French foreign minister speaks out - Page 3

[quote]Originally posted by Mars_Attacks:
<strong>

I hold a pilot's certificate and fly an aerobatic American Champion Aircraft Super Decathlon.
I know the reality of turning the fan off, so go pound some pebbles up your ass with a pick axe, ground dweller.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Perhaps you have practice too many loopings crazy pilot. I would not speak of your ass, because i am not interested in what there in it.
And you forgot to mention what did arrive to the boeing who explode.

No plane are perfect, especially the olds ones, you should know that perfectly if you are a pilot. American companies are not clowns, if they have buy these planes , they have taken in considerations the security point of vue. Unfortunately you cannot control everything, and accident may happens whether it's an airbus or a Boeing. If you detect a problem, you will practice the modifications.

[quote]Originally posted by powerdoc:
<strong>

No plane are perfect, especially the olds ones, you should know that perfectly if you are a pilot. American companies are not clowns, if they have buy these planes , they have taken in considerations the security point of vue. Unfortunately you cannot control everything, and accident may happens whether it's an airbus or a Boeing. If you detect a problem, you will practice the modifications.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2002/A02_01_02.pdf" target="_blank"> Here you go</a> Poor design.

The Boeing 747 that exploded was a VERY old aircraft.
The Airbus is new. Too new to have such a catastropic failure. For such a "high tech" aircraft it should have limiters for vertical fin deflection for any given airspeed like the Boeing 777 does.

The ONLY reason the Airbus was bought by American Airlines was that the 777 was not in suffcent quantity to be purchased at the time.

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Mars_Attacks ]</p>

Interesting PDF file. Perhaps you can answer me a question ;

In this file, they only told recommendations about training, and not technical transformations. The national safety board of aviations have no interest to protect the airbus companie i suppose, and they only propose recommandations about training : does it means that it is considered for normal that planes collapse if they are not use in the right conditions ?

Are you sure that the airbus A300-600 is belonging to the last generations of plane with electro-mechanical controls : no physical wires , just electrical wire (pardon my english).
For me modern airbus are the A320, A318, A 340. I think this kind of limitators will be easy to put in this lattest planes (just a software update);
If the A 300-600 belong to the old generation with physical wire, the modification you suggest will need a big modification.

From what <a href="http://www.janes.com/aerospace/civil/news/jawa/jawa011112_1_n.shtml" target="_blank">Jane's</a> says, its a new aircraft. Boeing requires the full rudder at high speed test to make sure it will not fail. Airbus was well aware of this problem with the composite material verticle fin. Even the F117a's have had catastropic failures due to their carbon composite structures.

Back from whence ye came, MacMonkey!

Leave the <a href="http://www.dallasnews.com/world/stories/france_11int.ART0.a9b51.html" target="_blank">frenchman</a> alone.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Back from whence ye came, MacMonkey!

Leave the <a href="http://www.dallasnews.com/world/stories/france_11int.ART0.a9b51.html" target="_blank">frenchman</a> alone.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This article is true, the problem is that anti-semitism is coming from north-africans originate people, and it's not politically correct to say that this people are responsible of anti-semitism.If that was skinnheads who where in cause, you can be sure that our media and political leader will be full of it. I remember that a few years ago , i was in a manifestation against the profonation of jew's tombs to support my friends. That's the only manifestation where i went in my entire life.

The media where talking a lot of this event, because the skinheads where supposed to be the author of this evil act, in fact it was made by Satanic's lovers , (totally crazy kids).

If i claim that north-africans originate people are anti-semit , i'll be accusated to be racist


But as the article say except this minority the majority of population is not particulary anti-semit. The problem is the cowardness of some of our political leader and our media.
I would be tax racist if i may suggest that some of the less educated of this north-africans originate people are not well integrated French (you might see in this article that the jews are more integrated : totally true) people, and thus non-representative.

So you see it's hard to speak of racism or anti-semitism

PS ; i know also well integrated north-Africans people with a huge culture and a lot of tolerance. But a cat is a cat, and the violence is coming mostly from one direction. This article is interesting it make understand why frenchs are implicated in a way in the middle east conflict.

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Back from whence ye came, MacMonkey!

