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Claims of camera-equipped Apple tablet disputed - Page 2

post #41 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz View Post

This thing is supposed to be a grand, right? So build costs will run around $500 or less. Cameras are ultra cheap to do, adding no significant cost. Heck, I can buy one in a case for $10; mounted in a tablet where the case is there already... even cheaper.

There are many things that can be done with cameras. Reading bar codes, identifying products, social things, business things, creative things... cameras have proved their utility over and over. If you add communications (wifi hopefully, not so hot on cell, but as long as it has wifi I'll be happy), then the number of things you can do with your camera multiply enormously.

Consequently, the optimum thing to do here is put both a inward facing and an outward facing camera on the tablet. This would provide maximum convenience, functionality, and usability to the user.

Having said that, after Apple's complete and utter FAIL with the camera on the nano and not on the Touch, this could easily be another case of Jobsian myopia-for-your-own-good.

We'll know when it's released. The Orange guy has discredited himself; mr. tech blogger never had any credit to start with.

It was pretty obvious that Apple intended a camera to be in the last Touch but that there was a problem. The area for one was shown in a teardown. Of course Jobs said that Apple didn't intend to do it. That's just corporate speak.
post #42 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

This is probably the most certain of anything said in this thread.

Yeah. So many people are so SURE.

Whatever it is, even my wife, the frugal one, wants to get it when it comes out.

I said we could order it from the web site a few weeks after, but no, she insists we get it at the store. She enjoys the experience.
post #43 of 133
No camera? Not even a webcam?
post #44 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

Why a 5MP camera on the outside? Is taking pictures with a 10" tablet a good idea?

Now days, cam can do more than just pic or vid, Scan bar code, ducs, image search, face detection, etc ... you name it....

most interesting thing is apple's front facing web cam can be hiden under the screen, can't remeber when but pattern filed last year... need to dig it a bit.
post #45 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

This is going to be fun to read in a couple of weeks.

You sound like you have inside knowledge...
post #46 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackhead View Post

You sound like you have inside knowledge...

Yup!

I KNOW that people at Apple will be laughing.
post #47 of 133
Yea, I'm not sure where I side on when it comes to having a camera or not having a camera... the issues to me and I'm quite sure Apple are just as they are with the iPhone and iPod touch...

Attempt to engineer the devices hardware and software in such a way as to minimize the battery usage as much as humanly possible.... and then add another 25% for good measure.

1 - Yes a 10" device will have more room for battery when compared to the iPhone/Touch but the screen is drawing a substantial amount of power too...

2 - Unlike a phone that doesn't see an enormous amount usage for prolonged periods (several hours) of time the tablet is far more likely to provide an experience where you could be making computing demands of it for much greater periods of time... Now ask a heavy iPhone Gamer who does use the phone ALOT each day how long his/her battery lasts... I'm betting it requires a recharge by or before dinner time.

Adding features like video conferencing would be child's play for Apple no questions asked but..

1 - Battery life may be an initial concern...

2 - Apple will purposefully not include it so the Slate v2.0 has some jazzy new stuff to wow people with.

I'm betting a combination of them both are the main reasons why we wouldn't see a camera in the initial tablet. Apple doesn't like to throw everything out in the first release of a brand new product line instead it does one or two major things really well and usually leaves the old timers asking 'Hey why didn't they include ????' but the fact is thats how Apple usually operates.

Did they offer 3G or GPS in the initial iPhone? (no)

Were they super cutting edge technologies that cost too much at the time? (no)

Were they dribbled out later after the phone was a success?

I see no reason why they'd act any differently now...
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post #48 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by nDeng View Post

Now days, cam can do more than just pic or vid, Scan bar code, ducs, image search, face detection, etc ... you name it....

most interesting thing is apple's front facing web cam can be hiden under the screen, can't remeber when but pattern filed last year... need to dig it a bit.

We've all seen that patent, I'd be surprised if it was ready for prime time though. I could see that coming to the tablet at some point, it would make a great scanner.

