircases leading in every direction that all ultimately just go round in circles. The company so badly wants to be Prometheus, bringing fire to the mortals. Instead it’s like some drunk dude flicking matches at us.
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post #221 of 244
1/10/10 at 10:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JumpM View Post

There is no real excitement about the "Slate PC" because it is not much new. Microsoft advertised such "slate form factor" devises since years as Ultra-Mobile PCs (UMPC) ... and they didn't sell well at all.

Part of the reason was that they were expensive and clunky and there was no real use-case known for them. The current fuss about tablets is a big different: They are not that expensive since they have to compete with netbooks and smartphones. They finally have a little better design; in particular they are no longer that thick . And you can finally use them with the finger, no need for a stylus.

What is still missing, is the real use-case and how being a full-fledged Windows 7 PC helps with it. They certainly are appealing as a secondary or ternary computer for surfing the web and E-Book reading - so providing bigger screens for that than smartphones and replacing what netbooks were initially designed for before manufacturers starting installing Windows XP on them and selling them as cheap laptops without optical drives. And it's a step ahead if you have dedicated E-Book software on such a device. But browsing the web with a regular Windows browser using a touch screen with no dedicated touch gestures? Not really. Playing regular Windows games? Mostly not interesting if they didn't adapt the controls to a touch screen - just try to play Minesweeper on a touchscreen and you'll see what I mean .... not even starting about first person shooters or flight simulator or anything fancy.

I think, such a devise really needs careful adjustment and Safari on iPhone and the iTunes App Store with tons of E-Book software and games for touch interfaces is a much better direction than just saying "it runs Windows 7" ... but of course, Apps for Cocoa Touch would still needed to be adapted to bigger screens and so on.

I'm actually the opposite! I can't see why you wouldn't want your slate running Windows 7 (or OS X). IMO the worst thing Apple can do is treat their slate as an iPhone with a bigger screen. Having a totally custom UI\\OS works brilliantly for the iPhone\\iPod but it would be limiting for a larger screen device.

If I'm going to be handing over many hundreds of dollars I want a versatile all-in-one device that not only acts as an eBook/portable media device/web & email browser but is also able to replace my netbook, rather than just be another way to consume iTunes content (i.e. like Apple TV).

At the moment I take an iPhone, iPod and a netbook with me so it doesn't matter how pretty Apple's slate is there is just no way it is going to find room in my bag if it can't replace my netbook.

The other alternative if that it never leaves the house and is just a convenient way to read and web browse without having a netbook on my lap which sounds awesome... but not for $500+.
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post #222 of 244
1/10/10 at 10:39pm
Please tell me at least this is not just win 7 in a small form factor meaning windows start menu and so on.

A new touch device should have icons similar to msicosofts control panel where you touch the icin and it does something. Not just a slimmed down windows machine. And where is the courier??
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post #223 of 244
1/11/10 at 2:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidfcp View Post

Please tell me at least this is not just win 7 in a small form factor meaning windows start menu and so on.

A new touch device should have icons similar to msicosofts control panel where you touch the icin and it does something. Not just a slimmed down windows machine. And where is the courier??

Yes it is full Windows 7 and thank god for that. The MS slate is a netbook replacement, not an iPhone with a big screen.
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post #224 of 244
1/11/10 at 2:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

Yes it is full Windows 7 and thank god for that. The MS slate is a netbook replacement, not an iPhone with a big screen.

But how do you press all the tiny icons and so on if it is just running Windows 7 without any sort of "Slate GUI" or something on top of it? Do you use a stylus? Is there a "Slate GUI" for Windows 7?
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post #225 of 244
1/11/10 at 2:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

The other alternative if that it never leaves the house and is just a convenient way to read and web browse without having a netbook on my lap which sounds awesome... but not for $500+.

I'm predicting this angle. Convenient way to do stuff without needing a netbook or laptop, $699 and $799 price points. For home use, and for those on-the-road who want something netbook-like but don't want a netbook (for many reasons) nor want to carry around their heavier, more expensive laptop.

It will be hella sexy for the ladies too, instead of the clunky netbook you have a sleek slate you can slide in your handbag. Not to say that it is effeminate, for the guys it's just cool tech that you could carry around instead of your netbook.

Home use, and on the road, and with the App Store it will have special uses in some verticals eg. Medical industry.

Apple will price it for 30% gross profit margins or so. Or maybe there will be 3G models sold through telco partnerships to make it "affordable".
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post #226 of 244
1/11/10 at 5:43am
Sure the thing I was holding was not much more than a electronic photoframe, but most people don't know that and that's what counts! I've bought enough time to actually develope this stuff for real! Once we see what Jobs does the bar is set!

You people are soooo gullible!
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post #227 of 244
1/11/10 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

But how do you press all the tiny icons and so on if it is just running Windows 7 without any sort of "Slate GUI" or something on top of it? Do you use a stylus? Is there a "Slate GUI" for Windows 7?

