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Brit Hume: Completely Clueless, as usual. - Page 5

post #161 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

That really bothers you for some reason... How does my belief hurt you? Not anyone else, just you.

It doesn't bother me per se - people can believe whatever they like.

What does start to bother me is if that belief impacts me. Which it does on the case of Fundie Xians.

Put it like this:

I 100% believe everyone can believe whatever they wish with impunity.
But if someone starts to believe they need to eradicate people living at my address then we go to another level.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #162 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No, I have a problem with the fact that people who can be unrepentant of their atrocities against other people and the planet can bask in the bosom of the Lord for eternity simply by telling the Lord they love Him, while people who teach forgiveness and love ON EARTH spend eternity in hell because they didn't.

What a disgusting idea.

Good thing we don't get to judge isn't it? Takes all that pressure off and allows to worry about things under our actual control. Like, what to have for breakfast or how much aid to send to Haiti through donations. Stuff like that.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #163 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It doesn't bother me per se - people can believe whatever they like.

What does start to bother me is if that belief impacts me. Which it does on the case of Fundie Xians.

Put it like this:

I 100% believe everyone can believe whatever they wish with impunity.
But if someone starts to believe they need to eradicate people living at my address then we go to another level.

Really? Fundie's are trying to eradicate you at your address. Have you called the authorities?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #164 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

What I'd really love is if someone could take responsibility and punishment for all the things I have one wrong in my life without me doing anything to deserve it. And not just for me, but for everyone in the world. And not only that, but that there would be no catch, just accepting that that person did it for me. That would be totally awesome...

Doesn't that sound utterly convenient and like you're just looking to dodge responsibility for your own actions? And no, I don't want someone to die for me. That would be truly awful.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #165 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

So you have a problem with the fact that people you don't like may be forgiven? Gandhi and the Dalai Lama have the same shot as everyone else. Nobody on this forum gets to decide. There is only one who does that and neither of us is him.

No, he's saying the system you believe in seems inherently UNJUST if people like Gandhi and the Dalai Lama get eternal damnation and mass murderers get to enjoy paradise for eternity. That doesn't seem like the work of a very loving god to me. That seems like the work of a very insecure, vengeful, and all too human god.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #166 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

No, I have a problem with the idea that people who can be unrepentant of their atrocities against other people and the planet can bask in the bosom of the Lord for eternity simply by telling the Lord they love Him, while people who teach forgiveness and love ON EARTH spend eternity in hell because they didn't.

What a disgusting thing to believe.

You are a good person, Noah. I absolutely believe that. How can you believe such a thing?

Disgusting, repugnant, evil.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #167 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Really? Fundie's are trying to eradicate you at your address. Have you called the authorities?

Edit: had a mild dose of the religio-virus there...I need to take some poppy tea and lie down...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #168 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

That seems like the work of a very insecure, vengeful, and all too human god.

Bingo.

Which is how we know such a God cannot exist (btw - I love the way you refuse to capitalize God..it's a very subtle and personalised touch!) - whatever else God may be we know one thing: He would not be human.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #169 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

No, he's saying the system you believe in seems inherently UNJUST if people like Gandhi and the Dalai Lama get eternal damnation and mass murderers get to enjoy paradise for eternity. That doesn't seem like the work of a very loving god to me. That seems like the work of a very insecure, vengeful, and all too human god.

If only arguments were as simple as that. He brings up 2 names in his post and now they are damned to hell. Case closed, evil god. The only problem is, you or I don't write that part of the story. Wait until later to see how it actually turns out before you get pissed off about it.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #170 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

If only arguments were as simple as that. He brings up 2 names in his post and now they are damned to hell. Case closed, evil god. The only problem is, you or I don't write that part of the story. Wait until later to see how it actually turns out before you get pissed off about it.

Why?

Would you 'wait and see how it turns out' if Al Qaeda want to enforce shari'a law in your back yard?

Maybe before they enforce it and while they blow up a few malls you could be 'waiting to see..'