Your description of what cameras do includes both front and rear facing cameras do. I asked about 5MP rear facing camera. Why would you want to use a 10" tablet to take a picture of a bar code or a person? I see wireless sync between say your iPhone and the tablet (pictures taken on your iPhone wirelessly transfer to the tablet) to be more likely than a rear facing camera on a tablet . I don't see a webcam being there either, but I will admit that it could be. We'll see in a couple weeks.
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post #49 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

My daughter video conferences using her MacBook Pro when she's in school in the UK, and either, when she's back here in the US.

I'm sure she'd find a way to do this with a tablet as well. She said she would.

You guys are thinking too corporate. It shows that you aren't in touch with the younger generation. They figure out ways to do things we wouldn't want to do.

They're way too something, not sure what. My dad is over 80 years old, and we're video chatting now. Neither one of us are exactly members of the younger generation. And it would have been even easier to set up if he was using a Mac.
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post #50 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I can see reasons to include it and exclude it. Video chat is the major reason to include it but how effective and useful will this be. How many people use their webcam for video chats outside of some initial novelty? Will this perpetually wireless device likely running ARM be a prime candidate for video chatting? I can see video chat being more useable on the iPhone than on a tablet.

This is completely off the mark. I can't count the number of people I know who use skype on a daily basis to speak with boses, coworkers, family, and friends over long distances. It doesn't cost anything and you can have a nice video chat and actually see the person over video.

Having said that, I don't know how useful skype would be on a tablet. I know one of the small things about macs that have drawn a lot of people in for the switch from PC are the cool easy things they have like photobooth. I personally know a girl who borrowed her friends macbook when her PC laptop died, and the easy way to take pictures of herself in photobooth and edit them (black and white, sepia, comic book, etc...) won her over and she bought a macbook.

So having the ability to play with photobooth on the go with you tablet could be fun.
post #51 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

We've all seen that patent, I'd be surprised if it was ready for prime time though. I could see that coming to the tablet at some point, it would make a great scanner.

Your description of what cameras do includes both front and rear facing cameras do. I asked about 5MP rear facing camera. Why would you want to use a 10" tablet to take a picture of a bar code or a person? I see wireless sync between say your iPhone and the tablet (pictures taken on your iPhone wirelessly transfer to the tablet) to be more likely than a rear facing camera on a tablet . I don't see a webcam being there either, but I will admit that it could be. We'll see in a couple weeks.

let's think what you can/want to do with it:

Personal: book reading, web browsing, some doc works, music, voice and vid memo and many more ...

on top of personal? is Business: vid conferences, order taking like ipod touch in apple store now, but bigger can do more for other area like in & out guy out there taking your order ( if you are in CA) and it'll be not harder for other business to utilize with all apps available by then... and netbook? DEAD, notebook? i don't have one but won't have one once when tablet is on my hand. i have iphone from the first to 3gs, that's why i don't have a notebook.
post #52 of 133
No camera. No Buy.
post #53 of 133
One is the restrictions some of us have to deal with in respect to cameras. The easiest solution in these cases is to buy devices without cameras. If Apple is indeed targeting the corporate or medical worlds a model without a camera might be a requirement. Especially the medical world where there is an almost irrational demand for privacy.

The second issue is that some of us simply would prefer to not have the possibility of video conferencing built into a cell phone or tablet. Mostly that is due to the fear of having it turned on at the wrong time. ** This is assuming that you can turn it on and off as you see fit. Even outside of the embarrassing moments I'm not too thrilled with the idea of video conferencing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

My daughter video conferences using her MacBook Pro when she's in school in the UK, and either, when she's back here in the US.

For personal use that is great if both parties enjoy it. I'm not here to say it would not be an attractive feature just that there are opposing issues. For Apple the smart thing would be to build device with and without.
Quote:

I'm sure she'd find a way to do this with a tablet as well. She said she would.

Actually I'm really wishing for standard USB ports on the tablet just for things like this. That is adding mobile hardware that Apple for what ever reason decided not to add. More importantly the tablet needs to support a kernel that allows for the installation of drivers.
Quote:

You guys are thinking too corporate. It shows that you aren't in touch with the younger generation. They figure out ways to do things we wouldn't want to do.

