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French foreign minister speaks out - Page 9

post #321 of 369
That's because Arafat tried to over throw him (his father) year and years ago. Arafat, like bin Laden, is a guy that looks for trouble. Where he doesn't find it he causes it. He never should have been allowed to rise to this level.
post #322 of 369
Arafat wouldn't be the man he is today, if Israel hadn't treated the palestinians the way they've done for the last 30 years...

to every action there is a reaction...
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post #323 of 369
>Arafat wouldn't be the man he is today, if Israel hadn't treated the palestinians the way they've done for the last 30 years...
to every action there is a reaction...<

You mean the hospitals, universities, jobs, a higher standard of living than most of the arab world? Compare that to the Palestinians living in squalor in Lebanons refugee camps for 30 years. Israel treats Palestinians better than their Arab brothers do. If they could just withold their urge to kill they would've had their own State by now.........
post #324 of 369
Thread Starter 
So because Apartheid South Africas black population had a better life materially speaking than the population in other african states they should just be happy and say "Thank you, Mr. PW Botha"?

I hope Israel will have a "de Klerk" as leader soon.
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post #325 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Arafat wouldn't be the man he is today, if Israel hadn't treated the palestinians the way they've done for the last 30 years...

to every action there is a reaction...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Um no. I tend to blame Arafat's love for violence and terror. That's what drive him to become a terrorist.

Where's the Palestinian Gandhi, MLK or Tutu?
post #326 of 369
Steve, over 40% of the palestinians now live bellow the UN povertyborder, that means they have less than a dollar a week to live for...

Scott, Arafat hasn't beem the President of the palestinian people for 30 years has he? There wouldn't be any need for PLO if there was nothing to liberate...
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post #327 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Steve, over 40% of the palestinians now live bellow the UN povertyborder, that means they have less than a dollar a week to live for...

Scott, Arafat hasn't beem the President of the palestinian people for 30 years has he? There wouldn't be any need for PLO if there was nothing to liberate...</strong><hr></blockquote>


He's not the president now but I digress. Arafat creats need.
post #328 of 369
to Scott H-great posturing -are you a leftist posing as a rightist to create effing liberal reactions?
th US fits yr claims well too- [quote] But anyway what the **** does USA care? They wont do any of the fighting. They wont solve any of the problems. They wont suffer any major impact due to any of it. <hr></blockquote>
[quote] Well when the countries we need start bitching then we'll listen. We stopped listening to the liberal elite in this country when the blamed the US for 9-11. <hr></blockquote>-
is that bitchin or bombing? & who did 911? Bin Laden th CIA pet? any Afghanis? or was it Saudis on board-US oil buddies that they are. Bush/Cheney are oil-soaked, & they're rapt that 911 has legitimized th presidency, sidelined consideration of economic & social problems, & made US control of world oil achievable. & wot's this? [quote] France allowed Arab terrrists to go unabated through France in the seventies as long as they promised not to attack French targets. Biggest bunch of pussies in the world.<hr></blockquote> well natch- th US happily has arrangements such as this with all kindsa nasty people, self-interest eh? hardly new or startling that...
& while we're generalizing, howcum Americans ARE so fat whilst millions starve?
post #329 of 369
<a href="http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=15022002-030120-7152r" target="_blank">"What about he French"</a>
post #330 of 369
I do not agree with everything with this article, but it worth the read.

However i don't know the opinion of our elites, in order to know that you must belong to them. Our politics seems to be interested by our votes rather than our countrie since De Gaulle and perhaps Pompidou (but i was too young to know him).

I agree with several things :

- there is not enough people working there, only 60 % of the population vs US 75 % at the age of working work : , too many people try to have a life annuyty (my wife , is a Medical doctor, and she is upset by this people who only thinks of this, of course there is also people who want to work : luckily the situation is not desperate.

- the weight of state is too heavy.

