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Touchscreen analysis shows iPhone accuracy lead over Droid

post #1 of 57
Thread Starter 
A test comparing the accuracy and sensitivity of smartphone touchscreens across various makers gave the iPhone top marks ahead of HTC's Droid Eris and the Google-branded Nexus One, and much better results than the Motorola Droid.

The results, published by MOTO labs, noted that the company (which has no relation to Motorola) "has years of experience developing products that use capacitive touch, and weve had the opportunity to test many of the latest devices. Our conclusion: All touchscreens are not created not equal."

To demonstrate the differences, MOTO developed a simple test applying finger pressure across the screen using a drawing app. Accurate touchscreen performance comes from a variety of factors, the company reported, noting that screen sensitivity is a combination of hardware component quality and design and software integration.

Under light pressure, the iPhone passed the test with straight, unbroken lines, with only a loss in sensitivity occurring at the extreme edges of the device. The Droid Eris, Nexus One and Droid all experienced stair-stepping accuracy problems.

"On inferior touchscreens, its basically impossible to draw straight lines," MOTO reports. "Instead, the lines look jagged or zig-zag, no matter how slowly you go, because the sensor size is too big, the touch-sampling rate is too low, and/or the algorithms that convert gestures into images are too non-linear to faithfully represent user inputs."

"This is important," MOTO explained, "because quick keyboard use and light flicks on the screen really push the limits of the touch panels ability to sense."



One user commenting on the results wrote, "accuracy does matter, as anyone who has used a Droid vs an iPhone can tell you. It is much easier to accurately touch small HTML links on the iPhone than the Droid without zooming in, as one example. One can definitely feel the difference in everyday use in the greater accuracy the iPhone has over other touchscreen phones."
post #2 of 57
Good to see these things that can’t be easily stated on a spec sheet quantified to some degree.

I wonder how the Palm Pre would do in this test?
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post #3 of 57
Just shows Apples attention to the user experience, they want it so streamlined and fluid. The rumored tablet is lookin to knock us on our ass again, deja vu back to 07.
post #4 of 57
Having both used Droids and owning an iPhone, I can totally support this article. My mothers Droid's touchscreen was a pain to work with, nothing felt fluid or accurate, and fast motions never translated well.
post #5 of 57
Just reaffirms my belief that no matter how fast, advanced, cutting-edge, etc. the hardware may be, it's of absolutely no use if the software is not up to snuff. Vice versa as well. It's what the other manufacturers just refuse to acknowledge in their path to out-do Apple.
post #6 of 57
I'm Apple all the way but to some people other functionality might be more important than precise touch 100% all of the time. i.e. multiple open apps, printing, blah blah blah.

Unless your doing a lot of text I don't see pin point accuracy being that important. Maybe if you want to quickly hide the boobs photo from your boss and accidentally load a shlong shot.
post #7 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The results, published by MOTO labs, noted that the company (which has no relation to Motorola) "has years of experience developing products that use capacitive touch, and weve had the opportunity to test many of the latest devices. Our conclusion: All touchscreens are not created not equal."

I don't not misunderstand that quote.
post #8 of 57
Another story of Apple's superiority.
It doesn't suprise, but lets hear from all the trolls on the board ...
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http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp

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post #9 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

I'm Apple all the way but to some people other functionality might be more important than precise touch 100% all of the time. i.e. multiple open apps, printing, blah blah blah.

Unless your doing a lot of text I don't see pin point accuracy being that important. Maybe if you want to quickly hide the boobs photo from your boss and accidentally load a shlong shot.

It's not the individual actions, it's the sum of the whole experience. Each little inaccuracy adds up to a whole lot of frustration over the life of the device.
post #10 of 57
the only issue with the iPhone screen is that the bottom few pixels of the screen have no detection. Try drawing on the very bottom of the screen in an app like sketches and you cant.

This is the same on the original iPhone, the 3G and also the 3GS

Apart from that the sensors are spot on.