And btw, this argument IS as simple as that.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #171 of 204
I believe that all God's children will have an equal opportunity to hear and accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ - in this life or the next. The decision on what ultimately happens to us after we leave this mortal coil is purely our own.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #172 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I believe that all God's children will have an equal opportunity to hear and accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ - in this life or the next. The decision on what ultimately happens to us after we leave this mortal coil is purely our own.

Very poor. Let's take an analogy, it seems somehow easier than theology:

Say I create a game. I sequester you as a player, without your consent.

In the game there is food. Your natural inclination is to eat it. I put it there. But some of it is poisoned. I put that there too. Or perhaps I invited someone else to play the game knowing they would put it there.

Either way I could remove it. I don't do this though. I put a lot of conflicting notes in the game. Some say there is a poison, some say there is none, some offer antidotes but only one is true.

All the players of the game run around eating the food. Some die. Some believe the correct note and survive.

I end up with a lot of dead bodies and some gloating survivors who are happy to be 'saved'.

When the police come to take me away I am screaming "But they had free will!!! I gave them every chance!! My heart is breaking they rejected my plan for their salvation!!!!".

It doesn't quite work does it?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #173 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Very poor. Let's take an analogy, it seems somehow easier than theology:

Say I create a game. I sequester you as a player, without your consent.

In the game there is food. Your natural inclination is to eat it. I put it there. But some of it is poisoned. I put that there too. Or perhaps I invited someone else to play the game knowing they would put it there.

Either way I could remove it. I don't do this though. I put a lot of conflicting notes in the game. Some say there is a poison, some say there is none, some offer antidotes but only one is true.

All the players of the game run around eating the food. Some die. Some believe the correct note and survive.

I end up with a lot of dead bodies and some gloating survivors who are happy to be 'saved'.

When the police come to take me away I am screaming "But they had free will!!! I gave them every chance!! My heart is breaking they rejected my plan for their salvation!!!!".

It doesn't quite work does it?

It works if you can communicate directly with the creator of the game to know what the truth is.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #174 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

It works if you can communicate directly with the creator of the game to know what the truth is.

Yeah, but my point would be that in that case the creator of the game would be a fucking maniac. I think you missed that bit.

But any rational (rational) person knows God cannot be that - so that particular God and His alleged plans cannot exist. QED.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #175 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Ignorance is primarily a liberal disease. Ignorance of history is a liberal mandate.

The Red Cross was founded by Henry Dunant, a devout Calvinist

Oxfam was founded by a group of Quakers, in the library of an Oxford church. Key to the effort was Cecil Jackson-Cole, a devout Christian.

The same devout Christian went on to form ActionAid.



I have not disrespected any non-Christian participating in the relief effort. I have simply pointed out that Christian humanitarian relief comprises a large chunk of the effort, and also pointed out that those who deny the existence of God, shake their fists and rage at those who "believe in fairy tales", do very little of the humanitarian work they claim to support.



That's not what He's going to ask. There's only one question.


I didn't know that ActionAid was set up by a Quaker but I knew about the other two. But that's really not the point. Those charities are full of atheists etc who contribute their time energy and resources in the same way that Christians do. You seem to want to dismiss them and to paint a picture that the only one's who get off their arses and help are Christians. I'm sure their are many other charities that I'm not aware of, that were set up by atheists and are open to atheists who do charitable work as well.

I think your notion that God will ask you one question to decide your fate is way overly simplistic and optimistic on your part. The light of one's spirit may well be with Jesus but the darkness of one's spirit may well be with the demons, as Jesus so suffered. It's one thing to know there's the light of Jesus it's another thing altogether to loose it and it's not his job to prevent you from loosing it. That's your job and if Jesus can loose it, so will you.
"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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"I have been made victorious by terror~ Muhammad

"The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam," ~ Barack Obama

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post #176 of 204
Just as an FYI - the major player in the relief op World Vision:

Many Don't Know of World Vision's Evangelical Mission

Quote:
What the article failed to mention, and many donors fail to realize, is that World Vision is an Evangelical Christian organization with a mission that includes "serving as a witness to the gospel of Jesus Christ".