Well yes we are thinking corporate in some cases. That due to a solidly engineered tablet having a huge potential here. As to the younger generation that is very likely, I wasn't in touch when I was the younger generation!

However I think you mis something here too. Its the optical alignment of the camera on the tablet. Somebody mentioned the chin issue and frankly I see this as a real problem. A laptop or monitor can put that camera 12 or more inches above the table to make for a much more pleasing image. A table forces you to hand hold it in a pleasing position.



**
As a side note about answering a phone at the wrong time, the other day the phone went off while I was in the head. I instinctively answered it before even realizing that I was lets say tied up. If pervasive use of video phones becomes common that could be very embarrassing. One idea here is to make the feature location aware, so that when you are at Home all video functions get turned off.
post #54 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

I haven't mentioned it much since everyone seems to expect a camera (and also since we know relatively nothing about the tablets specs), but it doesn't actually make sense for this thing to have a camera at all, and personally, I hope there isn't one.

So... we're hoping there's no camera on a product that may not even exist... got it.

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post #55 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesmoth View Post

This is completely off the mark. I can't count the number of people I know who use skype on a daily basis to speak with boses, coworkers, family, and friends over long distances. It doesn't cost anything and you can have a nice video chat and actually see the person over video.

Having said that, I don't know how useful skype would be on a tablet. I know one of the small things about macs that have drawn a lot of people in for the switch from PC are the cool easy things they have like photobooth. I personally know a girl who borrowed her friends macbook when her PC laptop died, and the easy way to take pictures of herself in photobooth and edit them (black and white, sepia, comic book, etc...) won her over and she bought a macbook.

So having the ability to play with photobooth on the go with you tablet could be fun.

Im not sure how I can be completely off the mark when I clearly stated that I can see pros and cons either way.

Your examples about Skype on the tablet mirror my own concerns and the use of PhotoBooth falls into the initial novelty category I mentioned.

Personally, I think it will have a camera because I think it will be focused toward consumers first, corporate later, going by Apples product history.
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post #56 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

So... we're hoping there's no camera on a product that may not even exist... got it.

If it doesnt exist then I assure you there will be no camera.
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post #57 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post

We've all seen that patent, I'd be surprised if it was ready for prime time though. I could see that coming to the tablet at some point, it would make a great scanner.

Your description of what cameras do includes both front and rear facing cameras do. I asked about 5MP rear facing camera. Why would you want to use a 10" tablet to take a picture of a bar code or a person? I see wireless sync between say your iPhone and the tablet (pictures taken on your iPhone wirelessly transfer to the tablet) to be more likely than a rear facing camera on a tablet . I don't see a webcam being there either, but I will admit that it could be. We'll see in a couple weeks.

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post #58 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by nDeng View Post

let's think what you can/want to do with it:

Personal: book reading, web browsing, some doc works, music, voice and vid memo and many more ...

on top of personal? is Business: vid conferences, order taking like ipod touch in apple store now, but bigger can do more for other area like in & out guy out there taking your order ( if you are in CA) and it'll be not harder for other business to utilize with all apps available by then... and netbook? DEAD, notebook? i don't have one but won't have one once when tablet is on my hand. i have iphone from the first to 3gs, that's why i don't have a notebook.

Oh I know there is stuff the tablet would be good for, I was just asking about the camera.
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post #59 of 133
Come on people, this is Apple we are talking about. They will give us just enough to get us to buy it while leaving us wanting more.

The first version won't have a camera. And a year later they will release gen 2 with a camera. Thus keeping the upgrade cycle going strong.
post #60 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrr View Post

No camera. No Buy.

Hehe, I have seen this line a million times when the iPod touch was updated and the camera was "gone"... Still, all indicators point to a record quarter for touch sales.