Right. How do you use Office? Are there a lot of third party apps that have been tailored for slate duty? Just saying "Oh good, Windows 7, it's a net book replacement" doesn't really mean much.
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post #228 of 244
1/11/10 at 7:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

But how do you press all the tiny icons and so on if it is just running Windows 7 without any sort of "Slate GUI" or something on top of it? Do you use a stylus? Is there a "Slate GUI" for Windows 7?

The same way you press the tiny icons on the iPhone\\iTouch At 1024*576 an 11" slate would have about 5% less pixels\\inch than the 27" iMac. In other words... the screen isn't that small for the resolution.

That said I'd be surprised if they didn't eventually come up with some kind of slate UI. The most likely candidate would be Windows Presentation Foundation apps hosted in a Media Centre - ish launcher. That most certainly wasn't part of the demo though.

The concept of Microsoft\\Apple getting rid of the back end Windows\\OS X in these slate devices just because people expect it to look like an iPhone seems to me like throwing out the baby with the bath water.




Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Right. How do you use Office? Are there a lot of third party apps that have been tailored for slate duty? Just saying "Oh good, Windows 7, it's a net book replacement" doesn't really mean much.

Unless you have really massive fingers (I'm talking "mash the keyboard to continue" big) Windows 7 & Office are both functional on a touch screen. Granted you aren't going to want to write a novel using a 5" on screen keyboard, but for basic document editing it would be fine.




Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

I'm predicting this angle. Convenient way to do stuff without needing a netbook or laptop, $699 and $799 price points. For home use, and for those on-the-road who want something netbook-like but don't want a netbook (for many reasons) nor want to carry around their heavier, more expensive laptop.

It will be hella sexy for the ladies too, instead of the clunky netbook you have a sleek slate you can slide in your handbag. Not to say that it is effeminate, for the guys it's just cool tech that you could carry around instead of your netbook.

Home use, and on the road, and with the App Store it will have special uses in some verticals eg. Medical industry.

Apple will price it for 30% gross profit margins or so. Or maybe there will be 3G models sold through telco partnerships to make it "affordable".

IMO it's risky to go for the "iPhone with big screen". In a way Apple have made the iPhone too good. Basic email, contacts, appointments, web browsing on-the-go... people have iPhone's to do that.

If 6 months go by and Microsoft release a Windows 7 front end UI for slate devices meaning they can have all the pretty stuff as well as replace your netbook... "iPhone with big screen" for $799 just doesn't seem like the best deal.

Personally I'm hoping for OS X with a pretty new UI. If not then I wait to see what Microsoft comes up with.
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post #229 of 244
1/11/10 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

The same way you press the tiny icons on the iPhone\\iTouch At 1024*576 an 11" slate would have about 5% less pixels\\inch than the 27" iMac. In other words... the screen isn't that small for the resolution.

That said I'd be surprised if they didn't eventually come up with some kind of slate UI. The most likely candidate would be Windows Presentation Foundation apps hosted in a Media Centre - ish launcher. That most certainly wasn't part of the demo though.

It's more than just slapping some touch stuff on there-- it's how all the parts interact, thinking through the entire idea of a 10" device that you hold in your hand-- where your hands are likely to be, what you'll be using it for, etc. The "tiny icons" of the iPhone are all designed with that device in mind-- not just scaled down bits of desktop UI, but a very specific vocabulary of shapes, positioning and interaction.

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The concept of Microsoft\\Apple getting rid of the back end Windows\\OS X in these slate devices just because people expect it to look like an iPhone seems to me like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Apple hasn't and won't get rid of the OS X back end though-- it's there on the iPhone, it'll be there on the slate. What won't be there is any aspect of a desktop environment that doesn't make sense, and that's likely to be the point of differentiation between what Apple and MS's approach. MS will be content to make some of the Windows UI elements touchable instead of clickable, maybe put a flashy animation or home screen on it, and call it a day. Apple's going to make an integrated device, every aspect of which will be tailored to that particular form factor.

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IMO it's risky to go for the "iPhone with big screen". In a way Apple have made the iPhone too good. Basic email, contacts, appointments, web browsing on-the-go... people have iPhone's to do that.

There's no chance of that happening. People may call it that, because the UI may look more like the iPhone than desktop OS X, but the software will be designed to work with the size and power of that particular device.

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If 6 months go by and Microsoft release a Windows 7 front end UI for slate devices meaning they can have all the pretty stuff as well as replace your netbook... "iPhone with big screen" for $799 just doesn't seem like the best deal.

Personally I'm hoping for OS X with a pretty new UI. If not then I wait to see what Microsoft comes up with.

Again, it goes far deeper than "pretty stuff." MS has been doing tablets for years. They seem to have figured out that limiting them to styli isn't going to cut it, I suspect that means little more than making targets a little bigger. At heart, it'll still be a desktop OS with touching replacing clicking. MS is too invested in the brand of Windows to do much more. Apple doesn't have that problem-- they're not in the OS X business, they're in the whole widget business.

If you think what a slate needs is a desktop OS with "pretty", you may have not thought very hard about how you might actually use such a device.
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post #230 of 244
1/11/10 at 10:57am
Rob Enderle has Spoken

"HP Blindsides Apple

At the Microsoft keynote, an HP-branded slate product was showcased which looked a great deal like what many think the Apple tablet will look like.

