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Blu-ray vs. every other consumer technology (2010) - Page 7

post #241 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerald apple View Post

Is Bluray really better than regular DVD movies? It is quite expensive to buy.

This is DVD. This is Blu-Ray. Do an A/B comparison at full size and you'll see that Blu-Ray is obviously significantly better. Like I've said before, if a person saw the world the way DVD looks their optometrist would prescribe them some hefty corrective lenses.
post #242 of 421
Has HDCP been well and truly broken?
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post #243 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Stores that sell/rent physical media have little reason to close if people are buying/renting physical media.

Like I said, I haven't seen any DVD resellers closing their doors around here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Yeah..........Amazon sees the future in shipping paper books is so huge that they made the Kindle......hmmmm.......

We are talking about movies, I wasn't aware of the video playback features of the Kindle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

What you don't seem to understand is that companies wouldn't invest billions into entirely new market segments if the change in the market was not happening right now.

What is the market share of digital downloads now? If they have 100% growth this year, they are still miles behind DVD and Blu-ray. The reason they are investing into it now is due to it being the future, it would be pointless to invest in it when everyone else is already doing it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Obviously..........

What is that meant to mean? Why should I be looking at the business activities of companies that have no effect over me? I think you are starting to grasp for things to say now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Its difficult to say they don't break out their individual sales in this way. But yes iTunes as a media store is far bigger than Amazon's media sales.

You made the claim, now back it up. We are talking movies here, so restrict your self to the topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You say this as I ride the New York City subway and see people watching content on portable devices every day.

So what? I watch media on my iPod every day as well. As I have said, I don't live in the US, when I walk the streets locally I see no one watching content on a portable device.

Last time I checked, I couldn't get a digital download comparable to my Blu-ray movies. The best I can get locally are some low bit rate Apple downloads, with only DD audio, which cost more to purchase than a physical disc, and cost more to rent that a physical disc. And with the downloads I have to pay a lot more to download them than a disc costs to post. And to top it off, I have to purchase additional disc to store it on. And the solutions available to me at the moment only work on one manufactures equipment, I am not going to buy a new device just to support a new company renting a digital download.

If you are happy with the solution available to you, then I am pleased for you. If you are happy to praise the 100% growth of the downloads 1% share, then I am pleased for you. Digital downloads and streaming have a long way to go before they are going to be the market leader, they will get there eventually. But personally, until they resolve all their issues, it isn't a path I am willing to go down.
post #244 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

So what? I watch media on my iPod every day as well. As I have said, I don't live in the US, when I walk the streets locally I see no one watching content on a portable device.

I don't live in the US either, and I see people watching video on portable devices in public every day as well. I watched three seasons of Veronica Mars on an iPod Classic!
post #245 of 421
There is little need to keep going round about this. Its pretty clear where its all going.

The funny part is that I actually prefer quality over convenience. But I'm also a realist.

For the majority of people the ability to get something while sitting on your couch in your underwear will trump quality every time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

If you are happy with the solution available to you, then I am pleased for you. If you are happy to praise the 100% growth of the downloads 1% share, then I am pleased for you. Digital downloads and streaming have a long way to go before they are going to be the market leader, they will get there eventually. But personally, until they resolve all their issues, it isn't a path I am willing to go down.
post #246 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The funny part is that I actually prefer quality over convenience. But I'm also a realist.

What is that meant to mean? So I'm not a realist because the current solution is a better fit for me? I'm not a realist because I don't want to pay more for a lesser product? Fine...

I haven't disagreed with what the future product is going to be, I just said what you are experiencing and what others are experiencing are very different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

For the majority of people the ability to get something while sitting on your couch in your underwear will trump quality every time.

Yes, it is a sad state of affairs these days when we happy to see how lazy we have become.
post #247 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I don't live in the US either, and I see people watching video on portable devices in public every day as well. I watched three seasons of Veronica Mars on an iPod Classic!