This has also been tested on the Nexus one and although it fairs better than the droid it is still not as good as the iPhone.
post #11 of 57
Nothing beats the iPhone. The rest are just imitators, and will always be playing catch-up. The only phone I will ever use that is not an iPhone, is any other phone made by Apple. The experience can't be matched.
post #12 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolfactor View Post

It's not the individual actions, it's the sum of the whole experience. Each little inaccuracy adds up to a whole lot of frustration over the life of the device.

But the same can be said for missing features i.e. for my own personal uses I quite often find myself needing mail and a translation app open. Or God forbid we have clipboard history. People selling clipboard apps and all they do is let you copy and paste into the app multiple times. You still have to go back into the app, copy and paste what you want then exit then go into the new app i.e. mail and paste into there. All because Apple doesn't allow app monitoring. Some of these $3.00 copy and paste apps have like a bazillion downloads and they're just a fancy UI that lets you paste text one at a time and keep a history.

Come on.

Clipboard history and at least TWO apps open at the same time. Even if they LIMITED the ONE app to MAIL app it would be light years ahead!!!

I still like my iPod Touch though. All of these things could oh so be forgiven if they include them in 4.0.
post #13 of 57
It's free and it's called Notes, they'll even sync with Mail on a Mac via MobileMe if you have it.

Here is some text I cut and pasted using an HTC Magic, Android phone:-

! Check the official statement of Eric Lin(HTC)"The Magic being sold in most of Asia is not a Google experience phone so we have started to put some of the HTC special sauce into Android. That Magic has started to put some of the HTC special sauce into Android. That Magic has Exchange support, a much more responsive and full featured camera application, a custom dialer application with smart dial and additional widgets as well." custom dialer application with smart dial and additional widgets as well."

This is what was copied:-

Check the official statement of Eric Lin(HTC):

"The Magic being sold in most of Asia is not a Google experience phone so we have started to put some of the HTC special sauce into Android. That Magic has Exchange support, a much more responsive and full featured camera application, a custom dialer application with smart dial and additional widgets as well."

You may notice a slight problem with the accuracy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

But the same can be said for missing features i.e. for my own personal uses I quite often find myself needing mail and a translation app open. Or God forbid we have clipboard history. People selling clipboard apps and all they do is let you copy and paste into the app multiple times. You still have to go back into the app, copy and paste what you want then exit then go into the new app i.e. mail and paste into there. All because Apple doesn't allow app monitoring. Some of these $3.00 copy and paste apps have like a bazillion downloads and they're just a fancy UI that lets you paste text one at a time and keep a history.

Come on.

Clipboard history and at least TWO apps open at the same time. Even if they LIMITED the ONE app to MAIL app it would be light years ahead!!!

I still like my iPod Touch though. All of these things could oh so be forgiven if they include them in 4.0.
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post #14 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

It's free and it's called Notes, they'll even sync with Mail on a Mac via MobileMe if you have it.

Notes is NOT clipboard history. Yes we already know you can paste into notes. Heck you can paste into an email draft if you wish.

I want clipboard history that is available with 3rd party apps on OS X. Even if it's not accurate at least I can edit it.
post #15 of 57
I say system because there is more to it than the touch screen sensor. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the sensor isn't the same from one phone to another. In a sense what MOTO is really describing is software behaviour with respect to how to convert user input to on screen graphical elements. On the other hand Apple probably has a big advantage in the lower resolution screen of the iPhone.

Whatever it is I've become a big champion of iPhone dueto the way it behaves. This to me is the key. Yes iPhone has short comings ( multitasking user apps & no scripting come to mind) , but these are overshadowed by the class leading performance of the device overall.

As far as multitasking goes that is a double edge sword. I know my current 3G has limited capability here, in fact it probably would greatly impact usability. But it is clear that such an ability is the only way to deliver some really neat functionality. Further notifications and other work arounds that Apple has talked about are very limited solutions. Multitasking should be a given on the next generation hardware. In the end it is about resources (RAM & Processor performance) and having the ability to use them, one more generation ought to give us those resources.


Dave
post #16 of 57
My experience with both the Droid and the iPhone 3G/3Gs definitely echo this demonstration.

Those who band-wagon jumped onto the Droid instead of waiting for Snapdragon powered alternatives may begin kicking themselves repeatedly now. Unless, of course, they're swamped in denial.

