French foreign minister speaks out

France = Irrelevant

It's a shame that the US media is so US-centric and doesn't react to important signs and signals like Hubert Vedrine's speech. But it's even more of a shame that this simplistic president's "simplistic" foreign policy is going to bring this (arguably) great country a lot of problems in the long run.

What a shame! (Both the narrowminded US media and the narrowminded US president.) Wish I could vote in this country.

Escher
(US resident, French citizen)

When ever I think of french politicians I think of that Simpsons episode where Mayor Quimby calls them all frogs and the French president gets all pissed and sends a nuke over his way. It was a Halloween special I believe.

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

That explains your attitude towards my #2 question but why is the french foreign minister relevant when he speaks about Israel but not when he say something about US-french relations?</strong><hr></blockquote>

France = Irrelevant all the time

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>

Funny because it seems like they are only irrelevant to CNN when their foreign minister is talking about USA and not when its about a a third country :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't run CNN so I couldn't say. It seems CNN can be a little slow to pick up on stories that are not "beaking news". Besides it's not news when a European leader bitches about the US. See if it comes up in the NYT.

But anyway what the **** does france care? They wont do any of the fighting. They wont solve any of the problems. They wont suffer any major impact due to any of it.

France = Irrelevant

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>

It would be difficult to find a more worthless country than France. What exactly do they stand for? They are cowards, anti-semites, anti-American, anti-everything that isn't frog.

The French Diplomat to England called Israel a shitty little country. He still has his job. Some diplomat.

France wastes little time putting down the US yet whines like a schoolgirl for our help anytime a problem arises.

France allowed Arab terrrists to go unabated through France in the seventies as long as they promised not to attack French targets. Biggest bunch of pussies in the world.

France as an ally? Better off without them.............

the short answer is that it does not fit AOL-Time-Warner-Turner-Disney-MSNBC-Ziff-Davis' agenda. ergo it does not 'make' the news.

And while I love scott's rash answers, I can assure him that the french foreign minister is not aone in his views. Many Americans, in fact, feel the same way.The educated ones, mostly...

Don't feel bad, Escher. I'm on your side (je suis moi aussi de nationalite francaise ).

I won't go into the whole debate about France being "worthless". As someone who grew up in France and now resides in the U.S., I have a different perspective on America. As much as I love it here (in sunny California :cool: ), there are things that I wish were different.
Yes, America is a great country, but it's not the center of the world.

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: lolo ]</p>

Anders said:
Speaking about it: Anyone seen the front page of CNN.com today? About the man who placed a huge fan on each shoulder to be able to fly? That is importent for people to know about.

Holy merde! I missed that?! That's fantastique! Seriously that is cool as hell.

[quote]Originally posted by stimuli:
<strong>And while I love scott's rash answers, I can assure him that the french foreign minister is not aone in his views. Many Americans, in fact, feel the same way.The educated ones, mostly... </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well when the countries we need start bitching then we'll listen. We stopped listening to the liberal elite in this country when the blamed the US for 9-11.

crickets cherp

[quote]Well when the countries we need start bitching then we'll listen. <hr></blockquote>

First of all pull you head out of your Ass, America, as lolo put it, is not the center of the world!
Second, have a little respect for the French, after all with out them America could have lost the war of indepenence and the US would still be under British rule.

To get away from all the assertions about France for a moment, and back to the first post:

it is perhaps hard for Europeans to see that what is news for them is not necessarily news here. While French attitudes towards the US war effort may very well be known "inside the Beltway" (i.e., in Washington DC), for the rest of the country these opinions are difficult to present as newsworthy.

After all, from an American perspective there are opinions coming from China, England, France, Germany, Brazil, Israel, Japan, etc...and the media does not report on each of these.

Personally I'd like to see more of this kind of news, but I'm not in CNN's target demographic. Neither are you, Anders. But Scott_H might be.

hey hey hey...

let's chill on the french bashing...


remember that the person with his finger on the trigger is half-french *cough cough*

Jonathan "benmoijesuisunpeutfrancais!"

Whoah whoah where all the French bashing come from?

