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French foreign minister speaks out - Page 4

post #121 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:

I think that Syn is just little upset by all the bashing against France, and he get angry. Some people (not you Timo) must realize that the french member of AI are not particulary anti-american. If it was the case i doubt that thei'll spent hours on AI.<hr></blockquote>

It would be OK with me if he were anti-American...but of course I'm glad he's not.

The only point of my post is that a crime is a crime, and it is stupid to blame US foreign policy for Osama's gang. There are plenty of other real things to blame US foreign policy for, but this isn't one of them.

As for European criticism of the US, I say, "Bring it on." I mean, criticism may help further develop viewpoints. I perfer to hear what people in France or wherever really think, rather than blowin' sunshine up my ass.*

*hard to translate: it means saying nice things but insincerely, to try to get advantage
post #122 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

Yea that's my point. When Europe is perfect then they can speak up. Considering they are the source of most of the fighting in the 20 century I'd say they have some work to do.


</strong><hr></blockquote>
If in order to speak you need to be perfect, then you won't need a tongue.

No European has made the statement that Europe is perfect in this forum. No one is fool enough to make such a statement even if he love his country.

I suppose that somebody has talked to powell first , but with no response, so they make publical explanations. That's what i suppose, i haven't got any clues on this : i a m not in the secret of french diplomatia.
Of course it did that on purpose , but for what goals , difficult to say, i may ask him the question but i doubt that i have the real explanation. However i don't know this guy , he won't reply to me anyway.
post #123 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
When you get 3000 of your citizens killed we'll be right here ready to help, not embarrass.<hr></blockquote>

This is interesting to me...a very American statement. I say this because sentiments like it come straight out of the history book: when the United States joined World War I in 1917, General Pershing landed in France, and he announced, "Lafayette, we are here!"

Stirring words.

[For those who don't know, General Lafayette was instrumental in both arranging substantial French help against the British and fighting in the Revolutionary War]
post #124 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by Timo:
<strong>

The only point of my post is that a crime is a crime, and it is stupid to blame US foreign policy for Osama's gang. There are plenty of other real things to blame US foreign policy for, but this isn't one of them.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are right . A crime is a crime.
post #125 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>I suppose that somebody has talked to powell first , but with no response, so they make publical explanations. That's what i suppose, i haven't got any clues on this : i a m not in the secret of french diplomatia.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'd bet you supposed wrong. Even the International Red Cross had to be reminded of its own ****ing policies when it came to the US and detainees from Afghanistan.
post #126 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>
I think that its really quite simple. THe soviet Union was collapsing for a very long time, due mostly to the intrinsic unworkability of its system, as well as a constant and concerted effort by the West to combat it and to stop the spread of its ideology. Its really pretty damn idiotic to put in the place of that understanding the notion that the second most powerful government in the world freaked out when Reagan called them 'evil' and then spontaneoulsy collapsed.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's really quite simple. That's not even near an accurate representation of what I've written here. You created a straw man and then knocked him over. Whatever pleases you I guess.
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post #127 of 369
Scott, powerdoc is conducting himself in a reasonable and mature manner, there's not need to cuss at him.
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post #128 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Scott, powerdoc is conducting himself in a reasonable and mature manner, there's not need to cuss at him.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think I cussed at him.
post #129 of 369
This thread has been very helpful though. It's helped me clarify what I don't like about Europe and France.
post #130 of 369
[quote] I will. Don't worry. I've got to go attend some free engineering classes, and then I'll open your eyes. <hr></blockquote>

Glad to see they've found something for their unemployed to do.* <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />


*yes, i know that was low. but it was too good to pass up. sorry. <img src="graemlins/embarrassed.gif" border="0" alt="[Embarrassed]" />
post #131 of 369
[quote] Glad to see they've found something for their unemployed to do.*


*yes, i know that was low. but it was too good to pass up. sorry. <hr></blockquote>

Who the hell is unemployed? The guy with the doctorate teaching me? Or myself, a 20 year old student? Maybe my parents? You do realize the best engineering schools in France are free? You do realize my point was criticizing the center of the world for not having proper free education? No, you probably don't, because according to you, this was too good to pass up. I hope you're sorry for being so foolish.

