Cruise Ships Docking Near Quake Site: WTF?

Probably another bunch of Republican voting Bankers spending their bonus.

Oh, c'mon. You've been drinking the koolaid, giving people those "differences between dems and repubs" hallucinations. Incidentally, the Obama cabinet is almost entirely Wall St... and the last time I checked, the Obama administration was staffed by democrats.

And re. the OP, if these reports are for real.... what a bunch of sickos.

Really? I was going to go with Eurotrash liberals.


But yea , rather distasteful.

I have mixed feelings. I volunteered for some haiti relief efforts this past week so I have a reasonable understanding of the situation.

The problem isn't lack of materials but lack of transport infrastructure to get stuff anywhere. One example was Mexico provided a mobile water purification system but it got turned away because there was no way to get it out of the airport area.

You can't carry cranes or heavy bulldozers in cruise ships. You can carry some food but there's enough other lift capabilities to get food there by ship if the docks were in better shape. You could sea lift some folks out if they wanted to go and you had a place to take them and there was an efficient way to get them aboard...but thus far there's no call for that.

So other than going somewhere else and spending money somewhere else there's not THAT much cruise lines can do. So it looks crass but in reality they don't much matter to relief efforts and Haiti could use the money. Heck, there's a bleeding carrier there and they were limited last week due to lack of ground control to safely fly their helos in.

Now that we've moved in to straighten out air traffic other countries are whining that we're hogging all the flights. Frankly the Brazilians and French can both go hang. WTF is the US supposed to do? Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Might as well be damned for doing.

Bankers are mostly liberals these days, thanks to the bailout.

Ya' know, most folks plan their vacations a long time in advance. If you had made the plans and paid the money, and then an earthquake struct, would you cancel everything? Why? Why wouldn't you put money into the local economy to help it? In fact, the best thing you can do is to go to vacation in Haiti.

You should postpone your trip / your travel agency / cruise company should postpone it. It is fine and dandy that you want to enjoy your cruise, but not when the situation is as bad as it is in Haiti.

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news...-82038277.html

vinea the cruise ship may or may not be helpful in the situation. But who wants to go jet skiing when there's 70,000 dead not too far away. When you make the port of call at Haiti what's the small talk with the local vendors?

I agree.
Or, if the cruise was already underway, change the course, donate the passage fees and take donations from the passengers (how many Haitians can afford a cruise?).

Corporate America's response to the Haiti quake comes under the lens here in comparison to Katrina:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-h..._b_427140.html

What I can't understand is why the unions are doing nothing. Have they no shame?

http://blog.aflcio.org/2010/01/19/un...-in-for-haiti/
http://www.seiu.org/2010/01/haiti-re...u-can-help.php
http://www.afscme.org/splash/

Outside US

http://www.apheda.org.au/news/1263767740_23501.html

Riiiiiight

When you get off the mescaline, let me know.

Well, if you're not actually helping WTF is the difference between your posting on AI as opposed to your jet skiing in the Caribbean? If you haven't changed your lifestyle one iota it's rank hypocrisy to demand some poor smuck on his vacation or honeymoon do so.

I'll even bet those folks have donated...and probably more than you have.

What the fsck has my lifestyle or my posting on AI got to do with every natural calamity that hits the planet? My earlier suggestion was made on the grounds of common sense. It has nothing to do with a person's generosity. When you are mugged by someone are you going to plead with them that you have donated generously? Is the concept of "Just don't rub it in" that hard to understand? The situation on the ground is quite bad with people migrating out of the capital in search of food and shelter. How long before the mob reaches your cruise port? What will you do then? Wait for the local riot police to clear the mob on an hourly basis so you can go jet skiing? You will be putting your life and your spouse's life in mortal danger as people who have lost everything can and will do anything to survive. Postponing your dream vacation is still a better option.

I'm not demanding anything.

It has to do with asking other folks to change their behavior while doing nothing yourself.


If security is a problem the cruise lines will alter the itinerary and not stop there.

What I'm tired of is the mock outrage from folks unwilling to get off their own asses to do anything.

I wouldn't but they aren't me and that's fine by me. Much of the region is depressingly poor outside the resort areas and that's not somewhere I care to vacation to.

