Best President of your country ancient and modern age - Page 2

First, as for the best presidents of my country, I would have to go with Lincoln and FDR.

Now, on the issue of Nixon. Sure, he theoretically pulled as out of the Vietnam War, but he also considered using a nuclear weapon in Vietnam. Additionally, it was his administration that started the spiral of inflation that eventually undermined Carter's administration. And while the space program only culminated with the man on the moon during Nixon's admin, that was all due to inertia from Kennedy and Johnson.

Edit: One more thing on Nixon. His assurances to the Suharto regime in Indonesia directly led to the Indonesian invasion of East Timor, which resulted in the ethnic cleansing of 800,000 East Timorese Catholics (ie, not a good thing)

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by Stroszek:
<strong>


that's pretty narrow minded.
if you are president and thousands of your citizens are getting sick and dying from something that no one understands, you need to do something about it.
i know this is off topic, but just to let you know, scott:
in 1981, the first media report of the pandemic was published. the same year, the CDC published reports of an unknown disease. Six years, 36,000 infections, and 21,000 deaths later, Reagan made his first public comment on the disease. in 1988, the National AIDS Commission (which he formed) presented him with over 500 recommendations of how to fight the disease. The list was reduced to 10 items.

i don't know where you come from, but where i come from, that's pretty irresponsible.

cheers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What's that, CDC? Who are they? Who do they work for? Since when do gay men get their medical advice from the President? :confused: Like a message from Reagan would have magically snapped rubbers on all the boners out there?

Pandemic?

I really hope you're just pretending to be ignorant.

<a href="http://www.pedaids.org/fs_about_us.html" target="_blank">http://www.pedaids.org/fs_about_us.html</a>

Healthcare is regulated by the government (including the surgeon general), the President is the head of the Government. Sure its more complicated than that but it's not like your boy Bush wasn't out talking about Anthrax a few months ago.

Not that I don't generally like Reagan. He acted like a decent president. I don't even care to get involved in a debate about his actions, regarding HIV and AIDS, in the 80's. I've already listed my opinions on best presidents. But your statements insinuating that only gay men get AIDS is outright ignorant. Either that or you're just out to yank chains and spoil a perfectly good thread in the process. Which is worse I don't know, nor care.

Going to tow the party line...

"Ancient": Lincoln
Modern: Reagan

GOP! ...yea.

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

What's that, CDC? Who are they? Who do they work for? Since when do gay men get their medical advice from the President? :confused: Like a message from Reagan would have magically snapped rubbers on all the boners out there?

Pandemic?</strong><hr></blockquote>

The CDC is the Centers for Disease Control. These days they are known as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, although they still go by CDC and not CDCP. They work for the US Department of Health and Human Services, and more generally, for humanity. You may remember recently a bunch of reporters standing in front of the CDC building talking about anthrax.

No, gay men do not get their health advice from the president any more than straight people do. Unless the president is a doctor, this is unreasonable. The job of the president is to lead the country. To shape national policy. Not to sit by while thousands of bodies pile up. A statement by Reagan would have helped to gather media attention and to raise public awareness of AIDS. Maybe then more people would have begun to protect themselves. That would have saved lives.

A pandemic is an epidemic that affects a large geographic area and a large portion of the population.


Seb says:
[quote] But your statements insinuating that only gay men get AIDS is outright ignorant.<hr></blockquote>
That's on partially correct. It's not only ignorant. It's dangerous.

When talking about Reagan lets not forget the crack epidemic, saving and loan debacle, cutting student loans and increasing the amount of taxable student income.

Anders, I for one would love to hear your opinion on who the best Danish leaders were and why.

[quote]Originally posted by trick fall:
<strong>When talking about Reagan lets not forget the crack epidemic, saving and loan debacle, cutting student loans and increasing the amount of taxable student income.

Anders, I for one would love to hear your opinion on who the best Danish leaders were and why.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Crack epidemic? That was Reagans fault?

I suppose one could argue Reagan's economic policies really didn't help much, but more importantly I don't think "Just Say No" was much of a response.

Dude, haven't you heard? Everything bad happened because of Reagan, everything good despite him.

Ancient: Andrew Jackson
Modern: William Jefferson Clinton

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by glurx:
<strong>Dude, haven't you heard? Everything bad happened because of Reagan, everything good despite him.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So Reagan forced aids infected sperm in men's asses and crack pipes to addicts mouths?