[quote] SYN, answer this. Remember Interpol and the Olympics?

French intelligence. <hr></blockquote>

And? Where have I said France was the center of the world? Where have I said some other country was irrelevant? Could you please enlighten me instead of posting smart-alec remarks that only amuse the 12 year old members here who have severe attention span disorder?

[quote]SYN, I am quite sympathetic to many of your arguments, but this piece is wrong. US arrogance did not kill 3000 innocent people, 15 or so hijackers (mostly Saudi nationals) killed 3000 people <hr></blockquote>

I agree with this. However, one has to realize that what happened perhaps wouldn't have if it wasn't for the US' interventionism. I'm not defending anything, just saying that just like pearl Harbor, if you see this as a blind act of barbary, then you're sadly mistaken. I do appreciate your level-headedness.

[quote]If Europe were a little more even handed that would be nice. Rather than fly off the handel ever time they see a brown skinned person bound and blindfolded while in transport from a war zone to a detention center. Also if they could apply the same rules to every aspect of this war that would be nice too. <hr></blockquote>

The prisoners are not treated correctly, period. This has been reported independantly by the IRC. Wether they be POWs or terrorists, they didn't do anything more than they did 6 months ago for the majority of them. Only 6months ago they didn't attack your country, so it was ok to let them do what they wanted, it was ok to let Massood get killed. It was even OK to fund them, up until a few years ago. You seem to deny this, but the group that flew planes on the WTC is the same that fought the USSR during the cold war, fully armed and trained by the CIA. I suggest you educate yourself about this, perhaps by reading the excellent "Massoud the Afghan" written by Christophe de Ponfilly. Now they're the worse kind of human scum ever. Wow... How convenient.

Your claims are ridiculous ScottH. I used to respect you a lot in the old AI days. However recently you've come out as being *very* emotional and having thoughts that didn't, well, have thoughts behind them. IIRC, that period where every single one of your posts was "Apple Apologist tm" is quite representative of yourself. I'm quite disappointed at you.

[quote] But why do that when you can allow your envy to cloud your thinking and allow yourself to bash the US at every turn?

If France has a problem then take it to Powell and don't use the French press to try to embarrass us. I thought the French were masters at diplomacy? So I can conclude that they intent was to embarrass the US. So...France...**** off. When you get 3000 of your citizens killed we'll be right here ready to help, not embarrass<hr></blockquote>

Of course you would. Just like you did during WWII... Oh wait, you didn't. You stayed safely thousands of miles from a conflict that cost the lives of millions, until Japan actually attacked YOU. Wow.

Bush doesn't need Vedrine or any press criticism to ridicule his ownself pretty good. His trash talk has absolutely no credibility anywhere outside the US. Face it.

And France did support the US in its fight against the Taliban. France not supporting a speech by a moron is something else. France will not, and never has, blindly follow the steps of the US, for those have been wrong, countless times.

[quote]Then deal with the treatment of refugees, for example, in your own ****ing country and when you prefect it then you can turn your nose up and poo poo the US on that subject. Before that STFU. <hr></blockquote>

How incredibly mature of you. I don't seem to recall mexican refugees, or cuban refugees, being treated very correctly in the US either.

And the point is not what you seem to want to make it. You came out and said France was irrelevant. You said the US was the center of the world. I never claimed any such things regarding France.

As for you being conforted in your blind asumption that all Europeans don't like Americans, so be it. The fact is, indeed, most Europeans do not like Americans. This of couse only applies to American like you who are arrogant, severly uninformed, emotional, highly patritoic in the wrong way, and completely biased about their home country.

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: SYN ]

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: SYN ]</p>
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post #132 of 369
Proof PROOF ****ing PROOF! Back your shit up dude or don't ****ing say it.
post #133 of 369
what, you want proof regarding what?

What is it I've said that's got you running around your room covering your ears and screaming "Proof PROOF ****ing PROOF!"?

Perhaps you believe a few hundred men with swords and horses could have handled the Red Army all by themselves? And even though, I've pointed you to reference regarding the US involvement in the Afghan war against the USSR.