I know someone headed out soon to the Dominican Republic (next door to the disaster) next week.

What do you do when your vacation's been booked for months and already paid for?

Heres something that makes little sense:

Within 3 days after the quake on January 12, the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) had a comprehensive fully-equipped and staffed field hospital set up with the latest medical technology. They had to fly all the required personnel and hardware from half way around the world, at considerable expense. Is that efficiency or what? In contrast, the medical response effort from the US, despite being far closer at hand (ie just across the Caribbean), is painfully slow; the US Navy hospital ship is still on the way to Haiti and it will probably take a few more days to become operational.

There are 50,000 US citizens in Haiti (presumably there are many injuries (and fatalities)... yet the Jewish population in Haiti numbered less than 50 in 2007. Even though there's an obvious effort on the part of both nations to be seen to be a part of (or leading) what is being touted in the media as a "humanitarian response", what is with the enormous disparity in effort and efficiency, especially as, apart from the great PR scoop (and the tiny Jewish population there), the IDF has zero interest in Haiti... unless there are other factors that we are not aware of?

I actually don't see the problem. They were able to bring 40 pallets of food. Plus they are right, it will help the local economy. Look at this way: is it better for Haiti if they do or do not go? It is better if they do. Isn't that...it?

Sure it's macabre. I can understand a lot of customers wanting to not go. I mean, myself, I definitely wouldn't. As you mention SDW it'd be just a bit too gut-churning for me personally. But by being there they are helping so what's wrong with this really?

IDF Field Hospital: Air transportable. Arrived Jan 15

10 tons of medical equipment, 40 doctors, 24 nurses, medics, paramedics, x-ray equipment and personnel, a pharmacy, an emergency room, two surgery rooms, an incubation ward, a children’s ward and a maternity ward. Requires local power and resupply more often.

USNS Comfort: On Station TODAY (Jan 20) and has been treating patients (flown in) since YESTERDAY. NOT tomorrow or a few more days.

600 medical staff, 1,000 beds, 60 intensive care beds, expanded to 80, Between eight and 11 operating room beds, four X-rays, one CAT scan unit, an MRI unit, a dental suite, a pharmacy, an optometry and lens laboratory. Carries an immense amount of its own supplies including 5,000 units of blood. Has it's own power.

225 additional medical personnel will join them over the next few days.

USS Carl Vinson: On Station Jan 15

52 doctors, nurses and medical staff including general surgeon. 19 helos, huge ass bays for triage, pharmacy and 3 operating rooms.

USS Bataan: On Station Jan 19

four operating rooms, 14 ICU beds, and 38 ward beds.

USAF

The USAF had 48 folks in Haiti within 24 hours.

A 58 medical team and an 10 bed EMEDS (hospital in a box) was deployed Jan 17. Once there it got married to a 25 member team to bring it up to 25 bed capability. About the same capabilities and sustainability as the IDF field hospital (limited, needs power, water and security).

That's totally ignoring the American Red Cross ERUs and field hospitals deployed in Haiti and Army deployed assets (because I don't have that specific info handy).

Now the Vinson was underutilized for days because of ground SNAFUS but yes there WAS a HUGE disparity: the amount of medical staff from the US military dwarfs that of the Israel and is sustainable because they have their own power and water generation and a lot more than 10 tons of supplies.

But hey, what do facts matter? The IDF did well to get there fast but there were Chinese teams on the ground quickly as well. So were we and in far larger numbers than anyone else because we ARE close.

Nonsense. The US got the airport reopened ASAP which was the key element that allows everything to happen after that. Did it with the blood thirsty special forces too. Good thing Obama is in office or you'd be hyperventilating about Bush using the quake as a pretext for invasion to get Haiti's oil wealth.

My own hospital has already been asked and sent their plane to evacuate a critically injured person and also bring supplies.

But we get it sammi jo, you hate the US and even the Israelis are better than US.

You're missing the point... again. Apart from the fact that there are 10s of thousands of US citizens in Haiti.. why are we there in such force? Let us not kid ourselves here... it's the "humanitarian brownie points" which is the #1 reason for the effort, and the corporate media (naturally) are making a meal out of it. It's the perfect opportunity for some favorable press for the Obama Administration, and whichever other frickin' governments/militaries etc. etc. are there, whether Israeli or Cuba, or whatever. First, its a PR exercise. 2nd, there's all the security considerations, and what could potentially happen to Haiti, now a country without a fully functional government.