The keyboard sucks, the touch screen sucks... how are you supposed to interact with the phone? Shake it in morse code?
post #17 of 57
This just makes me even more greatful for what apple has managed to achieve.
post #18 of 57
This is difference between a genius CEO vs the others.
80 million iPhones by 2012. That's only 15% of the market.

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post #19 of 57
I wonder how the original and 3G iPhones would compare to the 3GS, as well as how v1.x and v2.x compared to the current iPhone OS version they tested it on.
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post #20 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

I'm Apple all the way but to some people other functionality might be more important than precise touch 100% all of the time. i.e. multiple open apps, printing, blah blah blah.

Unless your doing a lot of text I don't see pin point accuracy being that important. Maybe if you want to quickly hide the boobs photo from your boss and accidentally load a shlong shot.

lol. funny...
post #21 of 57
The time spent editing is longer than the time it takes to open and close Apps on an iPhone especially when the clipboard gets as badly jumbled as in the example from a Google experience Magic running Android 1.5 I gave.

How they coming along with copying from non-text entry fields in Android?

They got system wide cut and paste down pat yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

I want clipboard history that is available with 3rd party apps on OS X. Even if it's not accurate at least I can edit it.
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post #22 of 57
This made my day.
Talk about true technology.

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post #23 of 57
I'd suggest wavy lines mean higher sampling rate. There is always tremor and breathing influence, no man is a robocop.

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post #24 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

But the same can be said for missing features i.e. for my own personal uses I quite often find myself needing mail and a translation app open. Or God forbid we have clipboard history. People selling clipboard apps and all they do is let you copy and paste into the app multiple times. You still have to go back into the app, copy and paste what you want then exit then go into the new app i.e. mail and paste into there. All because Apple doesn't allow app monitoring. Some of these $3.00 copy and paste apps have like a bazillion downloads and they're just a fancy UI that lets you paste text one at a time and keep a history.

Come on.

Clipboard history and at least TWO apps open at the same time. Even if they LIMITED the ONE app to MAIL app it would be light years ahead!!!

I still like my iPod Touch though. All of these things could oh so be forgiven if they include them in 4.0.

I am not sure if this is what you want or even referred to, but "Pastebot"* and its free "Pastebot Sync" app for your Mac are two great clipboard apps. The reviews all rate it at the top

I personally use it with Dragon Dictation on my iPhone ( especially connected on my TomTom Car Kit) which I would rate both 4.5 stars. Note Dragon Dictation**,***, along (as well as Dragon Search) is still free.

*http://tapbots.com/pastebot/
http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews...oard-items.ars
**http://www.dragonmobileapps.com/appl..._overview.html
***http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...-on-iphone.ars
http://www.iphonejd.com/iphone_jd/20...dictation.html
post #25 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

One user commenting on the results wrote, "accuracy does matter, as anyone who has used a Droid vs an iPhone can tell you. It is much easier to accurately touch small HTML links on the iPhone than the Droid without zooming in, as one example. One can definitely feel the difference in everyday use in the greater accuracy the iPhone has over other touchscreen phones."

Am I reading this right???? Is Appleinsder actually using completely unsubstantiated anonymous comments and reporting them as if this were actual verifiable user experiences? I could care less about the argument, but Appleinsider needs someone to tell them that random people posting on the internet don't qualify as trustworthy sources for real world experiences. If Appleinsider feels that its important to draw conclusions beyond the scope of the article they are reporting on, then they should get off their asses and verify this behavior for themselves with a few simple tests (go ahead AI, if you like when other sites link to you and say "Appleinsider is reporting" maybe you should think about meeting some minimal diligence as a journalist and pick up the devices for yourself).

