Mormons - Page 2

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>NoahJ:

I tried that site but was hit with 6 pop-ups. Find one that isn't so annoying.

I've read plenty of articles pointing out everything from Joe Smith being a pedophile to an alcoholic to a Satan worshipper. I've read about Brigham Young's Pagan rituals and blood sacrifices.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I said nohing one way or the other about the religion, merely pointed to a site that was actually rather well studied. Oh, and when i hit the site I got no popups (the joys of OmniWeb!) so sorry, I did not realize it was so annoying.

btober:

You said:
"I really do not like the Mormon church due to their extremist attempts to "convert" gays."

I would absolutely love for you to show me that the Mormon Church practices in the way you said it did.

"I've read first person accounts as well as met people that have gone through this horrible "program". Some aspects include electric shock therapy and a process where a medication is given to you to make you throw up while viewing gay porn, while some sort of "happy drug" is given to you while viewing the straight variety."

There might be some Mormon guy doing this crap, but I will bet my left testicle it's not the Mormon Church. There is a difference. Hitler carried out the Final Solution, not the Catholic Church.

You are ignorant of the Mormon Church, I don't know what "challenge" I would make to you, but I think your posts thus far have revealed that you don't know very much about this particular subject.

How did you divine that out of my post?

He said "magic underwear". It's a stupid question.

Am I supposed to give a serious answer to a question with such idiotic implications?

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>btober:


but I will bet my left testicle .</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have nothing to say about the mormons church, but you should never bet your testicle (even if you are sure at 100 %) unless you have three of them

haha

Good advice.

I was host to a person visiting the jubilee pageant in upstate New York. You know it Groverat, the big re-enactment of Book of Mormon, with costumes and an ascending Jesus.

This person was doing all sorts of research and read a biography of Smith written by a Mormon . . .could swear it described him as basically close to a conman.


Anyway, I still think that its an amazing thing: because its a religion with apparently a very strong and 'good' moral compass, that is founded on what is so obviously NOT TRUE!!!

Maybe other religions are the same?!?!?

I don't know about other religions (I'm not affiliated with any magor religion. i was baptised catholic but when i got old enough I put an end to that and renounced) and the mormons seem sincere but I don't get the whole Jesus in North America bit. Where is the proof? just a curious question.

Groverat, I'll trust what you say about growing up Mormon, so I have a few questions to ask you:

1) Does the Mormon Church promote the use of aforementioned "holy undergarments" or the similar? If so, for what purpose? If not, did it ever, and why was it stopped if it did? (I ask this, because you seemed to be avoiding the issue at all costs earlier, and I'd honestly like to know about this topic)

2) Does the Mormon Church believe that it is the "true" church, and at the day of atonement, all others will be removed from the earth?

3) What are the origins of the "Pearl of Great Price?"

4) What are ALL the implications of a Mormon marrying a non-Mormon?

5) Where does the Mormon Church believe Zion will exist? What does it believe Zion will be?

6) What does the Mormon Church say is the reason for leaving the 1830 church to follow Brigham Young to Utah?

Like I said, I'd like YOUR input on this, not the link to the LDS web site or the similar.
Please don't think I've got some underlying motivations, because the truth be told, I'm a member of a religion that could be called a "cousin" to the LDS church. My church, however, is really quite different, so I'm striving to find out all the differences between our two faiths.

Whatever, groverat...

&lt;not directed to anyone specific&gt; What is the deal with all the denominations anyway? The Church even? If you are a Christian, the sole "thing" you must believe is that Jesus Christ is your savior and died for your sins on the cross. You don't need anyone else to tell this to you - you can read it yourself in a book. It's called the Bible.

[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: btober ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by CosmoNut:
<strong>
1) Does the Mormon Church promote the use of aforementioned "holy undergarments" or the similar? If so, for what purpose? If not, did it ever, and why was it stopped if it did? (I ask this, because you seemed to be avoiding the issue at all costs earlier, and I'd honestly like to know about this topic)</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree Cosmo. I don't think we'll get a solid answer about the magic underwear. More likely we'll keep hearing feigned offense at our ignorance. At least Steve Young was more forthcoming about it. He actually credited it with saving him from injury in a car crash.