[quote] So Reagan forced aids infected sperm in men's asses and crack pipes to addicts mouths?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<hr></blockquote>
Do you want to debate or simply to inflame?

Remembering back to that time...my early teens...the first two things I remember about AIDS were a garbageman contracting the disease, the first known heterosexual victim and my sex education teacher (in an all boys Catholic High School) talking about how this was something that would affect everyone. I don't think Reagan could have stopped this disease, but he could have had more of an impact if he hadn't simply ignored it.

I also remember lines down the block of crackheads waiting to cop and we're still paying the price of his misguided policies in that area.

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

So Reagan forced aids infected sperm in men's asses and crack pipes to addicts mouths?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Since when did only men get aids?

Edit: Additionally, the San Jose Mercury won a pulitzer prize a few years ago when they discovered that the CIA funded its operations in the 80s by introducing crack into inner cities, thus transforming cocaine from a drug only for the rich and poor into a drug that was accessible to a wider population and thus capable of funding such interventions as Grenada. "Crack: The Windows of Cocaine"

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>

Since when did only men get aids?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Did I say that?

[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>Edit: Additionally, the San Jose Mercury won a pulitzer prize a few years ago when they discovered that the CIA funded its operations in the 80s by introducing crack into inner cities, thus transforming cocaine from a drug only for the rich and poor into a drug that was accessible to a wider population and thus capable of funding such interventions as Grenada. "Crack: The Windows of Cocaine"

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: agent302 ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Do you have anything to back this up? I would be very interested on any information, on the web, book, newspaper, etc, that I could access about this.

[quote]Originally posted by crawlingparanoia:
<strong>

Do you have anything to back this up? I would be very interested on any information, on the web, book, newspaper, etc, that I could access about this.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'll try to check the newspapers online database. They charge, so I'll only be able to get abstracts, but I will check

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>

Did I say that?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It was implied by the fact that you only refer to gay men in all of your posts.

My vote goes with Theodore Roosovelt.

As far as Reagan goes, I think he was the worst US president in history. This would have been true even if Reaganomics were the only contribution to his legacy.

On the crack issue:

Conveniently, the Mercury News web archive is currently under maintenance, so I won't be able to post links to the actual articles right now. For a mix of information, go to google and type "San Jose Mercury News", "crack", and "cocaine", and you'll get lots of sites talking about the series of articles. Of note (so as to get both sides of the stories):

<a href="http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/oig/c4rpt/c4toc.htm" target="_blank">http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/oig/c4rpt/c4toc.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/cocaine/report/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/cocaine/report/index.html</a>

Both of the above links are government reports spawned by the Mercury News allegations. While I only skimmed them both, the CIA report (obviously) denies any and all allegations.

When the Mercury News database goes online again, I'll post links to abstracts of the original articles.

[quote]Originally posted by agent302:
<strong>

I'll try to check the newspapers online database. They charge, so I'll only be able to get abstracts, but I will check</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah, if you don't already pay, then don't worry about that.

[edit - thanks agent302]

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: crawlingparanoia ]</p>

No problem. Discussion is much more interesting if we have real things to discuss, rather than mindlessly bashing or defending people (a la Scott H)

What about Warren G. Harding? He returned us to normalcy.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt plane and simple with the police commissioner of nyc, rough riders, saved many areas like the Grand Canyon, and I must also say Eleanor Roosevelt because she in my mind is the first woman president for some of the many wonderful things she has done, no first lady has ever come close, ever. I only wish he was president today because mircosoft would have a reason to fear the government.

[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: KrazyFool ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by CaseCom:
<strong>What about Warren G. Harding? He returned us to normalcy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And spiraled us into the Great Depression

Harding = Teapot Dome

The Great Depression can't really be blamed on Harding, Coolidge or Hoover, though Hoover got the meat of it.

Nixon 'considered' using the bomb on Vietnam = grounds for putting him out of the running?

If I'm not mistaken, Truman used the bomb not once, but twice.

[quote]Originally posted by trick fall:

<strong>When talking about Reagan lets not forget the crack epidemic, saving and loan debacle, cutting student loans and increasing the amount of taxable student income.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The crack epidemic was Reagan's fault? The S&L mess was a bipartisan screwup. The bill that started us on the road to perdition (a road that eventually led to a S&L in Arkansas called Madison Guarantee) was signed by Jimmy Carter.

I'm not blaming Reagan for the crack epidemic, but rather his response to that epidemic.