I do the same, I watch tv, movies and podcasts all the time on my Classic. Maybe I don't see people doing it as I walk most places, it is a little dangerous to walk and watch tv.
post #248 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

This part bears repeating:



And yet Apple continues to force-feed their customers digital downloads as a sad alternative to blu-ray, which they're waiting to "really catch on" before adopting.

BD is already dead in many ways .

All the bullshit involved with discs /packaging /shipping /retailing/driving to the store and then watching >>legally blonde 3 in BD >> FOR $35 BUCKS . Compare this to a steamed APPLE HD movie or watching tons of HD content from Verizon Fios makes this whole thing a no brainer .

Of course i will buy any blu ray movie like 2012 or Transformer or Terminator . <<funny how they give me a digital copy included >> Top action movies that i will watch over and over are worth the hassle to go out and buy a blue ray disc .

My > Dinner with Andre < is not/.

The future in the end will be massive server farms holding all of our content safe and secure and all the pirates and disc makers slowly fade into the ground.


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post #249 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Sto

You say this as I ride the New York City subway and see people watching content on portable devices every day.

I RIDE the one train uptown and watch media content on my mac/ipod. And i now see IPADS showing up on the subway also .

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post #250 of 421
Blockbuster has filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy: Blockbuster Goes Bust

In less than one year, we've seen the top two physical media rental chains go bankrupt.

I sooo should have invested in Netflix. Its stock has gone up 253% over the last year!'

Edit: Here's a telling graph from the consumerist:
post #251 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

In less than one year, we've seen the top two physical media rental chains go bankrupt.

Reading that article, it seems Blockbuster drove itself down, and people needed any reason to leave them.

Remember, the behavior in the US doesn't match the entire world, like I have said, the only real digital download option here is Apple, and they charge nearly twice what the local video store does for a rental.
post #252 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep View Post

BD is already dead in many ways ...

i disagree. the format has been on the consumer market, worldwide, since June 2006 and its adoption continues forward. Blu-ray is a viable alternative to digital downloads. it'll be interesting see how both forms of media distribution will fare in 2015 and beyond.
post #253 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by emacs72 View Post

i disagree. the format has been on the consumer market, worldwide, since June 2006 and its adoption continues forward. Blu-ray is a viable alternative to digital downloads. it'll be interesting see how both forms of media distribution will fare in 2015 and beyond.

Don't forget that DVD is still a very strong digital format worldwide and it may still be one of the major media format in 2015.
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post #254 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

Don't forget that DVD is still a very strong digital format worldwide and it may still be one of the major media format in 2015.

yes. physical media will be around for quite some time. inexpensive and reliable high speed connectivity to the Internet is not as ubiquitous as some people like to believe.

one of the most connected countries in the world, South Korea, won't have 100Mbps as a standard until 2013. Seoul will be the exception where its current 100Mbps services will be upgraded to 1Gbps by 2013. aside from Hong Kong, Singapore, the Netherlands and Finland, everyone else is likely far behind the curve (or will provide these high speeds at high cost to the consumer).
post #255 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by emacs72 View Post

yes. physical media will be around for quite some time. inexpensive and reliable high speed connectivity to the Internet is not as ubiquitous as some people like to believe.

one of the most connected countries in the world, South Korea, won't have 100Mbps as a standard until 2013. Seoul will be the exception where its current 100Mbps services will be upgraded to 1Gbps by 2013. aside from Hong Kong, Singapore, the Netherlands and Finland, everyone else is likely far behind the curve (or will provide these high speeds at high cost to the consumer).

I was in Barcelona couple of weeks ago and internet connection to check emails were just plain pain.

Atleast, some countries are more capable than others when it comes to streaming contents. It is definitely getting better for most tech savy countries creating the market for streaming technology. I wouldn't expect every country to be on board, but key countries are coming along for streaming content market.
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post #256 of 421
Netflix streaming is about to make another leap forward on the PS3 with 1080i, 5.1, and an improved UI!
http://gizmodo.com/5663821/netflix-s...disc-required3

It is great how every platform is actively striving to improve their viewing experience. The heavy competition is really working out for us consumers. And I include blu-ray in that competition as well. It seems that every major tech corporation is sinking millions into these products and services.