[quote]Originally posted by btober:
<strong>If you are a Christian, the sole "thing" you must believe is that Jesus Christ is your savior and died for your sins on the cross.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I completely agree. Even in my denomination, there's a great deal of contention over questions of denominational stances, etc. To me, in all the muck, the main message and purpose is being missed. That's why I have to wonder about some of the Mormon church's ideals and beliefs, and have asked groverat to clarify.

[quote]Originally posted by btober:
<strong>You don't need anyone else to tell this to you - you can read it yourself in a book. It's called the Bible.

[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: btober ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ah, but what about the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Koran, or any other denomination-specific canon of scripture? What says those aren't as legitimate as the Bible?

Because they were written by man? NEWS FLASH: So was the Bible. Ask God, not man, if a book has truth. Man will always disappoint you.

Nordstrodamus:

This "magic underwear" you talk about are simply called "garments" by Mormons. I don't see the purpose of asking me if Mormons wear them or not when you know very well that they do.

Do you need to ask me the answer to 2+2 as well? How many sources do you need?

It's a stupid question because:
1) You already know the answers.
2) You phrased it in an insulting way.

I wasn't avoiding the question, it's just a stupid question.

CosmoNut:

[quote]Does the Mormon Church promote the use of aforementioned "holy undergarments" or the similar? If so, for what purpose? If not, did it ever, and why was it stopped if it did?<hr></blockquote>

Yes.
They are white, it's a symbolic thing, the closest thing to your body is white, which is a holy color, purity and all that jazz.
Mormons still wear garments today, I don't see what the big deal about them is.

It's not a subject I avoid, it's just irritating when people are so bent on trashing a religion they know nothing about.

[quote]Does the Mormon Church believe that it is the "true" church, and at the day of atonement, all others will be removed from the earth?<hr></blockquote>

What would be the purpose of a religion if you didn't believe you were the right one?

Mormons believe that all the evil people will be removed, not necessarily other churches. Belief in Christ and acceptance of his gospel are the things that keep you "saved" I think.

[quote]What are the origins of the "Pearl of Great Price?"<hr></blockquote>

I know you said no links to LDS websites, but this link has everything I was going to say and I'm too lazy to type it out when I can just link it.

<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/pgp/intrdctr" target="_blank">Introductory note to the PGP</a>

I don't know why a link would be frowned upon, there's nothing sinister going on.

[quote]What are ALL the implications of a Mormon marrying a non-Mormon?<hr></blockquote>

You burn in hell forever. Satan gets to play frisbee with your kidneys and sodomizes you with a flaming pitchfork.

Wait, no, that's what John Tesh will get...

Marrying a non-Mormon doesn't carry any "consequences".
The only problem really would be a lack of religious harmony in the household. A faithful Mormon will want to raise his/her children in the Mormon church and having a mother/father sitting back at the house on Sundays drinking some Bud and watch the game will not help that.

If clogging were very important to me, I wouldn't want to marry an anti-clogger.

[quote]Where does the Mormon Church believe Zion will exist? What does it believe Zion will be?<hr></blockquote>

North America somewhere. Perhaps the contiguous US. I think it's one of those "no one will know until Christ comes again" things.

Zion will be the gathering of those faithful to Christ. Christ will supposedly come back and we'll all be happy and dance around and sing. Or something.

[quote]What does the Mormon Church say is the reason for leaving the 1830 church to follow Brigham Young to Utah?<hr></blockquote>

When the governor of a state essentially declares war on your people it's safe to say it's time to get the hell out of Dodge. Mormons were being lynched and killed, Joseph Smith himself was jailed multiple times and was left unguarded in a cell when a mob came and shot him and his brother to death.

I think it's safe to say that at that point you want to find a place a bit safer.

Someone who asks questions with honest curiosity will get better answers than those who ask insulting questions in an attempt to be clever or cute.

I am not a practicing Mormon, but I have great respect for those who are and so I have little patience for simpletons.

I really hate faiths/religions, call them what you will. They all piss me off big time. GO AWAY.

All religions are to brainwash the followers. You really think that God created the earth in seven days, Jesus came, did a few miracles and was nailed to a cross?, You've been brainwashed. Its so ****ing obviously not true if you have the mental capacity to think it through unbiasedly.