World Vision shares the Church's commitment to disciple followers of Jesus Christ who bear witness to the Gospel by life, deed, word and sign, with the goal of encouraging people to respond to the Gospel. We do this through the life of service that we lead, the deeds of Christian love we perform, the words that we share about our faith and the signs of prayers answered as we visibly and concretely improve the lives of others."

And:

The truth about World Vision

Quote:
what goes unnoticed by the governments and the corporate world is World Vision Indias evangelical missions as part of its development agenda. Proselytisation (conversion of faith) is an integral part of its provision of development services under its much-touted ADP programmes.

Take, for instance, World Vision New Zealands report (4 September 2002) on the funding of ADP in Dahod, Gujarat. Under the head, spiritual development the report states:

Held a vacation Bible school for 150 children from different villages. The children participated in games, Bible quizzes, drama and other activities. Organised a one-day spiritual retreat for 40 young people and a childrens Christmas party. Each of Dahods 45 villages chose five needy children to attend the party. In Dumaria, Banka district, eastern Bihar, the ADP supports local churches by running leadership-training courses for pastors and church leaders.

Exploitation certainly, and verging on the obscene.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #177 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Why?

Would you 'wait and see how it turns out' if Al Qaeda want to enforce shari'a law in your back yard?

Maybe before they enforce it and while they blow up a few malls you could be 'waiting to see..'

And btw, this argument IS as simple as that.

Umm, no. Not really. You went to a whole other place there.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #178 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Just as an FYI - the major player in the relief op World Vision:

Many Don't Know of World Vision's Evangelical Mission



And:

The truth about World Vision



Exploitation certainly, and verging on the obscene.

Hamsa.org?

http://hamsa.org/contact.htm

Quote:
The author's experience of these institutions helped turn him against all monolithic creeds and he came to India in 1967 in search of spiritual direction, choosing India because it gave an honourable place to the Goddess and because it had the only great pagan civilization to have successfully survived centuries of repressive Islamic and Christian imperialism. He is a great lover of Hindu culture and religion and holds the view that although the sannyasi stands outside of society he does not stand above Hinduism that is Sanatana Dharma. He says that as long as Christianity wages an ideological war on Hinduism its curious theories and unique claims must be thoroughly investigated and vigorously replied to by informed Hindus of integrity and conviction.

Anti Christian sentiment noted? \
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #179 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Hamsa.org?

http://hamsa.org/contact.htm

Anti Christian sentiment noted? \

Sounds spot-on to me....
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
post #180 of 204
Bla bla bla bla bla...

Does Buddhism have a mechanism for redemption or does it not. If it does not, Then Brit Hume was correct. It's a simple question really, Any Buddhists out there care to inform? I also do not here any Buddhists complaining. Just anti Christian atheists. Why is that? Why is it the Atheists only complain about Christian hypocrisy? Why don't you here them complain about Tiger Woods Buddhist hypocrisy? Why do Atheists only hate Christianity? I think the answer is simply projected guilt.
post #181 of 204
Hello!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

It works if you can communicate directly with the creator of the game to know what the truth is.

Is that the same direct line of communications that dubya had when God was telling him that Saddam had WMD and God said where they were and God said what they looked like?


Oh look willys' been banninated! where???
[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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post #182 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post

Bla bla bla bla bla...

Does Buddhism have a mechanism for redemption or does it not. If it does not, Then Brit Hume was correct. It's a simple question really, Any Buddhists out there care to inform? I also do not here any Buddhists complaining. Just anti Christian atheists. Why is that? Why is it the Atheists only complain about Christian hypocrisy? Why don't you here them complain about Tiger Woods Buddhist hypocrisy? Why do Atheists only hate Christianity? I think the answer is simply projected guilt.

It doesn't make sense...?? Can you elaborate - it's very woolly...