Now if only copyright holders would get their acts together and stop dragging their feet!
post #257 of 421
The fact is that Netflix members are already watching more TV episodes and movies streamed instantly over the Internet than on DVDs, and we expect that trend to continue.

The Netflix Blog
post #258 of 421
Just to wrap up on the BD progress against all other formats, it's not winning anything anytime soon.

I finally did get a standaone BD player to support 3D, Panasonic BDT300, and it is still very sluggish to start up BD movies. It's really quick with boot up and opening the tray, though.

BD Live is still a beta quality format, causing more trouble than adding any values.

Now onto the streaming format thriving and being offered on most newer BD players these days and Netflix and Vudu offering SD/HD streaming contents, there is no doubt it's being adopted much quicker than any other video formats we've seen. Well, at least for those living in the place with available broadband.
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post #259 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac View Post

Just to wrap up on the BD progress against all other formats, it's not winning anything anytime soon.

I finally did get a standaone BD player to support 3D, Panasonic BDT300, and it is still very sluggish to start up BD movies. It's really quick with boot up and opening the tray, though.

BD Live is still a beta quality format, causing more trouble than adding any values.

Now onto the streaming format thriving and being offered on most newer BD players these days and Netflix and Vudu offering SD/HD streaming contents, there is no doubt it's being adopted much quicker than any other video formats we've seen. Well, at least for those living in the place with available broadband.

Thanks Steve Jobs

Blu-Ray is available in RedBox kiosks in the smallest of rural American towns; so much for it going the way of those elusive CD-replacement formats. Blu-ray players are showing up in houses where I least expect them; Apple TVs? Not so much. And the content available on Netflix streaming, especially HD content, is still a joke.
post #260 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Thanks Steve Jobs

Blu-Ray is available in RedBox kiosks in the smallest of rural American towns; so much for it going the way of those elusive CD-replacement formats. Blu-ray players are showing up in houses where I least expect them; Apple TVs? Not so much. And the content available on Netflix streaming, especially HD content, is still a joke.

That's good to hear, but not available in my area, though. Still yet to see one of those boxes with HD contents.

You're right. Streaming anything on a modem speed is a joke. If you like to see what streaming future is like, then try streaming HD trailers from VuDu. It's a free demonstration. Well, if you are able to.
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post #261 of 421
I'm torn on blu-ray. I don't need to replace my DVD player and I only have a 32" LCD. I know blu-ray would look better, but DVD is good enough given how much I use it. I think people like me are the reason blu-ray has grown so slowly. When my DVD player needs replacement, I will definitely buy a blu-ray player, but until then, I'm happy enough with my DVD player.

I think Steve Jobs has looked at the data and realized that people aren't upgrading to blu-ray fast enough to justify the costs of including it. If he wanted to push the format forward as he's done with other standards, it would be easy to include, but I don't think he has an interest in the format gaining any more ground, especially not at Apple's expense.
post #262 of 421
People, it's January 2nd. If you want to continue this decade-long tradition, someone needs to start a 2011 thread.

My suggestion for this year's name is Blu-Ray vs The Internet [2011].

Just my 2¢.
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post #263 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

People, it's January 2nd. If you want to continue this decade-long tradition, someone needs to start a 2011 thread.

My suggestion for this year's name is Blu-Ray vs The Internet [2011].

Just my 2¢.