- taxes prevent you to work harder (i have no interest to work much more than i do, the difference will be very little at the end)

Personaly the dream of a Giant France via Europe does not exist, but it does not bother me : what is the difference to be the 1/ 60 000 000 part of a nation or the 1/ 300 000 000 part of Europe. I prefer that the leadership come from germany if it's fit well with my personal opinions. So perhaps our elite want to rule EU, but they are not alone, but i does not personaly bother me : where is my interest ?

I only ask one thing ,preserve the cheese i love, not one of this plastic cheese i hate.


Generally the healthy economic rules are dictate by europe to the states : aka the euro which brings obligations of gestion to the states.
post #331 of 369
This stupid article perpetuates the myth that France has somehow, en masse, turned against the US. It states that the French are reviling the US . . . I don't see this anywhere!!!!!

Its just a typical US anti-French reactionary stance...... an over reaction to a clearly justifiable calling of Bush's rhetoric 'simplisme'. An excuse for Americans to drag out all the old cliche insults about the French so that we can feel superior.

I'm so tired of this bullshiit: Americans have no reason to hate the French and the French shouldn't hate Americans (except for the fact that they are consistently rude while at Paris-Orly)
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post #332 of 369
&gt;Steve, over 40% of the palestinians now live bellow the UN povertyborder, that means they have less than a dollar a week to live for...&lt;

And I bet most of those Palestinians are the ones being 'taken care of' by Arabs. If they wanted so badly to improve their lot in life they should have long ago abandoned their dream of wiping out Israel and accepted the State Israel was offering. Arafat has to realize he has no power over the situation. If he thinks killing civilians again is going to help him he should know by now it ain't gonna happen.

As for France, they declared Israels going into the camps to weed out weapons and terrorists as an 'act of war'. Harsh language from a country that has nothing to do in the area. Funny, I never heard France call Palestinian suicide bombings an 'act of war'............................................
post #333 of 369
I didn't know about France saying that . . . however it seems pretty obviouse that what is happening over there is War.
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post #334 of 369
Both sides are engaged in War, albeit a low-intensity one. Some Palestinian factions are also engaged in Terrorism.
post #335 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>&gt;

As for France, they declared Israels going into the camps to weed out weapons and terrorists as an 'act of war'. Harsh language from a country that has nothing to do in the area. Funny, I never heard France call Palestinian suicide bombings an 'act of war'............................................</strong><hr></blockquote>

I did not hear that either. I expect you do not speak of this stupid french diplomat from London. On the radio i only hear the facts, they just say that the violence is increasing, but they do not speak of war. They comment this in a neutral way, each day it's a litany of murder by suicide bombers and retaliations, but just fact. It's possible that certain media of France are partial, but i just listen to France info with is a public radio information.

France is not the ennemy of Israel, our jew community is 800 000 members, i do not consider them as a minority, just people who have a different religion, they are as french than me even if they have special relation with israel. Some of them are minister, like Fabius who was the french prime-minister some years ago and have chances to become president.

However France has bad relations with Sharon, i did not like this man, and his accusations that the live in France is not safe for the jews and that Israel is ready to receive them.
It's a joke, send Jews that use to live in France for centuries in a country where there is 250 israelians killed since Sharon is prime-minister (50 for Barak). Even the president of the council of the french's jew said in a diplomatical way that France was a safe place, even if they wish that the muslims leaders send a message of tolerance to the french muslims in order to stop some minor violence like the domages of a synagoge or a school.
Saying that, Sharon only want to shut up the France mouth who try to be neutral, saying that we are antisemit. For me it's just bad politic.
I must add that the second inkifada (revolt of stone) started when sharon went on the esplanade of the mosque : an act of pure provocation.

I have great respect for Rabin and Barak, and i am angry with the palestinians because they did not take the chance that this man gave to them. I hate terrorism too, using terrorist is weakaning your ideal. however , Sharon is not the man of peace and security, israelians are becoming angry, security on Israel is in very bad way since he his in charge.

Last point , Europe is involved in the treaty of peace of Oslo. Therefore we are involved a little.
post #336 of 369
&gt;israelians killed since Sharon is prime-minister (50 for Barak). Even the president of the council of the french's jew said in a diplomatical way that France was a safe place, even if they wish that the muslims leaders send a message of tolerance to the french muslims in order to stop some minor violence like the domages of a synagoge or a school.&lt;

I don't consider that type of violence minor. France has many more Muslims than Jews and i believe that influences some of their policies.

