Inside the multitouch FingerWorks tech in Apple's tablet - Page 4

And what helps us be pedantic?

Since youve opened up this can of beans the OAD2 defines the verb eat' as put (food) into the mouth and chew and swallow it." Since that action also refers to the placing of the food into the mouth you cant say that we only use our mouths to eat.

Funny post.

But it's basically just your opinion as you say, and most wouldn't agree.

I think everyone would agree that Apple has made some bad mice and that they have a different idea of what a mouse should be than a lot of mouse users, but that doesn't mean the Magic Mouse is a bad product.

There are valid design reasons for having a mouse that can be either a one button or two button mouse, and valid design reasons for not having the second button enabled as a default. Just cause you don't like it, doesn't make it a bad idea. Apple doesn't just do this stuff on a whim, they do a lot of testing.

You say it's over-designed "for looks," but other than being a different shape than you personally want, you don't explain how exactly. You say the tracking is bad, but it's measurably better than all Apple's previous mice and in every review I've read is particularly praised for it's accuracy.

I'm not saying your wrong, but it's pretty clear that your hatred for the mouse is colouring your opinion of it's design features.

I've hated most of Apple's mice, but the Mighty Mouse was a good mouse except for the pain of cleaning that stupid ball which quickly became uselessly clogged. As far as I can see, the Magic Mouse is an excellent replacement. It does everything the Mighty Mouse did, but has ten times the accuracy, and no longer has a problem with the ball clogging.

I think the Mighty Mouse is almost the perfect, basic, mouse. Simple clicking and scrolling is all the majority of folks want and the Magic Mouse delivers those things perfectly IMO.

No offence, but I have to comment since two people already think this is a great idea. It's so totally, not.

To suggest that thumb-typing is "awkward," but that "back-typing" with fingers you can't even see, on a (presumably) divided, invisible keyboard on the back of the device is just ridiculous.

Divided keyboards, despite being ergonomically better for you as well as faster to type on once trained, have yet to capture anything but the tiniest sliver of the market. They basically only appeal to RSI sufferers. And those are the ones with the physical keys that you can actually see in front of you.

People also generally have trouble with touch typing in the first place, and the vast majority of even fast typer's use a two finger method or look at the keys, or both. Most people use the iPhone's virtual keyboard incorrectly already, in that they need to look at the keys, and they generally use only one hand and one finger or even put the iPhone down and type on it as if it was a Barbie typewriter.

No way in a thousand million years is touch typing, on an invisible keyboard, that's divided in half and rotated by 90 degrees on the back of the tablet ever going to take off. Can you imagine how long it would be to explain to someone how to even begin to use such a thing?

Interesting point. I was surprised the other day to realize that the iPhone 3Gs could recognize my typing, selecting and other gestures through my gloved hand. I was wearing "thin" golf gloves at the time, as I use them sometimes while driving. I say surprised, as on previous models and software versions, that wasn't possible. At least for me.

Yeah i'd agree with that.

For me the Magic Mouse is superior to the one its replaced. Having never used a Magic Mouse before i now have one courtesy of my new iMac.

No sooner was the iMac up and running i was happily working away, at a much faster pace i might add. It just felt so intuitive. Maybe because i also use the latest Macbook Pro with touch track that the Magic Mouse just worked for me.

On saying that our IT manager, who's a PC, spotted it and found it intuitive to use as well. Each to their own i guess.

I understand what you are saying, but don't the UPS folks need to hand you the stylus to sign to begin with? Germs on screen = germs on stylus. Not to mention that it's a lot easier to wipe off the stylus with a germ-killing towelette, than it is to do the same on your tablet and risk damage.

I think there will be a back-panel touchpad, but I still think that thumb typing on the front will be used.

However, it could be easier than you think to type on the back panel. Theoretically, if your hands on the backside and you choose the keyboard input the front of the panel could show a representation of your hands and digits as you type making the ability to type fast and accurate possible.

I think this tech would be complex and I still hold to the likelihood of a curved keyboard your thumbs can travel to with ease while holding the device, but I dont think we can count it out altogether.



It works with at least one pair of disposable nitrile gloves on. Not sure about 2 pair or latex, though. Someone want to give it a go. I ask because this tablet may find some uses in the medical field.

Now I understand why many of my "artsy" friends are so excited about the assumed release of the tablet. I had not though of it as an input device on steroids. Also, given that the low-end side of Wacom starts out around $350-$400, the assumed fact that the tablet would be more than a one trick pony would be huge.