And who are these anti-Christian atheists?

I've only noticed one atheist here and he doesn't seem particularly anti-Christian. Others seem to be pointing out some rampant hypocrisy and bs but there's a lot to point to.

I guess Doctors are anti-disease too.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #183 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Anti "Charlatan-Masquerading-As-Christian", more like. If you are so knowledgeable about Christianity, do please inform the world as to which of JC's teachings encompass greed, corruption, elitism, militarism, empire-building, and the promotion of the idea that it's right to take from the poor to enrich the wealthy.

Brit Hume was expressing his opinion that Christianity could help Tiger. Your post didn't take issue with someone "pretending" to be a Christian. It took issue with Christianity itself.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #184 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Brit Hume was expressing his opinion that Christianity could help Tiger. Your post didn't take issue with someone "pretending" to be a Christian. It took issue with Christianity itself.

Rightly so...why should Christianity get a free pass.

If someone had said Satanism, National Socialism or, worse, Islam, could have helped Tiger then no-one 9well, not you anyway) would complain because these things are held to be self-evidently 'bad' and Xianity 'good'.

It's time we took the lid off this. There was only one Christian and he got nailed to a cross by exactly the sort of people who are now besmirching his name. Let them have the name then...but let's not pretend that it 'helps' people...

It's much more likely that it is the last refuge of those who have gone beyond help and who are victims of the very society Xianity created and maintains and who just can't take it any more and give up.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #185 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Sounds spot-on to me....

Sounds like bigotry to me...

I don't think at this point I can add anything more to this thread that will make any difference to the conversation. Have a great time...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #186 of 204
You miss the whole point of "Christianity". Thereis NO religion that esposes that all of it's members are without flaws. Is your point that because some Christians are bad ALL Christians are bad? Do all buddists cheat on their wives because Tiger Woods did? Are all Muslims killers because some are?If so, that's very shallow thinking on your part.
post #187 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post

You miss the whole point of "Christianity". Thereis NO religion that esposes that all of it's members are without flaws. Is your point that because some Christians are bad ALL Christians are bad? Do all buddists cheat on their wives because Tiger Woods did? Are all Muslims killers because some are?If so, that's very shallow thinking on your part.

My point is that 'Christianity' - just like Islam, Buddhism or any philosophy or discipline - is an ideology and NOT the people.

The people try to LIVE UP TO the ideology. Or should do.

In Christianity's case, it has turned around so the ideology does not really matter and what matters is the name - if someone is 'a Christian' then they are in effect in a club and to be defended by other's in the club. At least till they go too far.

All I'm saying is that if it got back to being based on the ideology then more 'Christians' would try to live up to Christ, less 'Christians' would misbehave and they would call out the bad apples instead of defending them.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #188 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

My point is that 'Christianity' - just like Islam, Buddhism or any philosophy or discipline - is an ideology and NOT the people.

The people try to LIVE UP TO the ideology. Or should do.

In Christianity's case, it has turned around so the ideology does not really matter and what matters is the name - if someone is 'a Christian' then they are in effect in a club and to be defended by other's in the club. At least till they go too far.

All I'm saying is that if it got back to being based on the ideology then more 'Christians' would try to live up to Christ, less 'Christians' would misbehave and they would call out the bad apples instead of defending them.

When anyone who calls himself a Christian is made out to be a "bad apple", that's going too far.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #189 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

When anyone who calls himself a Christian is made out to be a "bad apple", that's going too far.

Why?

Ever heard of 'by their fruits you shall know them' ?

I know fruits and I know when they have worms in. It's not nice for anyone to have a worm in their apple but pesticide works far better than denying worms exist...
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #190 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Why?

Ever heard of 'by their fruits you shall know them' ?

I know fruits and I know when they have worms in. It's not nice for anyone to have a worm in their apple but pesticide works far better than denying worms exist...

You're not denying that you single out all Christians as "bad apples"?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #191 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

You're not denying that you single out all Christians as "bad apples"?