As for not hearing that said, it was reported in Newday, a newspaper on Long Island. It wasn't said by that Fench diplomat who called Israel a rotten country (who still has his job by the way-some diplomat)......................................... ......
post #337 of 369
For what it's worth, the jewish population in the U.S. is a little more than 6,000,000-- roughly 2.2% (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/US-Israel/usjewpop.html)

Given powerdoc's numbers with demographic info from askjeeves (ask him "What is the population of France?") we find that the jewish population makes up 1.3%. I tried to verify powerdoc's numbers, but couldn't find any info (only willing to spend 10 minutes on this).

I was suprised that the U.S. numbers turned out so low. I was expecting around 5% as a blind guess.
post #338 of 369
And let us not forget, Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994.

Who awards those anyway?
post #339 of 369
Most Americans support Israel not mainly because of its Jewish population but because conservative Christians believe Israel and Jerusalem should be controlled by the Jews. I believe its a biblical thing. In addition, even though there was rampant antisemitism here decades ago, assimilation into American culture has minimized any of that. Also, Jews are looked upon as being Western, of Western culture while Muslims are considered Eastern and thus more 'different' than Jews. You hear all the time of our Judeo-Christian Ethic.

Also, Jews don't slaughter Americans, Muslims do <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: steve666 ]</p>
post #340 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by Arakageeta:
<strong>For what it's worth, the jewish population in the U.S. is a little more than 6,000,000-- roughly 2.2% ...

I was suprised that the U.S. numbers turned out so low. I was expecting around 5% as a blind guess.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The number of Muslims is about to overtake the Jews in the US. That said, the US has some of the largest concentrations of Jews in the world outside of Israel. Where I live (West Hartford, CT) is one of them. They make great neighbors just so long as you aren't trying to kill them.
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post #341 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by Arakageeta:
<strong>And let us not forget, Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, for signing the Oslo accords which he didn't abide by. What a pathetic joke.
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post #342 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>Most Americans support Israel not mainly because of its Jewish population but because conservative Christians believe Israel and Jerusalem should be controlled by the Jews. I believe its a biblical thing. In addition, even though there was rampant antisemitism here decades ago, assimilation into American culture has minimized any of that. Also, Jews are looked upon as being Western, of Western culture while Muslims are considered Eastern and thus more 'different' than Jews. You hear all the time of our Judeo-Christian Ethic.

Also, Jews don't slaughter Americans, Muslims do <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

[ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: steve666 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
The same can apply, for France,The judeo-christian ethic you see. The jew's culture is much near than the european culture than the muslims culture, it's logical in fact because many jews come from europe after WW2.
However there is also state like liban where the culture is open and tolerant. (but there is different religions here living together)

[ 03-05-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
post #343 of 369
What ever your opinion of the US you have to give them credit for one thing; where else in the world do you see such an ethnic and religious diversity all kept under control internally? We have people from EVERY other world country and religion living under this tent.
post #344 of 369
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666:
<strong>

I don't consider that type of violence minor. France has many more Muslims than Jews and i believe that influences some of their policies..</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's minor by the mouth of the President of the CRIF himself, anyway it's unfortunately minor in comparisons of the violence in israel aka 250 israelians deaths and how many wounded people (in France : 0).
In the past there where many french colonies in north Africa, and many people heres has a huge french culture especially the elites. This create links, and France deal with this countrie for decades. In other way we have no special links withs arabians countrie like Saudi Arabia and the likes who are more linked with USA. In the past we bet on the wrong horse with Irak, hoping to have good relationships with a big producer of Oil.
This explains why France has always been neutral in that conflict.
However my personal point of vue is :
- Israel which is a democratic countrie has the right to leave in peace, and i have great respect for these people who have make green the desert.
- palestinian have the right to have their own states which be of a normal shape and not full hof holes (the jews colonies)
- Jerusalem must be lead by Israel at the exception of the mosques where a special status must be applied like the vatican. The palestinian block of this city may have a certain autonomy, but the security must be organize by Israel (i don't want to see a second Berlin with this shitty wall)