And that, folks, is what I love about Apple. The engineering is so damn good that it allows the rest of us to take products into areas that Apple itself may or may not have even thought of.

Is it Wednesday yet?

Exactly! It's shocking that no one else has thought of this. But like Apple and the iPod.. they may be the only ones that can accomplish this because they make their own software and hardware. You know Cintiq and Wacom wish they could incorporate Apple's OS and operating system into their devices seamlessly. Same with Axiotron and the Modbook.

The only weird thing is that the Axiotron president(ex Apple engineer I believe) said he isn't worried about the Apple tablet impacting his sales. Does he know something we don't that makes him certain it won't be used in this fashion or posturing or just hopeful?

If that gesture is supposed to work anything like a "wacom" i don't think it'll work. Sure you get a neat gesture and get rid of the "annoying" stylus but the you still won't have pressure/ angle or velocity sensitivity. it'll be every bit awkward as using your finger to draw. Terrible idea.

Yeah he does... the tablet will use the iphone OS and not Mac OSX.

Yes, but if the tablet could still be used as an input device/drawing pad/display even without OSX then it would still kill his business. I doubt most artists would care if it was portable or not. I doubt most peripheral drawing pads will have the power and capability Apple's tablet will have. They are just displays with touch sensors.

Then you've obviously never used a really good mouse. There are plenty of mice that click and scroll much better (more comfortably and more intuitively) than the magic mouse for a fraction of the cost. I was surprised to see Apple make such a big deal out of another lame mouse. Once I tried to use it, my expectations were only confirmed. It is the worst mouse Apple has ever made. I would pick up the beige one button bastard before I ever use a magic mouse. I even like the mighty mouse better, especially for post production work, but then again my hands aren't a greasy as as others so i didn't really experience the clogged ball issues. I could never use the magic mouse professionally. It simply wouldn't work as it's ergonomics are all wrong and you lose "buttons" with awkward silly gestures. The mouse is prone slipping while performing gestures blah blah blah... terrible mouse for pro and the pro apps.

So since our finger are (I assume) in the real world, then how would you propose to change the shape. Sure you can change how the software/ computer sees your fingers but that does nothing to change the way the human "perceives their finger. it would still feel like you were awkwardly drawing with you're finger, no pressure sensitivity, no angle, no velocity = an unusable device and I would rather not see a stylus if it can't work like a wacom. A stylus is useless on the iphone so Apple didn't make one, the tablet would have to work very differently.

Like I said earlier a tablet/ slate without a stylus would be an Oxymoron and I don't think Apple is really that into ironic devices, although that magic mouse has me thinking otherwise.

Not necessarily. There are still going to be people that need a much more powerful Intel Core machine, perhaps with 8GB RAM or up to a 500GB HDD, or the use of Mac OS X apps. I figure Axitrons sales are very low as it is because the desire for this type of tablet simply isnt a desire nor need for most people, hence the complete failure of Windows being shoehorned into a tablet for the last decade.

Its possible that only a few will find that an ARM-based tablet possibly with just 1GB RAM, a comparatively small amount of storage, running a version of OS X (OS X ≠ Mac OS X) specifically for the tablet, likely titled Tablet OS X, and designed as an accessory device to a PC, not a PC replacement will not be sufficient for the consumers that require Axitotrons tablet.

Your finger has more sensitivity touching the drawing surface than you do through the pen you are holding touching the drawing surface.

And when I said you can change your finger I meant that you can precisely control how the tablet reacts to your finger. When finger painting you have no control over line weight etc. etc. which is why it's so sloppy.

But I think it's just another example of how we have been conditioned to think using something non-intuitive is more intuitive than truly intuitive tools and methods. Like how many people think using a keyboard and mouse is superior to drawing and touching as an input method. They have been conditioned to believe this but IMO it's wrong.

Agree wholeheartedly. I liked it so much that I bought a second one for my office computer.

When I think about back-typing, I think of it as a completely new form of typing. Using a standard keyboard requires a lot of visual and/or tactile feedback because it depends on the position of your fingers as they choose between 30-50 keys. But if the device is smart enough, back-typing would not depend on the position of your fingers, but would require nothing more than tapping in place.