[quote]It would be difficult to find a more worthless country than France. What exactly do they stand for? They are cowards, anti-semites, anti-American, anti-everything that isn't frog.<hr></blockquote>
The ignorance of this post is astounding. Its amazing how you generalize an entire population as cowards, anit-semites, and anit-American. You are almost as ignorant as the bastards responsible for 9/11. To call France a nation of cowards is a gross misjustice. Need I remind you of the French resistance durring WWII? Thousands of resistors where tortured and killed in the pursuit of the freedom for their country. To call them a nation of cowards and against everything except frogs is a slap in the face.
In fact our Independance would not have been possible without the French comming in on our side. You should watch your comments more carefully, and try not to give us a bad name.

1.) CNN has very different priorities in news than BBC. Its possible that CNN only decided to add this to its news ticker, and/or speak about it shortly than write a story on it.

2.)To be frank it really dosnt matter to the Bush administration that other countries react like this. They will do what they think is best for this country. Not you, not Denmark, not Sweden, not Cananda, not France. Only America. This can actualy be very good in some cases. And in others bad.
But the fact remains that while it would be nice that these countries aprove of what the Administration in doing, it really dosnt matter. Becuase America can do what it wants without the help of any country (for better or for worse).

As far this French person's view on American foreign policy im not so sure I agree with him. I dont like Bush all that much, and thought his state of the union address was stupid. But to call the United State's foreign policy single minded is un-true. Yes fighting Terrorism is now the cheif priority, but is far from the only one. The reason that I think this country has taken to fighting terrorism so heartily is of course 9/11, but also the fact that it seems like a fight that is worth fighting. A fight that has somesort of ending to it. And a fight that will really make a difference in the world.

I just gave a speech on French/English relations, why wasn't that on CNN?

And Scott is right, France is irrelevant, hasn't been relevant to the world stage in over 50 years.

I'm not saying they shouldn't speak as they see fit, I just don't see why anyone should care.

And furthermore,
America IS the center of the world, haven't you been paying attention?

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by skip_112:
<strong>

First of all pull you head out of your Ass, America, as lolo put it, is not the center of the world!</strong><hr></blockquote>

When did I say that? :confused: Pull your head out of you own ass and realize that France is useless. We DO NOT need them for anything at all. And they don't like it.

[quote]Originally posted by skip_112:
<strong>Second, have a little respect for the French, after all with out them America could have lost the war of indepenence and the US would still be under British rule.</strong><hr></blockquote>


We paid them back for that several times over alreay.

France's real embarrassment is that they are cozy with the numb nuts that run Iran. France has not lifted one finger to make life better for the people of Iran. That's why they are so huffy. Their foreign policy is a total failure and Bush called them on it.

Now go sit in the corner France. We'll call you when we need you or you get a spine. Don't wait by the phone though.

If there is one country that is the center of the world, it is the US. Don't kid yourself.

[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>And Powerdoc: What do you think about this? (Vedrine's reaction)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unlike Vedrine i a m not socialist, but i think this man know his job, and in general i share his opinions about foreign policy (in general french people are ok with foreign politic and are divided about internal politic : just the contrary of Israel according to 2 of my friend (who where jew and therefore not ennemies of Israel))

Strange the way that Some AI reacts where there is a different opinion on the outsider Forum : is it an official US president site ? or is it an Apple insider site ?
Many people here complain a lot about Apple products and about Steve Jobs , and i never seen anyone said shut up ! you are all apple's troller a bunch of coward antisemit asshole.

So they should be less overreacting, a forum of discussion where anybody share the same opinion is just ... boring

A couple more thoughts re: "why isn't the French foreign minister's criticisms of the US widely reported in the US?"

1. It is well known that the Bush administration is pursuing a policy of minimal engagement with constrictive foreign treaties and obligations. The rejection of Kyoto and the retreat from the ABM treaty are part of a strategy of maximum flexibility for foreign policy.

2. It is also well known that France has, since the 50s, been interested in being a counter-weight to Anglo-American power and interests. Hence the common market which morphed into the E.U.: a way for France to stay tightly bound to Germany and to dominate the policy issues on the Continent.