Leave the <a href="http://www.dallasnews.com/world/stories/france_11int.ART0.a9b51.html" target="_blank">frenchman</a> alone.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So let's see. The arab/muslim world exports it's terror to France. A country that encourages the terror though apathy and a blind eye. It's Crystal Night all over again.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
[QB]Back from whence ye came, MacMonkey!
<hr></blockquote>

Don't make me post your picture.


Only the mods can ask me to leave, asshole.
It was civil until you stuck your nose where it didn't belong. I misunderstood his grammar at first, now everything is fine.

[quote]Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
<strong>

Why TR instead of Reagan?</strong><hr></blockquote>

"Speak softly and carry a big stick."

[quote]The American jetliners can be full ruddered at full throttle to the point of inversion with no damage. American jetliners are looped, rolled and inverted recovered before they are ever put into production.<hr></blockquote>

Uh huh. <a href="http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/15/boeing.faa/" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/15/boeing.faa/</a>

Or: <a href="http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/transportation/february97/rudder_2-21.html" target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/transportation/february97/rudder_2-21.html</a>

[quote]Originally posted by Timo:
<strong>

Uh huh. <a href="http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/15/boeing.faa/" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/US/9806/15/boeing.faa/</a>

Or: <a href="http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/transportation/february97/rudder_2-21.html" target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/transportation/february97/rudd er_2-21.html</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, those were maintainance problems. The Hydraulics would reverse on the older aricraft for no apparent reason. These are much older aircraft than the Airbus. If you read the PDF file Airbus knew there was a serious srtuctural flaw.

[quote]Originally posted by Timo:
<strong>
"Speak softly and carry a big stick."</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thought so. Problem was TR really wasn't all that big on speaking softly himself.

[quote]"Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." - "The Strenuous Life"

"Is America a weakling, to shrink from the work of the great world powers? No! The young giant of the West stands on a continent and clasps the crest of an ocean in either hand. Our nation, glorious in youth and strength, looks into the future with eager eyes and rejoices as a strong man to run a race." - Letter to John Hay, American Ambassador to the Court of St. James, London, Written in Washington, DC, June 7, 1897<hr></blockquote>

Its so f^cking obviouse!!!

why are some people such ideological buffoons that they can't see that a simplistic duality is being invoked in the ugliest of manipulative ways!!!?!?!?!?

I can't believe the nonsense this thread has been sputtered with. I can't believe powerdoc has been able to keep his calm in front of all the ridiculous rhetoric used here. I can't believe the arrogance I'm seeing here...

[quote] Pull your head out of you own ass and realize that France is useless. We DO NOT need them for anything at all. And they don't like it. <hr></blockquote>

:eek: that's quite probably why France loaned its intelligence sattelites to the US during the Gulf War... wow, I've seen the US's telecommunications infrastructure, and you need all the help you can get from us, believe me... The US' intelligence services aren't even capable of providing non-outdated maps to your bombers... oops, there goes the chinese embassy... The US' SWAT teams are trained according to RAID training methods. Hell the US is suffering an energy crisis in the 21st century. The very protocol you're using to post this nonsense was created in Switzerland. You're a joke, buddy.

[quote] France needs to worry about selling defective Airbus Industrie products to the US.

If they continue handle foreign policy like they build aircraft, God help them

I hold a pilot's certificate and fly an aerobatic American Champion Aircraft Super Decathlon.
I know the reality of turning the fan off, so go pound some pebbles up your ass with a pick axe, ground dweller.<hr></blockquote>

Wow, you must be such a competent engineer then... These claims are so ridiculous it's not even funny anymore. No planes are perfect, and when Boeings or DC-10's reliability is questionned, it has nothing to do whatsoever with the engineering. Care to point me to the number of fatal accidents this has caused?

So much ignorance. So much arrogance.

This reminds me of legends in the US about the Concorde... The FAA just couldn't handle not having its own supersonic jet, so it just forbid the Concorde from flying supersonic over American airspace...

[quote] Back from whence ye came, MacMonkey!

Leave the frenchman alone.<hr></blockquote>

And? I hope the point you're trying to make is not that france is an anti-semit country, because race-problems are an order of magnitude more frequent AND violent in the US than anywhere in France... I seem to recall afro-americans being town behing pull-up trucks for over 50 miles, their body parts scattered across the way. And of course the KKK just doesn't exist anymore. wow...


