Brit Hume: Completely Clueless, as usual. - Page 3

I said nothing of Pat Robertson.

Why can't you guys just throw Pat Robertson under the bus? Concede a point or two and maybe the other side won't be so frustrated all the time. What he said was absolutely despicable.

And this branches out to a larger issue. When I hear a liberal talking out of his ass and deliberately distorting the truth or flat out lying, I'll call him on it. It makes me sick when people who agree with me do stupid things that might make people ignore the message because they don't like the messenger. Yet, I see so few conservatives out there who will do the same. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, and Mark Levin are manipulative, divisive jerkbags who do nothing but harm America by escalating the conflict between the parties to make a quick buck. Conservatives need to divorce themselves from these nutjobs. And if they would, publicly mind you, you'd probably get a lot more cooperation and sympathy.

Never. Christians don't throw Christians under buses. That sounds more like an 'other side' thing.

"I agree, Pat Robertson said a terrible thing. He should be ashamed of himself." Yeah, that's just too fucking much to ask for. Instead, it's *whine, cry, bitch, moan* anti-christian waaaah. It's more like anti-callous-asshole-spreading-hate-but-claiming-to-be-more-righteous-than-thou.

This 'frustration' you speak of has obviously impacted your sense of humour.

Apparently. I'm tired after working all day. Of course, if you have to pick a group that tends to lack a sense of humor and march in lockstep, it isn't mine :P. So, uhh, my bad.

For the record, Haiti has had a serious problem with witchcraft for a long time, and it's folly to dismiss the social problems that accompany that, any more than one would dismiss the impact on India's poverty problem by the designation of an "untouchable" class within Hinduism.

That said, Christian mission groups have been working on both the spiritual and humanitarian needs in Haiti for a long time, and it was unfortunate to ascribe this earthquake solely to one element of Haiti's history. Particularly at a time when the dead are still lying in the streets.

I haven't studied Haiti's history indepth and don't know whether the episode Robertson described is historical truth.

What I do know is that I have personally received emails from no less than 15 Christian organizations that are dispatching aid and relief supplies within hours, and it seemed like my FaceBook page just exploded with people and organizations ready to go, or acting on behalf of others. This Sunday morning will likely see a humanitarian armada raised that dwarfs anything in the non-Christian realm. (Many people aren't aware that a lot of the government pledges to disasters like these are channelled through Christian NGOs.)

Problem is, people like Sammi never see that side.

Witchcraft = any belief system not Christian and therefore Evil

Humanitarian Aid = cover for prosletysing, witnessing and attempted conversion

To be fair, the Christian realm (unfortunately, in my eyes, sorry) dwarfs the non-Christian one in the United States. And I never said that Christians could never do good things. There are plenty that do. There are just those others that do terrible things and try to legislate their religious way of life for the whole country to follow. Lately, I hear a lot from Christians, among others, that moderate Muslims need to do more to separate themselves from the radical ones. Well, that should also apply to the Christians, too.

You want to know how to make Sammi and others see that side? Here's your response:

"Ya, Pat Robertson is a real twat. Fuck that guy, he doesn't represent me. Anyway, folks, if you want to help out the disaster relief, you can make a donation to <blah blah Christian charity dispatching help>."

Is it aid freely given if it comes with a sermon? Or does that count as strings attached? Is it really altruistic? Of course Frank et al won't like this line of discussion, but I actually think these are fair questions to consider.

One other thing they could do re not just Roberston but ALL Xianity: separate the religion from right-wing ideology. They are synonymous in the US.

This is not the case with any other religion - religion should be apolitical imo.

Stop projecting how your own mind thinks. Both statements are lies.

Everyone understands that any number of non-Christian religions in the world are denied as truth but not labelled Witchcraft.

Regarding aid, Christians do not offer disaster and poverty relief to entice conversion. Those that convert to Christianity for economic reasons cause more problems for local churches abroad than any other group.

Christians do it because the founder of Christianity told us to do it.

Jesus was the Flamingest of the Flaming Liberals. Oh the irony. Delicious.

If he told you to jump off a bridge, would you? Sorry, couldn't resist.

Also, seems like he commanded this:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and
pray for them which despitefully use you, and
persecute you;

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is
in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil
and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on
the unjust."

(Matthew 5:43-45 KJV)

Oooops, seems like most of the vocal right wing christian nuts forgot to obey jesus here. I could find plenty of other commandments that are disregarded. Pick and choose, pick and choose. Christianity should be renamed Convenientanity.

Witchcraft =
but you were close.

Do they? Maybe they don't know so much about Fundamentalist Xianity then if so.

Fundies may not label other religions witchcraft but I can guarantee you two things - and I know this for a fact about Robertson seeing as we're talking about him;

1. No other religion whatsoever is regarded as valid (with the exception of Judaism which is regarded as valid but having 'gone wrong' in not accepting Christ).