Seriously, would any poster on this forum be dumb enough to post a link to a comment on another forum from a random person and say "you need to read this because this guy over in this other forum says it matters and he says he has tried it out himself and it completely verifies what this article is saying and there's no way the guy could could be lying or exaggerating but it certainly makes sense because he is reinforcing what I want to hear and therefore you really need to read it"

They would be eviscerated.
post #26 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelcruncher View Post

Seriously, would any poster on this forum be dumb enough to post a link to a comment on another forum from a random person and say "you need to read this because this guy over in this other forum says it matters and he says he has tried it out himself and it completely verifies what this article is saying and there's no way the guy could could be lying or exaggerating but it certainly makes sense because he is reinforcing what I want to hear and therefore you really need to read it"

They would be eviscerated.

Unfortunately they do and unfortunately they aren't.

Most of the trollers subsist in the bowels of the earth as evidenced by their commentaries.
post #27 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post

I am not sure if this is what you want or even referred to, but "Pastebot"* and its free "Pastebot Sync" app for your Mac are two great clipboard apps. The reviews all rate it at the top

I personally use it with Dragon Dictation on my iPhone ( especially connected on my TomTom Car Kit) which I would rate both 4.5 stars. Note Dragon Dictation**,***, along (as well as Dragon Search) is still free.

*http://tapbots.com/pastebot/
http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews...oard-items.ars
**http://www.dragonmobileapps.com/appl..._overview.html
***http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/20...-on-iphone.ars
http://www.iphonejd.com/iphone_jd/20...dictation.html

Yes I was talking about them but refuse to give free PR to apps when all they do is store pasted text. I can do the same with Notes. I don't care about the UI. Thanks for the info though. Unfortunately along with countless others who bought that app, I didn't know it wasn't true clipboard history. A lot of the developers have changed their app descriptions because people thought they were getting clipboard history. But it's not their fault they can't monitor other apps.
post #28 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

As far as multitasking goes that is a double edge sword. I know my current 3G has limited capability here, in fact it probably would greatly impact usability. But it is clear that such an ability is the only way to deliver some really neat functionality. Further notifications and other work arounds that Apple has talked about are very limited solutions. Multitasking should be a given on the next generation hardware. In the end it is about resources (RAM & Processor performance) and having the ability to use them, one more generation ought to give us those resources.

The current iPhone 3G[s] (and even the 3G) is perfectly capable of decent multitasking/app backgrounding - I know from personal experience because I've been doing it for quite some time on both of them via the jailbreak app called Backgrounder. Throw in the recently released ProSwitcher and you have a CoverFlow-like UI (or Palm Pre-ish) that makes switching between running apps very smooth and slick.

There's no reason for Apple to have put this off for new hardware other than some anal view of UI they have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I wonder how the original and 3G iPhones would compare to the 3GS, as well as how v1.x and v2.x compared to the current iPhone OS version they tested it on.

The 3G and the 3G[s] use the same glass and digitizer, so they should compare the same, unless processor is involved. That said, I think it's irrelevant. Why would you want to compare Apple's old technology to the NEW technology from Motorola and HTC? That's the same logic as those defending all the faults of the current batch of new Android phones by pointing out that Apple's original iPhones didn't do this or didn't do that. Doesn't matter, does it? Because Apple was the only game in town at the time and the Motorolas and HTCs of that time did nothing. Compare the current available models now, that's all that matters.
post #29 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivan.rnn01 View Post

I'd suggest wavy lines mean higher sampling rate. There is always tremor and breathing influence, no man is a robocop.

I was going to post the same thing. In fact, if you look closely at the video demo, the guy's finger really seems especially unsteady while doing the Droid. I'm not accusing of any malfeasance, but it crossed my mind that the difference was so pronounced against the other two phones that I wondered if MOTO had an agenda to prove.

I'd be much more satisfied with the legitimacy of this comparison if they had used some kind of template to draw the lines, and better yet, some kind of mechanical or robotic finger to do the drawing that absolutely guaranteed no human shakey-finger influenced the test. Yes, in real world the human finger is there, but it would be interesting to see if it's the human finger, or the software, or the hardware that causes the apparent problem.

That said, like someone else mentioned above, I also wondered if the higher resolution, or higher sampling of the faster processor made the difference here, and if Apple will face the same issue. Who knows, maybe Apple chose to forego higher screen resolutions EXACTLY for this reason...?
post #30 of 57
I can back this up, I now had a chance to use both the Droid and CLIQ from Motorola for the past few weeks and the touch screen accuracy is poor at best when compared to any of the iphones and I have used all 3 version. I do not believe it is a hardware issue but the software algorithm that Google is implementing in Android.