[quote]Originally posted by trick fall:
<strong>I'm not blaming Reagan for the crack epidemic, but rather his response to that epidemic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And what was Clinton's responce to the drug "epidemic"? Double standard?

That CIA/crack thing was false. It's repeated over and over though. One of those things we all "know" is true but isn't.

See the common theme?

Reagan made me smoke crack. The crack problem is the CIAs fault. We are not responsible for things that are our own fault. We have no control over our lives so there's no point in trying to solve our own problems.

Reagan made me get AIDS. Reagan made me go to the bath houses and have sex with men and/or women and/or shemales and/or hermaphrodites. (happy now?) Reagan also forced me to share needles when I injected IV drugs. None of this is my fault. It's all someone else's.

The common theme of the left is to deflect blame. People are never responsible for their own actions. The little guy has no control over their own life. Blame someone else.

Unless Bill Clinton is in office.

Geez. Only Scott could make this thread into a left vs right thing.

I wonder why anyone would hate liberals so much and love the right so much. Makes one blind to open mindedness.

Clinton sucked. Bush sucks. AIDS kills anyone. Cops, Doctors, Waitresses, EMTs you name it. Lack of knowledge about deadly virii and how they are transmitted is what kills people. Not everyone that has gotten HIV/AIDS was having promiscous sex or doing drugs. Geez, did you even read the one single link I posted Scott?

<a href="http://www.pedaids.org." target="_blank">www.pedaids.org.</a>

Kids with aids. Get it through your thick damn stubborn blindheaded skull. Worldwide, approximately 25 million people have died of AIDS since the beginning of epidemic, approximately 5 million of them were children.

Now, I'm not saying that Reagan, or anyone else, is at fault you simply cannot make a blanket statement as to "who's fault" it is that this type of thing happens - there are too many individual cases. If YOU want to play the blame game and blame it on the victims of HIV or their parents, or their poor actions fine, then play the blame game. But to suggest that government doesn't hold a certain amount of responsibility to inform the public of how deadly diseases are transmitted in the name of defending a President simply because he was a Republican is just stupid.

Sheesh. You must live one sheltered life Scott.

So Scott, what about the people not directly in the AIDS or crack epidemics, but ensnared by circumstance? ie, Those living in a neighborhood overrun by drug dealers or trying to care for a relative with AIDS. Is it their fault too?

I love how conservatives are all for individual responsibility so long as the individual is a person and not a corporate entity.

BTW, Scott so you've never taken any student aid in your college career? A rugged individualist such as yourself surely didn't need any help from the government. Your probably sickened by those weak liberals who gladly feed at the trough of TAP etc....

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>The common theme of the left is to deflect blame. People are never responsible for their own actions. The little guy has no control over their own life. Blame someone else.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sounds like a common theme of the Enron debacle. Did you catch Jeffrey Skilling's testimony? He was deceived. He was a victim. He thought the company was in good financial shape when he quit. Yeah right.

Everyone tries to deflect blame. It's a human character flaw. It's not restricted to one side of the aisle. The right just loves to crow about personal responsibility when it's someone else who's ****ing up. When it's them, suddenly it's someone else's fault.

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: CaseCom ]</p>

[quote]Originally posted by trick fall:
<strong>So Scott, what about the people not directly in the AIDS or crack epidemics, but ensnared by circumstance? ie, Those living in a neighborhood overrun by drug dealers or trying to care for a relative with AIDS. Is it their fault too?

I love how conservatives are all for individual responsibility so long as the individual is a person and not a corporate entity.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Enron is going to get slammed by the stock owners. And if the broke the law they may well go to jail for it. So there's no double standard.

[quote]Originally posted by trick fall:
<strong>BTW, Scott so you've never taken any student aid in your college career? A rugged individualist such as yourself surely didn't need any help from the government. Your probably sickened by those weak liberals who gladly feed at the trough of TAP etc....</strong><hr></blockquote>

No I did. NIH grants. For which I'm obligated to contribute to the field they helped to fund. Which I will do. But it's apples and oranges. Staying off crack and doing cancer research are not two sides of the same coin.

I dunno, can't private industry take care of that? Why'd you have to accept a grant?
BTW, I never even filled out an aid application. Got a job and paid every dollar of tuition out of my own pocket.

