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Apple hits back at Nokia, asks ITC to ban handset imports

post #1 of 86
Thread Starter 
The ongoing patent and licensing dispute between handset makers Apple and Nokia took yet another twist this week, as the iPhone maker has asked the International Trade Commission to ban the import of Nokia's phones into the U.S.

Apple's latest move is in response to a move in December from Nokia, when it too asked the ITC to ban the import of Apple products. This week's latest patent infringement suit is the latest in a list of legal battles the two companies are engaged in.

A notice of complaint from Apple was posted on the ITC Web site Friday without any detail. The ITC oversees U.S. trade and deals with matters that include patent infringement.

The battle first began in October, when Nokia sued Apple over the use of patented wireless standards. Nokia has alleged that the iPhone maker has infringed on GSM and wireless LAN related patents it owns.

Two months later, Apple countersued Nokia over its own patented technologies. Apple has alleged that Nokia has attempted to obtain more money from it than other companies, as well as rights to Apple's intellectual property.

Nokia previously asked the ITC to ban the import of Apple products, including iPhones, iPods and MacBooks, into the U.S. Nokia's ITC complaint accuses Apple of treading on seven distinct patents applying to user interface, camera, antenna and power management.
post #2 of 86
Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD)

What sore losers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutuall...ed_destruction
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post #3 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Nokia previously asked the ITC to ban the import of Apple products, including iPhones, iPods and MacBooks, into the U.S.

Wait, Nokia asked the US to ban a US company's products from its own market? Good luck with that, Nokia. I sincerely hope they lose this one, given that the Macbook and iPod series doesn't even have ANYTHING to do with their patent infringement, if Apple even infringed at all. Nokia's just being stupid here.
post #4 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartfat View Post

Wait, Nokia asked the US to ban a US company's products from its own market? Good luck with that, Nokia. I sincerely hope they lose this one, given that the Macbook series doesn't even have ANYTHING to do with their patent infringement, if Apple even infringed at all. Nokia's just being stupid here.

If Apple had nothing to fear they'd simply march into the courtroom and have it dealt with. There's always an outside chance they might come out of the wrong of this. These are simply negotiating tactics.

Draw swords!
post #5 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartfat View Post

Wait, Nokia asked the US to ban a US company's products from its own market?

No Nokia asked the U.S. International Trade Commission to ban the import of Apple products into the U.S.

Apple has their products made in China or Taiwan, perhaps other places too, like in Europe.
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post #6 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post


Speaking of China, seems they are cracking down on text messages too. So the business environment is souring there in a hurry. Apple should pull their manufacturing out fast and re-establish back in the U.S., that will make Nokia have to revise their lawsuit and make it less easier to enact the ban.

Your posts have a pattern now I realise. They start with a fact that you have read somewhere; followed by an assertion that is simply wrong; followed by a conclusion that is breathtaking in its stupidity. Nobody can be such an idiot. I now suspect that you are in fact merely playing with the boring conventions of logic, wisdom, common sense etc and that we should all recognise and bow before your genius.

I await your next prose-poem with barely contained anticipation.
post #7 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

If Apple had nothing to fear they'd simply march into the courtroom and have it dealt with. There's always an outside chance they might come out of the wrong of this. These are simply negotiating tactics.

Draw swords!

I agree. I think they are both posturing. Apple needs Nokia technology and Nokia needs Apple's UI know how. They will posture, threaten, argue, etc.. Lawyers will get fatter, and in the end it will be quietly settled outside of a courthouse. I would be surprised to see headlines announcing: "Noka and Apple reach agreement. Both parties agree to forge new bold initiatives into mobile technologies."
post #8 of 86
I would prefer to see Nokia get knocked out. This would ease the pain I had with their phones. Of all the phones I used, and that where a lot the last 10 years the ones from Nokia where the worst. It's impossible that Apple ripped Nokia technology because wouldn't that make the iPhone a crappy product as well?
post #9 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsherly View Post

If Apple had nothing to fear they'd simply march into the courtroom and have it dealt with. There's always an outside chance they might come out of the wrong of this. These are simply negotiating tactics.

Draw swords!