What else do you want me to proove? Your incompetence as a human being?
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post #134 of 369
I'm not exactly sure what he is supposed to be prooving.... although one thing is self evidently clear: Scotts arrogance and flippant dismissal of a whole country, as well as rounded discussion in favor of little viciouse snippet remarks that are supposed to be profound is very telling:

its very much like the Bush language and the rest of the world's reaction: "jeez that guy (that country) is really arrogant, thinks that his little mind (country) is the center of the world"

I'm an American and I have to say that this kind of consistent sniping is as uggly as everybody that rants against America claims it is. . . even if many of them are motivated out of 'envy' or whatever . . .it still looks bad and telling.


so, if the proof is about arrogance, just read all your own posts and then think about why some poeple make prejudices about Americans.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

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--Franklin Miller.

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #135 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:

<strong>I'm not exactly sure what he is supposed to be prooving.... </strong><hr></blockquote>

That's because you don't bother to read what others have posted before you happily jump into the fray. This began with SYN asserting that bin Laden was funded and trained by the CIA. He wasn't.
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post #136 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>what, you want proof regarding what?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

That people were mistreated. Because what I read is that after the Red Cross got down there they had some suggestions and then that was the end of it.
post #137 of 369
scott wasn't clear as to what he was refering to.

as for funding, what about the 45 million$ to fight opium production, given to the Taliban some months before the war? . . . I'm sure that, of course, the Taliban only used it for that purpose
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #138 of 369
But note, I am in no way placing blame or using this as some kind of 'its our fault' thing... . . but its generally acknowledge that this loan occured.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #139 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

That's because you don't bother to read what others have posted before you happily jump into the fray. This began with SYN asserting that bin Laden was funded and trained by the CIA. He wasn't.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Or that the Taliban got their arms from the US when they didn't. Or the other one that the US funded the Taliban which it didn't. Or that the Gitmo prisoners are/were mistreated. They weren't. Or the newest one about the 3000 civilian casualties that we all "know" happened but no one can prove.

These are many of the lies/facts that are repeated over and over and never go challenged. When they are challenged your told to STFU and play nice.
post #140 of 369
I recall reading an article a few days ago that said new civilian loss of life in Afghanistan to be around 600. That's a lot of people. It's sad. I know war is dirty and that this is one of the most precise wars ever fought. Still, it's depressing and I think we need to show more remorse than CIA money handouts to families. But, I guess that's war. Sucks.
post #141 of 369
[quote]Or that the Taliban got their arms from the US when they didn't. Or the other one that the US funded the Taliban which it didn't.
<hr></blockquote>

Yes they did. I even pointed you to a book written by an independant journalist who followed Massood over 20 years. You don't seem to acknowledge that. Perhaps they just made their own stinger missiles during the Cold War... lol.

[quote]
Or that the Gitmo prisoners are/were mistreated. They weren't.
<hr></blockquote>

You're switftly fighting on new ground. the Red Cross report is confidential, however independant journalists, and spokesman for Amnesty International, have clearly stated the conditions are not correct. But even if this is not true, it doesn't refute any single one of the facts I've listed going against your ridiculous assertions.

[quote]

These are many of the lies/facts that are repeated over and over and never go challenged. When they are challenged your told to STFU and play nice. <hr></blockquote>

I don't recall asking you to STFU. In fact, I don't remember using foul language *once* in this discussion. You however, just like a teenager discovering the "power" of the word fsck, have used it in just about every single post, and indeed kindly asking me to STFU

The analogy to your president is quite fitting, IMNSHO.
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post #142 of 369
[quote]I recall reading an article a few days ago that said new civilian loss of life in Afghanistan to be around 600. That's a lot of people. It's sad. I know war is dirty and that this is one of the most precise wars ever fought. Still, it's depressing and I think we need to show more remorse than CIA money handouts to families. But, I guess that's war. Sucks.<hr></blockquote>

I'm still waiting for your apologies regarding the "unemployed" joke.

And as for the civilian body count, there you go

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1740000/1740538.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1 740000/1740538.stm</a>

[quote]Professor Herold has been gathering data on civilian casualties since 7 October by culling information from news agencies, major newspapers and first hand accounts.

His report, which places the death toll at 3,767, lists the number of casualties, location, type of weapon and source of information.

