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Inside the multitouch FingerWorks tech in Apple's tablet - Page 2

post #41 of 162
1/23/10 at 2:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Yeah, he probably qualifies too (I say 'probably' because I've never personally interacted with him. Have you?).

He has that reputation for a reason, because it's true.

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post #42 of 162
1/23/10 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Wasn't there a reference recently to a multi-touch gesture that recognizes "forefinger and thumb pinched together" as text input? In the manner of holding a pen or pencil.

Casually trying that out on a flat surface feels much more natural than trying to "write" with just your forefinger, as in the case of signing on a POS device. If the surface I was doing that on gave me "ink" feedback to see what I was doing, I don't think it would be too bad. Of course, the real problem would be accurate handwriting recognition, but that would be just as true for a stylus.

Actually, playing around with that gesture, I'm suddenly convinced that Apple's tablet won't have a stylus, and will rely on the thumb/finger pinch thing to do stylus-like duties. It really doesn't feel less accurate and you could adjust line width in software (and possibly in mid-stroke with some adjacent gesture). The only downside that I can see is that a stylus tip lets you see the point of contact whereas your fingers obscure it, but I'm not sure how big a problem that really is.

It's not a multi-touch gesture, but Apple has had a patent for several years now that uses infra-red detection to recognise the orientation and shape of the users hands as they hover *near* the surface, before they touch it.

It's a bit sci-fi-ish, but in theory it's possible to tell if someone's hand is "making the pen gesture" and switch to virtual ink as a result, switching back when they change and poke it with their fingertips instead.

This could be an explanation for those comments about how you will have to "learn" stuff to make the thing work, as in you will have to learn what hand signals to make to let the thing know if you want to type or write/draw. It's pretty "out there" as an idea though and might not be possible yet. I'd like to see them try it, but it's easy to see how something like that could fail spectacularly also and then the tablet would *really* be Newton 2.0.

“There are more blowhards in tech and media than there are at a carnival.”  Bob Lefsetz

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“There are more blowhards in tech and media than there are at a carnival.”  Bob Lefsetz

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post #43 of 162
1/23/10 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

He has that reputation for a reason, because it's true.

Yeah, and I've heard that it takes one to know one.
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post #44 of 162
1/23/10 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Yeah, and I've heard that it takes one to know one.

You're a jerk.

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post #45 of 162
1/23/10 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Yeah, he probably qualifies too (I say 'probably' because I've never personally interacted with him. Have you?).

You mean, he would never interact with you....
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post #46 of 162
1/23/10 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Since typing, even on a virtual keyboard is always faster than writing, I have the feeling that Apple will leave the stylus out and just claim it's not necessary. The only people disappointed will be people who need to draw or sketch which is a small enough group that they might get away with it.

There are so many fields where that is not only wanted but required when using a tablet-like device. I dont expect it to be included with the tablet but I cant imagine it not being part of the OS and possibly even sold as an accessory from Apple from the start.
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post #47 of 162
1/23/10 at 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajay View Post

how long have you guys at AI have been toying around with the Apple Tablet (by whatever name it's known by)?

I started this thread on the 2nd July 2007.

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post #48 of 162
1/23/10 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Smartphone GPS has turned into a replay of the browser wars.

Antitrust issues?

Don't Garmin and TomTom use Navteq maps, owned by Nokia?

No, TomTom uses maps from TeleAtlas, a company they bought a couple of years ago.

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...723_084676.htm
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post #49 of 162
1/23/10 at 3:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

You're a jerk.

And, paradoxically, sometimes, you're distressingly obvious!
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post #50 of 162
1/23/10 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by a-maze View Post

No, TomTom uses maps from TeleAtlas, a company they bought a couple of years ago.

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...723_084676.htm

I wonder if there might be an 'anti-dumping' issue that Garmin/TomTom could bring up here with Nokia/Google giving it away for free. After all, it cannot cost zero to produce.
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post #51 of 162
1/23/10 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I started this thread on the 2nd July 2007.

And you are to be congratulated for that. Seriously. Prescient.
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post #52 of 162
1/23/10 at 3:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

And you are to be congratulated for that. Seriously. Prescient.

Thanks.

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post #53 of 162
1/23/10 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by a-maze View Post

No, TomTom uses maps from TeleAtlas, a company they bought a couple of years ago.

Google also use TeleAtlas maps outside of the US. Unsurprisingly, TeleAtlas (aka TomTom) refused to let Google offer free turn-by-turn navigation using their maps.
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post #54 of 162
1/23/10 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

And you are to be congratulated for that. Seriously. Prescient.