Now, some of the most friendly, genuine, trustworthy people I have met and been friends with have been religious/believers (mainly Christianity). And I have no problem with individuals what so ever.

I believe in all their codes/morals etc, because they make common sense that I believe make the world a better place to live in. But WHEN they tell me that the whole creation thing was created by God, and if you believe, you will be spared come judgement day etc, I just have to smile, and think to myself, what a ****ing idiot!

[quote]Originally posted by MarcUK:
<strong>But WHEN they tell me that the whole creation thing was created by God, and if you believe, you will be spared come judgement day etc, I just have to smile, and think to myself, what a ****ing idiot!</strong><hr></blockquote>

MarkUK, for your sake, you'd better hope you're right.
If you ARE: We Christians are wrong, and we'll all be fine. Case closed.
If you AREN'T: You're in trouble.

I like my odds better than yours.

Groverat, some follow-up questions for you:

1) As far as the garments go, what's the point? So your underwear is white. Big deal. Are their reprecussions or "quiet dissentions" if you don't wear them?

BTW, my underwear is white. Does that mean it's special too?

2) Thanks for the link to the PGP info. I wasn't against links on anything, but I wanted to hear your personal opinions on my questions.

So do I take it the PGP is NOT a canon of scripture then, but more of a book of guidelines, sent down from Joseph Smith Jr. and following administrations? I wonder about this, because in my "LDS cousin" religion, we have nothing of the sort.

3) Obviously, a Mormon woman wouldn't want her husband to stay home drinking Buds on Sunday, but what about those (like myself) who have a strong faith, attend church regularly, and have similar beliefs in Jesus Christ that Mormons do -- but aren't Mormon?

I ask this for clarification and to lead into my next question...

4) What are the differences between being married in a Mormon Temple and not? Is it true that if a Mormon marries a non-Mormon, they CANNOT be married in a temple?

5) What's the deal with the temples anyway? Why can some people enter, and some not enter?

6) I understand the political reasons for leaving for Utah, but from what I know about my church and the Mormons, there was a great dissention between members of the 1830 church. This was another motivating factor for the split.

What's your take on what happened?

[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</p>

[quote]As far as the garments go, what's the point? So your underwear is white. Big deal. Are their reprecussions or "quiet dissentions" if you don't wear them?<hr></blockquote>

Actually, *my* underwear currently is red with fortune cookies on it.

The point? Excellent question, but I think I already answered it. They are special and important based on the condition that you believe in what the Mormons believe.

A Bible is just a stack of paper to an atheist.
Garments are just white pairs of underwear to non-Mormons.

[quote]BTW, my underwear is white. Does that mean it's special too?<hr></blockquote>

Stupid question.

[quote]Thanks for the link to the PGP info. I wasn't against links on anything, but I wanted to hear your personal opinions on my questions.<hr></blockquote>

My personal opinion about the PGP?
I think it's just as plausible as any scripture, if not moreso.
The years and years that the Bible has spent under control of corrupted Popes (in the past) make me far more skeptical of its contents than I would be of the contents of the BOM or the PGP.

(By the way, Mormons read and study the Bible, it's a common misconception that Mormons disregard the Bible, it's simply not true.)

[quote]So do I take it the PGP is NOT a canon of scripture then, but more of a book of guidelines, sent down from Joseph Smith Jr. and following administrations?<hr></blockquote>

Parts of the PGP are translated portions of past books (Abraham, Moses & Matthew) and parts are modern revelation. It's all in that link.

It's a combination of multiple things.

[quote]Obviously, a Mormon woman wouldn't want her husband to stay home drinking Buds on Sunday, but what about those (like myself) who have a strong faith, attend church regularly, and have similar beliefs in Jesus Christ that Mormons do -- but aren't Mormon?<hr></blockquote>

You still wouldn't be attending church with her and it would cause conflict over the child. Family is #1 with Mormons, so it's important to them that their religious beliefs are cohesive.

You obviously don't believe in the tenets of the LDS church, so why would you expect a woman to marry someone who doesn't believe in what she does?

[quote]What are the differences between being married in a Mormon Temple and not? Is it true that if a Mormon marries a non-Mormon, they CANNOT be married in a temple?<hr></blockquote>

There are temple services for married couples, but the actual marriage can take place anywhere and not hold any less value.
Non-Mormons are not allowed to marry in the temple.