Come *ON* people! For crying out loud....be real: Governments of all stripes, whether from western industrialized, or developing, or 3rd world nations, do . not . give . a . flying . fuck . about . these . peoples' . fate.

Deal with it.

Sheesh

Clearly the evil Israelis deployed a weapon underground to level Haiti, just for the fun of it.


But seriously, Israel would obviously be one of the first to understand what's required here.

They have all kinds of technological expertise in searching through building debris for survivors, deploying rapid humanitarian aid to population centers, restoring order after chaos breaks out after a disaster, deploying military units on a moment's notice etc. etc.

Of course, had Israel not responded, Sammi would be pointing out how they possessed all this knowledge and refused to help people in distress. You have to feel sorry for the Israelis, they simply can't win.

Naah... the Cubans used a couple of ex Soviet nukes from the early 1960s to level Haiti, so they could infiltrate that country in order to spread socialism.


..... when they're taking a break from their ethnic cleansing programs you mean?


Can't win? Thats ridiculous. They have a blank check to do anything they like... they are the only small nation on earth which regularly flouts international law with complete immunity, and impunity.

Yea of course. It's there country and not ours. They reason it's so fucked it because of bad government. Why do they have bad government?


To Help Haiti, End Foreign Aid

Flippancy noted... but perhaps if they had appropriate building codes for a seismically active region, things would have been far different... such as "isolated building failures" as opposed to "widespread destruction" and a few dozen deaths, rather than a possible quarter of a million.

Building codes... hang on... that means big government and enforceable regulations, and thus smaller profit margins/more responsibility on the part of building contractors. In other words... the slippery slide towards socialism.

Comparing comparable size quakes in densely populated parts of the Socialist Republic of California: 1989: 7.0 Loma Prieta, 63 killed. 1994: 6.7 Northridge, 75 killed.

Comparing Haiti to California is stupid. Have you ever been to that part of the world?

A lot of people live in wooden shacks on public land, roofed by sheets of galvanized steel.
There is no building code in the world that would make the slightest bit of difference.

The only application would be the Presidential Palace and other government buildings. That might have helped keep the government and army functioning through the crisis, but the impact on the death toll would not have been significantly less.

That's an absurd statement. Take away the "wooden shacks on public land" and you're left with a lot of concrete and brick buildings. Typical scenes in Haiti: collapsed concrete buildings not of the "tin shack variety".


Some further commentary here:

No, the point is that you were clearly wrong in your assumptions about how much we're doing.


Not one f-ing serviceperson going over there is thinking about PR. Sure, some suits back home are salivating but so what? It's not primarily a PR exercise and the USG is composed of real people with real feelings and compassion for others. Not mindless drones always looking for an angle...that applies even to most of the folks within the beltway. That we get a little nice PR is completely secondary.

Governments and companies are composed of humans. That means that they are capable of both incredible cruelty and incredible compassion for other humans.

Deal with it. Or the black mind control helicopters will get you.

Geez, Sammi got something right. Had they been mostly living in wooden shacks the death toll would have been far lower. You can typically survive galvanized sheets falling on you on single level shacks.

The problem is that many live in cinderblock or unreinforced concrete structures. They DO get hurricanes pretty often and those are pretty safe for that and earthquakes...well...not like this ever. There was an 8.1 earthquake in the Dominican Republic in 1946 that killed 1,790 people. So pretty much hurricanes are the threat they deal with. Not earthquakes.

The death toll in China was so high for the same reason: lots of concrete buildings pancaked.

I probably should have expressed myself better.

In the city areas, pretty much all apartment buildings would have been decimated. In addition, 'middle class' homes (relative to Haiti of course) would be concrete as well. You get significant discounts on homeowners insurance for concrete homes in the Caribbean, because of the fire-resistence as opposed to wood.

But Haiti isn't California, and as you mentioned, buildings are built to withstand hurricanes, not earthquakes like this. I seriously doubt that, even with this disaster, anything but government buildings and major new developments will be constructed to California-like building codes.