[quote] It's kind of silly to simply ignore his pespective just because it conflicts with yours. Yes, I would say competition between our 2 systems also exposed key weaknesses of the USSR. Others (Gorbachev in particular) have maintained that it was Reykavik that signaled the beginning of the end. But words matter too and Reagan's words mattered a lot.<hr></blockquote>

I'm quite sure after hearing a mediocre-actor-turned-president's speech, Gorbachev just went "oh boy, they're right, we ARE evil, let's just implode"...

There were thousands of factors involved in the fall of the USSR, Reagan's speech most definitely was not one of them.


Making great speeches about the "Evil Axis" does get people all dandy and stuff. It does however convienently omit to say where the Axis came from.

The US's foreign policy is what got it where it is today in the first place. Bin Laden was trained and funded by the CIA. Most bilogical weapons in Irak today were graciously given by the US during the Iran-Irak war to get rid of Iran, along with the scientists. Most weapons the taliban used were given by the US at some point or another.

But of course all this is conveniently forgotten. The US is the center of the world. The US rules the world. The American president is not even capable of being elected with a clear vote, let alone be a competent president...

Perhaps instead of being so egocentric and completely estranged to the world's geo-political equilibrium, you guys should start educating yourselves about what goes on OUTSIDE the US... Try opening your eyes and not be so confident that you are superior to everybody else... Try realizing that every action has a reaction, and that two 767s didn't crash into the WTC just for the sake of it. Arrogance is what killed so many people in the first place. The US' foreign policy has no political agenda. It is a financial maneuver. What happened in Afghanistan would have happened sooner or later, there were important pipelines to be built. The world doesn't revolve around the US. Deal with it.

Actually, I like powerdoc a lot (I think he knows that. He is the first French person I've spoken with online was openly critical of his own nation instead of just the US), it was just an interesting article I saw in the Dallas News.

I'm just trying to keep the dialogue going both ways. America has problems, France has problems. I think we focus on the problems of America sometimes as problems specific to the US when in fact they are common all over the world. And in that, we are all brothers of the human race, not just separate nationalities.

Did that make sense? I'm not sure if it does, but it sounds good!

MAttacks:
I didn't know "go pound some pebbles up your ass with a pick axe, ground dweller." was civil.

Lighten up, you freaks are quite sensitive for conservatives.

(by the way, I like that picture)

wow SYN, your my hero!

[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>The US's foreign policy is what got it where it is today in the first place. Bin Laden was trained and funded by the CIA. Most bilogical weapons in Irak today were graciously given by the US during the Iran-Irak war to get rid of Iran, along with the scientists. Most weapons the taliban used were given by the US at some point or another.</strong><hr></blockquote>

AHHHHH! How many times to I have to read this complete crap! Get your facts straight or STFU!

Oh and before you say "prove me wrong" I'll ask you to prove you're right.

Hahaha... Scott I finally get you... I finally understand that you insult everyone and thing outside of the US because you like to joke around... I mean how could I ever have thought that you were actually that ignorant about world affairs! Wooah! Hahah... yes, you had me for a moment there.

While I generally don't like the way the French think they are the US of Europe (trying to get everything there way and be absolutely stubborn and arrogant), I enjoy it when they launch pro europeanism throughout the world and sometimes win some and sometimes lose some.

Chirac and, before him Mitterand, are impressive leaders that have great knowledge of world affairs and know that sometimes it is best to be low key in foreign affairs than boisterous like the US is sometimes.

And Groverat... while you might think the US (or texas in your case) is the center of the world... well, its the center of your world... If the US were to dissappear, which I hope will never happen, I assure you life WILL go on.

[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>
I'm quite sure after hearing a mediocre-actor-turned-president's speech, Gorbachev just went "oh boy, they're right, we ARE evil, let's just implode"... </strong><hr></blockquote>

You complain about the "nonsense" in this thread and then offer this?

[quote]<strong>There were thousands of factors involved in the fall of the USSR, Reagan's speech most definitely was not one of them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just because you say so? I guess the only factors we need to consider are the ones you've decided were involved.

[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>Hahaha... Scott I finally get you... I finally understand that you insult everyone and thing outside of the US because you like to joke around... I mean how could I ever have thought that you were actually that ignorant about world affairs! Wooah! Hahah... yes, you had me for a moment there.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're saying I'm wrong about syn? Back it up then.