I found that on the Motorola phones you point at something and found it missed or selected something else that you did not want. Sometime just moving your hand over the phone or finger near the display will cause one of the feature to be activated.

The other very noticeable issue is when you have other programs running in the background the responsiveness of display varies. You touch the display as you press again only to have it activation another function which you may not have wanted, or worse another delay and you go to press something and the previous touch registered and finally executed and you find yourself 2 or 3 level down a path without know it.

The other thing I notice is when you scroll the display to move across windows or through the app list it will select something in the window or an app and launches it. This is a real pain to deal with.

I think Apple was smart not allowing background tasks, yes these phone can handle it but it comes at a price, Battery life is one of them and responsiveness to the current task you are trying to do. On both the Droid and CLIQ you can have old tasked running without knowing it only to find out 4 or 5 hours later your battery is almost dead. I have to install a process monitor app so I can go and kill processes I no longer want running.
post #31 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

But the same can be said for missing features i.e. for my own personal uses I quite often find myself needing mail and a translation app open. Or God forbid we have clipboard history. People selling clipboard apps and all they do is let you copy and paste into the app multiple times. You still have to go back into the app, copy and paste what you want then exit then go into the new app i.e. mail and paste into there. All because Apple doesn't allow app monitoring. Some of these $3.00 copy and paste apps have like a bazillion downloads and they're just a fancy UI that lets you paste text one at a time and keep a history.

Come on.

Clipboard history and at least TWO apps open at the same time. Even if they LIMITED the ONE app to MAIL app it would be light years ahead!!!

I still like my iPod Touch though. All of these things could oh so be forgiven if they include them in 4.0.

These are all valid points, but the interface is the single most important feature, period.
(Hence the Macintosh computer itself)
post #32 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortedLoop View Post

I was going to post the same thing. In fact, if you look closely at the video demo, the guy's finger really seems especially unsteady while doing the Droid. I'm not accusing of any malfeasance, but it crossed my mind that the difference was so pronounced against the other two phones that I wondered if MOTO had an agenda to prove.

I'd be much more satisfied with the legitimacy of this comparison if they had used some kind of template to draw the lines, and better yet, some kind of mechanical or robotic finger to do the drawing that absolutely guaranteed no human shakey-finger influenced the test. Yes, in real world the human finger is there, but it would be interesting to see if it's the human finger, or the software, or the hardware that causes the apparent problem.

That said, like someone else mentioned above, I also wondered if the higher resolution, or higher sampling of the faster processor made the difference here, and if Apple will face the same issue. Who knows, maybe Apple chose to forego higher screen resolutions EXACTLY for this reason...?

Apple paid attention, while Google/HTC didn't, I dare say. Sampling rate adjustments, programmatic corrections, "whatever" /(c) Steve Ballmer/

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People are lovers, basically. -- Engadget livebloggers at the iPad mini event.

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post #33 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I wonder how the original and 3G iPhones would compare to the 3GS, as well as how v1.x and v2.x compared to the current iPhone OS version they tested it on.

I have all 3 models of iPhone and the screens all perform the exact same way.
post #34 of 57
I assume that Apple doesn't manufacturer its own panels. Do any of the other phones in this comparison use the same panel as Apple?

Judging by the resultsm and the fact that all three phones run the same OS, the Droid, Droid Eris and Nexus One must all use different panels.
post #35 of 57
Hmm, I've just tried that same test on my HTC Hero, and the lines are all smooth and straight, and right to the edge. Of course I used two different apps - MagicMarker and FingerPaint, rather than writing my own - just to check. Maybe writing their own software is the fault here? Or maybe the software I used has its own interpolation algorithms, whilst the iPhone implements it as part of the OS...

As someone else pointed out, it looks like the person's finger was actually very jittery. Hardly a fair or reasonable test.