I would think that the new title should be "The Internet Streaming VOD vs. BD & DVD"

All the original BD supporters on this thread probably have moved onto different hobbies, like PS3 gaming.
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post #264 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The fact is that Netflix members are already watching more TV episodes and movies streamed instantly over the Internet than on DVDs, and we expect that trend to continue.

content owners are looking to change that trend http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0117661420101201 as such, physical media will be around for many years to come.
post #265 of 421
The only reason Netflix has unbalanced streaming options is only because of the content owners. They know people are quickly adopting streaming and are attempting to hold it back as long as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post

Blu-Ray is available in RedBox kiosks in the smallest of rural American towns; so much for it going the way of those elusive CD-replacement formats. Blu-ray players are showing up in houses where I least expect them; Apple TVs? Not so much. And the content available on Netflix streaming, especially HD content, is still a joke.
post #266 of 421
Of course the content owners want to keep physical media going as long as they possibly can. Its far more profitable for them. The music industry tried to do the exact same thing. Attempting to ignore the will of the market did not work out so well for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emacs72 View Post

content owners are looking to change that trend http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0117661420101201 as such, physical media will be around for many years to come.
post #267 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

The music industry tried to do the exact same thing. Attempting to ignore the will of the market did not work out so well for them.

this doesn't change the fact that drumming about the demise of physical media has been grossly premature for more than a decade. music content, streaming or direct downloads, has been widely available since 1998 (courtesy of Justin Frankel and Dmitry Boldyrev with Winamp 2, and Shawn Fanning with Napster) where many people in a first or second world country can still purchase music or films of physical media. one can also claim that music, without the need to purchase a physical copy, was widely available sooner via Usenet, IRC and FTP servers ever since MP3 encoding was standardised in 1991.

yes, i do forsee a time when entertainment will be predominantly available without the option of physical media. this scenario, however, won't be available anytime soon. CDs, DVDs and Blu-rays will be around for years to come. this will be especially true in places where access to reliable and relatively fast broadband connectivity is cost prohibitive.
post #268 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by emacs72 View Post

this will be especially true in places where access to reliable and relatively fast broadband connectivity is cost prohibitive.

Regarding CDs everyone just keeps citing that very same argument.
But this really is not the main problem. These are the real problems:

In a day and age of 3TB hard drives I really do not see why I should buy music with lossy compression.
No matter how good the encoding is today, lossy compression means I'm locked into that very codec.
What am I going to do 5 or 10 years down the line (and I still listen to music I bought 10 years ago) if that codec is no longer supported on the hardware I will own then? I cannot re-encode that music with the then modern codec without a massive loss in audio quality. I will have to purchase that music all over again (take a guess who wants me to do that!)
Yet I'll be OK if I have access to the original lossless version, allowing me a simple re-encode.
I wish iTunes would sell music in AppleLossless, FLAC or WAV formats. But AAC, no thank you.

Also with iTunes the music market effectively got a lot more segmented.
What if I want to buy music from England, France or Japan? No luck. I can't. Not unless I have a UK, French or Japanese credit card and address or somehow organize an iTunes gift voucher from that very country. What a hassle.
If I order a CD via mail order it just works. No segmentation, no hassles.


Long live the CD!
iTunes (or any other digital music store) is just riddled with barriers, limits and long-term pitfalls.
post #269 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobBIT View Post

Regarding CDs everyone just keeps citing that very same argument.
But this really is not the main problem. These are the real problems:

In a day and age of 3TB hard drives I really do not see why I should buy music with lossy compression.
No matter how good the encoding is today, lossy compression means I'm locked into that very codec.
What am I going to do 5 or 10 years down the line (and I still listen to music I bought 10 years ago) if that codec is no longer supported on the hardware I will own then? I cannot re-encode that music with the then modern codec without a massive loss in audio quality. I will have to purchase that music all over again (take a guess who wants me to do that!)
Yet I'll be OK if I have access to the original lossless version, allowing me a simple re-encode.
I wish iTunes would sell music in AppleLossless, FLAC or WAV formats. But AAC, no thank you.

Also with iTunes the music market effectively got a lot more segmented.
What if I want to buy music from England, France or Japan? No luck. I can't. Not unless I have a UK, French or Japanese credit card and address or somehow organize an iTunes gift voucher from that very country. What a hassle.
If I order a CD via mail order it just works. No segmentation, no hassles.