Put 1 and 2 together. Bush's policies of "damn the torpedos / full speed ahead" reflect the maximum maneuverability he thinks he needs to accomplish his goals on the world stage. France knows this. Therefore, criticism of this policy publically is probably not meant to "influence" Bush or the US as much as it is meant to be politics for the home audience. Or the European audience. And therefore, such criticism serves to bolster France's own foreign policy objectives: namely, to represent something different than Anglo-American culture.

It's a case where the "foreign" minister is actually preaching to the home choir.

Well it made it to the NYT where the NYT failed to give the full perspective as always. Can't find it on the web site.

Found it

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/07/international/europe/07ALLI.html" target="_blank">French Minister Calls U.S. Policy 'Simplistic'</a>

Anyone who reads NYT has to read SmaterTimes too to see what the NYT left out.

<a href="http://www.smartertimes.com" target="_blank">Smartertimes</a>
[quote]An article in today's New York Times runs under the headline "French Minister Call U.S. Policy Simplistic." The article begins, "PARIS, Feb. 6 -- Frustration with President Bush's worldview burst into the open here today, as Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine openly criticized Washington's approach to terrorism as 'simplistic.'" It's impossible for anyone other than Mr. Vedrine himself to know for sure why he is frustrated, but the betting here is that it has less to do with President Bush's worldview than with the fact that Mr. Vedrine is the foreign minister of a country that has long since passed into America's shadow. Here is Mr. Vedrine talking about France's relationship with America: "No one is easy to get on with in international relations. I don't think we are either. In any event, we don't have that reputation in the United States. . . . There remain serious disagreements which we talk about frankly, amicably." That comment is from an interview Mr. Vedrine gave in 1998 -- during the Clinton administration. The Times article manages to avoid mentioning the fact that Mr. Vedrine was frustrated back then, too. <hr></blockquote>

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by Timo:
<strong>A couple more thoughts re: "why isn't the French foreign minister's criticisms of the US widely reported in the US?"

1. It is well known that the Bush administration is pursuing a policy of minimal engagement with constrictive foreign treaties and obligations. The rejection of Kyoto and the retreat from the ABM treaty are part of a strategy of maximum flexibility for foreign policy.

2. It is also well known that France has, since the 50s, been interested in being a counter-weight to Anglo-American power and interests. Hence the common market which morphed into the E.U.: a way for France to stay tightly bound to Germany and to dominate the policy issues on the Continent.

Put 1 and 2 together. Bush's policies of "damn the torpedos / full speed ahead" reflect the maximum maneuverability he thinks he needs to accomplish his goals on the world stage. France knows this. Therefore, criticism of this policy publically is probably not meant to "influence" Bush or the US as much as it is meant to be politics for the home audience. Or the European audience. And therefore, such criticism serves to bolster France's own foreign policy objectives: namely, to represent something different than Anglo-American culture.

It's a case where the "foreign" minister is actually preaching to the home choir.</strong><hr></blockquote>
interesting quote, but the foreign minister does not only speach for home (europe) even if it's true in a certain way. However , France is not the foreign politic leader of Europe, he is only one of them, As the dear M. Scott says France represant nothing, but Europe is represanting something, but Europe is not the Puppet of France. Are you trying to divide us, Timo :confused: ?

France raises terror war concerns.

PARIS, France -- A senior French government minister has attacked the U.S. approach to fighting terrorism as "simplistic ...

The article can be found at:

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/02/07/france.bush/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/02/07/france.bush/index.html</a>

[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
... but Europe is not the Puppet of France. Are you trying to divide us, Timo :confused: ?<hr></blockquote>

Europe is certainly not the puppet of France. My point only is that France is trying to influence EU-wide feelings on American unilateralism, and that is consistent with what France has been doing since the war.

And I'm not trying to divide...I personally don't much care for American unilateralism. But I also don't much care for the political maneuverings of other countries. I see the foriegn minister's statements as something for internal politcal consumption -- self-serving maneuvering not all that different from Bush, really.

[quote]Originally posted by Timo:
<strong>

Europe is certainly not the puppet of France. My point only is that France is trying to influence EU-wide feelings on American unilateralism, and that is consistent with what France has been doing since the war.