"In fact the figure I came up with is a very, very conservative estimate," Professor Herold said in a radio interview. <hr></blockquote>

This of course does not take into account the *huge* number of children that died during the winter because of the war.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1615000/1615256.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1615000/1615256.stm</a>

Is this proof enough? Or would you like to see the body of every single Afghan civilian that died?

When we're done discussing this, I've got loads of other arguments that refute your affirmation that the US is better than anything else, and that Europe is irrelevant. I think you'd better start backpedaling right about now, since it seems your support in this thread is growing thin, and you won't have anything to say when I start talking about education, social securty, the ICBM and Kyoto treaties etc. except perhaps that quite convenient "Proof! PROOF! ****ing PROOF!"



[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: SYN ]</p>
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post #143 of 369
Oh, and just for the record, I'm saying Fidel Castro will die soon.

So now, when he does eventually die, I can claim he did so because of me saying he would, not because of some ridiculous reason like old age or cancer or CIA poisoning or whatever.

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post #144 of 369
Thanks for the link SYN, but that's not the story I was refering to. Rather it was this one from the associated press: <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58253-2002Feb11.html" target="_blank">Review: Afghan Civilian Deaths Lower</a>

As for the joke, sorry. I didn't know it was going to peev you so much. I was just making a joke playing off of the idea that French domestic policy is responsible for high unemployment rates. The same domestic policy responsible for your free college education. Surely you can see the irony between the two ideas. It certainly was not meant as a joke against you or your family. So lay back, relax, and have a good smoke. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> ....you French tend to like that, no?
post #145 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>
as for funding, what about the 45 million$ to fight opium production, given to the Taliban some months before the war? . . . I'm sure that, of course, the Taliban only used it for that purpose </strong><hr></blockquote>

What about it? It didn't happen. You can thank Robert Scheer for that little piece of disinformation.

<a href="http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/this_just_in/documents/01839506.htm" target="_blank">Did the White House give the Taliban $43 million?</a>

BY DAN KENNEDY

[quote]In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks, a little-noticed decision by the Bush administration last May has emerged as a powerful symbol of US fecklessness.

According to commentators of all ideological stripes - from the Nation's Christopher Hitchens on the left to the New Yorker's Hendrik Hertzberg in the center to the Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly on the right - the US gave $43 million to Afghanistan's Taliban government as a reward for its efforts to stamp out opium-poppy cultivation. That would have been a shockingly inappropriate gift to a government that had been sanctioned by the United Nations for its refusal to hand over international terrorist Osama bin Laden.

Would have been, that is, if it had really happened. It didn't...<hr></blockquote>
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post #146 of 369
This just in. Taliban report civilian deaths at 10,000 confirmed by Jihad TV (aka al jazera). They could show us all the dead but their dog ate them they swear. Amnesty International asks for Bush to be tried for war crimes and publishes 800 number to send donations. Human Rights Watch caught off guard by chance to solicit donations.
post #147 of 369
SYN:
&gt;I agree with this. However, one has to realize that what happened perhaps wouldn't have if it wasn't for the US' interventionism. I'm not defending anything, just saying that just like pearl Harbor, if you see this as a blind act of barbary, then you're sadly mistaken. I do appreciate your level-headedness.&lt;

The oft repeated statement that if it weren't for American intervention.......blah blah blah is so blindingly ignorant. The US is called upon to act because noone else does. Then if a mistake is made we get all the fallout. If it was the right thing to do but it happened to piss off some terrorists who have the IQ of a funnel the blame somehow falls back to us again. There was NO EXCUSE for Sep 11. It makes no ****ing difference who we do or do not piss off because it is IMPOSSIBLE to make everyone in the world happy. And don't give me this crap that you're not defending them-you ARE because you are giving them justification for their acts.