Background applications work on Android, but applications should be mandated to have a quit option so you can totally exit them. I haven't run out of memory yet, but the device does feel slower after running a load (until I kill them with a task manager - see that Keynote SJ did where he mentions such ridiculousness with WinMo in the past). Then again the Hero is an older design with a CPU that's comparable to the ARM11 in the iPod Touch 2G. The music software doesn't handle gapless playback either (maybe fixed in Android 2.x though...).

The mini-USB port on the HTC Hero (and their other phones) is in fact an 11-pin connector that also has audio signals, but you can also use standard mini-USB chargers. Not quite a dock connector, but not only a USB port.
post #36 of 57
How do you do that?

On the Magic the corner of the plug is cut off, a mini USB won't fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hattig View Post

The mini-USB port on the HTC Hero (and their other phones) is in fact an 11-pin connector that also has audio signals, but you can also use standard mini-USB chargers. Not quite a dock connector, but not only a USB port.
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post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortedLoop View Post

The 3G and the 3G[s] use the same glass and digitizer, so they should compare the same, unless processor is involved. That said, I think it's irrelevant. Why would you want to compare Apple's old technology to the NEW technology from Motorola and HTC?

My interest has nothing to do with the iPhones competition. I want to see if Apple has improved in this area since its first iteration. I am also not convinced that having the digitizer is the only thing. Recall the 3Gs camera getting much better with only firmware update. Processor, drivers, OS-level software can all contribute to how well the data is interpreted, hence my wish to see how previous major releases fair.
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post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post

I think Apple was smart not allowing background tasks, yes these phone can handle it but it comes at a price, Battery life is one of them and responsiveness to the current task you are trying to do. On both the Droid and CLIQ you can have old tasked running without knowing it only to find out 4 or 5 hours later your battery is almost dead. I have to install a process monitor app so I can go and kill processes I no longer want running.

I have to disagree. It's the argument of who knows better, the user or Apple. Frankly, I think I know better how I want to use my device, and what trade-offs I am willing to accept.

Apple could have (should have, IMO) allowed an advanced setting to enable background apps and thrown in a warning that backgrounded apps might chew up battery life at a quicker pace. I certainly don't have any major issues with battery life compared with backgrounding vs not unless the radio is involved (ie, Pandora, iHeart Radio, etc)...and the radio apps chew up the battery whether backgrounded or not.

Granted, Apple is targeting at the masses, not advanced users, and this was fine the first couple of years, but the problem is now that there are serious competitors to the iPhone in both hardware and software, the advanced users may start switching, and as we switch, our recommendations may switch too.

I've advised a dozen or more friends to go to the iPhone the last couple of years. If I switch to Android and start recommending it over the iPhone, I am certain most of those friends will follow along.

Apple shouldn't ignore some of these issues much longer.
post #39 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by success View Post

But the same can be said for missing features i.e. for my own personal uses I quite often find myself needing mail and a translation app open. Or God forbid we have clipboard history. People selling clipboard apps and all they do is let you copy and paste into the app multiple times. You still have to go back into the app, copy and paste what you want then exit then go into the new app i.e. mail and paste into there. All because Apple doesn't allow app monitoring. Some of these $3.00 copy and paste apps have like a bazillion downloads and they're just a fancy UI that lets you paste text one at a time and keep a history.

Come on.

Clipboard history and at least TWO apps open at the same time. Even if they LIMITED the ONE app to MAIL app it would be light years ahead!!!

I still like my iPod Touch though. All of these things could oh so be forgiven if they include them in 4.0.

I agree a 100%. Let say we could switch apps by a gesture motion while holding the home key, like make a circle by going downwards and upwards again, the full-screen app would shrink like a card no seriously and it would roll to the bottom of a stack while the other app in the background would pop-up top. What do you say about that?
post #40 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

My interest has nothing to do with the iPhones competition. I want to see if Apple has improved in this area since its first iteration. I am also not convinced that having the digitizer is the only thing. Recall the 3Gs camera getting much better with only firmware update. Processor, drivers, OS-level software can all contribute to how well the data is interpreted, hence my wish to see how previous major releases fair.


Fair enough. I actually glossed over the reference you made to the prior OS versions when I first read your post...that of course would be interesting.
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