As an apropos example of things not going your way in court despite overwhelming confidence is Apple Computer v. Apple Corps. Apple Corps sued and won and/or settled with Apple Computer several times over nearly 3 decacdes, but in 2003 they sued Apple Computer yet again for the iTunes Music Store which Apple Corps felt violated their previous agreement. Apple Computer offered them $1M, but Apple Corps rejected it and went to court for $500M. Not only did Apple Corps lose they had to pay their own legal fees on top of $2.78M they had to pay Apple Computers. Talk about a backfire.
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post #10 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

I agree. I think they are both posturing. Apple needs Nokia technology and Nokia needs Apple's UI know how. They will posture, threaten, argue, etc.. Lawyers will get fatter, and in the end it will be quietly settled outside of a courthouse. I would be surprised to see headlines announcing: "Noka and Apple reach agreement. Both parties agree to forge new bold initiatives into mobile technologies."

The thing is, Nokia's technology has been incorporated into handset standards, which is why they are more or less obliged to license it at standard rates.

Whereas there is no reason on earth Apple should be obliged to provide Nokia with "UI know how."

If it's true that Nokia has attempted to jack up Apple by demanding out of line licensing fees for tech that they license to every other phone manufacturer for less, I can't see where that's not going to be a problem for them in court.
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post #11 of 86
Perhaps there are legitimate claims here.

But right now both Apple and Nokia sound like a couple going through a bad divorce.
post #12 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

The thing is, Nokia's technology has been incorporated into handset standards, which is why they are more or less obliged to license it at standard rates.

Whereas there is no reason on earth Apple should be obliged to provide Nokia with "UI know how."

If it's true that Nokia has attempted to jack up Apple by demanding out of line licensing fees for tech that they license to every other phone manufacturer for less, I can't see where that's not going to be a problem for them in court.

You have a point. I am really concerned more about the fact that Nokia only wants 10 very specific patents examined rather than a blanket infringement. This is where Apple may have problems.
post #13 of 86
I cornered beast fights hardest. It seems to me that Nokia is scared of Apple's rapid progress into smartphones, and they don't have a suitable programme to counter Apple. They're playing for time to get their house in order. Otherwise (if you believe what Apple has said), Nokia would have granted Aplple the same licensing terms as every other company.
post #14 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

in the end it will be quietly settled outside of a courthouse.

Maybe a pistol duel? Or a good old cat fight? Though neither are especially quiet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

I would be surprised to see headlines announcing: "Noka and Apple reach agreement. Both parties agree to forge new bold initiatives into mobile technologies."

The headline will be "Nokia and Apple reach agreement. Both decline further comment."
post #15 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by sippincider View Post

Maybe a pistol duel? Or a good old cat fight? Though neither are especially quiet.



The headline will be "Nokia and Apple reach agreement. Both decline further comment."

I like yours better.
post #16 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartfat View Post

Wait, Nokia asked the US to ban a US company's products from its own market? Good luck with that, Nokia. I sincerely hope they lose this one, given that the Macbook and iPod series doesn't even have ANYTHING to do with their patent infringement, if Apple even infringed at all. Nokia's just being stupid here.

They are both international companies. Their products have multiple countries of origin and sell around the world.
post #17 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinney57 View Post

Your posts have a pattern now I realise. They start with a fact that you have read somewhere; followed by an assertion that is simply wrong; followed by a conclusion that is breathtaking in its stupidity. Nobody can be such an idiot. I now suspect that you are in fact merely playing with the boring conventions of logic, wisdom, common sense etc and that we should all recognise and bow before your genius.

And so he embodies the spirit of that once-lived member......techstud.
May he never live again.
GIGO. The truth in all of life.
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post #18 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiles77 View Post

And so he embodies the spirit of that once-lived member......techstud.
May he never live again.

nah mac tripper is truly insane

repeating the same mantra over and over shows cracks in his .....

on topic

nokia better becareful
apple will bite it
whats in a name ? 
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post #19 of 86
woohoo! corporate pissing contest!
post #20 of 86
I would love to see a well though out legal based opinion on all these law suits. Everything else is wild speculation.
post #21 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinney57 View Post

Your posts have a pattern now I realise. They start with a fact that you have read somewhere; followed by an assertion that is simply wrong; followed by a conclusion that is breathtaking in its stupidity. Nobody can be such an idiot. I now suspect that you are in fact merely playing with the boring conventions of logic, wisdom, common sense etc and that we should all recognise and bow before your genius.

I await your next prose-poem with barely contained anticipation.


I enjoyed that. Thanks.
post #22 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The ongoing patent and licensing dispute between handset makers Apple and Nokia took yet another twist this week, as the iPhone maker has asked the International Trade Commission to ban the import of Nokia's phones into the U.S.