I do not care if it has one or not; I will buy one, even if it has a camera (and my company will buy 50 or more if/once we can run our custom applications on it, as long as it does support CoreData we are fine). I will not do video chats on it (I look even worse when I have to look 90 degrees down) and using a 10" tablet as a camera is the last thing I need (unless it can truly replace a Linhof Technikardan S).
post #61 of 133
[QUOTE=dreamery;1548303]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Conflicting reports have emerged this week on whether Apple's forthcoming tablet will include a camera, with one company executive suggesting the device could be used for Web conferencing, while a technology pundit disputes those claims.

Who cares? Why don't we just wait and see

Yeas, whatever. I will get excited on the night of the 26th. Sort of like awaiting Santa on Christmas Eve.
post #62 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

Yup!

I KNOW that people at Apple will be laughing.

I don't care.
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post #63 of 133
No doubt the fanboys will spin this into a "there's a good reason why it has no camera" story. Look, it's going to have a camera and you guys are going to change your minds back again. Seriously, form your actual own opinion without trying to feel for what Steve Jobs might want you think. The man doesn't no everything, deal with it. Learn to grow your own viewpoints.
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post #64 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrr View Post

No camera. No Buy.

Precisely what it will have a camera, i.e. a webcam.
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post #65 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

So if a person is wearing a skirt while video conferencing, one has to be careful not to drop the tablet on the floor?

Interesting thought. I agree with no camera, just does not make sense to use a tablet like that, IMO. Angle is wrong, and would not want to hold it still that long. Maybe a external camera would be nice, something that I could mount or put on a bean bag, or use at the desk when hooked to a keyboard.
post #66 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbonner View Post

Interesting thought. I agree with no camera, just does not make sense to use a tablet like that, IMO. Angle is wrong, and would not want to hold it still that long. Maybe a external camera would be nice, something that I could mount or put on a bean bag, or use at the desk when hooked to a keyboard.

Why would the camera angle be wrong?
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post #67 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

No doubt the fanboys will spin this into a "there's a good reason why it has no camera" story. Look, it's going to have a camera and you guys are going to change your minds back again. Seriously, form your actual own opinion without trying to feel for what Steve Jobs might want you think. The man doesn't no everything, deal with it. Learn to grow your own viewpoints.

There is only one reason to leave a camera off the tablet and I said as much above... Apple will include it in a future build perhaps along with GPS. Apple does this crap all the time... The cost of the part isn't even a blip we all know that... its purely a marketing move.
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post #68 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

One is the restrictions some of us have to deal with in respect to cameras. The easiest solution in these cases is to buy devices without cameras. If Apple is indeed targeting the corporate or medical worlds a model without a camera might be a requirement. Especially the medical world where there is an almost irrational demand for privacy.

The second issue is that some of us simply would prefer to not have the possibility of video conferencing built into a cell phone or tablet. Mostly that is due to the fear of having it turned on at the wrong time. ** This is assuming that you can turn it on and off as you see fit. Even outside of the embarrassing moments I'm not too thrilled with the idea of video conferencing.

There's no privacy problem for business or government. Apple already provides a way for business and gov to turn the camera off. There's no reason why it couldn't be done with a tablet s well.

Quote:
For personal use that is great if both parties enjoy it. I'm not here to say it would not be an attractive feature just that there are opposing issues. For Apple the smart thing would be to build device with and without.

No. Too many skeu's. Just the option to turn it off.


Actually I'm really wishing for standard USB ports on the tablet just for things like this. That is adding mobile hardware that Apple for what ever reason decided not to add. More importantly the tablet needs to support a kernel that allows for the installation of drivers.[/quote]

We all hope for some sort of port.

Quote:
Well yes we are thinking corporate in some cases. That due to a solidly engineered tablet having a huge potential here. As to the younger generation that is very likely, I wasn't in touch when I was the younger generation!

However I think you mis something here too. Its the optical alignment of the camera on the tablet. Somebody mentioned the chin issue and frankly I see this as a real problem. A laptop or monitor can put that camera 12 or more inches above the table to make for a much more pleasing image. A table forces you to hand hold it in a pleasing position.