I would not agree since that was done 6 months after the iPhone was announced and a tablet is somewhere between a MB and an iPhone. We know that Apple had the Newton and the iPhone started out as a tablet device that never materialized.

I cant imagine that it would have anything resembling Mac OS X in the UI as depicted in the mockups and the survey eludes to Ireland thinking it would happen more than years ago, before the end of 2008. Plus, a lot of the design seems to be just a giant iPod (then iPhone) with Mac OS X shoehorned in it.

I do give him credit for his unwavering focus and desire for this tablet to emerge though it seems obvious that it would be happen at some point. I do think hes going to be very, very, very disappointed since most of his ideas have not evolved since those first mockups in 2007. Usually id wish someone luck on their ideal product, but with this I cannot as I think it would be a failed device in every single way.

(I hope that didnt come across too harshly, Ireland)
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post #55 of 162
1/23/10 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I would not agree since that was done 6 months after the iPhone was announced and a tablet is somewhere between a MB and an iPhone. We know that Apple had the Newton and the iPhone started out as a tablet device that never materialized.

I cant imagine that it would have anything resembling Mac OS X in the UI as depicted in the mockups and the survey eludes to Ireland thinking it would happen more than years ago, before the end of 2008. Plus, a lot of the design seems to be just a giant iPod (then iPhone) with Mac OS X shoehorned in it.

I do give him credit for his unwavering focus and desire for this tablet to emerge though it seems obvious that it would be happen at some point. I do think hes going to be very, very, very disappointed since most of his ideas have not evolved since those first mockups in 2007. Usually id wish someone luck on their ideal product, but with this I cannot as I think it would be a failed device in every single way.

(I hope that didnt come across too harshly, Ireland)

I was going to say something like that, with the additional caveat that, looking back at that thread, I was arguing strenuously for the inclusion of a hardware keyboard and I was obviously and completely wrong.

So on that: Ireland had me dead to rights, and his arguments that a "pure tablet" would be more Apple like have been borne out.

But, as Solipsism says, Ireland has also been singlemindedly focused on this device being a "Mac" running "OS X Touch" since day one, and that doesn't look to be happening (although of course it remains to be seen). Back then we couldn't have known the gravitational pull of the App Store, and how the opportunity to do media distribution might pull any Apple tablet device towards the iPhone ecosystem.

Also, I'm deducting points for the ongoing no-show of an Apple branded television or a DVD slot in the Apple TV.
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post #56 of 162
1/23/10 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I would not agree......
I do give him credit for his unwavering focus and desire for this tablet to emerge though it seems obvious that it would be happen at some point. I do think hes going to be very, very, very disappointed since most of his ideas have not evolved since those first mockups in 2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

I was going to say something like that, with the additional caveat that, ......

Ah, it will all be revealed in a few days, won't it. Can't wait.
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post #57 of 162
1/23/10 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

Yeah, he probably qualifies too (I say 'probably' because I've never personally interacted with him. Have you?).

I met Jobs and Gates at a show once. Shook both of their hands.
They were both incredibly pleasant people especially considering the fact that hundreds of us were crowding them.

Sadly, I eventually had to wash my hand.
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post #58 of 162
1/23/10 at 4:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

And you are to be congratulated for that. Seriously. Prescient.

Yup. Credit where it's due.

Now about that Magic Mouse . . .
http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyimages/1713.jpg
http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyimages/1685.jpg
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http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyimages/1713.jpg
http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyimages/1685.jpg
http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyimages/1704.gif
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post #59 of 162
1/23/10 at 5:02pm
Not to mention Verizon, AT&T et al with their subscription based services.

Google has opened a whole can of worms with free voice guidance on the Droid, to compete it has to be free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

I wonder if there might be an 'anti-dumping' issue that Garmin/TomTom could bring up here with Nokia/Google giving it away for free. After all, it cannot cost zero to produce.

"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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"The cobbler's children have no shoes", is a saying that applies a lot to companies who provide products and services. -KDarling on Google Search.

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post #60 of 162
1/23/10 at 5:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BC Kelly View Post

Interesting concept about a "vibrate/feeling" feedback from the Touch Screen, so can know where the fingers are without having to look - is what we typist do with the 'dots' on the F and J Keys so we can always find the "Home Row" - and since keyboards are of similar size/shape we're able to know where all the other keys are without having to look - again, same as the Piano

But that darn Touch Screen - all flat and glass, no 'dots' - how will that problem be solved ?