Take a look at this http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/29/nokia-vs-apple-the-in-depth-analysis> article It has the best explanation that I've seen on this topic.

Sorry this isn't link... my link didn't work in this editor.
post #23 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorotea View Post

Take a look at this http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/29/nokia-vs-apple-the-in-depth-analysis> article It has the best explanation that I've seen on this topic.

Sorry this isn't link... my link didn't work in this editor.



AI uses BB Code

To make a text link just click the earth with chain looking icon, paste your link in the javascript popup box and then change the highlighted text or just paste the link in your post on a line and it will automatically create a link like this.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/29/n...depth-analysis

Also your link has a ">" at the end, like a broken HTML link, so it's likely not working because of that.

Your welcome ahead of time to save a post.
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post #24 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorotea View Post

Take a look at this http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/29/nokia-vs-apple-the-in-depth-analysis> article It has the best explanation that I've seen on this topic.

Sorry this isn't link... my link didn't work in this editor.

Let me try.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/29/n...depth-analysis
post #25 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorotea View Post

Take a look at this http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/29/nokia-vs-apple-the-in-depth-analysis> article It has the best explanation that I've seen on this topic.

Sorry this isn't link... my link didn't work in this editor.

Regardless, this has been posted in the past and it is just as relevant today. The key point being that Nokia chose only 10 patents to contest. They have plenty more but they chose only ten. This should set off alarms that they are pretty damn confident that they can make this poop stick to the wall. There is not one mobile that you can pick up that does not have Nokia technology in it somewhere. The same can't be said about Apple. Apple needs Nokia's technology more than Nokia needs Apple's. The issue is not who makes a better phone with more bells and whistles but who is stealing (opppsss, sorry for being politically incorrect) infringing, on the others IPR.

The winners will be the lawyers.
post #26 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

Regardless, this has been posted in the past and it is just as relevant today. The key point being that Nokia chose only 10 patents to contest. They have plenty more but they chose only ten. This should set off alarms that they are pretty damn confident that they can make this poop stick to the wall. There is not one mobile that you can pick up that does not have Nokia technology in it somewhere. The same can't be said about Apple. Apple needs Nokia's technology more than Nokia needs Apple's. The issue is not who makes a better phone with more bells and whistles but who is stealing (opppsss, sorry for being politically incorrect) infringing, on the others IPR.

The winners will be the lawyers.


According to the article, Nokia has another 10,990 patents at it's disposal if need be.

Something is wrong if there are that many patents, it's like having 11,000 nuclear bombs for each city when one will do, and a few for backup. So obviously the system is being abused and Apple is being roped in the game or else they would have paid the peanuts Nokia gets from the others.


Thanks for the link Dorotea. it was good.
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post #27 of 86
Wasn't the engadget articled (linked above) posted straight after Nokia filed its court case and before Apple counter-sued?

The article I read didn't mention the US-ITC submission from Nokia either. And now Apple has also presented counter-arguments to stop sales of Nokia products for Nokia's infringement of Apple's IP?

This is classic ping-pong litigation: one sues, the other counter-sues.

They'll eventually settle -- I can't see Apple pulling out of the mobile market unless Nokia gets the verdict in a US court where Apple is forced to pay a large chunk of its profits from iPhone sales to Nokia. And I can't see a US court dealing-out such a verdict.
post #28 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinney57 View Post

Your posts have a pattern now I realise. They start with a fact that you have read somewhere; followed by an assertion that is simply wrong; followed by a conclusion that is breathtaking in its stupidity. Nobody can be such an idiot. I now suspect that you are in fact merely playing with the boring conventions of logic, wisdom, common sense etc and that we should all recognise and bow before your genius.

I await your next prose-poem with barely contained anticipation.



Or, they could pull out of China, come back to the US where they'd be welcomed with open arms from factory workers ready to negotiate a fair contract, much like the auto workers ditched the UAW for Hyundai and Toyota. Workers here and businesses can get along, after all. Here's to hoping
post #29 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post

No Nokia asked the U.S. International Trade Commission to ban the import of Apple products into the U.S.

Apple has their products made in China or Taiwan, perhaps other places too, like in Europe.