I don't see this as a problem. There are millions of web cams that have been put on the desk, below the monitor. People seem fine with that. In addition, with a Macbook on a table, the camera is below your chin, again, no problem. I don't see why this would be any worse.

Besides that, there are webcams above your head, clipped on top of monitors, no problem there either.

Would it be better if the cam was always at the perfect height, well, from the perspective of a professional in the business (me!), the answer is yes. But people in general don't seem to have a problem with it.

Quote:
As a side note about answering a phone at the wrong time, the other day the phone went off while I was in the head. I instinctively answered it before even realizing that I was lets say tied up. If pervasive use of video phones becomes common that could be very embarrassing. One idea here is to make the feature location aware, so that when you are at Home all video functions get turned off.

I would hope that people get used to it, so that won't happen. The solution is easy. With an incoming call, just like in the SiFi novels, it would default to "no video" unless you specifically turn it on. Not too tough!
post #69 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post

Hehe, I have seen this line a million times when the iPod touch was updated and the camera was "gone"... Still, all indicators point to a record quarter for touch sales.

I do not care if it has one or not; I will buy one, even if it has a camera (and my company will buy 50 or more if/once we can run our custom applications on it, as long as it does support CoreData we are fine). I will not do video chats on it (I look even worse when I have to look 90 degrees down) and using a 10" tablet as a camera is the last thing I need (unless it can truly replace a Linhof Technikardan S).

I haven't used one of those in years. I do still have a few lensboards from my old one.
post #70 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I don't care.

You don't have to.
post #71 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbonner View Post

Interesting thought. I agree with no camera, just does not make sense to use a tablet like that, IMO. Angle is wrong, and would not want to hold it still that long. Maybe a external camera would be nice, something that I could mount or put on a bean bag, or use at the desk when hooked to a keyboard.

I bought a stand for my iPhone, it's very convenient when recharging, or when reading when eating.

http://thoughtout.biz/PED3

I'm sure that they, and others will have stands for a tablet as well, camera or no camera. If you really need to conference, you can get one of them.
post #72 of 133
Well I wanted to throw this thought out since I haven't seen anyone mention it, but some time in 2009 (I believe), there was an AI article detailing an Apple patent that indicated the ability for a device to detect touch input not only through the front/top of a device, but also the bottom/rear of the device.

When I first saw the patent, I thought it was laughingly implausible because, after all, how could you accurately touch control something on a screen/computer's rear without actually flipping it over and looking at it? Then I saw this incredible-looking transparent OLED 14" screen from Samsung at CES 2010. It seriously looks like something out of Star Trek or Minority Report, where the graphical elements pop up on the transparent screen, but you can still see through it.

That got me thinking then, isn't it possible that either with the upcoming tablet, or some future iteration of it, that we may see the use a transparent screen with touch sensing capabilities on BOTH sides of the device, allowing for far more gestures and touch controls then what is currently capable with single-sided touch panels? With transparency in play, you'd be able to see both your fingers on the rear along with the touch controls that you intend to activate from the rear.

Then add to that, the Apple patent that showed a portable device that could slide in and out of a desktop-class screen/computer like a docking station, and all of a sudden you have the makings of not just a tablet, but a whole new device pairing that is both ultra-portable and fully-functional. So maybe this is years off in the future, but it's no longer impossible to imagine on-the-go computing in a tablet format taking off in a big way.
post #73 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingKuei View Post

Well I wanted to throw this thought out since I haven't seen anyone mention it, but some time in 2009 (I believe), there was an AI article detailing an Apple patent that indicated the ability for a device to detect touch input not only through the front/top of a device, but also the bottom/rear of the device
[]


Ive mentioned it more than a few times in other threads. I think it makes sense to have a back panel touch sensitive pad when holding a tablet with two hands like a book. It allows your fingertips to navigate the back while your thumbs can touch the front and your palms are securely holding the device.

What I do care for is the transparent display. While cool looking in Minority Report and Avatar transparent display simply arent practical for text or images. Plus, I dont think we need to see our fingers when using the back panel if the motions are intuitive. Even the unintuitive keyboard is usable without looking and any touchpad would be exceedingly less complex.