Foreign affairs according to certain melon heads that shall remain nameless (remember not to incriminate yourself!): USA bad! Very bad! Very very bad! They should be more like Europe and embrace the rest of the world as it is.... nothing is perfect!

SYN you're my hero!


NOT!

[quote]I'm just trying to keep the dialogue going both ways. America has problems, France has problems. I think we focus on the problems of America sometimes as problems specific to the US when in fact they are common all over the world. And in that, we are all brothers of the human race, not just separate nationalities.<hr></blockquote>

Very well said. It's true we tend to focus more on the US' problems when each country has its own. However, I do think that the kind of posts we've got here "the US rulez your ass " etc. will not stem from other nationalities. happy to see you're a level-headed person.

[quote] USA bad! Very bad! Very very bad! They should be more like Europe and embrace the rest of the world as it is <hr></blockquote>

Don't put words in my mouth, there is not a singl praise of France in my post. Only criticism of the US. There's a difference between those that you might have trouble understanding.

[quote]AHHHHH! How many times to I have to read this complete crap! Get your facts straight or STFU!

Oh and before you say "prove me wrong" I'll ask you to prove you're right. <hr></blockquote>

I will. Don't worry. I've got to go attend some free engineering classes, and then I'll open your eyes.

[quote] Just because you say so? I guess the only factors we need to consider are the ones you've decided were involved. <hr></blockquote>

Considering I was receiving unbiased information and education about the Cold War while you were hiding under tables for nuclear attack drills, I'd say my information is maybe a tad more accurate than yours.

[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>
Considering I was receiving unbiased information and education about the Cold War while you were hiding under tables for nuclear attack drills, I'd say my information is maybe a tad more accurate than yours.</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is pointless. You know nothing about me and yet you are certain that you are better informed than me. You can say whatever you want but that don't make it so.

The only air raid drill I ever participated in was in Taipei in 1996. And we didn't hide under any desks.

Don't put words in my mouth, there is not a singl praise of France in my post. Only criticism of the US. There's a difference between those that you might have trouble understanding.

Hmm, I didn't mention you by name...

SYN, answer this. Remember Interpol and the Olympics? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

French intelligence. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

Oxymoron?

[quote] You complain about the "nonsense" in this thread and then offer this?


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There were thousands of factors involved in the fall of the USSR, Reagan's speech most definitely was not one of them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just because you say so? I guess the only factors we need to consider are the ones you've decided were involved.

<hr></blockquote>

I think that its really quite simple. THe soviet Union was collapsing for a very long time, due mostly to the intrinsic unworkability of its system, as well as a constant and concerted effort by the West to combat it and to stop the spread of its ideology. Its really pretty damn idiotic to put in the place of that understanding the notion that the second most powerful government in the world freaked out when Reagan called them 'evil' and then spontaneoulsy collapsed.

And this stupid French bashing: I am sick of stupid asshole Americans that take a well rounded critical remark about Bush's foreign policy as an excuse to become xenophobic, ignorant, racist shiitheads.

It bothers me that somehow the prejudice against the French is considered OK here in the states. Sure the French are often as arrogant as we are about pride in their country, and are sometimes a little too easily critical of American culture (which they tend to dismiss as being only strip malls Disney and McDonald's) But these should all still be reasons for discussion not infantile slander and name calling by immature biggots.

[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
... Try realizing that every action has a reaction, and that two 767s didn't crash into the WTC just for the sake of it. Arrogance is what killed so many people in the first place.<hr></blockquote>

SYN, I am quite sympathetic to many of your arguments, but this piece is wrong. US arrogance did not kill 3000 innocent people, 15 or so hijackers (mostly Saudi nationals) killed 3000 people.

Their horrible crime was not "created" by the US any more than my viewpoint was "created" by the US. They are responsible, not American foriegn policy or some other abstract concept. It does your arguments injustice to link American foreign policy (which is otherwise emminently criticizable) with the crime and assault committed by these hijackers.

Hey Timo? Don't you remember Osama bin Laden at the UN expressing his grievances to the world?

Oh wait. That didn't happen. Rather than do that he declared "jihad" like he's done his entire life. From the young age when his father taught him to hate the Jews and use war and violence to express himself.