However, unlike the Apple tablet, which is rumored to be running the limited iPhone OS, HP's (NYSE: HPQ) tablet runs Windows 7. Granted, both devices are more imagination than reality at the moment, but HP's product could actually launch before Apple's."
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post #231 of 244
1/11/10 at 11:54am
The problem with the slate device Ballmer introduced last week is that it runs Windows. That's why people aren't impressed.
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post #232 of 244
1/11/10 at 10:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by piot View Post

Rob Enderle has Spoken

"HP Blindsides Apple

At the Microsoft keynote, an HP-branded slate product was showcased which looked a great deal like what many think the Apple tablet will look like.

However, unlike the Apple tablet, which is rumored to be running the limited iPhone OS, HP's (NYSE: HPQ) tablet runs Windows 7. Granted, both devices are more imagination than reality at the moment, but HP's product could actually launch before Apple's."

How can a prototype or set of prototypes, that is shipping "sometime in the year" blindside something that nobody even knows if it is coming out or not?

It's like the I'm a Mac vs PC ads, except with ghosts.
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post #233 of 244
1/11/10 at 10:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by icyfog View Post

The problem with the slate device Ballmer introduced last week is that it runs Windows. That's why people aren't impressed.

I think maybe Windows is okay, but AFAIK there was no significantly-demonstrated "Touch UI/ Slate UI" layer running on top of that, right? It was just like a netbook with the screen only.
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post #234 of 244
1/12/10 at 6:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post

It's like the I'm a Mac vs PC ads, except with ghosts.

Microsoft's "Courier" also has it's fans. And so far, that is just a cartoon of a prototype!
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post #235 of 244
1/13/10 at 2:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by John the Geek View Post

Or it could just be the word for a tablet that has no keyboard. Slate computers have been around for years. They just always used a stylus until now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiles77 View Post

I have to say, this is sad.
I guess all those courier fans on the other thread have to fess up.
Microsoft blew it.
Bye-bye, so-called "new, innovative Microsoft"

More of the same.

You would think with MS deep pockets that they could produce the courier, making it their own hardwar and not oem. Time for MS to stop thinking like engineers and IBM and release something like the courier that would probably do well in education and business and if they had 100% control meaning no OEM, they could build better products. They need more creativity or allow those that have the idea, to put them out. I mean songsmith. Case closed. They have too much money to be releasing things like that.
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post #236 of 244
1/13/10 at 5:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

If you think what a slate needs is a desktop OS with "pretty", you may have not thought very hard about how you might actually use such a device.

I'm just caught up in all the hype. Unless Apple decide to remove the app store restrictions what you describe is a niche device to consume iTunes content (like Apple TV), not something that would appeal to the mass market.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidfcp View Post

You would think with MS deep pockets that they could produce the courier, making it their own hardwar and not oem. Time for MS to stop thinking like engineers and IBM and release something like the courier that would probably do well in education and business and if they had 100% control meaning no OEM, they could build better products. They need more creativity or allow those that have the idea, to put them out. I mean songsmith. Case closed. They have too much money to be releasing things like that.

It would probably be running Windows 7 which would just get them another anti-trust case. It sounds pretty stupid but we are talking about the same regulatory bodies that don't think a web browser or a media player are part of an OS experience.
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post #237 of 244
1/13/10 at 5:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I'm just caught up in all the hype. Unless Apple decide to remove the app store restrictions what you describe is a niche device to consume iTunes content (like Apple TV), not something that would appeal to the mass market.

Maybe you're right, but to me your comment reminds me of Steve Ballmer's of the iPhone.
"There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance."
Given Apple's recent track record, I wouldn't bet against Apple.
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post #238 of 244
1/13/10 at 6:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by icyfog View Post

Maybe you're right, but to me your comment reminds me of Steve Ballmer's of the iPhone. "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance." Given Apple's recent track record, I wouldn't bet against Apple.

I don't see the similarity because they are two totally different markets. What is the iPhone market share anyway? I thought it was something like 2-3%. Have the 2009 numbers been released yet?

Apple's track record is to produce an absolutely perfect product for a niche market. The iPod is actually something of an anomaly. The iPhone is still too early to call I think unless the numbers have changed dramatically in 2009.
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post #239 of 244
1/13/10 at 7:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

What is the iPhone market share anyway? I thought it was something like 2-3%. Have the 2009 numbers been released yet?

It's tiny. But it is enough to make Apple the most profitable cellphone manufacturer in the world. Passing Nokia this year.

C.
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post #240 of 244
1/13/10 at 10:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefly7475 View Post

I don't see the similarity because they are two totally different markets. What is the iPhone market share anyway? I thought it was something like 2-3%. Have the 2009 numbers been released yet?

Apple's track record is to produce an absolutely perfect product for a niche market.

For the last quarter, iPhone had a 17% share of the smartphone market. That's the market that counts. That's the market that Balmer was talking about.

Total smartphones this year... about 160 million. That's no longer a niche.
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