Here's one possibility: 8 single fingers gives you 8 different symbols, but combinations of 8 fingers gives you as many as 256 different symbols! It would be fairly easy to come up with a set of taps that corresponds to all the standard keys. (This style of input is often called chording.) Thumbs will operate things like space, shift, delete and return. Especially in the learning process, a visual display will be important. I have no clear ideas about what this display would look like, but it could be rather small and out of the way since you don't have to touch it directly. In fact, it's mainly just reminding you which finger tap combinations activate which symbols. The main point is that the tactile feedback of individual keys just isn't necessary in this system. Indeed, once the system is mastered you could even turn off the display.

Yes, this would require learning. (And I don't doubt that a standard touch keyboard will also be available for those who don't want to master this skill.) But the thing is to see the potential of this form of typing. It would allow me to sit in my favorite chair and type! I could lay in bed and type! I could pace the house and type! Laptops are really very awkward unless you have a table in front of you, and even then they are imperfect. To hold a screen in your hands and type on it as fast as you can tap your fingers–that would be stunning!

Easy, rapid text input is an essential key to making a universally useful tablet. Let's face it, language is the medium of communication with each other and with computers. Inputting language into a device as easily and rapidly as possible is essential for most tasks. It's the one element that is so far missing from all tablet-style devices. If the iPad does not solve this problem it will still be an excellent all-purpose media-consuming device for print, video, music and gaming. But, if it does solve the text input problem it will replace laptops. Indeed, it could be the biggest computing revolution since the mouse.

true

i stand corected

the jets are on gotta go !!

GO JETS!!

j16 ind9

My finger is sensitive sure but what about the surface? The problem is still that the tip of my finger is a blunt instrument compared to a stylus (pen, pencil etc.). How would you're method account for pressure changes on the fly without having to change a "brush" setting in a control panel? Not to mention how would you see what you're drawing? How am I going to see a 6 pixel brush under my finger? Shifting the cursor point "off" from beneath the tip of the finger is hardly intuitive and in fact doesn't work well at all.

One of the problems of the touch interface is that you're fingers are covering the screen. A problem also evident with games in the Iphone and IPT.

What you're talking about doesn't seem that much different that what we already have on the iphone with a drawing Ap. Not a product for drawing.

I think people are going to expect to draw on this thing and it might put some off if it didn't. Again, a tablet or a slate without a stylus is kind of an oxymoron in my opinion and you can't really draw without an input device.

(Although if it works as a virtual input device for pro aps and "remote desktop" for desktops and/ or devices like ATV, in addition to the features already in an IPT then it would still be enough for me and probably most people.)

Do you really believe that brushes are inferior to our fingers just because we're talking about a "digital" brush? Many of the real world rules apply to the software world. Despite developers best efforts it seems quite impossible to recreate the experience of using a tool using touch and software only.

However, I may eat my hat if Apple came out with some way of drawing without touching the screen and "pressure sensitivity" measured by the distance of you're finger from the screen (or other method of similar kind). That would be different and I think that could work very well, as it addresses the issues above.

We've seen some patents in this vein but it seems the general consensus that technology isn't ready yet. Are you of a different opinion? Maybe you're like the rest of us and hoping for the best. LOL they have been conceptualizing on this thing for years and years.

It'll be great, but I don't think Apple is ready to give us "everything" in the first shot.

Love this crazy old thing and I love how it's got about an 17 degree tilt...



link to the wired article...

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/...le-tablet-1983

Don't you mean horn? Ooops!

Actually, your fingers wouldn't have to find the right keys potentially - once your fingers touch the back of the device, the tablet could recognise that as the "home" position (with the home keys directly under them). Thus it could then also tell when you were clicking closer towards the centre of the tablet or closer to the sides.

Further to this, they have patents to recognise thumb touches vs finger touches - similar technology might be able to be used to determine whether you're touching with a flat finger (like the middle row of the keyboard) or an extended finger or closer to your finger nail. Not sure how well it would work, but there are certainly differences in how my finger hits my keys in different rows now.

Lastly, in Uni I remember studying alternative keyboards very briefly. For scuba diving they'd been working on (in the 90s) a chord keyboard, so professional divers could type in a log with one hand. Some letters required a single key, others required 3 simultaneous keys. And iirc it was done without seeing the keyboard. So there are some new options out there, but something like this has a learning curve!


I thought Microsoft's concept video of a 2 sided touch screen worked something like that, but on a subsequent viewing I might have read to much into it. My thoughts were that the right side was your notepad, where notes were created. The left side was the reference material - websites, calendars, contacts, books whatever - any of which could be dragged (or cut and dragged) across into the notes.