How can we twist that to blame the US? Hummm? There's got to be a way?

[quote]Originally posted by Timo:
<strong>

SYN, I am quite sympathetic to many of your arguments, but this piece is wrong. US arrogance did not kill 3000 innocent people, 15 or so hijackers (mostly Saudi nationals) killed 3000 people.

Their horrible crime was not "created" by the US any more than my viewpoint was "created" by the US. They are responsible, not American foriegn policy or some other abstract concept. It does your arguments injustice to link American foreign policy (which is otherwise emminently criticizable) with the crime and assault committed by these hijackers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think that Syn is just little upset by all the bashing against France, and he get angry. Some people (not you Timo) must realize that the french member of AI are not particulary anti-american. If it was the case i doubt that thei'll spent hours on AI.

I think that the 9-11 has traumatized many people in US, before that US people where feeling to live in a safe country, a sort of sanctuary. Suddenly they realize that this time is finish. US suddenly discover that he has strong ennemy who can hurt themself inside.That''s bad,but we cannot do anything to change that matter of fact.
Europe , and many of world was fully behind the US during 3months. USA has defeat The Taliban in afghanistan, and desorganised AL Quaeda (but not totally destroy it : very difficult).
The war in Afhganistan is finish, and by the way the automatic support of the US foreign policy is also finish, and other countries are becoming to be independant for their foreign policies as before.For european country the mourning is finish and life has to go back. For USA the mourning is not finish for obvious reasons, and some people here does not understand that, they want Europe to be fully behind her for ever (or until that terrorism is finish : i fear that's it represant the same amount of time). That's why some people here think that any criticism against the US is considering to be an attack. It's normal to defend our country against criticisms, but we should not becoming paranoiac. Paranoia has never solved any problems , it only create mores.

I use to know the old AI before the crash, i don't remember to have seen such bashing between US and Europe before.

If Europe were a little more even handed that would be nice. Rather than fly off the handel ever time they see a brown skinned person bound and blindfolded while in transport from a war zone to a detention center. Also if they could apply the same rules to every aspect of this war that would be nice too.

But why do that when you can allow your envy to cloud your thinking and allow yourself to bash the US at every turn?

It blows me away that Europe is little more than a dissfucntional family that has nothing better to do than point the finger at US while they ignore the dog shitting in their own back yard. They fail over and over again to solve problems in their own back yard and then blame the US for everything.

Grow some balls Europe.

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>I
But why do that when you can allow your envy to cloud your thinking and allow yourself to bash the US at every turn?</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you read my posts more carrefully you will discover that i am not bashing US at every turn, i just said i was not OK with the speech of bush, i was saying also that i find that the way Bush conduct his task since now was OK for me. My only criticism (call that bashing if you want) was this speech.
Perthaps it's a crime of "lese majeste" to have a criticism concerning Bush.

Scott, it's not easy when you wake up in the morning and find out that half the countries on your continent have changed names overnight.

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Scott, it's not easy when you wake up in the morning and find out that half the countries on your continent have changed names overnight.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yea that's my point. When Europe is perfect then they can speak up. Considering they are the source of most of the fighting in the 20 century I'd say they have some work to do.


Powerdoc my comments weren't directed at you. Just in general.


If France has a problem then take it to Powell and don't use the French press to try to embarrass us. I thought the French were masters at diplomacy? So I can conclude that they intent was to embarrass the US. So...France...**** off. When you get 3000 of your citizens killed we'll be right here ready to help, not embarrass.

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>It blows me away that Europe is little more than a dissfucntional family that has nothing better to do than point the finger at US while they ignore the dog shitting in their own back yard. They fail over and over again to solve problems in their own back yard and then blame the US for everything.

Grow some balls Europe.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you think that the only concern of Europe is to point out the US problems you are wrong. Like everyone Europe is more concerned by is own problems, than by the US.

The french elections for president and deputes is on the way, there is no discussion concerning US, we are concerned by our economies and our safety. You are not the central subject of our life, nor we are the central subject of your life.

Apple outsider is a place to discuss, that's all.

Then deal with the treatment of refugees, for example, in your own ****ing country and when you prefect it then you can turn your nose up and poo poo the US on that subject. Before that STFU.

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>