BC

The device may be able to detect the positions of all your fingers, wherever you place them on the touch surface. The device could then correctly interpret touches as corresponding key presses. It would not be required to always place your fingers in the same starting positions, as you would when using a typewriter or playing a piano. Tactile feedback would be unnecessary. Like Gazoobee posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post

Apple has had a patent for several years now that uses infra-red detection to recognise the orientation and shape of the users hands as they hover *near* the surface, before they touch it.
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post #61 of 162
1/23/10 at 5:12pm
I want one of those rear-projection Drafting multi-touch tables... :-(
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post #62 of 162
1/23/10 at 5:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post


Actually, playing around with that gesture, I'm suddenly convinced that Apple's tablet won't have a stylus, and will rely on the thumb/finger pinch thing to do stylus-like duties. It really doesn't feel less accurate and you could adjust line width in software (and possibly in mid-stroke with some adjacent gesture). The only downside that I can see is that a stylus tip lets you see the point of contact whereas your fingers obscure it, but I'm not sure how big a problem that really is.

But it is not real ink, is it? The screen can display what you are writing slightly to the left of your fingers, just as if there was an invisible pen in there. Simple
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post #63 of 162
1/23/10 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Patent filings suggest the possibility of a new interface that manipulates objects represented in a deep three dimensional space

But what if it had the option to be not only represented in 3D but to be seen actually in 3D. Displays exist that can send different images to each eye using the right polarised glasses, making it possible to see 3D on the screen. I just went to see Avatar 3D yesterday. Imagine if the screen had the option to change that setting, put your glasses on, and bang! 3D display.

That would be cool!
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post #64 of 162
1/23/10 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Quit being defensive fanboy.

1st) What am I defending?
2nd) I consider a fanboy to be somebody with a particular bias. And yet, your response has shown you to be the one with some sort of bias.
You're the fanboy.
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post #65 of 162
1/23/10 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post

(As an aside, it never ceases to surprise me how 'clever' and 'jerk' are often correlated characteristics!)

Because only clever people do what it takes to be successful, which often includes acts only done by jerks according to many. My best friend brother used to be the general manager for the consultant firm I worked for. He was one of the smartest persons I worked with and I really enjoyed working with him (learned a lot). However, 90% of the employees hated him because when he was assigned his GM position he fired all department heads and around 10% of the employees. In less than a year he turned around the firm and for the first time in 8 years the business turned profit. The profit continue to grow even after he left the firm two years ago after 7 years as GM.
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post #66 of 162
1/23/10 at 6:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Ive already started exercising my eye rolling in preparation of some posters crying foul on Apple for offering a stylus accessory despite the fact that the primary input for the tablet will be finger-based with the stylus being for select app features for particular users, like drawing diagrams in class.


Start workout: superior rectus muscle intorsion with left extorsion with right and 1 and 2 and 3 and, superior rectus muscle extorsion with right and intorsion with left and 1 and 2 and 3 and Also, do forget to drink plenty of fluids on Wednesday

I don't think we will see a physical stylus simply because if the issues trying to get it to work with a capacitive screen. Rather Apple will use the virtual stylus concept already seen in patents. If they can get it to work it ought to be fairly neat.


Dave
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post #67 of 162
1/23/10 at 6:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post

I don't think we will see a physical stylus simply because if the issues trying to get it to work with a capacitive screen.

I’m lost. Why wouldn’t a capacitance stylus not work as well as the capacitance in your fingers?

Quote:
Rather Apple will use the virtual stylus concept already seen in patents. If they can get it to work it ought to be fairly neat.

I don’t recall such a patent, just their patent for a actual capacitance stylus. Pogo Sketch from Ten One Designs looks pretty good. They even make some apps for the Mac, one of which I linked to earlier.

•

http://tenonedesign.com/sketch.php
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post #68 of 162
1/23/10 at 7:05pm
What if it weren't the tablet that did the tracking? Is there some way for the stylus to read it's position on screen and transmit the data back to the tablet? It would be a great way of making the stylus an tablet specific accessory. The "stylus" could easily take a reading for applied pressure so long as there would be some way of tracking it movements relative to the tablet it could work right?

The thing that gets me with the notion of a stylus, is that unless it's pressure sensitive then there is really little point to having one beyond signing you name of jotting a quick note. Even then, the reason our signatures look so retarded on touch screens is because they are not velocity/ angle/ pressure sensitive, so accuracy would improve greatly with a more "intelligent" stylus.