[quote]What's the deal with the temples anyway? Why can some people enter, and some not enter?<hr></blockquote>

It's a sacred and spiritual space for Mormons. I don't understand the problem with this, either.

[quote]What's your take on what happened?<hr></blockquote>

I don't know much about the Reorganized church, so me attempting to make comments on it would be an exercise in futility.

If you can be more specific then I'll be glad to talk about it, but as it stands I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.

[quote]Originally posted by CosmoNut:
<strong>

MarkUK, for your sake, you'd better hope you're right.
If you ARE: We Christians are wrong, and we'll all be fine. Case closed.
If you AREN'T: You're in trouble.

I like my odds better than yours.

t ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

If I am right, I accept that when I die thats the end.

If I am wrong, that poses a few interesting thoughts. Namely

1) Im condemned to Hell because I find It difficult to accept a story, rather than the facts of science/evolution. DISPITE the fact that I have led my life with 'Christian' morals and respect and honesty to fellow humans.

2) Suppose the Lord Jesus 'really' did die to save my soul. WTF happens to the muslims/sikhs/Jews etc, who passionately believe they are practising the correct faith, and have made many personal sacrifices in the pursuit of a wrong religion.

3) Suppose Buddah created the world. All you Christians are going to hell too. HAHAHAHA


The fact is no-one really knows for sure. Not even the Pope. He believes, so much that he really thinks its true. But he won't know until he dies. And if heaven doesn't exist, he wont know anyway because he will be dead, so he lived a lie all his life and never found out. HAHAHAHA.

Consider this. Where would human evolution be today if religion was never invented. Imagine the world population worked together and respected every other person on the planet, because they knew that in the big scale of things, the earth is just another speck of dust amongst a billion other equal specs of dust in the universe. And we should realise that if we blow each other to bits in the name of believing our own version of an unsubstantiated story, then that really is the end. For everyone.

The AZTECS used to worship the rain god, and they really believed this with all their heart. You'dd find it pretty dumb if someone in DownTown NY started a raindance for the rainGod. Infact, if they 'really' believed, you'dd probably lock them up. Why is this so stupid today. Simply Knowledge. I'd bet you that at some time in the future, Someone will really discover the origins/purpose of life, and it will make all you believers seem as stupid as a raindancer in NW today.

Religion is either, a) Convienient way to control a population, or b) trying to find a way to explain what isn't knowledge yet.

[quote]Originally posted by CosmoNut:
<strong>

Ah, but what about the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Koran, or any other denomination-specific canon of scripture? What says those aren't as legitimate as the Bible?

Because they were written by man? NEWS FLASH: So was the Bible. Ask God, not man, if a book has truth. Man will always disappoint you.</strong><hr></blockquote>

True, and I probably should have been more clear. I simply meant that there are other guides besides religious administrations who want to take advantage of you. Thanks for pointing this out.

well the lot of y'all dissapoint me...


anyway:

[quote] 3) Suppose Buddah created the world. All you Christians are going to hell too. HAHAHAHA <hr></blockquote>

clearly this shows your ignorance of religion: Buddha was a man (Gautama Siddhartha) who came to enlightenment, he was not a god: enlightenment is a state of non-attachment to the things of the world and the world's sufferings: and in Buddhism, all the world is suffering, suffering all the time, except when it has attained the state of enlightenment. Sometimes called Sunyata: a full emptiness and a blissfull letting be. Buddhism is also an understanding of compassion for all beings, compassion born from an understanding that, essentially, all things are suffering and are all part of the same phenomena of the world.

As far as Religion is concerned I think that there is much good in the passion towards ultimate truths: I just think that there are few that are correct in explicit concept, while there is still an intrinsic correctness to the religious impulse itself.

Much Religion is simply the practical mechanisms of morality that have hardened into structures of good vs evil, and guide-books for how to live, also it is about community. But there is the other side of Religion, beyond morality, that is about the profound relationship of oneself to the ultimate source of all being; in fact to all being (not just the source) --this impulse, when taken wholeheartedly, may ask the church bound to let go of that hand for awhile while they search deeper than dogma, deeper than practical morality that has crusted into rules.