2. All of these are held to be inspired by Satan in exactly the same way Witchcraft is. In many cases - more esoteric religions or movements - then they are held to be 'of the Occult'.


Not so.

The alleged injunction to 'spread the Gospel to all corners of the world' is held to be a prerequisite for Christ's return and to hasten it by many Fundies.

It is a prime motivation.

Which is why you do not see equal effort and aid put into home disasters or ones in Western Xian countries. That would make a good side by side analysis actually - the breakdown of those two figures.

And, since we are on the topic of natural disasters, I think it's time that I quote from my own holy scripture:

God's Love by Bad Religion

Striking at mental apparitions
Like a drunk on a vacant street,
Silently beset by the hands of time,
Indelicate in its fury.
An aberrant "crack" as skeletons yield
To unrelenting gravity
While viruses prowl for helpless victims
Who succumb rapidly.

Tell me! Tell me where is the love
In a careless creation?
When there’s no above
There’s no justice,
Just a cause and a cure
And a bounty of suffering
It seems we all endure.
And what I’m frightened of
Is that they call it God’s love.

Twisted torment, make believe
There’s a truth and we all submit
Believe my eyes my brain replies
To all that they interpret.

Tell me! Tell me where is the love
In a careless creation?
When there’s no above
There’s no justice,
Just a cause and a cure
And a bounty of suffering
It seems we all endure.
And what I’m frightened of
Is that they call it God’s love.

I know there’s no reason for alarm,
But who needs perspective
When it comes to pain and harm?
We can change our minds,
There’s a better prize,
But first you’ve got to...

Tell me! Tell me where is the love
In a careless creation?
When there’s no above
There’s no justice,
Just a cause and a cure
And a bounty of suffering
It seems we all endure.
And what I’m frightened of
Is that they call it God’s love.
My pain is God's love.

I don't live in the United States. And I would bet dollars to donuts that Evangelical Christians in Canada (only 14% of the population in Canada) will punch way above their weight when the final numbers are counted.


Well for one thing, I don't use profanity. It's nothing but pollution of the mind.

I also don't fault Pat Robertson for looking at the spiritual implications behind a significant news event (it's what he's paid for) I simply didn't think he expressed it properly or completely or in a thoughtful enough way. Robertson, love him or hate him, does work in the missions world. Everyone in the missions world is acquainted with the problems in Haiti. Many are extremely frustrated.


As I mentioned above, this line of thinking is only floated by Liberals because their worldview can't fathom doing such painful work without an ulterior motive. Liberals hijack school systems for their union friends and to promote their pet social causes. If they spent their time opening soup kitchens, they'd require attendees to listen to speeches on universal health care.

Read that Globe and Mail story I linked to and tell me that woman was motivated by building numbers at some church to which she belonged.

If anyone does want to help, I'm sure most major papers will have links to World Vision, The Salvation Army, Samaritan's Purse, World Relief, CRWRC and others.

Ok, I gotta raise a middle finger to you here for a moment because you just said "liberals can't fathom doing painful work without an ulterior motive." I am in Eagle Scout. I give my time to the community and in service to others freely, and with no dumbass god breathing down my neck telling me to. So do plenty of others. Your accusations are just absurd.


Ya, you're just showing your amazing depths of bigotry in this statement. Now it's preserved for everyone to see what a raging hypocrite you are.

And universal healthcare is one of the most Jesusy social policies you can think of. *facepalm*

JESUS WAS A LIBERAL!


You may not use profanity, but what you just said was quite profane. More sad, sad irony.

So let me understand this. Since you are a good citizen and a liberal that Invalidates his entire statement and makes him a bigot. But the reverse is not true for you or your arguments?

I wasn't making blanket statements about all Christians. I conceded there were many good Christians out there. Also, Jesus was a liberal and Frank's words were more profane than any profanity he refuses to utter.

Well yeah. Except for the fact that he never found occasion to disagree with the prohibitions against sex outside Biblical Marriage, told a Samaritan woman her whole religion didn't even know the right God, said that poverty could never be ended under human government, said that His was the only way to Heaven and commanded His followers to convert everyone they could on the planet.

Of course, Sego will respond with the pathetic, predictable attempt to undermine the reliability of the Biblical record, but your quote above seems to accept the Bible as a historical record of Jesus.


Yes. [Sorry, couldn't resist answering.]


I admit all of us have been hypocritical within Christianity at some time or another. It is impossible to find Christian hypocrites outside Christianity. That said, please let me know precisely what aspects of this scripture you think have been breached. Christians go outside their comfort zone all the time. Just this week, Joel Osteen [whose theology is not my cup of tea] prayed for Houston's new lesbian mayor because of the biblical mandate to pray for our leaders.