I think people are going to expect the tablet to work "like" even if not quite as well a Wacom Cintique if it has a stylus. I'd guess that unless Apple has innovated in in an unexpected way, I'm guessing we won't get one.

I hope we get a stylus though (at least as an option) because a "tablet" or a "slate" would be so much less appealing and pretty much an oxymoron without one. That's the only reason I think it could happen because otherwise it seems Apple is "touch happy".
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post #69 of 162
1/23/10 at 8:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Ive already started exercising my eye rolling in preparation of some posters crying foul on Apple for offering a stylus accessory despite the fact that the primary input for the tablet will be finger-based with the stylus being for select app features for particular users, like drawing diagrams in class.

I can see a stylus being offered as an optional accessory but I'm not convinced. It goes against the Apple Aesthetic. Not that I know that as a fact but its a gut feeling. If the device is primarily targeted at the family there will be no stylus in sight, of that I am sure. In fact I imagine that that one of the overriding design briefs was to create an interface which did not require anything but a finger or two to operate. I think signatures and sketches can be done quite successfully with the use of a single digit. Just takes a little getting used to. My two young kids do amazing detailed stuff on the iPhone with their fingers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

Do get me wrong, I see the need for it and want to see it, but you just don't know with Apple. Just look at the magic mouse, it's terrible.

What? The MM is amazing. What is so terrible about it? Its a beaut both functionally and aesthetically imo.
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post #70 of 162
1/23/10 at 8:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

On page 3 of 3: Steve Jobs kills the stylus.

The link to "Page 3", at the bottom of page 2 in the article, actually goes straight back to page 2.

The "continue" link works fine.

Quote:
Apple's new iPod used a mechanical scroll wheel which made navigating through its menus quick and easy. It was not very good at entering any large amount of text, but it did become a very popular way to pilot through large music collections.

The iPod wasn't very good at entering large amounts of text?
I didn't think it could do it AT ALL.

Quote:
In addition to helping users avoid RSI damage, touch sensitive input allows for a complex vocabulary of gestures, the input typing speed of a keyboard, the pointing accuracy of a mouse, and a customizable degree of complexity scaling from the needs of basic users to very advanced, specialized functionality.

Although the video of the fingerworks usage mentioned reduced RSI, they were talking about very specific applications.

I'd say Prince McLean is making a big jump to say that touch will avoid RSI damage and be as fast as a keyboard - unless it's very specific implementations.
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post #71 of 162
1/23/10 at 8:40pm
Damn, I thought we were getting an idea of where touch was going with the slate. Still interesting to read about the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

But there is a need for a stylus if this tablet is going to be marketed across the board, like I think it is. A stylus for signatures, drawing in many various situations, and even replicating the annotations that we do in textbooks with a simple stylus that can change from a highlighter, underliner, strikethougher(?), etc.

They do have a fairly recent patent for a capacitance stylus.

It's a pity they can't make a regular lead pencil work as a stylus.
The when I lose it, I can find another. (Plus it will work when writing on paper!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

Actually, playing around with that gesture, I'm suddenly convinced that Apple's tablet won't have a stylus, and will rely on the thumb/finger pinch thing to do stylus-like duties. It really doesn't feel less accurate and you could adjust line width in software (and possibly in mid-stroke with some adjacent gesture). The only downside that I can see is that a stylus tip lets you see the point of contact whereas your fingers obscure it, but I'm not sure how big a problem that really is.

That would be interesting, as long as it works well.
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post #72 of 162
1/23/10 at 8:56pm
What difference does it make whether a stylus is included or not. There are capacitive stylii that exist, and the iPhone touch screen doesn't even know the difference. Haven't any of you bought something from Apple recently with their new iPod Touch checkout system? You sign on the iPod!

No, it's not about the actual stylus that matters. It's whether Apple has taken the Newton handwriting recognition tech from the 90s and developed it even further such that it's really useful today. Plus, you'll want third party developers to be able to tap into that technology.

It's always important to think about the big picture for these kinds of things. A capacitive stylus is no different than your finger.
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post #73 of 162
1/23/10 at 9:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland View Post

I started this thread on the 2nd July 2007.

i'm not one to deny credit when it's due... that respectfully is yours for the poll & thread you refer to.

but still, what are the chances that someone here at AI has actually seen a working prototype?

not a mockup.

not a patent drawing or description.

not somebody's somebody who knows someone who has seen a blurrycam shot.

rather, someone at AI who has physically handled a prototype or pre-production model - preferably as close to 'working' as possible. if ever that is a possibility.

no disrespect or offense meant towards anyone. no sarcasm.

just an honest doubt.
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post #74 of 162
1/23/10 at 9:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Palm was able to deliver its own multitouch device in the Palm Pre just three years after the iPhone.