Long live the CD!
iTunes (or any other digital music store) is just riddled with barriers, limits and long-term pitfalls.

What you're saying is certainly true for yourself and other sound quality conscious people. But shouldn't we also acknowledge that for the vast majority of people, "the real problem" isn't the sound quality of music on the iTunes store? I'm in total agreement that higher quality would be better. I too won't buy iTS music because of the low fidelity. But we are but a tiny minority!

Another minor quibble is about "lossy" compression. Note that both aac/mp3 and CDs are lossy. CDs don't have all the audio fidelity of the master; some is lost when converted for red book audio (CD). Granted, more data is lost when converting to aac or mp3. Note that an mp3 or aac file ripped from a master will be better than one ripped from a CD.

Both of these topics are useful when constructing analogies for video distribution. BD AV quality is better than streaming right now and for the immediate future. However, it also seems true that netflix, vudu, and others have reached a level of quality that is good enough for most people.

Your point about segmentation is much more widely applicable. It seems like "the real problem". It is annoying that digital distribution is still being hampered by copyright holders dragging their feet. This is what is really holding back streaming. If netflix had every movie and tv show ever aired, we'd be home free, done, media nirvana would be achieved. There would be nothing else left to accomplish. Well, perhaps bumping up the bitrate every year so that absolutely everyone is satisfied. That nirvana might still be few years out, but we're sooo close now. At times, it already seems as if that nirvana has arrived. On many occasions, what I want to watch or listen to is immediately available.
post #270 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Of course the content owners want to keep physical media going as long as they possibly can. Its far more profitable for them. The music industry tried to do the exact same thing. Attempting to ignore the will of the market did not work out so well for them.

You answered your own question. Physical media is still the will of the market, and it makes them more money, hence why they support it more. Steaming isn't going to be the will of the market for many a year to come.
post #271 of 421
I'm not talking about a total sum game. Where physical media is completely gone. That isn't the point. The point is the clear shift in media distribution.

You don't understand what happened over the past ten years if you don't believe that Napster was the beginning of the end. Everything changed after that.

Do you still go to a major media retailer to purchase CDs and DVDs the way you would have ten years ago?


Quote:
Originally Posted by emacs72 View Post

this doesn't change the fact that drumming about the demise of physical media has been grossly premature for more than a decade. music content, streaming or direct downloads, has been widely available since 1998 (courtesy of Justin Frankel and Dmitry Boldyrev with Winamp 2, and Shawn Fanning with Napster) where many people in a first or second world country can still purchase music or films of physical media. one can also claim that music, without the need to purchase a physical copy, was widely available sooner via Usenet, IRC and FTP servers ever since MP3 encoding was standardised in 1991.

yes, i do forsee a time when entertainment will be predominantly available without the option of physical media. this scenario, however, won't be available anytime soon. CDs, DVDs and Blu-rays will be around for years to come. this will be especially true in places where access to reliable and relatively fast broadband connectivity is cost prohibitive.
post #272 of 421
If physical media was still the will of the market there would continue to be Tower Records, HMV Records, Virgin Mega Store, Blockbuster, Hollywood Video. Why are all the major brick and mortar media stores dust in the wind, or very well soon to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

You answered your own question. Physical media is still the will of the market, and it makes them more money, hence why they support it more. Steaming isn't going to be the will of the market for many a year to come.
post #273 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

If physical media was still the will of the market there would continue to be Tower Records, HMV Records, Virgin Mega Store, Blockbuster, Hollywood Video. Why are all the major brick and mortar media stores dust in the wind, or very well soon to be.

Because of the likes of Amazon.com. As you are an American I thought you would have know about this.