About Hell and Christianity: if you are a Christian because you are afraid of going to hell then you are selfish, which is unChristian of you. Wouldn't it be better to be a Christian because you love God.

About forgiveness: good stuff, a profound attitude. But why would we be in need of being forgiven when we were not responcible for coming into the world, as we are -all screwed up and human?

The way I see it, God is supposed to be all powerfull, therefor whatever God wants God gets: God wants to make me be unable to believe in Christianity and thereby go to hell, then that's what God gets, and because I trust in the universe (omniscient God) then I will love even the hell of it, as I would God.

Buddhism rocks... with all due humility.

MarcUK: No buddhist believes Buddha created the earth or that anyone is going to hell...

to pfflam and others...

Ok you've picked up on the one point Ive messed up on, I admit I hav'nt got a great knowledge of other faiths, but are you debunking my whole point because I've made a mistake. It didn't matter whether I said Buddah or my cat, What happens to all the millions of people who are worshiping the wrong God/leader? Surely its not their fault being born into that culture. They genuinly believe they are worshipping the correct figurehead as much as Christians believe worshipping Jesus is correct. Only one group can be correct, if at all.

Why does Christianity change over time? Thing that would send you too hell a few hundred years ago are perfectly acceptable now. Did those people go to hell a few hundred years ago get a reprise later on when the Church decided that perhaps it isn't so bad after all? Thats just farce.

And pfflam, WTF is your last paragraph saying in English?

Why don't you all try and answer some of the other points I made regardless of whether I made a technical mistake...

[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: MarcUK ]</p>

Hey! Do you have a problem with cats as well????

BTW

I get pretty agressive when discussing faith/religion, because I strongly believe that there is no higher being/God, which is a kind of paradox i guess.

I am not taking pops at you personally, so there is no need to get offended. I love discussing this subject, but no-one can win. You'll never change my belief, and I know I'll never change yours. So let the arguments flow!!!

My last paragraph is my way of saying that my athiesm is God's will and I love even that since I love God so much

[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>My last paragraph is my way of saying that my athiesm is God's will and I love even that since I love God so much</strong><hr></blockquote>

Assuming I understand athiesm correctly (non believer)
Now that is a truly fvcked up statement


[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: MarcUK ]</p>

It's my personal beleif that all religion (mainly christian, jewish and islamic) is a sham for the privledged few to make boatloads of cash. I'm a christian (non denomination) but i don't believe in hell. Hell was made up in the middle ages to scare people into accepting the papal role in christianity. After Christ, christianity has been warped and bent to fit the needs of the higher ups, especially in integrating pagan rituals and beliefss into christianity. I haven't celebrated Christmas for many years. The hypocracy makes me sick.

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>It's my personal beleif that all religion (mainly christian, jewish and islamic) is a sham for the privledged few to make boatloads of cash. I'm a christian (non denomination) but i don't believe in hell. Hell was made up in the middle ages to scare people into accepting the papal role in christianity. After Christ, christianity has been warped and bent to fit the needs of the higher ups, especially in integrating pagan rituals and beliefss into christianity. I haven't celebrated Christmas for many years. The hypocracy makes me sick.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Really? Hell was mdae up in the middle ages? That is interesting. You have any evidence to prove this? Was it just put into the bible at random points for effect? You are basically saying that the Bile is wrong, flawed and not worth the paper it is written on, correct? If that is the case, where does your Moral foundation come from? What is your guidelines you follow? You cannot say the Bible from your view as it is flawed and incorrect. after all if one part is wrong, the whole work becomes suspect. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />

Was it just put into the bible at random points for effect? You are basically saying that the Bile is wrong, flawed and not worth the paper it is written on, correct? If that is the case, where does your Moral foundation come from? What is your guidelines you follow? You cannot say the Bible from your view as it is flawed and incorrect. after all if one part is wrong, the whole work becomes suspect.

Where does it say in the Bible about hell? Book/chapter/verse please. And for extra credit, verses from both the old and new testament.

[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong> [1] About Hell and Christianity: if you are a Christian because you are afraid of going to hell then you are selfish, which is unChristian of you. Wouldn't it be better to be a Christian because you love God.