FYI, the reason for the ITC's existence is listed in the Bloomberg article:

Quote:
The ITC is a government agency whose job is to protect the U.S. market from unfair trade practices, including patent infringement. If it agrees to consider Apple’s complaint, it could complete the investigation in about 15 months. A copy of the Apple complaint wasn’t immediately available.
post #30 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

As an apropos example of things not going your way in court despite overwhelming confidence is Apple Computer v. Apple Corps. Apple Corps sued and won and/or settled with Apple Computer several times over nearly 3 decacdes, but in 2003 they sued Apple Computer yet again for the iTunes Music Store which Apple Corps felt violated their previous agreement. Apple Computer offered them $1M, but Apple Corps rejected it and went to court for $500M. Not only did Apple Corps lose they had to pay their own legal fees on top of $2.78M they had to pay Apple Computers. Talk about a backfire.

Excellent post, with some good historical perspective. I think you're spot on.

At the end of the day, this is a lot of noise that amounts to little more than junk that keeps lawyers and courts employed, but affects neither company's long-run strategy.

That said, unless Nokia finds a way to re-invent itself with something new and exciting -- lose the Symbian, Maemo, etc. nonsense, for starters -- it is on an inevitable course of long-run decline.
post #31 of 86
Absolutely unprofessional by Nokia
post #32 of 86
I guess it's up to a court to unravel where Nokia's patents end and where Apple's and the technologies they have already licensed from other patent holders begins.

Regarding the specificity of Nokia's patents, where do you think Apples licensing of Qualcomm's patents for use of codecs for low bandwidth transmission of voice, which date back to Quicktime 3 fit in?

That is ONE of Nokia's "specific" patents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns View Post

You have a point. I am really concerned more about the fact that Nokia only wants 10 very specific patents examined rather than a blanket infringement. This is where Apple may have problems.
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post #33 of 86
All this babble is meaningless.

The most important fact of the matter is that Apple is on an epic roll with its overall production and its products and services.

It's literally devastated the old complacent mobile phone industry, kicking the cornerstones out of their corporate walls and making the old citadels start to crumble.

They've got NOTHING in answer to not just the hardware of the iPhone, but to the OS, the app store, the third-party developers, and the overall support system of MoblileMe synching, iTunes, and the whole Apple Digital Hub which it's been steadily building up now for a DECADE.

No one saw it coming, or at least no one predicted the ultimate effects.

And now they're also realizing that no pile of goofy touch-screen little Android gewgaw gadgets are going to sell without something to compare with Apple's 800-pound gorilla array of products and services.

Even if any of these other companies was ready to honestly face the enormity of such an effort at this late date, where is their "Steve Jobs"? Where is their leader and their goal setter?

I'd like to think there are more than a few more "Steve Jobs" around, men (or women) of similar calibre, but that's the kind of gargantuan effort it's going to take to come up with something at all comparable. Apple's been at its game since its inception back in the '70s, but especially since the "Return of the King" (to borrow a Lord of the Rings analogy).

There may have been other companies which compared, but even IBM is now only a mere shadow of what if was in its heyday. But Apple now has the historical advantage of being a COMPUTER-based company. The inherent flexibility of the computer as well as its unlimited power, coupled with the live human imagination, intellect, and teamwork of Apple's people, makes such comparisons mute.

Call me a hopeless zealot or Kool-ade drinker, but there's no denying the facts, and those bright and hopeful facts are what we know as Apple, Inc.

Daniel Swanson

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Daniel Swanson

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post #34 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinney57 View Post

Your posts have a pattern now I realise. They start with a fact that you have read somewhere; followed by an assertion that is simply wrong; followed by a conclusion that is breathtaking in its stupidity. Nobody can be such an idiot. I now suspect that you are in fact merely playing with the boring conventions of logic, wisdom, common sense etc and that we should all recognise and bow before your genius.

I await your next prose-poem with barely contained anticipation.

Yeah. MacTripper is probably an alias for Tekstud.
post #35 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSW View Post

All this babble is meaningless.

The most important fact of the matter is that Apple is on an epic roll with its overall production and its products and services.

It's literally devastated the old complacent mobile phone industry, kicking the cornerstones out of their corporate walls and making the old citadels start to crumble.

They've got NOTHING in answer to not just the hardware of the iPhone, but to the OS, the app store, the third-party developers, and the overall support system of MoblileMe synching, iTunes, and the whole Apple Digital Hub which it's been steadily building up now for a DECADE.

No one saw it coming, or at least no one predicted the ultimate effects.

And now they're also realizing that no pile of goofy touch-screen little Android gewgaw gadgets are going to sell without something to compare with Apple's 800-pound gorilla array of products and services.