It depends on your definition of Christianity.

I have met several people who called themselves Christians who were 'good apples' and even a few that actually were sincere and attempting to live like Christ.

So from my own definition then there are certainly many 'good apples'.

But from what I read on here my definition of Christianity is not recognized by anybody else - let alone the Christians - so rather than argue the point, as I am in the minority I accept your definition.

And in the light of that......things look a little different.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #192 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It depends on your definition of Christianity.

I have met several people who called themselves Christians who were 'good apples' and even a few that actually were sincere and attempting to live like Christ.

So from my own definition then there are certainly many 'good apples'.

But from what I read on here my definition of Christianity is not recognized by anybody else - let alone the Christians - so rather than argue the point, as I am in the minority I accept your definition.

And in the light of that......things look a little different.

Thank you for answering my question. It's good to know where you stand.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #193 of 204
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post

You miss the whole point of "Christianity". Thereis NO religion that esposes that all of it's members are without flaws. Is your point that because some Christians are bad ALL Christians are bad? Do all buddists cheat on their wives because Tiger Woods did? Are all Muslims killers because some are?If so, that's very shallow thinking on your part.

Some such ideas have been taken up by government and media to the extent they represent the predominant public "perception". Just look at the depiction of Muslims by the US cprporate media: if they're not already terrorists by the time they're 14, they will be soon.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #194 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Some such ideas have been taken up by government and media to the extent they represent the predominant public "perception". Just look at the depiction of Muslims by the US cprporate media: if they're not already terrorists by the time they're 14, they will be soon.

And if not then the West will make sure they have no option but to become such in one way or another - then they can say 'see - we told you so'.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #195 of 204
Thread Starter 
Bush, Clinton and Obama team up in an effort to raise funds for Haiti. See link here

This looks for real, but what is the real intent here?

* Why the sudden concern by the US elite, on both sides of the poltical aisle,. for a bunch of people in one of the poorest nations on Earth, who contribute NOTHING to the bottom lines of big business?
* Is the US (financial and military) involvement more to do with maintaining order and the continuity of a government which was the result of a US aided coup d'état in 2004?
* Is this a PR exercise, taken up by both major parties, and the establishment in general, to make it appear that the powers-that-be in the U.S. have an element of humanity, especially after the last 10 years of infamy?
* The ordinary American *PEOPLE*, on the other hand, have a long history of extraordinary generosity and concern when it comes down to disaster response. Look at the $billions collected in the wake of 9/11, Hurricane Katrina, the SE Asian Tsunami and more.

Ordinary people act out of their own concern for our fellow humans, no matter their what religious/ethnic/national etc backgrounds. Governments, on the other hand, play on peoples' emotions, and at times like this, out comes the emotional blackmail card.

If, for the sake of a thought experiment, an earthquake leveled the Iranian capital Tehran killing 10s of thousands, you can bet your ass that the American people would step up to the plate and donate $Billions in aid (yet again) even though Iran/Iranians have been officially designated as "evil" by our media and members of a prior administration. There would also be a similar exercise in PR-mongering by the administration, while behind the scenes, a sizable portion of influential DC policy makers and think tanks would be High Fiving and laughing like drains.

Cynical, harsh reality, or both?
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
Reply
post #196 of 204
segovius, if you haven't yet done so (or haven't in a while), I suggest reading the book Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis.

I'm reading it now for the first time and it's quite good. Seems to resonate with what we've been discussing here.

Full online text and audio at the link above.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #197 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

It depends on your definition of Christianity.

I have met several people who called themselves Christians who were 'good apples' and even a few that actually were sincere and attempting to live like Christ.

So from my own definition then there are certainly many 'good apples'.

Good to hear.

Quote:
But from what I read on here my definition of Christianity is not recognized by anybody else - let alone the Christians - so rather than argue the point, as I am in the minority I accept your definition.

And in the light of that......things look a little different.

Your definition of Christianity appears to be: People who follow the teachings of and live a life that mirrors (as closely as possible) that of Christ. Correct?