Lame. That scripture, as far as I can tell, has been fulfilled. Turn on the TV in any country on the planet.
The scripture does not say that every single person was to be reached with the Gospel (and we all know that's not the case.)

The same idiots who claim the "fundies" want this to bring Christ's return also claim we align with Israel solely to convert the Jews [to hasten the Return.]
You guys need to update your talking points.


Abject nonsense.

Actually, more of a blatant lie. I personally know people who are going to do missions work in Galveston, Texas next week, long after it's faded from the news. Plenty of Christian groups are currently active in New Orleans, including Canadian ones. It goes without saying that poverty-stricken countries get more humanitarian assistance but going to any of the groups I listed earlier will dispel the idea they only work abroad.


Okay, I went inflammatory with my terminology for fun, but it's good to see sometimes what yours (and Sammi's) rhetoric sounds like across the aisle.

Obviously there are non-Christian groups that do good work (Doctors without Borders etc.) But I stand by the assertion that Christian groups do far more per capita than the vocal atheists and agnostics that continually criticize them.

I don't see how that can be denied. A famous (and non-Christian) reporter here for the CBC remarked recently that he'd never been to a trouble spot in the world where there wasn't already a Christian group on the ground at work.

You can't dismiss the sheer volume of humanitarian assistance rendered by Christians simply by saying America is mostly devoutly Christian (it isn't) and Christians do it for the recruits (we don't) or that others do it just as much (doesn't happen.)

I am thankful that you and others give of your time and talent to help the less fortunate. But there is a marked difference between the number of Christians and non-Christians who will rent their house, take a leave of absence and head to Africa or India for two years.

And I simply have to boast about that.

And even though I vehemently disagree with your worldview...In so many ways...

In So Many Ways by Bad Religion

I can see the shadows on the wall
Drifting as the leaves start to fall.
Unfazed by rugosity, the objects yield to gravity
And depict the destiny of us all.

No one really knows why we die.
No one gets a break so we try.
Ignoring mortality, we worship mediocrity
And wait to see what happens up on high.

In so many ways we live to follow the sun,
In so many ways we exalt and fail as one.
In so many ways we want so bad to be done,
In so many ways we show our pain in unison.

Something in you is busy counting the days,
Catapulting you through the haze.
Blind to virtuosity, ignorant of your sanctity,
Revealing you, in so many ways.

In so many ways we live to follow the sun,
In so many ways we tend to rise and fall as one.
In so many ways we want so bad to be done,
In so many ways we show our pain in unison.

Re profanity: Interestingly there is a passage in the Gospels where Jesus insults the Pharisees and is generally translated in English as 'bunch of hypocrites' or some such.

Actually the real translation in the vernacular would be 'pile of shit' or 'crap' if you prefer.

regardless of whether one thinks the Bible has been adjusted or not it is nevertheless a fact that any believer who accepts that the Bible is literally the world of God and derives their belief-system from it is not really doing so at all - they are really believing the translation is the authoratative 'Holy' benchmark.

Nope. I'm just making it easy to converse by momentarily saying "ok fine, even if your fairy tales were true, your conservative savior in american flag underoos really isn't the heartless twat that you all pretend he is."




God Hates Fags, for one. Yay for Joel Osteen. And double yay if she didn't include in that prayer something about hoping the mayor is saved despite her being an abomination.

You flip on conservative talk radio or TV and you'll see a bunch of self-proclaimed Christians spouting the most venomous hate toward Liberals. Hell, it happens on these boards every day. That's what I'm talking about.



Except that isn't my rhetoric. You want it to be? I hope every Christian loses his faith tomorrow. I think the world will be a better place for it. I hope that mankind drops the shackles of religion and actually progresses into the 21st century and out toward the stars as one people, no longer divided by tribal supernatural bigotry. No matter how much good you do, if you perpetuate the abominable machinations of tyranny that is organized religion, that evil you have done can never be outweighed in your lifetime. You and your kind are a plague upon this world and I so long for the days we can all discuss Jesus and Yahweh in the same breath as Zeus, Mithras, Odin, Oester, and all the other gods we have shed in our past.

Choke on that.

See, I don't think you want me mimicking your rhetoric. You won't like what you hear. Of course, I really do believe pretty much all that I said, but it really isn't all that nice to say so I usually keep much of it to myself.

Actually I believe the translation you are looking for is "whitewashed tombs".

Whited sepulchres yes...there are other instances where he insults Herod too.

So, why is it wrong to use profanity? Surely the injunction is against blasphemy anyway?

This may seem slightly ot but actually it is not; Xianity has grown a lot of accretions that are nothing to do with the original idea and worse, are held to be HOLY WRIT...this is approaching blasphemy imo if there is a God.