[2] About forgiveness: good stuff, a profound attitude. But why would we be in need of being forgiven when we were not responcible for coming into the world, as we are -all screwed up and human?

[3]The way I see it, God is supposed to be all powerfull, therefor whatever God wants God gets: God wants to make me be unable to believe in Christianity and thereby go to hell, then that's what God gets, and because I trust in the universe (omniscient God) then I will love even the hell of it, as I would God.</strong><hr></blockquote>

[1] I don't fully agree with you here. Becoming a Christian because you don't want to go to hell is a legitimate reason. If that remains the entire reason of your realtionship with God then you have certainly missed the boat entirely. Besides, you cannot 'become' a christian by just saying, "Gee, I think I want to be a Christian." About the only part we are responsible for is Believing that Jesus is the Christ that died for our sins and asking for forgiveness of said sins. If you don't truly believe, you are not saved. God will not be mocked. He knows lip service when he hears it.

[2] Forgiveness is necessary. Thank Adam and Eve for not being happy with walking with God and listening to the serpent [Satan, or the Adversary in the Hebrew] and eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That introduced sin into the world and because of that sin became a part of Man from that point on. Creation was cursed, but man bears the burden of sin. We are not responsible for being brought into the world, and we are not not responsible for being all screwed up to start with. But we are responsible for continuing to be all screwed up. It all comes down to free will. Which leads into the next statement.

[3] God is all powerful. God can do anything he pleases. God can make a person into a robot that only loves Him and can (has if I read the Bible right) harden a persons response to Him so that they refuse to do what they should do to further His purposes on earth; which He could do without humans if He wanted to.

Free will is at the core of this whole discussion. God created humans for one purpose. To worship Him and for companionship with him. And he gave that creation free will. You choose whether or not to beleive there is a God. You choose whether or not to cuss me out for being a narrow-minded bigot. You choose. There is nothing forcing you to do anything. There are however influences and God will influence you to do what is right (you have a conscience). As will other powers and pricipalities influence you to do whatever you want so long as you can get away with it. Is that getting beyond the scope of this conversation?

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Where does it say in the Bible about hell? Book/chapter/verse please. And for extra credit, verses from both the old and new testament.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Here are a few refrences just to the word hell in the bible.

Matthew
5:22
5:29-30
10:28
18:9
23:15
23:33

Mark
9:43
9:45
9:47

Luke
12:5
16:23

James
3:6

2 Peter
2:4

That is all New Testament and for the most part the Red Letter portion (Jesus Speaking).

I will come up with more as I have more time. Some in Revelations talking about hell, and there is a bit in the OT about it as well, I just cannot recall where right now.

Do any of those explain the nature of Hell as it is understood today? Buning forever in fire? I don't have a Bible here at work but I'll look when I get home. Also what translation are you using? Are you interpreting the words Sheol and Gehenna as hell? The word hell is translated from the Hebrew word in the Old Testament "Sheol" which means "the place of the dead". In the New Testament the word is "Hades". The Greek word "Gehenna" is also used. "Gehenna" is translated to mean "a place of retribution for evil deeds."

I'm not good at writing rebuttles but I read <a href="http://homepages.which.net/~radical.faith/holloway/gresham%205%20pt%201.htm" target="_blank">this</a> and I saw many of his points were well written. Now if you critisize the artcle remember I didn't write it, simply thought it was interesting.

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>Do any of those explain the nature of Hell as it is understood today? Buning forever in fire? I don't have a Bible here at work but I'll look when I get home. Also what translation are you using? Are you interpreting the words Sheol and Gehenna as hell? The word hell is translated from the Hebrew word in the Old Testament "Sheol" which means "the place of the dead". In the New Testament the word is "Hades". The Greek word "Gehenna" is also used. "Gehenna" is translated to mean "a place of retribution for evil deeds."

I'm not good at writing rebuttles but I read <a href="http://homepages.which.net/~radical.faith/holloway/gresham%205%20pt%201.htm" target="_blank">this</a> and I saw many of his points were well written. Now if you critisize the artcle remember I didn't write it, simply thought it was interesting.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I can't read that right now, but I probably will later. As far as explaining hell as it is understood now, some of them talk about te fire of hell such as Matthew 5:22 in the last sentence. I am using the NIV Bible. (Nearly Inspired Version ) I am not sure about translations but I have heard many who say that NIV is very good as is New King James Version.