There are many parts of the Caribbean where codes are enforced and backed by inspection. In a country with Haiti's poverty level, corruption level, coupled with a literacy rate of 45%, not so much.


In the country areas, the initial death toll might not have been as severe as the cities. But the disruption in the delivery of food, water and meds, and the breakdown in law and order, would also prove mighty deadly. Canadian forces have been responding to outlying regions (where incidentally, our Governor General was born.) From the reports, the situation seemed almost as grave in the cutoff country areas as some of the cities.

Of course, I'm watching this unfold from a distance, so maybe my perspective is wrong.

So what is the problem? Most of the people in Haiti SURVIVED the earthquake and need the income from the tourist economy.

The worst thing would be for that income to stop and make matters worse.


Cruise ships and it's passengers are ill equipped to handle emergencies anyway. The best thing they could do is come and bring money spending tourists.


Here watch this video, it's pretty cool you can move around in 360º too. It's not that bad there, things have to get back to normal anyway.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2010/...ex.html?hpt=C1

More misunderstanding, or misrepresentation of what I said.

The further up any hierarchy (government, military, corporate etc) one looks, the "wimpy-assed aspects" of human nature (compassion, empathy, charity, benevolence, etc) are less prominent/assume less significance. There are exceptions, but people whose motivations are biased towards "humanitarian" values tend not to reach the top of hierachical structures... thats a given. If this was not the case, then life on this planet might be a great experience for the majority, rather than just the privileged <5%.

It all about human nature.

First, I would like to thank SDW2001 for making this thread. When I found out about this, I was incredibly outraged. Unfortunately, I am also as lazy as I am outraged and, therefore, needed an an easily accessible outlet to express this uncontainable outrage, so I turned on my computer and went to some internet websites looking for other people expressing outrage over this outrageous incident.

First, I went to the office chair discussion forum, but there was no thread on this outrageous event. I promptly requested that my account be deleted, as I have no interest in being part of such an despicably uncaring community. I then visited my favorite bladesmithing forum, and encountered the same gross and inexcusable ambivalence toward this outrageous event. It then occurred to me that if I was to find a discussion on this cruise ship visiting haiti, where better than my favorite apple computer new and discussion website.

And, thus, I found this thread, where I am now expressing my outrage in the most effective way I am capable of:

What you end up with is somewhere in the middle, but the measure of a people is the change over time.

The US is always there. I don't remember a single time we failed to respond to any nations suffering.

As far as the topic, the Haitians need business to continue, and that absolutely includes the business with the cruise lines and vacation companies. With the economic conditions as they are, the vacation industry and the cruise lines need to keep doing business too - people's jobs depend on it.

I think it's even bigger than that. Whatever type of "Marshall Plan" is invoked for Haiti, it will involve building a number of tourist resorts on par with those in the Dominican Republic.

Exports of coffee, cocoa, mangoes and sugar are not going to be able to pay the freight for Haiti's reconstruction and ongoing revival.

The Haitian premier is appealing for help for what he terms a "colossal reconstruction" effort. If there are no seismic building codes to follow, what kind of "reconstruction" is going to happen there, and when the next major earthquake hits the island, will the same thing happen all over again? Will Haiti's government willingly get their act together on this?

Who is going to oversee "reconstruction efforts", who will be paying for them, and who will eventually benefit? Will Haiti, as a result of what Naomi Klein has described in her excellent book "The Shock Doctrine", (how disasters, both natural and manmade are capitalized upon by special interests) become a Caribbean tropical haven catering for tourists and 2nd, 3rd and 4th homes for the wealthy; where the locals lose their land and property and end up working for slave wages for multinational corporations?

As in, the usual way things work these days?

US international aid is routinely tied to foreign policy objectives. Also, US aid, proportional to GNP historically lags behind other industrialized nations. Since 2000 though, the actual dollar amount has been the highest. (Paradox?)

The M7.3 Qayen earthquake in Iran in 1997 killed 1,500+ leveled 15,000 homes. The US donated $25,000 for relief efforts... a token effort, about half a SUV or one JDAM bomb. In contrast, after Hurricane Katrina Iran offered to donate humanitarian aid and 20,000,000 barrels of crude oil valued at almost $1.5 billion.

We're the best!