And try to remember, as you are an American you can't speak for all the countries in the world. Digital Downloads have a long way to catch up...
  • Delivery Infrastructure
  • Cost
  • Quality
  • Interoperability

These are just a couple of the issues that Digital Downloads need to overcome before going mainstream.
post #274 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Do you still go to a major media retailer to purchase CDs and DVDs the way you would have ten years ago?

10 years ago I purchased CDs and DVDs at Amazon.com, now I purchase my DVDs and Blu-rays from Amazon.co.uk. Personally the majority of my movie collection have come from online retailers. Now see my experience is different, don't expect your current experience to mirror the entire worlds.
post #275 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Because of the likes of Amazon.com. As you are an American I thought you would have know about this.

Amazon did not absorb the lost brick and mortar sales. Amazon isn't even the largest online retailer of media.

Quote:
And try to remember, as you are an American you can't speak for all the countries in the world. Digital Downloads have a long way to catch up...

There is no need to account for every country in the world. Physical media sales are in decline. That's just a fact.
post #276 of 421
10 years ago Amazon was primarily a book seller. I don't recall them having a large selection of physical media. DVD was still very new in 2001, I don't believe Amazon had any significant presence in DVD sales at that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

10 years ago I purchased CDs and DVDs at Amazon.com, now I purchase my DVDs and Blu-rays from Amazon.co.uk. Personally the majority of my movie collection have come from online retailers. Now see my experience is different, don't expect your current experience to mirror the entire worlds.
post #277 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

You don't understand what happened over the past ten years if you don't believe that Napster was the beginning of the end. Everything changed after that.



Quote:
Do you still go to a major media retailer to purchase CDs and DVDs the way you would have ten years ago?

absolutely, yes.
post #278 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

What you're saying is certainly true for yourself and other sound quality conscious people. But shouldn't we also acknowledge that for the vast majority of people, "the real problem" isn't.

What you're saying is all very true.
Sound quality could always be better. And certainly the few 24bit Audio DVDs I have sound much better than any 'lossless' CD I have.

Though I don't want to get hung up on initial audio quality. The point I tried to make was that re-encoding already lossy quality (e.g. AAC) into yet another lossy format (whatever lossy codec is popular in 10 years) will dramatically reduce overall audio quality.
And I might have to do that if the audio player of my choice in 10 years does not support AAC but only some other, newer format.
It is the 'being locked into having to buy an audio player that supports AAC in 10 years' - or facing a huge loss of audio quality if I have to transcode my AACs - that has me worried.
With CDs I don't have that transcoding fear.

And I really hate the iTunes market segmentation.
I don't just listen to mainstream US pop because there's lots of other fantastic stuff out there from so many different countries. That new British band, or the soundtrack to that French movie or Japanese anime, that Flamenco singer from Spain or the Italian pop star that reminded me of last summer's vacation there. None of these I can purchase in iTunes with my US credit card and address. THAT is what sucks.

And I don't think we can blame copyrights for it, as I can very easily buy all this music - on good ol' CDs.
I think it has more to do with studio bosses abusing this digital distribution as a chance to introduce tiered pricing by country - to milk consumers better.
Something they lost with CDs as these have a more uniform pricing nowadays.
post #279 of 421
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post

Amazon did not absorb the lost brick and mortar sales. Amazon isn't even the largest online retailer of media.

What part of "likes of" did you have the issue with?


[QUOTE=TenoBell;1777109]
There is no need to account for every country in the world. Physical media sales are in decline. That's just a fact.

Yes they are, no one is denying that (actually DVD are decreasing, Blu-ray is continuing to increase in sales and rentals). The issue is Digital Downloads are not increasing at the same rate that physical media is decreasing. That's just a fact.

May I ask what US city you live in? Would it be New York?
post #280 of 421
What store do you buy media from? If you are in the US brick and mortar media stores are absolutely nothing like what they were 10 years ago.

Mostly whats left is Wal-Mart and Target. Both of which mostly carry the most popular music/movies of the moment. Not nearly the depth of selection that Virgin Megastore or Tower used to have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emacs72 View Post

absolutely, yes.
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