I think Xians need saving from this. They should repent before it's too late.

We're not the ones doing the pretending. Jesus' teaching defies classification as left or right, but on moral issues it's far closer to modern conservative than liberal ideology.


Calling those crazies Christian is like calling NAMBLA a Democratic Party adjunct.

Politics has become bitterly contested lately, but I'd counter that far more of the venom is parroted by New Atheist disciples and others on the left.

Slowly but surely, the prime advocates of abortion are losing the demographic war and your side knows it. It's obvious that this was going to happen (math is neither left nor right) but the reason talk radio and Christians (which liberals claim not to listen to) offend you so much is that lefties feel they are slowly losing a grip on power that they've have for a long time.

And for advocating the murder of millions of children out of sheer convenience, it serves them right.



I see little surprising in that quote. It's pretty standard discourse now when conversing with an atheist.

I'm headed off-board. Will answer replies tomorrow.

Yeah, I'm the one advocating we share our resources so no one goes hungry, without shelter, without medical care, and without general police and fire protection and somehow I end up being the bad guy in all of this. And I don't have a god compelling me to feel this way.

Every Christian who doesn't believe the same is a selfish, hypocritical prick.

Heartless how?

Honesty of your position makes it easier to know where you are coming from. I don't mind your opinions regarding religion. Or even regarding Jesus, Yaweh or any other name for God you wish to bring up. My inner child will not cry, much. But I will take time to correct anything I disagree with or take issue with a point if I think it is unfairly presented. Your view here is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

And about the previous post, I think I was partially crossing your posts with Segovius. My apologies, you did make the effort to say there were good Christians.

How? You'll need to back that up...it seems a delusional statement put perhaps you can provide some coherent argument and examples so let's hold off judgement for now...


And yet, the extremists in other religions are taken as representative proof of that religion's falseness.

The rule seems to be:

In Xianity extremists are crazies who don't get it.

In other religions extremists are true believers who do get it.


What has politics got to do with religion?

As I said above - you need to junk it. Where did Christ ever say his mission was political?


What's abortion got to do with it? This seems a fundie obsession but not sure exactly why....


Question: would it be ok if not done 'out of convenience' ?

Is it the killing that is wrong? Or the killing children? I think any position other than 'all killing is wrong' would be irrational with in a Xian framework.


Seems mild compared to some things I've heard. I can recall being called 'sinner' and 'evil' and various other things in my time.

It wasn't always in anger...sometimes the implication and tone is compassionate, like I have a disease and need to be helped - but that is all the more insulting isn't it really?

And wasn't much of what is included in the Bible actually supposedly spoken long before writing systems existed, so it was all passed down by word of mouth, then repeatedly transcribed by hand and possibly not perfectly or accurately done?

Anybody hear a family story passed down through the generations? It evolves; even within the same generation, it is influenced by the person telling it and upon who they heard it from.

Wasn't the work of some "Christians" recently in the news about possibly influencing an African nation to actually enact a law that would give homosexuals the death penalty?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/wo.../04uganda.html

These people, like Pat, need to be called on their actions.

Yes, some Old Testament stories were an oral tradition which was later transcribed...the flood for example.

In other cases there is clear textual evidence that two different authors' works were combined into one. The two differing (and contradictory) creation stories in Genesis are a classic example as are the two different versions of the Ten Commandments.

Yes, there is a very wide ranging effort by Fundie Xians to target believers of other religions - it has even be called Christian Jihad


The Xian obsession with 'converting' people seems to violate freedom of speech and all basic moral laws.

In a free society then I choose my belief and you choose yours. For one of us to try to change the other's belief because they believe it to be wrong is actually immoral. And to prey on others in third world or underdeveloped countries who belong to a different culture is bordering on a crime imo.

The Haitian ambassador to the US was on Maddow's show and responded to dear Pat's comments.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908...51879#34851879

Some of the posters in this thread have no shame, hence they vote repub.

"One of the world's most influential scientists has warned that climate change could devastate Africa, predicting an increase in catastrophic food shortages. Conway predicts hunger on the continent could increase dramatically in the short term as droughts and desertification increase, and climate change affects water supplies. "Projected reductions in crop yields could be as much as 50% by 2020 and 90% by 2100," the paper says."
~ http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...-gordon-conway

The list of crimes that both dems and repubs have committed is too long to list. To attribute their actions in any way as being influenced by Jesus is evil itself personified.

As far as humanitarian aid is concerned, we help because we can and because we believe we have a moral obligation to do so.

Here is what we are doing for Haiti now.

Here are some things we have done for Haiti in the past.

As you can see, we do not do it alone. We partner with many other charitable organizations and render aid to any who need it, regardless of religion.