And to go a step further, the divergence I think you are speaking of is one of the definitions pronounced by Christians: A Christian is someone who accepts Christ as their savior, that he died on the cross for their sins, and will be saved through grace. (The issue being, nowhere do they state they have to change.) Again, Correct? (Or getting close anyhow?)
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #198 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Your definition of Christianity appears to be: People who follow the teachings of and live a life that mirrors (as closely as possible) that of Christ. Correct?

Well, I would make a distinction between what is now known as Christianity and the teaching of Jesus Christ.

In fact the two are different things - and personally I would not accept the later Pauline accretions.

Quote:
And to go a step further, the divergence I think you are speaking of is one of the definitions pronounced by Christians: A Christian is someone who accepts Christ as their savior, that he died on the cross for their sins, and will be saved through grace. (The issue being, nowhere do they state they have to change.) Again, Correct? (Or getting close anyhow?)

[/quote]

That view of salvation I would hold as Pauline and I don't subscribe to it - but assuming for argument's sake that it is or could be in line with Jesus' teaching then I still would argue there is a divergence between this teaching and Christianity...

I'd suggest that the state referred to as being 'born again' is not merely an acceptance of a belief system but actually intended as being meant to be understood literally.

For example:

Mr Smith likes to commit Sin X. He has urges to do so. He becomes 'born again' in the sense we are discussing. He no longer has these urges and is a different person entirely in this regard with a new nature.

Mr Jones likes also to commit Sin X. He also has urges to do so. He becomes 'a Christian' (as opposed to Mr Smith's 'born again'). He also no longer commits Sin X - but he still has urges to do so all the time which he must fight his nature has not changed at all but his belief system has.

You can easily tell these two types - type 1 is very rare imo - in all religions. The Mr Jones type is the type that has to preach about sin and temptation all the time and run around trying to stop people doing things.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
Reply
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #199 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Mr Smith likes to commit Sin X. He has urges to do so. He becomes 'born again' in the sense we are discussing. He no longer has these urges and is a different person entirely in this regard with a new nature.

So you believe that becoming Born Again is supposed to instantly confer on someone a new nature and remove all sinful urges?
Forget Paul, that doesn't even square with what Jesus taught.

"And he said to his disciples, “Temptations to sin are sure to come..." Luke 17:1 (ESV)

Where in Jesus' teachings could you possibly find support for that?

Was Jesus himself not tempted?
Which disciples of Jesus ever reported being immune from sinful urges because of their faith?
The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #200 of 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by segovius View Post

Rightly so...why should Christianity get a free pass.

If someone had said Satanism, National Socialism or, worse, Islam, could have helped Tiger then no-one 9well, not you anyway) would complain because these things are held to be self-evidently 'bad' and Xianity 'good'.

You're equating Christianity with National Socialism and Satanism? I don't think most people would find that reasonable. I know I don't. Christian principles, whether some adhere to them or not, don't have much in common with these belief systems.

As for Islam, that is simply another religion. It's certainly not akin to Satanism (etc)...no more than Christianity is. Of course, there is a certain sect that calls for violent extremism in God's name. But that's one small part. If Brit Hum was Muslim and he wanted to suggest Tiger convert to Islam to save himself, fine. But he's not, so it's so surprise.

Quote:

It's time we took the lid off this. There was only one Christian and he got nailed to a cross by exactly the sort of people who are now besmirching his name. Let them have the name then...but let's not pretend that it 'helps' people...

Who exactly is "besmirching" his name? And are you indicting ALL Christians as frauds? It certainly seems like it.

Quote:

It's much more likely that it is the last refuge of those who have gone beyond help and who are victims of the very society Xianity created and maintains and who just can't take it any more and give up.

You are clearly ignorant of what the vast majority of Christians believe. While there are certainly those who don't meet Christian principles, there are many that live their lives according to those principles every day. I've known many devout Christians. I don't like all of them, but the majority are great people of faith.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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