If Apple wants to make combined interface with a Mac, I'd hope they come up with a much more basic tablet - preferably no battery, no SSD memory, designed to lay flat instead of be held, (and perhaps using the Mac processing power rather than have it's own chip)... plus the Mac screen should be touch as well. Basically, I don't see that as a good use of a portable Tablet.

No I meant corn

I've seen external keyboards with the crappy generic laptop trackpads. That's it. Nobody wants to innovate beyond the standard keyboard + mouse paradigm.

Making it better? There were MP3 players before the iPod, yet Apple perfected the product.

Which two statements that I made are contradictory?


What is it about a keyboard-mouse trackpad that wouldn't "just work" ?


Precisely. The technology to make a keyboard-mouse trackpad exists. Apple has the knowhow to perfect it. How do any of my statements contradict this?

All I'm saying is that up to this point, Apple has been unusually conservative with the technology that they've acquired from FingerWorks, at least in the desktop/laptop area.

I totally get what you are saying. Very interesting. I hadn't even thought of anything like that. For a writer it would be fantastic. walking thru the park just writing away.
Interesting. World news is depressing now, glad we got an Apple surprise to look forward to. This one is supposed to be their jaw-dropper. It's been polished on for what, 5 years??

It probably isn't designed to compete with high end input devices for precision artwork, but I bet you'll be able to do plenty.
I hope it does have the kind of input you describe. I will get one.
don't mind the learning at all, it's my favorite thing to do, to learn to use a new TOOL!!!!!

Palomine
waiting for the Apple electric car.

Spliff Monkey has the right idea: this thing needs to have a stylus.

Unlike Apple loyalists, who have already decided to buy this thing sight-unseen, the general population is going to be asking "What is this for?" before they put down their money.

If Apple answers on Wednesday that the Apple tablet is for listening to music, watching movies, reading books, and playing games with finger only input, I know a whole lot of people who are going to give this a pass.

A stylus is essential for students and artists, two groups who have a very good answer to the "What is it for?" question.

For students, a stylus is important for taking notes, drawing diagrams, writing equations, annotating textbooks, and other activities which didn't make sense on an iPhone, but are perfect for a tablet. Another article on AI says Apple is in talks with textbook publishers to bring textbooks to the tablet. That's great and all, but it's worthless for me and almost every other student I know if I can't mark them up. If Apple wants to gain market share back in the academic community, a stylus for this device is essential, I cannot stress that enough.

I know some people have advocated a stylus gesture where you write with a phantom pen. As someone who has used a dual pen/touch screen (Latitude XT) I can see several problems with this, including pressure sensitivity, pen angle, tip friction, etc. These are all things very important to writing on a tablet, which you just won't get from a phantom pen gesture.

Other people have mentioned third party stylus support, which is also a problem, since while writing most people lean their palms on the screen. If writing isn't supported by default, then there will be no build in palm rejection, and while writing the system will recognize the palm as an input.

My gut feeling is this will have no stylus, based on Jobs' previous comments about them. Whether we see some sort of alternative means of stylus input is another question, which I think would be new and innovative, but ultimately overkill just to avoid the "inelegance" of a stylus.

Youre kind of all over the place here. Not requiring a stylus to do most tasked doesnt not preclude an option for a stylus to be used for certain tasks bey certain people doing jobs.

Palm resting is not a concern. That was addressed a long ago. You can test it on MB trackpads.

Apple is in talks with textbook mfgs., is interested in medical input etc. OF course there will be a stylus you can use but it won't be required just to surf n stuff. Goin way out on a limb here? just wait and see what is unveiled. I'm not *just* an apple loyalist. Power user on Mac and PC, ok? I just like GOOD electronics. A stylus is a nobrainer, it will be available, trust me. You might need one, depending what you use the tablet FOR. Multitouch, though, will prove to be a godsend.


[QUOTE=ModernMech;1555720]Spliff Monkey has the right idea: this thing needs to have a stylus.

Unlike Apple loyalists, who have already decided to buy this thing sight-unseen, the general population is going to be asking "What is this for?" before they put down their money.

If Apple answers on Wednesday that the Apple tablet is for listening to music, watching movies, reading books, and playing games with finger only input, I know a whole lot of people who are going to give this a pass.

A stylus is essential for students and artists, two groups who have a very good answer to the "What is it for?" question.