Even if any of these other companies was ready to honestly face the enormity of such an effort at this late date, where is their "Steve Jobs"? Where is their leader and their goal setter?

I'd like to think there are more than a few more "Steve Jobs" around, men (or women) of similar calibre, but that's the kind of gargantuan effort it's going to take to come up with something at all comparable. Apple's been at its game since its inception back in the '70s.

There may have been other companies which compared, but even IBM is now only a mere shadow of what if was in its heyday. But Apple now has the historical advantage of being a COMPUTER-based company. The inherent flexibility of the computer as well as its unlimited power makes such comparisons mute.

Wow. The posts on this thread get better and better. Very insightful.

Seriously.
post #36 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by technohermit View Post



Or, they could pull out of China, come back to the US where they'd be welcomed with open arms from factory workers ready to negotiate a fair contract, much like the auto workers ditched the UAW for Hyundai and Toyota. Workers here and businesses can get along, after all. Here's to hoping

May happen. They will be welcomed by robots not workers though. I'm sure Apple would like to move out of China to have more control over quality.

BTW, I think that Nokia isn't trying to ban the import of iPhones to the USA. I think the origin of the company is what matters, not the origin of the manufacturing. Most likely they are trying to ban the export to the EU.
post #37 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Wow. The posts on this thread get better and better. Very insightful.

Seriously.

Thanks, man. I'm pleased to have been acknowledged by a high-poster.

But really, isn't this the fundamental issue to be addressed by any would-be competitor?

Daniel Swanson

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Daniel Swanson

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post #38 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSW View Post

Thanks, man. I'm pleased to have been acknowledged by a high-poster.

Well I'm stone sober and I agree with him. Seriously, I've never had more than a single margarita, let alone anything that will get me actually high. I've seen people drink more in a night than I have in my entire lifetime.
post #39 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielSW View Post

All this babble is meaningless.

The most important fact of the matter is that Apple is on an epic roll with its overall production and its products and services.

It's literally devastated the old complacent mobile phone industry, kicking the cornerstones out of their corporate walls and making the old citadels start to crumble.

They've got NOTHING in answer to not just the hardware of the iPhone, but to the OS, the app store, the third-party developers, and the overall support system of MoblileMe synching, iTunes, and the whole Apple Digital Hub which it's been steadily building up now for a DECADE.

No one saw it coming, or at least no one predicted the ultimate effects.

And now they're also realizing that no pile of goofy touch-screen little Android gewgaw gadgets are going to sell without something to compare with Apple's 800-pound gorilla array of products and services.

Even if any of these other companies was ready to honestly face the enormity of such an effort at this late date, where is their "Steve Jobs"? Where is their leader and their goal setter?

I'd like to think there are more than a few more "Steve Jobs" around, men (or women) of similar calibre, but that's the kind of gargantuan effort it's going to take to come up with something at all comparable. Apple's been at its game since its inception back in the '70s, but especially since the "Return of the King" (to borrow a Lord of the Rings analogy).

There may have been other companies which compared, but even IBM is now only a mere shadow of what if was in its heyday. But Apple now has the historical advantage of being a COMPUTER-based company. The inherent flexibility of the computer as well as its unlimited power, coupled with the live human imagination, intellect, and teamwork of Apple's people, makes such comparisons mute.

Call me a hopeless zealot or Kool-ade drinker, but there's no denying the facts, and those bright and hopeful facts are what we know as Apple, Inc.

You'd like to think so but from the several companies I've worked for outside of NeXT and Apple, those certain someones don't exist. It's innate to one's persona and a product of your youth, not a product of your MBA program.

All this talk about speaking like Steve Jobs during a Keynote [see eWeek, VARInsider, et, al.] is a waste of time. Some speakers in different industries have that Jobsian ability to capture your attention and ultimately reveal what is known--very few chairman/ceo personalities in the world motivate people by their sheer vision.

They do it with their pocketbook. Most of the IT industry is dreary, uneventful work. When you get a chance to design you hang onto it. Otherwise, you start your own gig and attempt to do something that makes it no longer feel like a job.
post #40 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

They do it with their pocketbook. Most of the IT industry is dreary, uneventful work. When you get a chance to design you hang onto it. Otherwise, you start your own gig and attempt to do something that makes it no longer feel like a job.

So true. That's why I wanted to be a web developer, so I could design stuff and maybe boss others around on my perspectives And then I get to do it for a pretty new IT company, so that means it's less of a job and more of a gig Now I just need to aspire to be like Jobs and I'm all set
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