I enjoyed this article. However, your math is off. iPhone was released in June, 2007. The Palm Pre was released in June, 2009 -- two years later.
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post #75 of 162
1/23/10 at 9:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The hyped anticipation surrounding the Apple Event later this week is looking for clues....

So "hyped anticipation" can be doing something like looking for clues? Please AI, learn some English.
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post #76 of 162
1/23/10 at 10:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60 View Post

Smartphone GPS has turned into a replay of the browser wars.

Antitrust issues?

Don't Garmin and TomTom use Navteq maps, owned by Nokia?

TomTom bought and uses Tele Atlas, so no Nokia who bought their own navigation software.
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post #77 of 162
1/23/10 at 11:00pm
well, first the connecters. has to be the compatible with the iPhone connector to keep it simple. the report of two ports for easy landscape and portrait orientations makes sense. an optional dock that will make desktop usage easy makes lots of sense, like the good mock up here:

http://nexus404.com/Blog/2010/01/22/...-with-content/

bluetooth link with wireless Apple keyboard and MagicMouse in that setup would be great too - easy to use when at your desk.

for the touch UI, all the leaks (Apple routinely leaks to WSJ) consistently report it has more possibilities somehow than the iPhone's. so this has to be a big futuristic marketing feature of the new tablet. so adding a "retro" device like a stylus to the UI (in addition to bluetooth keyboard/mouse link) would really conflict with that message. so i don't think so.

but have you seen "smartpens" yet?

http://www.smartpenreviews.com/

to link these with a tablet via bluetooth would be really something new - and a lot more flexible, easy and simple to use than any screen-limited stylus could ever be.

so i bet that if the Tablet is going to have any "writing" input, this is what it will be - a "smartpen." perhaps even an ApplePen. now that would be a rabbit out of the hat!

long shot tho.
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post #78 of 162
1/24/10 at 12:01am
[CENTER]Lots of interesting stuff here, but...

Regardless of the input method of Apple's iPad, 3rd party developers will (no doubt) have any number of styli options available soon after its introduction for those seeking more exacting input.[/CENTER]
"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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"Why iPhone"... Hmmm?
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post #79 of 162
1/24/10 at 12:18am
MacJello ... awesome thinking ! I love that idea and can't wait for wednesday !

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacJello View Post

A couple weeks ago AppleInsider reported that some who had seen the tablet were claiming that we would be surprised by the input method. Others have suggested that the tablet will make extraordinary use of multi-touch. A week ago an AI post suggested that iphones may come with touch sensitive panels on the back cover. This article quotes Steve Jobs emphasizing that one of Apple's keys to success is introducing intuitive new interfaces.

Speculating and crossing fingers, I suggest that the key innovation in the iPad will be multi-touch back navigation, in particular "back-typing." The key problem with tablet computers up to this point is input method. You have to hold the tablet, and input data, at the same time. A stylus (while great for some purposes) is lousy for text input. Thumb typing is slow and awkward at best. Back-typing could solve the input problem, and completely change the character and usefulness of a tablet. If Apple can make it feel intuitive and easy, they will have a monumental success.

Pick up a smallish, thin hardback book (whatever size you think the iPad will be). Hold it between your palms. Amazingly all of your fingers are free to tap on the back of the book, while your thumbs are free to tap on the front. This does not work with an iPhone because it's too small. All we need now is a typing method that makes use of these freely tapping fingers. It will need to be a new method, probably one that does not require tapping in 26 different spots to choose letters, but there is no principled reason this can't be done. The thumbs could operate space and shift and choose between sets of letters, the fingers would merely tap. I'm convinced this could be at least as fast, and as natural, as standard typing.

I don't believe that Apple would introduce a device that didn't provide some truly unique hardware related property. This is the one I'm voting for.
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post #80 of 162
1/24/10 at 12:45am
Quote:
A couple weeks ago AppleInsider reported that some who had seen the tablet were claiming that we would be surprised by the input method.

Could someone find the EXACT wording on this?

Because I am thinking this might have been kind of a joke. The joke being that the irony is that the tablet ITSELF is how we will INPUT data into our primary PCs because the "tablet" is in fact a stealth future version of a FingerWorks keyboard that also doubles as a media tablet and drawing pad making something that was a complete luxury item into a bargain.
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