For students, a stylus is important for taking notes, drawing diagrams, writing equations, annotating textbooks, and other activities which didn't make sense on an iPhone, but are perfect for a tablet. Another article on AI says Apple is in talks with textbook publishers to bring textbooks to the tablet. That's great and all, but it's worthless for me and almost every other student I know if I can't mark them up. If Apple wants to gain market share back in the academic community, a stylus for this device is essential, I cannot stress that enough.

[[snipped]]]

The way I envision using a tablet to write I could actually see it as an improvement over writing with a pen/pencil/stylus -- if we weren't conditioned to use a writing implement.

One of the problems with a writing implement is that when you hold it your hand and the tool obscure your view of where you are drawing or making your mark.

The tablet could provide a solution to this... because you could use your 2 fingers that you use to hold the pen and have them open.

In between your fingers when you touched the surface lines could be displayed showing something like a target symbol and it would show exactly where your mark was being made and you would have no obstruction from your hand and the pen.

I think this may be far more precise if you weren't conditioned to use a pen and paper so young kids introduced to this way of working may really excel with it.

Well if there is no stylus included it kind of sets the whole tone of the presentation on Wednesday. Apple will tell us that the device is for content consumption, rather than content creation. Sure you may be able to do that down the line if a third party decides they want to support it through note taking applications and drawing applications, but what Apple really wants is us to buy this thing to be patrons of their online music/video/book store.

I would welcome a stylus but I feel this thread has convinced itself the upcoming device must absolutely have one or be damned. There is no way this device will run cs4 and become a high end workstation substitute so I am not sure there will be a desperate need in that respect. There is nothing in a 'tabletized' version of iPhoto that can't be done with finger input and I suspect most apps will be designed for finger input. I used to work in high end audio film post production dubbing studios some 15 years back where all input was done through touch and I never heard a single mixer technician complain. I certainly don't subscribe to the idea that without a stylus Apple is signalling hat the device is intended solely for content consumption. You don't need a stylus to type and most graphical content creation requires powerful machines at any rate. I think the device will be aimed and content 'interaction', and as previously stated I have my doubts that a stylus will be included.

funny how this thread has attracted many stylus fans. not to criticize. i'm sure they work for you, and that's good.

but it is obsolete technology. Apple reinvents UI's, it does not do retro. no way it will try to bring th stylus back for the iThing.

time for the Smartpen. that is current technology.

Same here, especially because Jobs took extra steps to "yuuuch" the stylus in his first iPhone presentation.

Perhaps, when a finger and thumb are joined, a cursor comes up and hovers over the page, awaiting pressure on the surface to initiate touchdown:

http://cradleme.com/CradleMe/Pinch_Cursor.html

We've been drawing pictures with "pointy things" for about 30 thousand years now. I'm pretty sure it's not going away and in fact one might argue it's a technology that we've evolved with.

Smart pens only support the idea of a stylus with the tablet. Do you really think that a smart pen and a piece of paper should really outshine a tablet?

I don't believe that if the tablet doesn't have a stylus it will fail by any means but, it is kind of "essential" to the concept of a tablet in my opinion and it might hurt sales if it didn't, but then again maybe the extra cost of that feature would have hurt sales more.

Colorful splashes and sharp typewriter-style printing "Come see our latest creation" don't suggest any styli at all.

Let's not forget Compaq's first Tablet, the Compaq Concerto - circa 1993.

http://www.mvardon.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOcYltmPGZE

Ok, is it me... or do the specifications for Compaq's Concerto "convertible- notebook- tablet- sound vaguely familiar? I knew this product pretty well - I had the opportunity to work on the marketing campaign behind this products launch, back in the last millenium, 1993. Yes. Nineteen hundred ninety-three... 17 years ago.

I'm not sure whether this is too much for Apple to push onto the average user, but I remember the Microwriter AgendA from the late 80s/early 90s. It was a fairly typical (i.e. crap) little PDA at the time, but had a special chord keyboard so that you could type one handed.

Here's a link to the AgendA:
http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/d...writer-AgendA/

And here's how you typed on it (in some ways, maybe no harder than learning Graffiti on the Palm).
http://www.bellaire.demon.co.uk/bell...key_codes.html

I could see this working with a multi-touch area on the back (so you don't specifically have to locate your hands over some keys -- just hold the tablet how it's comfortable for you), and the front screen registering thumb touches. Your other hand (left or right, depending which way you swing) is then free to interact with the screen a la iPhone.

I remember Speak & Spell.