SYN:
&gt;The prisoners are not treated correctly, period. This has been reported independantly by the IRC. Wether they be POWs or terrorists, they didn't do anything more than they did 6 months ago for the majority of them. Only 6months ago they didn't attack your country, so it was ok to let them do what they wanted, it was ok to let Massood get killed. It was even OK to fund them, up until a few years ago. You seem to deny this, but the group that flew planes on the WTC is the same that fought the USSR during the cold war, fully armed and trained by the CIA. I suggest you educate yourself about this, perhaps by reading the excellent "Massoud the Afghan" written by Christophe de Ponfilly. Now they're the worse kind of human scum ever. Wow... How convenient.&lt;

You are so clueless it is frightening. They are TERRORISTS. They were living in mud and caves eating maggots and shrubbery and now they are in sunny Cuba eating 3 meals a day, clean, and safe. Europeans consider that not being treated properly? Maybe France can take them in and send them to a Hotel. After all France loves terrorists as long as they pass through to hit a different target. Doesn't matter if its a so-called ally, as long as France isn't a target its A-OK. Too bad you don't understand our country, we actually have a spine.

Then you actually have the nerve to wonder why we didn't act sooner? Can you imagine the outcry from you weenies if we did? Preemptive strikes are anathema to Europeans, except maybe the British. Now I know why Britain likes to consider itself seperate from Europe. Perhaps its because Europe is an embarrassment?

SYN:
&gt;How incredibly mature of you. I don't seem to recall mexican refugees, or cuban refugees, being treated very correctly in the US either.&lt;

And you complain about Americans not knowing much about the rest of the world!? Mexicans are mistreated!? Amnesty for illegals, absolutely no deportations even though 20% of inmates in California are illegals from Mexico, a free trade treaty that wiped out thousands of American industrial jobs, and I can go on and on. Mexicans have been treated so well here I think George W is going to personally give a blowjob to every ****ing illegal in this country. As for Cubans, instant citizenship upon arrival seems pretty damn fair to me! Funny you don't mention France clamping down on illegals trying to use the Chunnel to get to Britain. Poor refugees and you sick the cops on them, how unfair of you. And notice that they are trying to get out of France and get to Britain? Gee, I wonder why?

SYN:
&gt; The fact is, indeed, most Europeans do not like Americans. This of couse only applies to American like you who are arrogant, severly uninformed, emotional, highly patritoic in the wrong way, and completely biased about their home country.&lt;

The fact is that even Europeans don't like the French. I saw a report on the Chunnel and the anti-French commentary was hilarious. France invented arrogance. We just happen to have a higher opinion of our country than you do of yours. Deal with it and grow up.........................
post #148 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Scott, powerdoc is conducting himself in a reasonable and mature manner, there's not need to cuss at him.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks Groverat
I expect that your neighboor is more quiet now. There is very good headphones to play bass.
post #149 of 369
I'm very impressed by the way powerdoc conducts himself while still making his own points in the face of rebuttles and minor insults. That itself gives me a better impression of the French.... then someone like SYN comes along and then I come to the realization that France is filled with people who are intelligent and rational while keeping their own views, and then there's the 'others'. Sadly the 'others' are the loudest and we form our opinions from the loudest voices.
post #150 of 369
[quote] I'm very impressed by the way powerdoc conducts himself while still making his own points in the face of rebuttles and minor insults. That itself gives me a better impression of the French.... then someone like SYN comes along and then I come to the realization that France is filled with people who are intelligent and rational while keeping their own views, and then there's the 'others'. Sadly the 'others' are the loudest and we form our opinions from the loudest voices. <hr></blockquote>

I guess I'm in the others' camp?

I think my behavior, compared to that of ScottH, has been incredibly more mature and level-headed. All I've tried to establish is that the US is not the end all be all of the world. Never once have I said France was better overall, etc.

You might think what you want though. I'm sick and tired of discussing these kinds of issues with people who get overly emotional over them.
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post #151 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>

I guess I'm in the others' camp?


</strong><hr></blockquote>

then someone like SYN comes along and then I come to the realization that France is filled with people who are intelligent and rational while keeping their own views,

For me it's a compliment, SYN

, by the loudest i think he was refering to another people ...

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
post #152 of 369
I do hope so, because I've tried my best to keep calm in this discussion, knowing very well that most of ScottH's posts were explicitely made to provoke

Ras le cul de ces ricains
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post #153 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>I knowing very well that most of ScottH's posts were explicitely made to provoke

) </strong><hr></blockquote>
I hope so for him.
post #154 of 369
Thread Starter 
It can´t be me. &lt;angelmode&gt; I stick to arguments in all discussions &lt;/angelmode&gt;.