.[/QB]


As for not hearing that said, it was reported in Newday, a newspaper on Long Island. It wasn't said by that Fench diplomat who called Israel a rotten country (who still has his job by the way-some diplomat)......................................... ......[/QB][/QUOTE]

In France you cannot fire a diplomat very easily, nor any people working in the public aera (will call them fonctionnaires). However, the fact of fired him will be seen has a proof of weakness. BTW you can be sure that is future will not be as good as he expected, his career will stop it's evolution.
post #345 of 369
[quote] for signing the Oslo accords which he didn't abide by. <hr></blockquote>

for what it's worth Roger; Israel, under Barak where worse at keeping their promises from the Oslo agreement than Arafats government. Israel keept on expanding and building new settlements, and confiscating palestinian property in Jerusalem throughout the whole period, when they had promised to stop this. This is one of the main factors behind the failure of the oslo-accord...

One example: The site where the US embassy is supposed to be buildt in Jerusalem is Palestinian property confiscated by Israel. There are documents way back to the 1930's that proves this...

The Israeli labor government has for many years avoided any confrontation with their own religious extreemist.
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post #346 of 369
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>The Israeli labor government has for many years avoided any confrontation with their own religious extreemist.</strong><hr></blockquote>

When I was in Israel the largest "hate" or "dislike" or whatever you want to call it from the main Israeli popultaion was towards the ultra orthodox jews, not the palestinians. They don´t have to join the army because of their religious studies but the rest of the population have to give their lifes for protecting them and their settlements. If anyone has an interested in this ongoing war its the settlers. The longer the war rage the longer they can stay.

A little advise travelling in Israel: Don´t ask the jews with black kippots for directions if you are travelling with a woman. He won´t answer you in the presents of her. Somehow its degrading for him to answer you.
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post #347 of 369
Heh, I worked with a muslim that wouldn't talk to women that were over him in the corporate structure. He didn't last long.
post #348 of 369
So is buddhism the only real good religion then? <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
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post #349 of 369
Powerdoc:
&gt;However my personal point of vue is :
- Israel which is a democratic countrie has the right to leave in peace, and i have great respect for these people who have make green the desert.
- palestinian have the right to have their own states which be of a normal shape and not full hof holes (the jews colonies)
- Jerusalem must be lead by Israel at the exception of the mosques where a special status must be applied like the vatican. The palestinian block of this city may have a certain autonomy, but the security must be organize by Israel (i don't want to see a second Berlin with this shitty wall)&lt;

Powerdoc, you are a voice of reason in a sea of insanity. I happen to agree with everything you have said here. Israel living in peace. Dismantling of the settlements which are difficult to defend and a hindrance to peace. A Palestinian State that is peaceful towards Israel.

The big question is whether this is possible. On the Arab side you have large, armed groups who oppose Israel existing in ANY form, and on Israel's side you have the ultraorthodox who will violently oppose giving up the settlements.

I would like to see Israel propose the following:

1. Jerusalem under Israeli control except fot muslim areas, which would have intl. administration.

2. Continued opposition to the return of palestinian refugees to Israel which would be national suicide. However, offer instead to remove all settlers from occupied areas and allow the Palestinians to move into the buildings anyone they want to. There are thousands of apartments already built.

3. The creation of a Palestinian State in the areas ONLY if every Arab country ceases their hostilities towards Israel and full recognition of the State of Israel.

4. A promise to supply no large artillery to the new Palestinian State.

I don't see any of this happening though...............
post #350 of 369
Why would the return of refugees be national suicide?
Remember that Isreal is shipping in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from all over the world...
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post #351 of 369
I feel that any land/city splitting would end in failiure even if you could get both sides to agree. They still won't trust eachother. They'll still have their guns pointed at eachother. They'll still be hurling insults and whatnot at eachother. At best, we'll see something 10x worse than India/Pakistan.