And as far as nitpicking what the literal translation of the Hebrew is for certain words, I usally let the scholars who wrote the translation I am reading handle that as I do not know Hebrew. Have you studied Hebrew? How many Years?

Aaaaah just have to love to the highest almighty that best of all God loving athiests James Joyce!!!

Read part of the article. It is easy to wite something where you pick that which makes your case. It is what many Christians are accused of doing time and time again. YOu cannot approach this issue on that level. People have a personal interest in believing and proving that there is no hell. Because if there is, a lot of people are going to be very uncomfortable forever.

Ont the other side of the coin, do I beleive that hell is all flames and torture by physical mistreatment. Maybe not. My interpretation of hell is much simpler. Hell is complete and total absence of God. Since God is everywhere here on Earth, this is not hell (although it sure seems likeit sometimes). But I think God will not be present in hell at all, and without God there is no love, no peace, no joy, no hope, no kindness, no self-control, no goodness, no faithfulness. These are all fruits of the Spirit. They cannot grow without water so hell will be spiritual death, which will be quite torturous I am sure.

Not so pictoral as fire and brimstone, But still not a nice thought.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
This "magic underwear" you talk about are simply called "garments" by Mormons. I don't see the purpose of asking me if Mormons wear them or not when you know very well that they do... They are special and important based on the condition that you believe in what the Mormons believe..</strong>

"Holy," "Magic," "Special"... whatever... you're still ducking the question about how they are "special." Yes, I know that they wear them and that Steve Young credits them with sparing him injury in a car crash. So why don't you pull upon your vastly superior knowledge of the faith and edify us about their meaning without acting like their just another pair of Hanes.

Also, could you please explain what aspects of a religion are open to criticism or humor since the requirement for "holy undergarmets" an untouchable issue to you? Am I allowed to criticize the use of Burkhas by the Taliban? Can I make fun of the use of E-meters by scientologists? How about Madam Cleo's tarot card readings? What about that UFO cult that wants to clone themselves?

BTW, repeatedly calling all questions "stupid" is an incredibly powerful counter argument. I stand in awe.

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Nordstrodamus ]</p>

I already talked about garments, what further explanation do you require? Do you have a specific question?

[quote]Also, could you please explain what aspects of a religion are open to criticism or humor since the requirement for "holy undergarmets" an untouchable issue to you?<hr></blockquote>

You can criticize anything you like, I haven't violated your right to do so.
I will disapprove, but if that's your problem then you need thicker skin if you're going to be attacking people and religions.

[quote] Am I allowed to criticize the use of Burkhas by the Taliban? Can I make fun of the use of E-meters by scientologists? How about Madam Cleo's tarot card readings? What about that UFO cult that wants to clone themselves?<hr></blockquote>

Sure, have at.

Just don't expect every person you encounter to bow at your feet and praise you for being critical.

It is your right to criticize, as it is mine. I choose to criticize your criticism. Am I not allowed to do that?

Hell is complete and total absence of God. Since God is everywhere here on Earth, this is not hell (although it sure seems likeit sometimes). But I think God will not be present in hell at all, and without God there is no love, no peace, no joy, no hope, no kindness, no self-control, no goodness, no faithfulness.

I can agree with that. I'm against the notion that hell is a firery place of torture (like demons anally poking you with splintery sticks and such). But if you're idea of the word translated as hell is what you spoke of then I'm in accordance.

On the other hand maybe I have pointy sticks in my future.

Well, that seems like hell to me, even without the pointy sticks...

I would agree with that in a poetical sense....


But if logic were true: By the definition of God as omnipresent and omniscient, there is no place God would not be: in fact there couldn't be a place without God: if there were, then the definition of omniscience and omnipresents would not be true: because that would mean that God lacked that place: Omniscience by definition lacks nothing. Therefor God is also in Hell: and therefor there is no complete and total absence of God. It is a logical impossibility.

My definition of God would have to be similar to Spinoza: God is that who's substance it is to Be.

and following that, but more elaborately, Heidegger and his ideas about the difference between Beings (things in the world) and Being.

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>