BTW, Notion Ink is putting a touchpad on the back of the Pixel Qi touchscreen tablet. I think this is the closest thing in hardware to what we can expect to a mythical Apple tablet. 2 more weeks!
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post #74 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

No doubt the fanboys will spin this into a "there's a good reason why it has no camera" story. Look, it's going to have a camera and you guys are going to change your minds back again. Seriously, form your actual own opinion without trying to feel for what Steve Jobs might want you think. The man doesn't no everything, deal with it. Learn to grow your own viewpoints.

So Apple's wrong and broken when they don't build the machines to the specs you order up, other posters are fanboys if they disagree with your opinions on what needs to come next (which have long since stopped being couched as "opinions" and have become flat statements of fact) and you're Nostradamus because you've been hoping that Apple would release a touch based tablet for the last 4 or 5 years.

You're well on your way to becoming some kind of megalomaniacal super villain.
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post #75 of 133
Apple has a camera in the NANO - and they are not going to put one in the Tablet???
post #76 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrr View Post

Apple has a camera in the NANO - and they are not going to put one in the Tablet???

1) This is a rumour, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

2) The Nano has a very low-grade 0.3Mpx video camera that cant do still shots.

3) The Nano is clearly being put against the Flip video cameras.

4) The Touch doesnt have a camera yet its more expensive than the Nano.
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post #77 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

one company executive suggesting the device could be used for Web conferencing,

Please stop it. Please. TV presenter suggested tablet would be equipped with webcam, having quoted someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Orange on Monday issued a retraction to Richard's statements, and said the executive was "merely confirming that he is aware of the speculation surrounding a launch and that Orange would be delighted to have such a product were it ever available."

Absolutely. The exec's face was only reading: "what exactly do you know? well-well-well hasn't the true story shown up somehow?" Nothing more.

As for tech details, we're expecting tablet to have a camera. Yes, we are.

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post #78 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriamjh View Post

My guess: It will have a camera, but not for video chat. Too much bandwidth required. Video chat is nothing but a gimmick.

We already have iPhone apps that use the camera to read bar codes. Such a function would be very useful for said tablet.

Are you serious? Ever hear of Skype, iChat, etc....I do not know where you live but I can very easily vidchat with my MBP 17 tethered to my iPhone while here in Finland. You see the networks here happen to be very good and very well planned. Can't remember the last time me or any or my co-workers, and friends with iPhones tried to read a bar code.
post #79 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

My daughter video conferences using her MacBook Pro when she's in school in the UK, and either, when she's back here in the US.

I'm sure she'd find a way to do this with a tablet as well. She said she would.

You guys are thinking too corporate. It shows that you aren't in touch with the younger generation. They figure out ways to do things we wouldn't want to do.

Hey melgross. Best post of this thread. Too many are seeing this as the ultimate biz conferencing tool. I immediately saw it as a Skype tool, or iChat tool (finally), or some other way to connect people socially. Why would Apple make this a biz tool when they are not "really" in the biz world in the first place. This tablet, combined with a 3G radio, some wifi (the Nokia N800/N810 series had these capabilities), and the ability to tether would lend itself to a pretty potent device. I bought a 15 inch MBP but realized it was too small after having a 17 inch MBP so I gave it to my daughter. She got all of her friends on Skype, AIM, AOL, etc... and there is nothing but girlish giggling coming out of her room. A table with a cam would be a boon for people such as me who travels often, has a handful of sim cards to put in my legally unlocked iPhone (had to throw that in. ), but can now put them in a larger device and have the same if not better capabilities.
post #80 of 133
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross View Post

My daughter video conferences using her MacBook Pro when she's in school in the UK, and either, when she's back here in the US.

I'm sure she'd find a way to do this with a tablet as well. She said she would.

You guys are thinking too corporate. It shows that you aren't in touch with the younger generation. They figure out ways to do things we wouldn't want to do.

i think all this camera stuff is a smoke screen to hide the stylus
whats in a name ? 
beatles
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whats in a name ? 
beatles
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