Let's face it: there won't be any peace until the will of one of the sides is broken (or perhaps both's). There WILL NOT be peace until one side is totally destroyed. Pretty heavy statement, huh?

So then what? All the land becomes Isreal? All Palistine? Perhaps it would be better for both to be one nation with a fair respectful democratic government. HA! Yeah, right. One side would be totally broken before that could ever happen. And that means a lot of death.
post #352 of 369
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>Why would the return of refugees be national suicide?
Remember that Isreal is shipping in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from all over the world...</strong><hr></blockquote>

It is difficult to be a state defined by a belief and at the same time to be a democracy. It is crucial for them to have more jewish voters than of other religions.

Even though it isn´t fair the only reasonable solution is for the refugees not to return to Israel but be given a large compensation for the confiscated land and property. I´m not talking about the land Israel occupied after 68 but only the areas before this. Gaza and the west bank should of course be given back to the Palestinians and the jews living in the settlements should be given the offer to live under palestinian rule or move back into Israel.
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post #353 of 369
&gt;Why would the return of refugees be national suicide?
Remember that Isreal is shipping in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from all over the world...&lt;

Israel must remain overwhelmingly Jewish for obvious reasons. .....................................
post #354 of 369
i've hear that Colin Powells criticize Sharon policy in front of the congress saying that this violence will lead to nothing good.

USA is the friend of Israel but not unconditionaly.
post #355 of 369
But Powell can't condemn Israel too much, because it would make the US gov't seem hypocritical - bashing a country like Israel for fighting its war on terrorism, but at the same time attacking Afganistan and the other smaller operations going on in the Philipines, Yemen, and Georgia.

The US is in the position that they can't criticize the Israelies much.

As someone said above, the conservative christians support Israel, yes they do. They believe that once the Jews return to the Holy Land some apacalyps (sp) will occur and the rebirth of Jesus will happen, then the Jews would believe in him.

Also, the military/military industries co develope or purchase much of their technology from Israeli companies.

The American-Israel Public Affairs Committee is supposedly the second most powerful lobbying group in Washington.

Anyway, the US might criticize Israel a little bit, but overall they will support them.
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post #356 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by MacsKickAss:
[QB

As someone said above, the conservative christians support Israel, yes they do. They believe that once the Jews return to the Holy Land some apacalyps (sp) will occur and the rebirth of Jesus will happen, then the Jews would believe in him.

them.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Are you serious or is is just irony, did they really believe that ?
post #357 of 369
[quote] i've hear that Colin Powells criticize Sharon policy in front of the congress saying that this violence will lead to nothing good <hr></blockquote>


He also said, and I think that this is just as, if not more, important, that the position of the Palastinians is one of despair where they walk around treated as, and feeling like, second class citizens, and are basically oppressed and kept miserable.

Perhaps he can see into such things because he is not in complete denial of what the African-American situation in the states was as he was a child.
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--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

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post #358 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>

....

Perhaps he can see into such things because he is not in complete denial of what the African-American situation in the states was as he was a child.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Where's the Palestinian MLK? There is none.
post #359 of 369
Agreed, a graet leader would probably make a world of difference.

On both fronts.

The problem is is that both sides have fanatics and are swayed heavily by those fanatic's views.

Palastinian fanatics want an end to Israel, Israely fanatics believe that the state equals the coming mesiah and therfor they need to expand the state (increase the settlements) Both sides are screwwed because these extreme attitudes have real impact on the actions of the respective peoples.
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
--George W Bush

"Narrative is what starts to happen after eight minutes
--Franklin Miller.

"Nothing...

Reply
post #360 of 369
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>Agreed, a graet leader would probably make a world of difference.

On both fronts.

The problem is is that both sides have fanatics and are swayed heavily by those fanatic's views.

Palastinian fanatics want an end to Israel, Israely fanatics believe that the state equals the coming mesiah and therfor they need to expand the state (increase the settlements) Both sides are screwwed because these extreme attitudes have real impact on the actions of the respective peoples.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's why it's difficult to see an issue of this conflict.
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