If it isn´t SYN who do you think it is PowerDoc? Who else is there in "our camp"? Perhaps we should claim to be a minority and get privileges
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post #155 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>It can´t be me. &lt;angelmode&gt; I stick to arguments in all discussions &lt;/angelmode&gt;.

If it isn´t SYN who do you think it is PowerDoc? Who else is there in "our camp"? Perhaps we should claim to be a minority and get privileges </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well i must admit that there is 2 different way to understand what Outsider have said. It depends if the others where refering to SYN or to Scott. This sentance is too subtile for my poor enghish

post #156 of 369
By the way . . .German chancellor has come out repeating the same opinion as the French. . . and with support from other European countries
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #157 of 369
February 13, 2002

<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/13/opinion/13FRIE.html?pagewanted=print" target="_blank">Crazier Than Thou
</a> (registration required)

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

[quote]LONDON

Reading Europe's press, it is really reassuring to see how warmly Europeans have embraced President Bush's formulation that an "axis of evil" threatens world peace. There's only one small problem. President Bush thinks the axis of evil is Iran, Iraq and North Korea, and the Europeans think it's Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and Condi Rice.

I'm not kidding. Chris Patten, the European Union's foreign policy czar, told The Guardian that the Bush axis- of-evil idea was dangerously "absolutist and simplistic," not "thought through" and "unhelpful," and that the Europeans needed to stop Washington before it went into "unilateralist overdrive."

So what do I think? I think these critics are right that the countries Mr. Bush identified as an axis of evil are not really an "axis," and we shouldn't drive them together. And the critics are right that each of these countries poses a different kind of threat and requires a different, nuanced response. And the critics are right that America can't fight everywhere alone. And the critics are right that America needs to launch a serious effort to end Israeli-Palestinian violence, because it's undermining any hope of U.S.-Arab cooperation.

The critics are right on all these counts - but I'm still glad President Bush said what he said.

Because the critics are missing the larger point, which is this: Sept. 11 happened because America had lost its deterrent capability. We lost it because for 20 years we never retaliated against, or brought to justice, those who murdered Americans. From the first suicide bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut in April 1983, to the bombing of the Marine barracks at the Beirut airport a few months later, to the T.W.A. hijacking, to the attack on U.S. troops at Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, to the suicide bombings of two U.S. embassies in East Africa, to the attack on the U.S.S. Cole in Yemen, innocent Americans were killed and we did nothing.

So our enemies took us less and less seriously and became more and more emboldened. Indeed, they became so emboldened that a group of individuals - think about that for a second: not a state but a group of individuals - attacked America in its own backyard...<hr></blockquote>

[ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
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post #158 of 369
Awww, you left out the "crazier than thou" part, at the end, where Friedman writes
[quote]No, the axis-of-evil idea isn't thought through but that's what I like about it. It says to these countries and their terrorist pals: "We know what you're cooking in your bathtubs. We don't know exactly what we're going to do about it, but if you think we are going to just sit back and take another dose from you, you're wrong. Meet Don Rumsfeld he's even crazier than you are." <hr></blockquote>

He's even crazier than you are. :eek:
post #159 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by Timo:
<strong>Awww, you left out the "crazier than thou" part, at the end, where Friedman writes

He's even crazier than you are. :eek: </strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't exactly agree with Friedman but I'm okay with having our enemies think this.
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post #160 of 369
You'd probably be surprised to know that I agree with him as well, except for the agreeing with the Bush statement.

I mean, I agree that we need to keep up a semblance of deterent power . . . but that doesn't mean irrational hyperbole and alienating the countries that want a sense of diplomacy among nations (even if its just between themselves -US and Europe)

Part of what has alienated these countries is not whether the 'axis' countries are doing bad things and are dangerous or not, nor is it whether something more active should be done in relation to them or not, but is, that America is threatening to move forward without any consensus of international scope, and doing so with a justification which definitely sounds more like a fanatical's call to arms than that of the leader of the most technologicaly advanced nation in the world.

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
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