[quote]Originally posted by seb:
<strong>Not everyone that has gotten HIV/AIDS was having promiscous sex or doing drugs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No not everyone. But almost everyone. A tiny fraction got it through blood transfusions in the early 1980s. And a small % are babies who get it as a birthday present from their moms. Their moms got it due to sex or drugs. Very close to 100% have gotten it due to sex or drugs. It's just too hard to catch any other way - the virus is too fragile outside of its host.

The point is we can send AIDS the way of smallpox, but we don't even need a vaccine. It used to be pretty easy to catch smallpox - like flus and colds are today. But HIV is extremely difficult to catch. So people need to change their behavior.

I think repeatedly pointing out that anyone can get it sends the wrong message - like it's uncontrollable, and you can't prevent it. Fact is, it is very easily preventable and linked to very specific, controllable behaviors.

[quote]Originally posted by BRussell:
<strong>
No not everyone. But almost everyone. A tiny fraction got it through blood transfusions in the early 1980s. And a small % are babies who get it as a birthday present from their moms. Their moms got it due to sex or drugs. Very close to 100% have gotten it due to sex or drugs. It's just too hard to catch any other way - the virus is too fragile outside of its host.

The point is we can send AIDS the way of smallpox, but we don't even need a vaccine. It used to be pretty easy to catch smallpox - like flus and colds are today. But HIV is extremely difficult to catch. So people need to change their behavior.

I think repeatedly pointing out that anyone can get it sends the wrong message - like it's uncontrollable, and you can't prevent it. Fact is, it is very easily preventable and linked to very specific, controllable behaviors.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Finally! The voice of reason! I was going to post somthing similar if I did not read it in this thread. As he so nicely stated, AIDS is not as contagious as the common cold. It usually required intimate relations, blood exchange or something else that is not a normal contact to contract it. AIDS is preventable, but not in todays moral climate. (Shoot I have even read that hte AIDS virus is small enough to permeate an ubroken latex condom in some instances.)

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
[QB]That CIA/crack thing was false. It's repeated over and over though. One of those things we all "know" is true but isn't.<hr></blockquote>

How so? I don't see a shred of evidence backing up your point. And the only negative response to the Mercury News articles are questions of editorial decisions and examples of government denial. Rather than reject something on face, Scott, why don't you try to analyze all the facts?

(Oh, and it seems people have granted me that Nixon allowed the East Timorese massacre to occur. Thanks)

Yea and Clinton "allowed" Rwanda to happen. I "allowed" someone to driver their car down the street today.


Saying Reagan caused all those AIDS deaths is just as dumb as Pat Robertson (or was it the other guy) saying gays caused 9-11.

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>Yea and Clinton "allowed" Rwanda to happen. I "allowed" someone to driver their car down the street today.


Saying Reagan caused all those AIDS deaths is just as dumb as Pat Robertson (or was it the other guy) saying gays caused 9-11.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, Kissinger, with Nixon's blessing, spoke directly to Suharto and said that the US would do absolutely nothing if Indonesia invaded. Thus, the US DIRECTLY influenced the Indonesian invasion of and subsequent massacre of East Timor.

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>That CIA/crack thing was false. It's repeated over and over though. One of those things we all "know" is true but isn't.

See the common theme?

Reagan made me smoke crack. The crack problem is the CIAs fault. We are not responsible for things that are our own fault. We have no control over our lives so there's no point in trying to solve our own problems.

Reagan made me get AIDS. Reagan made me go to the bath houses and have sex with men and/or women and/or shemales and/or hermaphrodites. (happy now?) Reagan also forced me to share needles when I injected IV drugs. None of this is my fault. It's all someone else's.

The common theme of the left is to deflect blame. People are never responsible for their own actions. The little guy has no control over their own life. Blame someone else.

Unless Bill Clinton is in office.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Firsto of all, I did not say that Reagan caused AIDS. The first known AIDS death was in 1959, in Manchester, England. He had nothing to do with that.

What I did say is that Reagan was the worst president of the modern era becasue of his RESPONSE to AIDS. Not becasue he went around infecting people. My point is that if Reagan had wanted to, he could have raised public awareness of the disease and instituted a government policy of how to deal with it. That would have saved lives.

I'm not saying Reagan caused people to get AIDS. I know how you get AIDS, and I know that in most cases it is through an action of your own. I m saying that Reagan didn't do everything he could to help.

Period.

If I knew that everyone was going to get their underwear all knotted up over this, I would have just had someone else be the worst president.