.</strong><hr></blockquote>

France is more involved in the Middle orient than US : we have many islamic people here, and peace is important for our contry own safe, we have also an important and dynamic jew community . France want that both this community leave in peace, that's not exactly the case : they are some violence against jewish people coming from non educated muslim of poor city aera. So France is concerned by the problem , but France does not think that the only answer is the war against terrorism, the war is important but we must add something else.
So in a way you are right, this declaration is home politic, but it's also outside politic, France wish sincerely that the middle east become a land of peace.

U.S. foreigh policy is simplistic? The War on Tearror is anything but. This guy's a foriegn minister. Diplomatic types aren't all that fond of bright lines like the one Bush has drawn when he speaks of the "Axis of Evil". I think that's a large part of what's going on here. And I guess it does have to be admitted that our foriegn policy is a lot simpler than it would be if we felt the need to clear everything with the French. I also agree with Timo about Verdine's comments being for internal consumption. There is a massive number of Algerians living in France now. Everything France does or says about the Near East is complicated by that fact.

To Scott H.:

Sitting in a country next to France, I never felt more European. The terrible thing with American people like you is that they are even unaware of how stupid and ignorant they come across. I assume you've never even been to France. Imagine me bashing all Americans just because I read you're posts or because of American foreign policies during the last 30 years. Where would we end?

[quote]Imagine me bashing all Americans just because I read you're posts or because of American foreign policies during the last 30 years.<hr></blockquote>

It happens all the time. I've had "you ignorant American" thrown at me for as little as saying that I think the EU might be inherently flawed.

It's a common sentiment from a highly xenophobic region. It's kind of like having John Goodman run up to me and start calling me "fatty", somehow I just don't take it seriously.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

It's a common sentiment from a highly xenophobic region. It's kind of like having John Goodman run up to me and start calling me "fatty", somehow I just don't take it seriously.</strong><hr></blockquote>


So we should all relax, then

No I've never been to France. I prefer the Netherlands. Better people.

[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>U.S. foreigh policy is simplistic? The War on Tearror is anything but.

. I also agree with Timo about Verdine's comments being for internal consumption. There is a massive number of Algerians living in France now. Everything France does or says about the Near East is complicated by that fact.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think US foreign policy is simplistic, but the declarations of Georges W.Bush are in a way simplistic when he speak about the axe of evil ,. There is certainly Bad leaders in the case of Iracq and north korea (unfortunately there is a lot of dictator around the world), the case of Iran is more complicated, progressive president (who want to deal with the US) but with low power and agressive and intolerant religious leaders with lot of power.

When G. Bush speak of axe of evil, people can think he said that everypeople here is evil, , and thus must be neutralized. I don't think it's the case, but why does he have to speak in that way, why don't he say the governement of this states are a threat to US nation : it will make more sense and nobody will say that US foreign policy is simplistic.

I don't think that G Bush is stupid, i think he said that sort of declaration for internal consumption either, the problem is that everyone listen what the US president say. And for foreign people that sort of declaration sound strange.I think G Bush consider that the opinions of Americans are more important than the opinions of others people (you can not worry him for that , but you must understand that your president can hardly be appreciated for that outside US)

I don't think you should criticize a country until you've lived there for a little while, but hey, that's just me.
I said earlier that America wasn't the center of the world. I was wrong. It is indeed the center of the world, at least from an American perspective. The bottom line is that the center of the world is where you live, wherever that might be.
Americans don't care about what goes on in France and in Europe. I can't blame them. The same is true for the French: they couldn't care less about American news, politics, or sports. Most people in France (and in the world in general) don't have a clue who John Goodman is, nor do they know what baseball and american football are. And they're probably better off that way
Just my 2 cents...

[quote]Originally posted by lolo:
<strong>I don't think you should criticize a country until you've lived there for a little while, but hey, that's just me.
I said earlier that America wasn't the center of the world. I was wrong. It is indeed the center of the world, at least from an American perspective. The bottom line is that the center of the world is where you live, wherever that might be.
Americans don't care about what goes on in France and in Europe. I can't blame them. The same is true for the French: they couldn't care less about American news, politics, or sports. Most people in France (and in the world in general) don't have a clue who John Goodman is, nor do they know what baseball and american football are. And they're probably better off that way
Just my 2 cents...</strong><hr></blockquote>
who is John Goodman ? is it a comic ?